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Warhammer: the Casual Amusement of Fantastical Battlefication

MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
edited June 2009 in Critical Failures
WARHAMMER: THE GAME OF FANTASY BATTLES

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Aren't Toy Soldiers for Nerds?

Yeah, but nerds have money and toy soldiers are more awesome than most other things you can waste your money on. Warhammer refers to a fantasy setting and a number of distinct tabletop and computer games. This thread is concerned with the original, a tabletop miniatures wargame.
Wikipedia wrote:
Warhammer: The Game of Fantasy Battles, formerly Warhammer Fantasy Battle and often abbreviated to Warhammer, is a tabletop wargame created by Games Workshop and the origin of the Warhammer Fantasy setting.

The game is played with 'regiments' of fantasy miniatures. It uses stock fantasy races such as humans, elves, dwarfs, undead, orcs, goblins, vampires, as well as some more unusual types such as lizardmen, skaven, etc. Each race has its own unique strengths and flaws; Wood Elves, for example, have some of the most powerful archers in the game but have poor overall defense.

Since first appearing in 1983, Warhammer has been periodically updated and re-released with changes to the gaming system and army lists. The current official version is the seventh edition, released on 9 September 2006.
In a nutshell, each player collects an army of Citadel miniatures. Then, using the Warhammer rulebook as a guideline, they fight epic battles against their fellow generals. Dice (like you'd find in almost any board game) are used to determine success and failure: to decide whether an arrow hits its target, or whether a magical power works, for example. Each game is played, not on a regular 'board' but in a special gaming area where models are not confined to 'squares' but are free to move as their controller wishes. Because Warhammer is not played on a set game board, tape measures or rulers are used to see how far a miniature can move - a horse can run faster than a stumpy-legged Dwarf, after all.
Setting

The Warhammer story, or background, is vast. It begins tens of thousands of years before the current day with the Old Ones: beings of vast power that sailed between worlds on a sea of infinite potential (known as the Warp, Aethyr, or Realm of Chaos). Armed with incomprehensible techno-magicks and knowledge, the Old Ones raised the races of the Warhammer World from barbarism, teaching elf and dwarf how to draw upon the Realm of Chaos to shape extra-dimensional potential into physical forms… or magic, and bestowing upon them the joys of enlightened civilization. This golden age ended too soon, however, as the Old Ones were exterminated or driven away by things from the Aethyr: the daemons of Chaos and Ruinous Powers native to that Realm. Given form and purpose by the Warp-reflected flaws of mortals, these daemons invaded the Warhammer World, ending the age of Law and advancement brought about by the Old Ones. Many millennia later, the children of the Old Ones continue the battle gainst Chaos.

It is important to note that there are many, varied, implementations of Warhammer lore; none are more "right" or "official" than others. To put it quite simply, according to GW: THERE IS NO WARHAMMER CANON. Players are free to pick, choose, and research the bits they like.

WHERE DID GAMES WORKSHOP COME UP WITH THIS STUFF?

Warhammer's imagery and style are influenced heavily by gritty, classic fantasy authors, such as Michael Moorcock, Robert E. Howard, and H.P. Lovecraft, as well as real-world history and a bit of Tolkien. Designers also list influences such as Terry Gilliam, Black Adder, and Monty Python. The Warhammer world is a playground-like amalgam of everything from Napoleonic gun lines, to sanity-blasting tentacled horrors, to halfings and their giant cocks (depictions of a large rooster that serves as a provincial symbol for the little folk). Those interested in learning more might be urged to pick up some of these older books; Warhammer’s roots are clearly evident in Conan, Elric, and Martin Luther.


THE WARHAMMER WORLD

The unnamed (to its inhabitants) Warhammer world roughly resembles our own. Maps can be found here. At the “heart” of the known setting is the Old World, analogous to Earth’s Europe. Here one finds the human nations of the Empire, Bretonnia, Kislev, brutal Nosrca, Tilea, and Estalia as well as the remnants of the Dwarfs’ ancient empire beneath the mountains. Scattered pockets of wood elves (both civilized and less so…) share lands with the Empire and Bretonnia. To the south, past the rogue settlements of the Border Princes and orc-infested Badlands, lie trackless deserts. Cut through by the great River Mortis, the ancient, dusty realm of Nehekkarha lies not-as-silent as it should be, duly earning its title as the Land of the Dead. Past here, one finds the mysterious human nation of Araby, rife with proscribed cults and unknown magic, with the dark jungles of the Southlands engulfing the rest of the southern continent. Nothing but sun-mad orcs and the remains of the Old Ones’ world live here.

