[WoW] Raiding: Naxxramas is the new Naxxramas

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  • InfestedGnomeInfestedGnome Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Are the horseman marks able to be resisted?

    InfestedGnome on
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  • AngryAngry Did you come here to kill Or did you come here to dieRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Charus wrote: »
    Fig-D wrote: »
    I'm still not 80, but one of the main tanks in my guild is currently thinking that we could do Archavon 25 with 15 people. I look forward to trying.

    The first time my guild tried Archavon 25, we did it with 18, with only like three of us being healers and about five of us being tanks. They've since buffed his HP by a lot, so your raid of 15 would need to do about 34,000 dps now to kill him before his enrage. This is still an achievable number, but you'd need your dps to be wearing a lot of 25-man gear to hit it.

    you definitely don't need any 25 man gear to kill 25man archavon. he's just so incredibly easy. your dps doesn't even need to average 2k dps a piece assuming you bring three healers and two tanks.

    shit, a prot paladin or feral druid tank will be putting out at least 1500 if not more themselves.

    Angry on
  • ToyDToyD Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    You know, reading through those changes. They made them... Normal Mobs with special abilities really. Original Naxx was RETARDED in what it required the raid to do.

    ToyD on
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  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Angry wrote: »
    Charus wrote: »
    Fig-D wrote: »
    I'm still not 80, but one of the main tanks in my guild is currently thinking that we could do Archavon 25 with 15 people. I look forward to trying.

    The first time my guild tried Archavon 25, we did it with 18, with only like three of us being healers and about five of us being tanks. They've since buffed his HP by a lot, so your raid of 15 would need to do about 34,000 dps now to kill him before his enrage. This is still an achievable number, but you'd need your dps to be wearing a lot of 25-man gear to hit it.

    you definitely don't need any 25 man gear to kill 25man archavon. he's just so incredibly easy. your dps doesn't even need to average 2k dps a piece assuming you bring three healers and two tanks.

    shit, a prot paladin or feral druid tank will be putting out at least 1500 if not more themselves.

    Yeah, after Archevon was buffed we did a quick raid of him with 19 people. Easily downed before the enrage. Raid was in a decent mix of levelling pieces, heroic pieces, and maybe one clear's worth of 10-man loot tops. Add 6 more into the mix and you have a ridiculously pushover boss.

    It was just plain silly before the buff, how easy he was.

    Dehumanized on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Are the horseman marks able to be resisted?

    No.

    and it would suck if they could, it'd throw the tank switching off entirely

    Dhalphir on
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Caster side marks can be resisted, but those are a lot less tricky to manage.

    End on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    The marks seem to have the same native chance to be fully resisted that most spells have, but you can't mitigate the damage by wearing resist gear.

    The casters at least also put up the marks infrequently enough that sometimes the stack will just fall off without a resist. It doesn't really matter either way; you just call the switch when one side has too many marks to continue.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Yeah, you're right, it's probably just miss chance. (And of course, racials count, gogo racials)

    End on
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  • InfestedGnomeInfestedGnome Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    My guild just did some more 10 man naxx today. We cleared the Militairy quarter without much problem and then killed Noth the Plaguebringer easily. But then we got to heigan. People were having problems with the fast lava movement part either due to lag or crappy computers or something. We did several attempts with the same people dying and then the rest of the raid wiped.

    Our solution? White smoke flares. The crappy ones from engineering. We placed them down in safe spots for each of the sections at the beginning, and then reapplied them when necessary. We had only 1 death then, and they quickly were battle rezzed and stayed up the rest of the fight. We downed him with no problem and were happy.

    I am kinda scared to go back to grobbulus though. Has anyone done him in a 10 man with a melee heavy group? All we have is a hunter and then all the rest is melee or healers.

    InfestedGnome on
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  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    ToyD wrote: »
    You know, reading through those changes. They made them... Normal Mobs with special abilities really. Original Naxx was RETARDED in what it required the raid to do.

