Warhammer 40k - Such is the Emperor's will.

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  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Veteran squads might be better if you want a unit with good accuracy. Only a point more and they get an actual BS4 with better overall leadership and more special weapons.

    Utsanomiko on
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  • Anime OwnsAnime Owns Registered User
    edited March 2007
    TheBog wrote: »
    That list has a mindboggling-ly low amount of heavy weapons, Gigglio. It just won't do. It just won't. 3 lascannons in 1500 points? No plasma? No deal.

    To be honest, I was trying to make the best Tyranid fighting force I could using as many guardsmen as I could. I mean, 12 missile launchers in 1500 points? 12 grenade launchers? That such a stupid amount of templates being shot. And plasma is only necessary against MEQ armies. Just think about the number of lasguns there are..no one is going to pass that many save checks.

    Also, lascannons (in guard at least) are overrated. I'm gonna miss half the time anyway.

    And I don't think you could have more heavy weapons than that (in 1500 pts, at least).

    Anime Owns on
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Right, and you can infiltrate veterans, and give them warrior weapons for free, which are also nice.

    I honestly wouldn't have a non-vanilla IG army without veterans doctrine and 2 or 3 squads.


    Consider some of the things you can do with veterans:


    Anti-CC unit:


    Jungle Fighters Doctrine

    Flamer x3
    Heavy Flamer x1
    Power Fist/bolt pistol Sergeant
    5 lp/ccw

    4 autohit templates, one of which is at str 5.




    Anti-MEQ/Terminator "lets all blow ourselves up" unit:


    Plasma gun x3
    Plasma pistol/ccw sergeant
    6 lasguns
    7 plasma shots per turn at 12" while moving, and infiltrate.



    Crazy suicide anti-tank unit:

    Melta gun x3
    Sergeant with melta bombs
    6 lasguns

    4 s8 2d6 attacks on a charge


    Mobile 24" Fire support unit:

    Grenade launcher x3
    Sergeant with storm bolter
    6 lasguns


    3 AP 4 S6 shots, 2 AP5 S4 shots, at 24", while moving, with an option for 3 blast templates





    All of these cost only around 120pts with 10 veterans, which is a steal considering you're looking at a cost of 100 points for sharpshooters, a plasma gun, a vet sergeant, and a heavy weapon on a normal squad.


    Plus if you take grenadiers as well it's not like you're losing any useful elite options anyway.

    Jealous Deva on
  • AthaedosAthaedos Registered User
    edited March 2007
    Thanks for the comments. Just finished priming some terrain and ruins, gonna call it good for the day :).

    PREPARE FOR GLORY!
    54710297pk9.jpg
    Couldn't resist.

    What would people recommend attaching to my powerfist/power sword commander squad-wise? Just veterans or something?

    Also, I've heard that now Deathwing terminator squads can only have one heavy weapon or something, so does that mean my squad of five with two assault cannons will have to remove one of the cannons if I want to use them?

    Athaedos on
  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Yeah, only one heavy, and Tac squads come with a sergeant plus four or nine regular Marines, but they can be split into two separate 5-man units.

    You could put the Commander with vets or a command squad, ideally.

    Utsanomiko on
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  • AthaedosAthaedos Registered User
    edited March 2007
    So would I be ok doing this for a troops choice?

    6 models total, 4 normal marines, one with a plasma cannon, one a vetran seargent.


    (or would I have to remove one of the normal marines? And I get what you're saying about squads but I'd prefer a small amount of tac marines and more specialized units in my army)

    Athaedos on
  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    It's just five or ten in a squad, five's a basic Combat squad (with a special weapon option), ten is a full Tactical squad (which can then additionally take a heavy weapon). This applies to Assault, Dev, Scouts, and bikes (vets can split into two units as well, but they can be between 5 to 10 Marines in number).

    Utsanomiko on
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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    If it were me, I'd use him as a sergeant with terminator honors of your command squad. Not because it's not a good model, it's an excellent model, but because a power fist will get an independant character killed quite easilly and is much more suited for someone with access to ablative wounds. So I'd have him be the right hand man of a equally awesome chaplain with crozius or commander with 2 lightning claws :).

    Jealous Deva on
  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Well, with power sword he could chose which to use as his main attack, I believe. If he's assaulting a lot of weak enemies he can hit at I4 with the powersword or use the fist when he's more concerned with doing S8 damage than hitting first. Either way it'd be a bit pricey but ensure 5 armor-ignoring attacks on the charge.

    Utsanomiko on
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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Oh, you're right, I wasn't aware you could switch off like that.