To the east lie the dead plains of the Dark Lands, choked with the fumes of Chaos Dwarf industry. Yet further east, in the Mountains of Mourn, are the Ogre Kingdoms. These inhospitable vaults are dotted with the scattered ruins of forgotten civilizations and shaggy prehistoric beasts, pierced in the south by the Silver Road, the sole not-so-safe route between the lands of the Old World and mysterious Far East. Of the kingdoms of Ind, Cathay, and Nippon little is known… other than that the presence of Chaos.

In the middle of the Great Ocean hides Ulthuan, the last great holding of the Asur, first and favorite children of the Old Ones. This magic and mist enshrouded isle contains the kingdoms of the High Elves, including mystical Avelorn and stately Eataine; recently opened to outsiders by the Phoenix King Finubar. Unknown to most of the Warhammer world, Ulthuan is of critical importance. In ancient times, the elves created a vortex of Chaos energy, woven of the structure of the island itself. This vortex drained the Chaos-stuff feeding daemonic legions after the fall of the Old Ones, allowing the elves to fight back and forestall the end of the world. Were this vortex to ever fail, Ulthuan would sink beneath the waves, heralding the final invasion of Chaos.

West of Ulthuan one finds the brooding forests and icy mountains of Naggaroth, the Land of Chill. Now refuge of the Druchii, exiled for millennia from Ulthuan, this is a land as cruel as its inhabitants. To the south is fabled Lustria, where the seat of the Old Ones lies rotting in the jungles. Overseen by things blindly following the edicts of the lost Old Ones, many attempt to enter these jungles to secure the gold and riches within. A few even make it back.

Finally, at the very ends of the Warhammer world lie madness and infinity. The collapsed interdimensional gates of the Old Ones spill Aethyr into the material, and thoughts of mortals into the Realm of Chaos. Surrounding the northern pole gate are the Chaos Wastes, lands of blended Warp and Material, realms of madness, eternal war, and the whims of the Chaos Gods. No one can leave this place entirely untouched by Chaos.

Armies: Who's killin' who

Games Workshop's Warhammer Page
Beasts of Chaos
Hidden in the darkest places of the world are the Beasts of Chaos. Beastmen, Minotaurs, Centaurs, and other spawn of the Dark Gods, these things are Warhammer’s version of the archetypal medieval daemonic satyr or beast in the woods. Beastmen were once human, but became the true and favored children of the Dark Gods when the Warp Gates fell, spilling pure Aethyr into the world. They’re still closely linked too; often a human baby is born horned and hoofed. These turnskins are either killed by Witch Hunters and priests, or taken by insane but loving parents into the woods, where they’re left for the Beasts.

Bretonnia
A thousand years younger than the Empire, the Bretonni tribe became the nation of Bretonnia under the guidance of Giles le Breton. Eschewing the philosophy and science of the Empire in favor of mysticism and feudalism, Bretonnians rely on the martial strength of their lordly knights in battle. They follow the edicts of the Lady, a goddess of suspect origin, but sometimes uphold her message of honor and mercy. A curious blend of pre-revolution France, English fighting styles, and Le Morte d’Arthur, the Bretonnians are a bit of an anachronism compared to the rest of the Old World.

Dark Elves
Warhammer’s version of the Melnibonean archetype, the Druchii have little to do with D&D dark elves or Tolkien’s fading perfect beings. Inheritors of the Phoenix King’s crown by way of heredity, the dark elves followed Malekith, son of the first Phoenix King, into exile after he was driven from Ulthuan by conspirators. The Druchii respect strength above all, and solely worship Khaine, the elven god of war. Taking a cue from the original sorcerers and their Chaos vortex, the Druchii do not fear Chaos, but seek to bind it to their will and purpose. Some would say this has corrupted them as a race and nation, but the dark elves don’t (officially) worship the Dark Gods- just see them as a means to an end.

Daemons of Chaos
At the heart of the Ream of Chaos lie the architects of the Old Ones’ fall. Born of fear and rage, ambition and despair, the most primal of these beings are the most powerful; the Great Gods of Chaos, four brothers who would see the end of the world. First among them is great Khorne, lord of all that is war, hatred, and bloodshed. There are few the martially-minded god hates so much as his sibling, the passionate Slaanesh. Patron of excess and indulgence, Slaanesh is least amongst the Chaos gods but popular with depraved cults of the Empire. Jovial grandfather Nurgle seeks to enrich the world’s despair by blessing mortals with virulent plagues and pestilences. Finally, of primary import to WAR is Tzeentch, the Architect of Fate. Tzeentch brings hope. Hope of change without reason or balance; Tzeentch is a manipulator, plotter, and sorcerer. His touch brings ambition and madness.