    The original Naxx sounds awesome. The current 10 man Naxx is really dumbed down from reading Cryptonics list. Your tank can't kite, well who cares because we can just heal through it. People suck at dancing, whatever lets just 6 man the 25 man version, Loatheb is now all about spamming heals at X time instead of using your 1 cd well, and the fact that you can kill one of the 4 horseman without a switch is pathetic. I'm not adverse to making it easier so that people can complete it, but making it so screwing up has low to no consequences on some fights just strikes me as wrong as well as being able to brute force certain fights in pretty bad gear. I also believe that the application 4H marks can be resisted.

    khain on
  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    shadowane wrote: »
    That's not Sapphiron.


    Oh god damn... similar names mess with my head.

    initiatefailure on
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  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    My guild just did some more 10 man naxx today. We cleared the Militairy quarter without much problem and then killed Noth the Plaguebringer easily. But then we got to heigan. People were having problems with the fast lava movement part either due to lag or crappy computers or something. We did several attempts with the same people dying and then the rest of the raid wiped.

    Our solution? White smoke flares. The crappy ones from engineering. We placed them down in safe spots for each of the sections at the beginning, and then reapplied them when necessary. We had only 1 death then, and they quickly were battle rezzed and stayed up the rest of the fight. We downed him with no problem and were happy.

    I am kinda scared to go back to grobbulus though. Has anyone done him in a 10 man with a melee heavy group? All we have is a hunter and then all the rest is melee or healers.

    I've done it with 4 melee (5 counting offtank), no problems.

    Dehumanized on
  • InfestedGnomeInfestedGnome Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    My guild just did some more 10 man naxx today. We cleared the Militairy quarter without much problem and then killed Noth the Plaguebringer easily. But then we got to heigan. People were having problems with the fast lava movement part either due to lag or crappy computers or something. We did several attempts with the same people dying and then the rest of the raid wiped.

    Our solution? White smoke flares. The crappy ones from engineering. We placed them down in safe spots for each of the sections at the beginning, and then reapplied them when necessary. We had only 1 death then, and they quickly were battle rezzed and stayed up the rest of the fight. We downed him with no problem and were happy.

    I am kinda scared to go back to grobbulus though. Has anyone done him in a 10 man with a melee heavy group? All we have is a hunter and then all the rest is melee or healers.

    I've done it with 4 melee (5 counting offtank), no problems.

    did you just have 1 person dispel the injection? where did you have them run to? How did you keep up with the beserk mode

    InfestedGnome on
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  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    we never cleansed, and anyone who got the injection moved over near the tank.

    i'm guessing we kept up with berserk the same way we do anything else in wrath, more dps. i dunno i didn't pay much attention because the fight is kind of a pinata.

    Dehumanized on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    if you're melee heavy, have the tank kite Grobb leaving a bigger gap between each cloud that Grobb himself drops, so that melee just run al ittle way behind him to drop it

    Dhalphir on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    khain wrote: »
    ToyD wrote: »
    You know, reading through those changes. They made them... Normal Mobs with special abilities really. Original Naxx was RETARDED in what it required the raid to do.

    The original Naxx sounds awesome. The current 10 man Naxx is really dumbed down from reading Cryptonics list. Your tank can't kite, well who cares because we can just heal through it. People suck at dancing, whatever lets just 6 man the 25 man version, Loatheb is now all about spamming heals at X time instead of using your 1 cd well, and the fact that you can kill one of the 4 horseman without a switch is pathetic. I'm not adverse to making it easier so that people can complete it, but making it so screwing up has low to no consequences on some fights just strikes me as wrong as well as being able to brute force certain fights in pretty bad gear. I also believe that the application 4H marks can be resisted.

    The marks can be resisted, yes, but not through gear, just through base miss chance. So its not something you can rely on.
    Naxxramas in BC was tuned for ultra endgame guilds, similar to Sunwell was for BC. Naxxramas in Wrath is the beginning instance, and thus it is tuned for those with little to no raiding experiene.

