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Netbooks are neither nets nor books. Discuss!
Kupula
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I am looking to buy a netbook, and I am completely torn between the 3 leading models out there right now: The Asus Eee Pc, MSI Wind, and Samsung NC10. I don't want anything smaller than a 10" screen, and I'm looking for one with a regular, spinning disk hard drive for the extra space and at least a 6-cell battery. These are the pros and cons of the three models from my perspective and research:
MSI Wind U100
+nice keyboard layout
+good feel
+later models have draft-n support and bluetooth
-touchpad is small, and there seems to be no multi-touch functionality or scroll bar
-when viewed in person, the screen position seemed low to me
-screen is connected to body at only two points (vs across the whole body)
-I've heard its really back heavy?
Eee PC 1000HA or 1000H
+screen position looked better than wind side by side. I know, this is really nit-picky.
+multi-touch touchpad
-annoying position of the right shift
-draft-n and bluetooth only come in the 1000H, which is ~$50 more and seems to only come in lame colors
Samsung NC10
+got amazing reviews everywhere I've looked
-costs more than the wind and eee pc 1000HA, about the same as the 1000H
+draft-n and bluetooth
So, I guess what is really bugging me is the touchpad, keyboard, and bluetooth differences. I understand its pretty easy to mod the eee pc, but I'm not too keen to go tinkering inside of the thing and totally void my warranty. So then the 1000H makes more sense, but then I might as well get the Samsung at the same price point. If I disregard the whole touchpad thing, then the MSI seems to be the most attractive piece of hardware. Anyway, you can see my dilemma. I've done tons of research, so I figure I would look for some opinions out there. Btw, $480 is my upper limit on spending.
MSI Wind U100
+nice keyboard layout
+good feel
+later models have draft-n support and bluetooth
-touchpad is small, and there seems to be no multi-touch functionality or scroll bar
-when viewed in person, the screen position seemed low to me
-screen is connected to body at only two points (vs across the whole body)
-I've heard its really back heavy?
Eee PC 1000HA or 1000H
+screen position looked better than wind side by side. I know, this is really nit-picky.
+multi-touch touchpad
-annoying position of the right shift
-draft-n and bluetooth only come in the 1000H, which is ~$50 more and seems to only come in lame colors
Samsung NC10
+got amazing reviews everywhere I've looked
-costs more than the wind and eee pc 1000HA, about the same as the 1000H
+draft-n and bluetooth
So, I guess what is really bugging me is the touchpad, keyboard, and bluetooth differences. I understand its pretty easy to mod the eee pc, but I'm not too keen to go tinkering inside of the thing and totally void my warranty. So then the 1000H makes more sense, but then I might as well get the Samsung at the same price point. If I disregard the whole touchpad thing, then the MSI seems to be the most attractive piece of hardware. Anyway, you can see my dilemma. I've done tons of research, so I figure I would look for some opinions out there. Btw, $480 is my upper limit on spending.
Kupula on
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I have an EeePC (a 900A), and the tiny right shift doesn't bother me now that I've gotten used to it. It'll likely take you a day or two to be able to touchtype without issue no matter which model you get. Muscle memory can be a bitch.
$480 will set you up fairly decently no matter which manufacturer you choose, but you might want to spend some of that on an external optical drive.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
Also, you should consider taking a look at the 8.9" models - like the Acer Aspire One - in person. They're pretty low-cost, high-feature, and have 6-cells.
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
Unless you're planning on installing Windows XP, because installing Windows from a thumb drive is a ridiculous pain in the ass.
I seriously can't think of anything else you'd need an optical drive for.
Anyway, I'm using the 901 right now and I have to say, having seen both this one and the 1000, that the difference between the 9" and 10" screens is really not a big deal at all. Look into the 900HA, it looks like a really good deal around now.
In order:
In the 21st century people still use CD-ROMs and DVDs.
Windows XP is easy as pie to install from USB. I've installed FLP (which is just a modified version of XP) from USB twice.
Every piece of software you'll ever buy or currently own that isn't distributed digitally or hasn't been nocd cracked.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
Also, it's nice to be able to burn the occasional CD/DVD. Just buy an external 5.25" cage and slap a DVD burner in it, if you've got a spare.
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
Hey, a pirated version of FLP isn't the same as actual Windows XP, the setup program of which does not actually have USB mass storage drivers. Vista is apparently less bass-ackwards to install from USB; I'll test it myself once I get the parts needed to put a hard drive in my 901.