    The PW+PF combo will be ok then.

    Jealous Deva on
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Doesn't he have a pistol anyway?

    Or do DA character models not get that?

    Der Waffle Mous on
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  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Yeah, they all get pistols and grenades standard now. Had to check the book to confirm, but that includes Commanders, Librarians, and Chaplains.

    Man, I need to finish reading that Codex. So much stuff to digest, it's like one of those big sub sandwiches you have to put down and take a break on.

    Utsanomiko on
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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Wait, so does that mean that a veteran techmarine with a power weapon/ccw and servo harness can take all 6 of his attacks on a charge as power weapon shots? Because that would greatly improve my opinion of techmarines.

    Jealous Deva on
  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Wait, so does that mean that a veteran techmarine with a power weapon/ccw and servo harness can take all 6 of his attacks on a charge as power weapon shots? Because that would greatly improve my opinion of techmarines.

    I'd have to look into it further, but would wager the servo harness attacks count separate from the 4 PW attacks on the charge, since they're specificaly listed in the harness entry that way, rather than "arms do S8 I1, gives techmarine +2 attacks." But I'm mostly going from memory here of rereading the rulebook when I wanted to determine how attacks were resolved with multiple weapon types on a model.

    Utsanomiko on
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  • AthaedosAthaedos Registered User
    edited March 2007
    I wasn't aware that my custom Grand Master came 'standard' with a pistol... Does that mean it's included in the base point cost of 80 points? I'm using the old DA codex so correct me if it's changed. If so, I guess I should slap one on his belt or something :P.

    Anyways, here's his gear list. Keep in mind this is mainly so beefed up so I can get to 500 points without too many models just for an army to learn how to play with.

    base cost of Grand Master - 80
    Purity Seals - 5
    Power Fist - 25
    Frag/Krak Grenades - 3
    Master crafted power weapon (sword) - 30
    Artificer Armor - 20

    Point total = 163
    I was also thinking of having his sword be the sword of secrets (40 points, making the point total 173), but that might be a little weird with a power fist there too? And can he have artificer armor if he has a command squad?

    Athaedos on
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Well, the servo arm is listed as "Grants the user an additional close combat attack, counting as a power fist".
    The harness entry merely states that it grants an additional servo harness, with an additional close combat attack.


    The faq/errata says nothing more on this issue, but does state that "the plasma pistol on the servo harness counts as an additional weapon for granting an attack in close combat" which confuses me even more.

    Jealous Deva on
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    He can have artificer armor and still have a command squad.

    Bolt pistol comes included in the cost of all DA.

    Not sure about the sword of secrets, but unless it's specifically mentioned as being two handed then he can use it with a power fist.

    Jealous Deva on
  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    If that's what it says on Techmarines, then I guess they simply do count as additional attacks, and that the plasma pistol ensures they get +1 for having 2 CC weapons (since they can carry bolters by default).
    Athaedos wrote: »
    I wasn't aware that my custom Grand Master came 'standard' with a pistol...
    Does that mean it's included in the base point cost of 80 points? I'm using the old DA codex so correct me if it's changed. If so, I guess I should slap one on his belt or something :P.

    Anyways, here's his gear list. Keep in mind this is mainly so beefed up so I can get to 500 points without too many models just for an army to learn how to play with.

    base cost of Grand Master - 80
    Purity Seals - 5
    Power Fist - 25
    Frag/Krak Grenades - 3
    Master crafted power weapon (sword) - 30
    Artificer Armor - 20

    Point total = 163
    I was also thinking of having his sword be the sword of secrets (40 points, making the point total 173), but that might be a little weird with a power fist there too? And can he have artificer armor if he has a command squad?

    A lot has changed this edition, duder. They're 100pts by default, count as having Iron Halos, frag and krak grenades, as well as a pistol. The only other options available to Commanders you've listed is the Power weapon and Fist, bringing him to 140pts.


    You really only need to add a pistol to the model if you want to; since it comes as standard equipment, the only players who are going to insist WYSIWYG trumps the army entry in this care are pillow fuckers.

    Utsanomiko on
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  • AthaedosAthaedos Registered User
    edited March 2007
    lol, I almost want to put a bolt pistol in his power fist. Anyways, so what you were saying earlier is that my 6 man unit of marines (one veteran sergeant one plasma cannon holder) would NOT work. I would have to remove one of the marines so it was a 5-man unit, and replace the plasma cannon with whatever 'special weapon' a combat squad can have?

    All I'm trying to do is use as few plain marines as possible, really. Scouts w/ snipers will be an option later, but not now.