At times, the powers of Chaos put their differences aside and send splinters of their selves into the material world; where the skin of reality is thin, daemons can step into the mortal realms and fulfill the urges of their patron.

Dogs of War
As an army, Dogs of War include everything from Tilean pikes and crossbowmen to suicidal Dwarf pirates to an exiled Asur prince and his dragon. This has allowed GW to release a number of unique and interesting models over the years, often from nations that don’t warrant their own armies. Araby, Tilea, Estalia, and rogue elements of other armies have all been detailed.

Dwarfs
As those following WAR are probably aware, Warhammer dwarfs are the Nordic and Tolkien archetype taken to an extreme. More obsessive, drunk, and gold-hungry than most settings’ dwarfs, these guys are a major reason for the success of the Empire, having taught humans ironworking, gunpowder, and numerous other advances. The friendship between the dwarf kings and Empire is one of the few true alliances in the Warhammer world. The dwarfs once held a mighty empire running the length and breadth of the Old World. A mysterious cataclysm befell them many years before the founding of the Empire, followed by battles against the greenskins, then a costly war against the elves known as the “War of Vengeance”. These events saw the dwarfs greatly reduced in power, but through sheer spite and stubbornness, the race continues to survive.

The Empire
The point-of-view for most of the Warhammer World (and setting for WFRP), the Empire is an especially mad take on the 16th century, pre-Protestant Holy Roman Empire. The Empire learned metalworking and industry from the dwarfs, and were taught magic by the elves. The last true hopes of civilization against Chaos, Imperial armies combine gunlines, professional soldiers, knights, artillery, and magic to defeat their foes. Founded by Sigmar two and a half millennia before the current game period, Imperials now worship their founder as a god. It was Sigmar who forged the first true alliance with the dwarfs, saving their High King from capture by a superior band of orcs. For this, Sigmar was granted the hammer Ghal-Maraz, an heirloom dwarf runic hammer (and the titular weapon for the setting)… which is probably still carried by Karl-Franz, the current Emperor.

High Elves
First experiment of the Old Ones, these ancient and lawful beings taught the elves their magic, art, song, and civilization. Unlike other experiments, elven history vaguely remembers the Old Ones, giving them a racial memory and learning that vastly exceeds all others. Physically resistant to Chaos, the elves still suffer the moral and mental effects, especially when succumbing to their own arrogance and passions. High elf culture is extremely rigid and controlled because of this and they see themselves as the protectors of the world, justifying their near-fascism and unchallenged control of major sea-routes. Unlike the Tolkien archetype, the Asur are warriors and imperialists, with a strong fascination in the arts of warfare and bloodshed.

Lizardmen
During their time elevating the races of the Warhammer world, the Old Ones also created servants to help them with their work. After their fall, these servants blindly continued the Old Ones’ inscrutable plans, carrying on adjustment of the planet itself and battling Chaos in all its forms. The mighty Slaan, beings of immense Aethyric and psychic ability, interpret the Old Ones plans, while the Skinks act as their agents. Saurus warriors emerge from spawning pools, ready to defend their Lustrian homes, while Kroxigor and other prehistoric beasts are used for industry and war.

Ogre Kingdoms
One of the final experiments of the Old Ones, Ogres are among the most physically robust and resistant to Chaos. Not completely resistant, however, as an event early in their development lead them to worship of an entity known as the Great Maw, and granted the race an all-consuming hunger to fuel their massive bodies. Ogres have no allegiance to Chaos, though, nor hatred of it, often showing up as Dogs of War or mercenaries in the armies of humans, Orcs, Chaos, and anyone else willing to pay a bit of coin or bucket of stew.

Greenskins
Mushrooms? Monsters? Degenerate barbarians? However one classifies Orcs and Goblins, the only certainty is that they’re as certain as death and taxes. Little more complex than human two-year olds in massively tough and muscled bodies (or quick and wiry in the case of Goblins) greenskins enjoy nothing more than scrappin’ and fightin’. Dey’s ded ‘ard too, and dem Gobbos is pretty kunnin’ too, tho dey’s a buncha weedy gits. All ‘oomies need to know is dat da Waaagh! can’t be stopped and yous gonna get yer ‘ed bashed right in!

Skaven
There is no such thing as skaven. Just because you’ve seen evidence of rat-like beastmen doesn’t mean there’s some sort of intelligent Chaos beats below all the cities of the world, with technology that surpasses the Empire and a master plan to rule the ruins of civilization. That’s ridiculous.