And software? Oh, you mean video games. That's not really what a netbook is for, nor are there really any games that will run on these low-power things that haven't had no-CD patches around for like the past five years.
I had no problem installing actual XP from USB ... of course, dicking around with computers is kind of what I do for a living. :P
Anyhow, get yourself WinPE 2.0 via the WAIK (Windows Automated Installation Kit) for that.
Most people don't want to be arsed with mapping a networked CD drive/creating a network install point/etc, they just want to put the spinny shiny thing in the drive and have it work. Perhaps a netbook Isn't For Them, but I'd argue that is the exact individual they're targeting.
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
In order, again:
First of all, my copy of FLP is not pirated, and all you need to prep Windows XP for installation from USB is about ten minutes and a little bit of knowledge (just because it's too difficult for you doesn't mean it's too difficult for the rest of us).
There is plenty of non-gaming software. You're being obtuse.
There are plenty of games that will run on a 1.6GHz system with a gig or more of RAM, even with an Intel 945. And there are some people who either don't want to resort to cracks, or who don't want to lose insane amounts of hard disk space to cd images.
You said something incredibly stupid and were called on it. Case closed.
But, this is the sort of thing we ought to be discussing in the netbook thread, instead of shitting up this guy's genuine request for recommendations.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
In order:
Mere mortals don't get access to WinFLP, nor do MSDNAA subscribers. But hey, whatever, I'll drop it.
Name one piece of non-gaming software that requires the disc in the drive at all times.
Are you seriously recommending that people carry around an external DVD drive in order to play games? Hahaha, holy battery consumption, Batman!
My point was that you can get by quite comfortably without any sort of USB optical drive at all.
And the entire contents of this thread belong in the netbook thread, but nobody puts them there because that thread has a misleading title.
Ooh, can I play?
In order:
I have access and a license to WinFLP. Again, see "What I Do For A Living" though.
It's not about having the disc in the drive, it's about being able to insert disc-install-done rather than insert disc-map drive-install over network-god what the fuck is taking so long-etc.
Vis-a-vis gaming on a netbook not being What You Do, most people don't game on battery power either.
Yes, you can. But with the cost of external 5.25" casings or drives being "Pretty Goddamn Cheap" and them also being wonderfully convenient things to have for connection to other machines - what's that? Family member/friend needs to make a backup of stuff? Cook a DVD? Etc? Plug it in, done.
And yes, this does all belong in the misleadingly-titled Netbook thread.
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
edit: and installing Windows XP by USB is still a pain in the ass because the preinstallation environment doesn't have proper USB MSD drivers. I've done it, but it was quite an ordeal. Maybe WinFLP's installer has them (I know Vista and Server2003 both do) but people who don't do What You Do For A Living don't have access to Windows FLP anyway.
Well, I assumed that the only time you really needed it was to install Windows XP. And I don't think anyone would be dumb enough to install an OS on battery power alone. :P
Wasn't a pain in the ass for me, of course that may be experience talking. But with WAIK out there, it's not hard to get going. And people could even use BartPE if they wanted to go that route.
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
External optical drives aren't that expensive, and it'll pay for itself in you not having to go through the hassle of making a disc image on another machine, and then transferring it to your netbook (burning time and hard disk space), or setting up a network drive (have fun doing that when you're out of the house) every time you want to install something, watch a DVD, or shit I don't know rip or burn a CD/DVD or do any of the myriad of other things people do with optical drives.
We should just talk the op into editing his post so this is the new general-purpose netbook thread.
===
Anyway, my advice to him/her is to track down a store that has an NC10 in stock that you can fool around with, since it seems to be the only one of the three you haven't demoed.
I'd stay away from the MSI (I think they only ship with half a gig of RAM, and the built in webcam sucks too much battery power).
The NC10 is supposed to have the largest keyboard of the bunch (93%), and it has a full sized right shift, but the trackpad is a rocker instead of having two separate buttons, and is tiny. It also has the better battery life of the two.
The 1000H is supposed to have a slightly better screen, and although both systems are rocking integrated video, the 1000H outperforms the NC10, albeit not by an incredibly huge amount. Some people have reported "flex" with the keyboard, or occasional double-typing a letter when they hit a key. The speakers are considerably better on the EeePC than they are on the NC10 (both systems have them located on the underside of the system). The EeePC is supposed to have better power-management software, but since it has a lesser battery life than the NC10 I don't see how that matters much.