    Basically, you're wrong.

    Dhalphir on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2008
    Naxx right now is Kara: The Next Generation

    Naxx then was Unforgiven as performed by 39 Clint Eastwoods and 1 Morgan Freeman.

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  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    ToyD wrote: »
    You know, reading through those changes. They made them... Normal Mobs with special abilities really. Original Naxx was RETARDED in what it required the raid to do.

    The original Naxx sounds awesome. The current 10 man Naxx is really dumbed down from reading Cryptonics list. Your tank can't kite, well who cares because we can just heal through it. People suck at dancing, whatever lets just 6 man the 25 man version, Loatheb is now all about spamming heals at X time instead of using your 1 cd well, and the fact that you can kill one of the 4 horseman without a switch is pathetic. I'm not adverse to making it easier so that people can complete it, but making it so screwing up has low to no consequences on some fights just strikes me as wrong as well as being able to brute force certain fights in pretty bad gear. I also believe that the application 4H marks can be resisted.

    The marks can be resisted, yes, but not through gear, just through base miss chance. So its not something you can rely on.
    Naxxramas in BC was tuned for ultra endgame guilds, similar to Sunwell was for BC. Naxxramas in Wrath is the beginning instance, and thus it is tuned for those with little to no raiding experiene.

    Basically, you're wrong.

    It being easier isn't the my problem, my problem is that that you can completely screw up and still beat the fight and I don't see how that teaches anyone anything other than some of Naxx is free loot. Naxx is suppose to be a entry raid instance so it should be easy, but the whole purpose of a entry raid should be to teach people about what to expect when raiding. Stuff that you can ignore in normal dungeons and heroics like that positioning matters and the need to pay attention to your surroundings as well as being able to work at a team. Also learning to control threat for dps and how to heal in different situations that don't really come up in a 5 man. The problem I have is that a lot of the changes to the fights removed these things. Prime examples are Noth being tauntable so the threat drop is irrelevant, Anub kiting being almost pointless, and the removal of SW on the 4H.

    khain on
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    khain wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    ToyD wrote: »
    You know, reading through those changes. They made them... Normal Mobs with special abilities really. Original Naxx was RETARDED in what it required the raid to do.

    The original Naxx sounds awesome. The current 10 man Naxx is really dumbed down from reading Cryptonics list. Your tank can't kite, well who cares because we can just heal through it. People suck at dancing, whatever lets just 6 man the 25 man version, Loatheb is now all about spamming heals at X time instead of using your 1 cd well, and the fact that you can kill one of the 4 horseman without a switch is pathetic. I'm not adverse to making it easier so that people can complete it, but making it so screwing up has low to no consequences on some fights just strikes me as wrong as well as being able to brute force certain fights in pretty bad gear. I also believe that the application 4H marks can be resisted.

    The marks can be resisted, yes, but not through gear, just through base miss chance. So its not something you can rely on.
    Naxxramas in BC was tuned for ultra endgame guilds, similar to Sunwell was for BC. Naxxramas in Wrath is the beginning instance, and thus it is tuned for those with little to no raiding experiene.

    Basically, you're wrong.

    It being easier isn't the my problem, my problem is that that you can completely screw up and still beat the fight and I don't see how that teaches anyone anything other than some of Naxx is free loot. Naxx is suppose to be a entry raid instance so it should be easy, but the whole purpose of a entry raid should be to teach people about what to expect when raiding. Stuff that you can ignore in normal dungeons and heroics like that positioning matters and the need to pay attention to your surroundings as well as being able to work at a team. Also learning to control threat for dps and how to heal in different situations that don't really come up in a 5 man. The problem I have is that a lot of the changes to the fights removed these things. Prime examples are Noth being tauntable so the threat drop is irrelevant, Anub kiting being almost pointless, and the removal of SW on the 4H.

    No, you can completely screw up and provided you have a decent amount of improvisation ability and skill you can kill the boss.