    Also, I'll pick up the new codexes tomorrow -_-.

    Athaedos on
  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Athaedos wrote: »
    lAnyways, so what you were saying earlier is that my 6 man unit of marines (one veteran sergeant one plasma cannon holder) would NOT work. I would have to remove one of the marines so it was a 5-man unit, and replace the plasma cannon with whatever 'special weapon' a combat squad can have?

    Yes. Only a full ten-Marine Tactical squad can have heavy weapons. The 5-man squads are technicaly just combat squads and only have access to special weapons: plasma gun, melta gun, or flamer.

    Utsanomiko on
    hmm.gif
  • AthaedosAthaedos Registered User
    edited March 2007
    Thanks for enlightening my nubness :).
    The 5-man combat squads can still have a veteran sergeant though, right?
    Assuming they can, what I'll probably do is have two of those and then a devastators squad.

    Wait a minute I think I still have this all wrong. Is it possible to have two troops choices with only 10 marines, two of them being sergeants, or are the combat squads you're talking about simply a devision of the 10-man tactical squad which cannot be reduced in number (or must loose it's heavy weapon)?

    Athaedos on
  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    It's much more simple than your nub-math. :P

    A squad is a Vet Sgt + 4 Marines. That's how it's purchased as standard for the Troop unit. As an upgrade it can add another 5 to boost it to a full squad. A full squad can be deployed as two units of five, which count as separate units for scoring and holding ground.

    It can be left as simply a combat squad of 5 guys. It can be upgraded into a full Tactical/Devestator squad of 10. It can be fielded as one unit or two separate ones.

    Utsanomiko on
    hmm.gif
  • AthaedosAthaedos Registered User
    edited March 2007
    Thanks again :P, so it looks like what I'll do is have a full 10-man tactical squad with a plasma cannon and veteran sergeant, and then for my second troops choice I'll just do a scout sniper squad or perhaps 5-man space marine squad. Off to bed for tonight.

    Athaedos on
  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Also, your commander dude can't have both a power weapon and a power fist. Both replace his default chainsword and you can't replace the same weapon twice. Also, master-crafting has disappeared from the list completely.

    Mr_Rose on
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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    That would be exactly the opposite of how every army codex has worked since 3rd ed.


    If the entry specifically says "The commander may exchange his chainsword for a power weapon at +X points or power fist for +Y points" then you're right, if it just says "the commander can be given any equipment from the space marine armory" then that literally means he can be given any equipment from the space marine armory, you could in theory buy 5 power fists for the same character, which would be fairly dumb as you could obviously only use 2 of those as weapons, but you could do it if you wanted.

    Edit: Or actually well you couldn't specifically with space marines because their army entry specifically states "up to two weapons from the armory", but you get the point. Is there a DA codex rule specifically indicating that you can't upgrade the default bolt pistol to a power fist or power weapon?

    Jealous Deva on
  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    There is no armoury in the DA Codex.
    You can replace his bolt pistol with a plasma and you have the following options to replace his chainsword: Power sword, power fist/lightning claw, pair of lightning claws/thunder hammer.
    You can also add (without replacing anything) a combi-weapon/stormbolter and/or meltabombs and/or jump pack. That's it.
    No MC, no purity seals, nada.

    Mr_Rose on
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  • Sharp101Sharp101 TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Thats lame.

    Sharp101 on
  • ElderCatElderCat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited March 2007
    Legoman05 wrote: »
    Alright, the list at present: (I did other stuff this afternoon, it didn't take me this long to get it together)

    Your points are a bit off, SM min cost for a squad is 75 points.
    A Dread's Default weaponry is exactly what you want against nids, but be mindful you cannot take one in combat patrol.

    Captain, with Bolter: 70

    Dreadnought :105
    Assault Cannon
    DCC plus Storm Bolter

    Marine Unit 1: 80 pts
    Sergeant, with bolter
    4 Marines
    - 1 Heavy Bolter

    Marine Unit 2: 80 pts
    Sergeant, with bolter
    4 Marines
    - 1 Heavy Bolter

    total: 335 points.

    With the points left, you can take another 2 5 man squads with 2x heavy bolters, or 1x missile launcher. Or take 2 razorbacks for the SM squads for more Heavy Bolter goodness.

    ElderCat on
    NDrRsGD.png

  • AthaedosAthaedos Registered User
    edited March 2007
    Uhg. So I'm gonna have to find a new arm for him or something... Well if I can't have a Power weapon and fist, his sword will definitely be the sword of secrets, and in his other hand... are there any left-handed storm bolters?