They both feature basically identical specs, both screens run natively at 1024x600, and both have the same ports.
Try to get ahold of an NC10 to play around with, and then you should have a better idea of which one calls out to you more. Just remember (with either system) to disable the webcam when you aren't using it and think about springing for an extra gig of RAM since it's so cheap.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
That's the impression I got from looking at an N10J in store (which came with vista premium.) I mean the machine itself was just bloody marvelous (and along with the aspire one it's a netbook I'd choose) but if I bought one I'd strip it to XP and linux as soon as I got it home.
N10J is worth looking at as a model too, by the way. It had a really nice keyboard as well.
Now that netbooks are starting to proliferate I've managed to look at:
Aser Aspire One (the first one that hit my area)
Asus EEE 1000H
Asus N10J
Samsung NC10
MSI Wind
HP mininote
some weird TINY netbook that I THINK was a toshiba. Google is being a bitch right now or I'd just look it up in ten seconds and link the model.
The tiny one was admittedly tiny, but the keyboard was useless by virtue of it's size (it makes every other netbook keyboard look big) and it looked pretty cheap when the unit was open. Like a big old calculator.
The aspire one is what I'd buy if I wanted the best form-factor for a netbook, since the keyboard is pleasant (except for small left shift on bilingual models), the unit's very light and you can get them with extended batteries. It's also really well priced for what comes with it. I have friends who own them so by far I've had the most chance to play with them. One of them uses his in the tub.
The EEE 1000H was nice enough but I'd probably just skip it by virtue of liking the aspire one more. Lots of people like the 900/1000 series more so you'd be well off looking at both, for sure. The aspire just does the same stuff in an 8.9" form factor (without having an expansion port on the inside, if I remember right, and no bluetooth I believe)
The MSI wind looked and felt a LOT like the 1000. Better keyboard, I think.
The NC10 was really good, I'd go with one if I wanted an affordable model with a great keyboard. Fit and finish felt nicer overall than the 1000 series.
The HP mininote had a good keyboard too, but it felt sluggish and I hear they heat up a fair bit.
The N10J ran vista and as I mentioned above felt sluggish all the time compared to all the other machines (including the mininote.) It cost more than all of them, although admittedly you don't have to waste time upgrading the memory yourself and it did come with a vista home premium license. If you bought one I doubt you'd be happy until you replaced the OS, but having real 3d would be worth it in my opinion, and I gather they by defaul come with very good batteries.
Overall I like the N10J and the Aspire One the best. If I didn't want to be able to play some not-quite-modern 3d games, I'd go with the aspire one (or whatever other model suited you best.) But I think, after playing with the N10J for a while, that if I buy a netbook that will definitely be the one. Slick machine.
I'd really hunt them up in stores so you can look at them in person. It makes a big difference.
Home Basic requires a 1GHz CPU and 512MB RAM. I don't know what the Atom 1.6GHz is performance rated as, but I've seen Viista running on 1.6GHz/2GB EeePCs and it can be modified to run well. Not as well as XP, obviously, but it's doable if you really want to do it.
While your best bet netbook wise (assuming you're dead set on a Windows OS) is to stick with XP until Win7 system requirements are figured out, Vista is technically an option.
Actually can't you get a Mini 9/Mini 12 with Vista? I think they're just the standard 1.6GHz Atom/1GB/i945 combo.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
That's what I recommend.
Can't game for shit on it, but it's still a rock solid OS.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
Still nice to get a vista home premium license with your netbook, though.
I really like linux for notebooks in general, but part of that is certainly that (outside of the notebook I'm on now--on which I don't hardly boot into linux) I seldom use my notebooks for gaming. I don't think XP or Vista have a lot going for them over the quality linux distributions outside of gaming. I have to say, a good linux distribution certainly enables you to get a lot more power out of your portable device (ie, Puppy, Ubuntu/Xubuntu) than windows does. Again, outside of the realm of gaming.
If I got an N10J I'd run XP and linux (and mostly use linux, outside of games,) anything else I'd just run linux straight out. I admit (as a linux fan) that I'm glad netbooks are introducing more people to linux as a desktop --wrong word in this specific case, I know-- operating system.
The NC10 is the only one that I have not tried yet. I am going to try to hunt one down this weekend. The 1000H's are apparently being phased on in favor of the 1002HA's, which seem to be identical to the 1000H except for a brushed aluminum finish and a slightly larger touchpad. Definitly a consideration. They seem to be at the $500 price point right now.