    Sure, if your tank is nub, you can get away without kiting Anub

    But only if your healers aren't equally unskilled.

    Dhalphir on
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    xzzy wrote: »
    Matters when talking about pug organization, definitely. But new content is just plain easier than BC stuff, too.

    Good, because 95% of us aren't server-first-hungry powerraiders.

    I understand the whole wanting a challenge thing, I've been there, but putting in content a majority of players will never get to see has to be bad business.

    Majority of players don't deserve to complete normal dungeon runs (and can't without outgearing them severely). They should be wearing rep blues and epics, and green gear, like their skill level dictates.

    You are the one who brought up vanilla, specifically the world dragon endeavors.

    So you're going to have to do a real fuckin lot to convince me that MC and BWL had a single fight with difficult mechanics. The entire difficulty from the first two tiers came from the amount of people you had in your raid knowing jack-all of what to do. This includes the world dragons.

    As for Kara? Are you going to actually argue that Kara has difficult mechanics?

    Molten Core was considered difficult long before I ever ran it. I"m pretty sure you beat BWL before I did.

    I'm talking mainly about aq40/naxx when I talk about vanilla content.

    And yes, kara in blues wasn't easy. Yes, it was doable, and my guild did it, but you could wipe at any time from sudden damage spikes or stupid mistakes.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    shadowane wrote: »
    That's not Sapphiron.

    Yeahhhhh... I'm not smart... similar names beat me this round

    initiatefailure on
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  • xzzyxzzy Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    xzzy wrote: »
    Matters when talking about pug organization, definitely. But new content is just plain easier than BC stuff, too.

    Good, because 95% of us aren't server-first-hungry powerraiders.

    I understand the whole wanting a challenge thing, I've been there, but putting in content a majority of players will never get to see has to be bad business.

    Majority of players don't deserve to complete normal dungeon runs (and can't without outgearing them severely). They should be wearing rep blues and epics, and green gear, like their skill level dictates.

    Cool, why are you talking about gear? I know I wasn't.

    I just think it's nice that raiding isn't a perfection-or-die situation right now. I hope it's a trend.

    xzzy on
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    xzzy wrote: »
    xzzy wrote: »
    Matters when talking about pug organization, definitely. But new content is just plain easier than BC stuff, too.

    Good, because 95% of us aren't server-first-hungry powerraiders.

    I understand the whole wanting a challenge thing, I've been there, but putting in content a majority of players will never get to see has to be bad business.

    Majority of players don't deserve to complete normal dungeon runs (and can't without outgearing them severely). They should be wearing rep blues and epics, and green gear, like their skill level dictates.

    Cool, why are you talking about gear? I know I wasn't.

    I just think it's nice that raiding isn't a perfection-or-die situation right now. I hope it's a trend.

    The only fun thing about raiding is the challenge.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2008
    Naxx right now is Kara: The Next Generation
    Naxx is easier than Kara. Mostly because the instance is like a Special Edition remake.

    You also couldn't get away with raining AoE upon the heads of trash your first week of Kara.

    Sterica on
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  • xzzyxzzy Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    xzzy wrote: »
    xzzy wrote: »
    Matters when talking about pug organization, definitely. But new content is just plain easier than BC stuff, too.

    Good, because 95% of us aren't server-first-hungry powerraiders.

    I understand the whole wanting a challenge thing, I've been there, but putting in content a majority of players will never get to see has to be bad business.

    Majority of players don't deserve to complete normal dungeon runs (and can't without outgearing them severely). They should be wearing rep blues and epics, and green gear, like their skill level dictates.

    Cool, why are you talking about gear? I know I wasn't.

    I just think it's nice that raiding isn't a perfection-or-die situation right now. I hope it's a trend.

    The only fun thing about raiding is the challenge.
    Too bad the "challenge" was tuned so precisely that only a handful of guilds on each server could make any progress in them. How is that good for Blizzard's bottom line?