    Athaedos on
  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Sword of Secrets is a unique item to the Chapter-Master. I only know of right-handed SBs, but I glued a plastic one to a left arm fairly easily a while back for my army.
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    There is no armoury in the DA Codex.
    You can replace his bolt pistol with a plasma and you have the following options to replace his chainsword: Power sword, power fist/lightning claw, pair of lightning claws/thunder hammer.
    You can also add (without replacing anything) a combi-weapon/stormbolter and/or meltabombs and/or jump pack. That's it.
    No MC, no purity seals, nada.

    You're right, it totally slipped my mind last night and didn't think to check it

    I hope that won't be the case with Blood Angels, I had some wicked assault character ideas. I suspect they'd be a bit more flexible with CC weapon combinations for that Legion over DA, though.

    Utsanomiko on
    hmm.gif
  • corcorigancorcorigan Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Aren't the people you play with a bit more flexible? I always found half the fun was seeing what weird unique stuff people would use. Unless it's obviously rubbish. I found role-played stuff was fun.

    corcorigan on
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  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Athaedos wrote: »
    Uhg. So I'm gonna have to find a new arm for him or something... Well if I can't have a Power weapon and fist, his sword will definitely be the sword of secrets, and in his other hand... are there any left-handed storm bolters?
    As Utsanomiko pointed out, there is only one Sword of Secrets, and it belongs to the Supreme Grand Master. Company commanders can't get one; their options are exactly as I outlined in my previous post, all I left out were the point costs.

    Fortunately, there is a left-handed stormbolter that you can use - it's a component for the new Terminator Librarian that just came out on Saturday in the UK.

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  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    So, is it just me or are the close combat doctrines for IG pretty awful? +2 points a model for +1 attack at the cost of the lasgun? Overpriced +ws doctrine. Better to just swamp them with standard guard and conscripts.

    I'm still looking over the list, but I find all the special options seem pretty shitty and overpriced. Afterall, IG already pay too much for troops, to balance the fact that they can take so many.

    Vanilla seems the way to go...

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against the Irish) Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I think I said it before in this thread, it's completely possible to give a IG model the stats of a space marine, but it's going to make them vastly more expensive to do so. That's why, for the most part, you see the same doctrines repeatedly being used, stuff like Drop Troops, Light Infantry, Iron Discipline, etc.

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    While they certainly can't have T4 S4 or a 3+ save, you have a point. The doctrines seem to be too experimental in their pricing and usefulness when you consider you don't want to be running around charging things even with a higher weapon skill.

    Why Warrior Weapons is anything but free is beyond me.

    Utsanomiko on
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  • ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    HAve any of you guys worked with the resin Forgeworld Predator Annihilator? is it as cool a model as it seems?

    Clawshrimpy on
  • UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    It's an interesting variation of turret design, but I can't say it's special enough to warrant double the price tag.

    Utsanomiko on
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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    So, is it just me or are the close combat doctrines for IG pretty awful? +2 points a model for +1 attack at the cost of the lasgun? Overpriced +ws doctrine. Better to just swamp them with standard guard and conscripts.

    I'm still looking over the list, but I find all the special options seem pretty shitty and overpriced. Afterall, IG already pay too much for troops, to balance the fact that they can take so many.

    Vanilla seems the way to go...


    There are some gems. Drop Troops, Veterans, Iron discipline, Close order drill, Light infantry, Die hards, chamileoline, grenadiers,chem inhalers, etc


    Then there are some like mechanised or jungle fighters that are good for specialized army types.


    Then there are a lot that are just absolute crap. Which is essentially anything involving close combat. Lots of people seem to want to do hardened fighters + carapace + warrior weapons and what you end up with is really crappy slugga boyz with t3 and no choppas that cost 11.5 points each.

    Edit: For what it's worth, I'm currently running

    Veterans
    Light infantry
    Jungle Fighters (veterans only, for the extra heavy flamer and ability to hide in woods, and fluff reasons)
    Rough Riders (fluff reasons, and I need something nice and mobile to sit in my deployment zone and keep people from infiltrating or deep striking too close to my vehicles)


    And then some other doctrine I haven't decided yet, but which will probably be either Iron Discipline, Close Order Drill, Genadiers, or Die Hards.

    Jealous Deva on
  • ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Utsanomiko wrote: »
    It's an interesting variation of turret design, but I can't say it's special enough to warrant double the price tag.

    I would imagine solid resin being more sturdy than standard plastic. plus it looks kinda cool.

    Clawshrimpy on
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I still say Sharpshooters is a doctrine that looks bad on paper, but is a godsend in practice.

    Der Waffle Mous on
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