As far as the external optical drive is concerned, I saw some pretty nice slim models on newegg for around $50 - $60, which is pretty good. I was already planning to pick one up. I can see how one might get away with using large flash drives, but its more convenient to have the optical drive.
How much do these go for nowadays?
I don't know why I'd ever want to game on my netbook
I can think of a lot of games I'd play with a mini USB mouse handy.
You could probably get one for like $400 or less, and spend a few bucks upgrading to a bigger hard drive, and have something more functional than a netbook with roughly the same gaming capabilities and software support. It's small and light enough that I can comfortably carry it around in one hand.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
How is an iBook more functional than a standard Netbook? And saying that a Mac has roughly the same gaming and software support as a Netbook running XP is ridiculous. Also, having to disable wifi whenever you want a decent amount of battery life sorta kills the portability aspect. I've got a paltry 3-cell and I get just over 4 hours with wifi on and my screen bright enough to light up the room.
Like I said in the eee thread, videogames didn't just show up a year ago. There are game releases spanning back for twenty years that will play on a netbook, and picking mine up has given me an excuse to play through some real gems that I missed out on for one reason or another.
The biggest issue with playing games on a netbook (other than dealing with whatever integrated Intel video chip you get saddled with, which is usually a 945) are the games that require tweaking to run at 1024x600, which is the resolution that most netbooks use.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
Probably not on battery though, by default Ubuntu clocks mine down to 667mhz when it's not on the wall and if I manually up that to full speed my battery life just goes splat.
are you sure about that? the atom is quite the high performance lil' chip.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Though my ibook runs ubuntu and his aspire runs XP, so that might not be the most fair of comparisons.
I still think it's a great little computer.
It puts it on par with the new Core-based Celeron M, not the old Pentium4-based one.
Do you realize how old the G4 is?
edit: and I just double checked and every benchmark I can find comparing a pentium m to an atom is in fact using dothans, which are based of p3's and virtually identical to the original pentium ms except they're 90nm
And they handle the full SSE2 and SSE3 instruction set.
I think you misinterpret what I said. They are high performance lil' chips. In the category of low power consumption mobile chips, it has one of the best power to performance ratios out there.
Atoms run OSX Leopard far better than G4s do ;-)
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Screen too low: now that I look at it, I see what you mean, since its not centered vertically. I haven't noticed is 8 hours of usage, and even now that I do notice, I don't care. Of course, that's just my opinion. If it bugs you at first sight, you might not want to live with it.
Touch pad functionality: size for me is not an issue (but it could be for you). I can confirm that there is scrolling functionality, but it is not as good as in other touch pads I've seen. It does the job and it works, though, and I will probably get used to it. You just have to tap and hold the upper right or lower right corners of the pad. I personally prefer the edge scrolling on most laptops, and the 2 finger scrolling on the macs even more.
Screen hinge: Although only attached at 2 points, it feels fairly secure, no wobbling or give, I would say its comparable or even better than my macbook (which is a few years older though, to be fair).
Back heavy: this is true: if the lid is open very wide and I tip the laptop all the way back, I can get it to balance on the screen instead of falling back on its feet. I haven't seen any real circumstances where this would be an issue.
Overall, the machine seems pretty good. Excellent build quality, and a long battery life (I was able to get 4 hours surfing the web on wireless with the indicator giving me another hour and a half or so), and no issues with performance, although I haven't tested its limits yet.
From what I've read, the 1000 series seem to have better performance, and the samsung reviews seem exceptionally good. But they were more expensive and are more difficult to get. If either one sounds better and if you can get it at a good price then by all means go for it. But if you opt for a wind, I don't think you would have to many problems with it.
Only desktop Atom chips are dual core, none of the netbooks pack 'em that I'm aware of.
I am really loving this machine. It was the most solid of any if the netbooks I held. So I bought it. I wish I could of demoed a Samsung but, oh well, this one is pretty nice.
Eh, Ego I think dude is referencing the pentium like chips as being dual core and comparable to the single core netbook atoms yes?
The netbook Atom chips are single-core with hyperthreading.
(and I've only ever seen them compared against the Celeron 900 that used to be in the old Eee. Who the hell compared them to the old Pentium 3?)
Very possible I misunderstood, but who's comparing dual core p3-based chips to Atoms? Now I'm just MORE confused