    "Here you go guys, we're going to put in one or two 25 man instances in per year, but it's going to be 6 months before we start detuning fights so you common folk can actually play in them."

    Challenge is cool. I just don't think they should set the bar beyond the reach of an average player.

    xzzy on
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    xzzy wrote: »
    xzzy wrote: »
    xzzy wrote: »
    Matters when talking about pug organization, definitely. But new content is just plain easier than BC stuff, too.

    Good, because 95% of us aren't server-first-hungry powerraiders.

    I understand the whole wanting a challenge thing, I've been there, but putting in content a majority of players will never get to see has to be bad business.

    Majority of players don't deserve to complete normal dungeon runs (and can't without outgearing them severely). They should be wearing rep blues and epics, and green gear, like their skill level dictates.

    Cool, why are you talking about gear? I know I wasn't.

    I just think it's nice that raiding isn't a perfection-or-die situation right now. I hope it's a trend.

    The only fun thing about raiding is the challenge.
    Too bad the "challenge" was tuned so precisely that only a handful of guilds on each server could make any progress in them. How is that good for Blizzard's bottom line?
    r.

    Very good. WoW is one of the most profitable video games in history. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • JJJJ DailyStormer Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    The only fun thing about raiding is having your Eastern European raid leader yell at you as you grind your face on a single boss encounter for 3 hours in a single night.

    JJ on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2008
    The only fun thing about raiding is the challenge.
    You must always make the game accessible. Always. If the game cuts itself off to fresh meat, it'll rot and die. Kara was not the best way to do an intro raid (attunement required for the whole raid, harsh gear checks, etc.). Naxx in Wrath is near perfect, however. You have wings, which offer clear goals and clean breaks for the next night. It offers a wide variety of fights (dps checks, movement based stuff, phases) without being too harsh.

    I do feel that Naxx should require more Heroic gear, however. It feels like Heroics are the new normal-mode for level cap, and I cannot think of any good reason to do normal beyond a desperate need to get that last bit of rep. It's also nice knowing that I'm done raiding after two nights. By the time Uludar comes out, I'll have little-to-no need for any of the content out right now, and so I can maintain that lowered dedication even in the future.

    The problem is when we have nothing else to do. PvP is clearly on the backburner, and I want to see that any involved with PvP gear has their resilience capped at whatever the shitty crafted sets are.

    Sterica on
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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2008
    Very good. WoW is one of the most profitable video games in history. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
    WoW is successful because of the accessibility of leveling, questing and so forth. Not hardcore raiding that small percentages have done.

    Your post is retarded and you should feel retarded.

    Sterica on
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  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Very good. WoW is one of the most profitable video games in history. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
    WoW is successful because of the accessibility of leveling, questing and so forth. Not hardcore raiding that small percentages have done.

    Your post is retarded and you should feel retarded.

    WoW for each of its expansions has been out long enough that people would easily have run out of content and yet it still seems to post record breaking numbers.

    khain on
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Very good. WoW is one of the most profitable video games in history. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
    WoW is successful because of the accessibility of leveling, questing and so forth. Not hardcore raiding that small percentages have done.

    Your post is retarded and you should feel retarded.

    So why didn't everyone jump ship in vanilla when they capped out at BWL, the end of tank and spank content? They didn't because making challenging raid content is a good thing not a fucking bad thing.

    Fuck your "heroic" dungeons that you can do without effort.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2008
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Very good. WoW is one of the most profitable video games in history. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
    WoW is successful because of the accessibility of leveling, questing and so forth. Not hardcore raiding that small percentages have done.

    Your post is retarded and you should feel retarded.
    So why didn't everyone jump ship in vanilla when they capped out at BWL, the end of tank and spank content? They didn't because making challenging raid content is a good thing not a fucking bad thing.
    That's why they are patching in harder raids. It's this progression thing: shit starts easy and gets harder.

    Nobody has said that hard raids are a bad thing. Raids starting out that way do. See just about every raid in TBC. Just about all of it was retuned at some point.

    Seriously, try eating potato chips. They taste better than the paint ones.

    Sterica on
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  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Very good. WoW is one of the most profitable video games in history. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
    WoW is successful because of the accessibility of leveling, questing and so forth. Not hardcore raiding that small percentages have done.

    Your post is retarded and you should feel retarded.
    So why didn't everyone jump ship in vanilla when they capped out at BWL, the end of tank and spank content? They didn't because making challenging raid content is a good thing not a fucking bad thing.
    That's why they are patching in harder raids. It's this progression thing: shit starts easy and gets harder.

    Nobody has said that hard raids are a bad thing. Raids starting out that way do. See just about every raid in TBC. Just about all of it was retuned at some point.

    Seriously, try eating potato chips. They taste better than the paint ones.

    The only bad thing about TBC raiding was that there were only 2 10 mans. The difficulty was just right. You make it hard first, then you nerf it later. Thats how Blizzard's policy has been, and its been good.

    And "hard" is kind of exaggerating. Neither TBC heroics or kara were really that hard. They just were so you couldn't doze off if you had blue gear.

    Stupid people should stick to whining about other classes being overpowered on the official forums and losing in battlegrounds. They shouldn't have dungeons designed with them in mind.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Very good. WoW is one of the most profitable video games in history. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
    WoW is successful because of the accessibility of leveling, questing and so forth. Not hardcore raiding that small percentages have done.

    Your post is retarded and you should feel retarded.
    So why didn't everyone jump ship in vanilla when they capped out at BWL, the end of tank and spank content? They didn't because making challenging raid content is a good thing not a fucking bad thing.
    That's why they are patching in harder raids. It's this progression thing: shit starts easy and gets harder.

    Nobody has said that hard raids are a bad thing. Raids starting out that way do. See just about every raid in TBC. Just about all of it was retuned at some point.

    Seriously, try eating potato chips. They taste better than the paint ones.

    Maybe I'm mistaken, but I remember MC being regarded as pretty hard to start with, same with BWL and Kara/Gruul were harder than Naxx is. Blizzard's policy has almost always been release content that is extremely hard and then gradually nerf it to allow more guilds to progress.

    khain on
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    khain wrote: »
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Very good. WoW is one of the most profitable video games in history. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.
    WoW is successful because of the accessibility of leveling, questing and so forth. Not hardcore raiding that small percentages have done.

    Your post is retarded and you should feel retarded.
    So why didn't everyone jump ship in vanilla when they capped out at BWL, the end of tank and spank content? They didn't because making challenging raid content is a good thing not a fucking bad thing.
    That's why they are patching in harder raids. It's this progression thing: shit starts easy and gets harder.

    Nobody has said that hard raids are a bad thing. Raids starting out that way do. See just about every raid in TBC. Just about all of it was retuned at some point.

    Seriously, try eating potato chips. They taste better than the paint ones.

    Maybe I'm mistaken, but I remember MC being regarded as pretty hard to start with, same with BWL and Kara/Gruul were harder than Naxx is. Blizzard's policy has almost always been release content that is extremely hard and then gradually nerf it to allow more guilds to progress.

    Exactly! People who like hard instances get a chance to have fun progessing in difficult content (not talking about server first progression or anything, just guild progression). Incompetent people wait a bit, then get to do the same content.

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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2008
    The only bad thing about TBC raiding was that there were only 2 10 mans. The difficulty was just right. You make it hard first, then you nerf it later. Thats how Blizzard's policy has been, and its been good.

    And "hard" is kind of exagerrating. Neither TBC heroics or kara were really that hard. They just were so you couldn't doze off if you had blue gear.
    You're taking a self-centered look at this.

    No, Kara wasn't hard to me. Nor to you. We had the place on farm pretty quickly. But I also did all of MC and BWL, a good chunk of AQ40, and was starting Naxx before the TBC release date really killed people's desires to raid. I, we, had raiding experience. And if you were like me, you knew the people you ran with and thus were pretty much a well-oiled machine.

    You need a starting point for people foreign to this process. Five-mans have this with normal modes that they actually experience via leveling. Heroic mode ups the ante and requires proper spec and gear for less skilled players. To go from that and beat your head against difficult encounters is just shitty design. You start easy and work up from there.

    Starting hard and nerfing it just pisses people off. The old raiders are pissed that their hard work got nerfed and is now being run through by idiots. And the new raiders might not even BE raiders because they gave up on that shit months ago. If they are still around, it still sucks the wind out of your accomplishment.

    No question, Blizzard has to take the train wreck that was TBC Patch timing and speed it the fuck up. If we don't get 3.1 in January, it's going to upset a lot more people since more people will be raiding.

    Sterica on
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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2008
    khain wrote: »
    Maybe I'm mistaken, but I remember MC being regarded as pretty hard to start with, same with BWL and Kara/Gruul were harder than Naxx is. Blizzard's policy has almost always been release content that is extremely hard and then gradually nerf it to allow more guilds to progress.
    And they changed this policy with Naxx. It's much more logical, as it caters to more people and you will still have Naxx/Sunwell shit down the road that people can crow about beating.

    Achievements also offer potential for creating a challenge within easy content. I don't think they really pulled it off this time, but hopefully 3.1 will have some really hard optional stuff.

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    khain wrote: »
    Blizzard's policy has almost always been release content that is extremely buggy or overtuned then gradually nerf it to allow more guilds to progress.

    If ulduar and icecrown are still this easy, I will not be a happy camper. But, they won't be. All this talk about how easy naxx is completely ignores the fact that malygos is a lot tougher than any fight in there, and I think it's indicative of the idea that we'll see difficulty ramp up as time goes by.

    Also, there's pretty difficult raid content in the game right now. Naxx not hard enough for you? Fine, work on the undying achievement, or clear it with 21 people. Go do sartharion with drakes up.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2008
    MC was about as much of a faceroll as you could get. The only 'difficult' part of it was the gear check. That's it.

    BWL was also absurdly simple. The most difficult fights in there were just glorified gear checks. Razorgore was interesting, but all it took was a couple of good kiters and BOOM! problem solved.

    I prefer to look at the mechanics of a fight first and foremost. I really hate gearcheck bosses (way too many of these have come and gone). As such, I don't see why there would be any cause for alarm that a group of reasonably intelligent people can quickly clear the starter raid instance while wearing starter gear.

    The worst part is, BLIZZARD LEFT THE CHALLENGE IN AND PEOPLE ARE STILL BITCHING! Just look at all those achievements. The 'hard mode' of keeping three drakes up (and 10 man is supposed to be harder than 25 man in that regard).

    This is the part where you try to argue that there was a better challenge in opener BC and vanilla raiding than keeping the three drakes up in 10 man, then stop yourself because you realize the hole you've dug.

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  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    MC was about as much of a faceroll as you could get. The only 'difficult' part of it was the gear check. That's it.

    BWL was also absurdly simple. The most difficult fights in there were just glorified gear checks. Razorgore was interesting, but all it took was a couple of good kiters and BOOM! problem solved.

    I prefer to look at the mechanics of a fight first and foremost. I really hate gearcheck bosses (way too many of these have come and gone). As such, I don't see why there would be any cause for alarm that a group of reasonably intelligent people can quickly clear the starter raid instance while wearing starter gear.

    The worst part is, BLIZZARD LEFT THE CHALLENGE IN AND PEOPLE ARE STILL BITCHING! Just look at all those achievements. The 'hard mode' of keeping three drakes up (and 10 man is supposed to be harder than 25 man in that regard).

    This is the part where you try to argue that there was a better challenge in opener BC and vanilla raiding than keeping the three drakes up in 10 man, then stop yourself because you realize the hole you've dug.

    Sure, you could do your own "achievements" in old content, like tanking with non tank classes on some bosses.

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This discussion has been closed.