Tomb Kings
Before the time of Sigmar, the first true civilization of Man arose in the deserts south of the Old World. Living amongst architecture strangely reminiscent of both Lustrian ruins and the monuments of the high elves, the people of ancient Nehekhara considered themselves the favored children of the gods. Over time, they came to fear and worship death above all else, believing their lives were mere preparation for a glorious and shining afterlife; much like the real world’s ancient Egyptians. For one Nehekharan, however, the afterlife was not enough; a brother of the Priest-King of mighty Khemri, this man sought eternal life and coveted the lands of all Nehekhara to be his shining paradise. After capturing and torturing the secrets of magic from stranded Druchii sailors, this man developed the science that would one day be known as Necromancy; power over the dead and death itself. Distilling an elixir from human blood, he was able to prolong his life, eventually usurping his brother and taking Khemri as his own. Eventually, the other Priest-Kings united and drove him into the desert, where he passed beyond the realm of the living, but did not truly die.

In his bitterness at being driven out, this man, known as the Accursed One to Nehekharans and He Who Shall Not Be Named to modern Arabyans, polluted the headwaters of the River Mortis, the very backbone of life in Nehekhara. Not content with merely bringing the ancient nation to its knees, he then attempted to cast a single spell that would awaken the entire nation from death and bind them to his will, creating an eternal army to rule the world with. Though he cast the spell and tore generations of Nehekharans from their graves, he was mysteriously interrupted at the peak of the spell, losing control of his would-be slaves. The Tomb Kings and their entombed soldiers were not put to rest, however, and have since resumed the activities of their lives, protecting their dusty homes from invaders and warring against each other. All of these undead, however, nurse a hatred for he who tore them from the afterlife, and the dry desert winds carry their whispers of the Great Necromancer’s hated name; Nagash.

Vampire Counts
As with most undead in the Warhammer world, the vampires have roots in old Nehekhara. When Nagash was driven from Khemri by an alliance of kings, samples of his Elixir of Life and notes were captured and taken as spoils. In the city-state of Lahmia, the queen and her court drank of the Elixir and continued Nagash’s experiments. Soon these depraved nobles learned to sustain themselves indefinitely, not just by consuming the Elixir, but by drawing the very essence of life from living beings. Their souls sustained thusly, their bodies became strong and fast, driven by their own willpower and able to grasp and manipulate the Aethyr. These beings, known later as vampires, were eventually discovered by the Priest-Kings of other cities and driven out, later allying with, then fleeing from, Nagash.

In the modern Warhammer world, the vampires are often split along lines of bloodline and creed, following common archetypes of vampires from all of fantasy stories. Some have infiltrated the nobility of the Empire, counts of the blighted province of Sylvania. Some vampires are physically powerful, while others great sorcerers and necromancers. Some are affected by curses laid upon them by Nagash for their escape and cannot tolerate sunlight or holy relics. All are selfish and driven to make use of their long lives; whether through study, survival, or conquest.

Warriors of Chaos
Mortals who flock to the standards of the Dark Gods can consist of the disillusioned, the corrupt, and the insane. Some are refugees from the civilized nations of the Old World, while the bulk come from tribes of corrupted Norse. Living in the ever-changing wastes beyond Norsca and Kislev, bands of these warriors dedicate themselves to the Gods of Chaos, fighting for glory, the capricious favor of the gods, and the ultimate gift of Daemonhood. At times, a great champion will arise, sometimes dedicated to a single god, others loyal to all Chaos as a pantheon. These champions will then sweep from the north at the head of a vast horde, encased in dark iron armor and wielding weapons of madness and gifts of mutation from their gods.

Wood Elves
Long before the birth of Sigmar, the elves withdrew from their extensive colonies in the Old World. Caught between an unwinnable war against the dwarfs and civil war led by Malekith, the Asur were forced to the defensive. Not all the elven colonists followed the Phoenix King’s call for retreat, however. Small pockets of elves remained behind, in particular the colonists who settled in an ancient and dark forest known as Athel Loren. One of the most ancient and untouched woods of the world, Loren is a living, breathing entity, jealous of its borders and willing and able to brutally protect itself. Allied with the forest, the former elven colonists, called Asraii have returned to many of their rustic roots, favoring bow and bronze spear, eschewing advanced metalworking and armor. Wood elves owe more to medieval legends of forest spirits than Tolkien’s elves; they’re feral and vengeful, uncaring for little but defending the forest.
Crunchy Stuff: Links and Books

A guide to Warhammer books

Current Army Book Releases
Erandus wrote:
Books who's most recent release is their 6th ed edition:

Tomb Kings (jan 2003)
Lizardmen (may 2003)
Beasts of Chaos (aug 2003)
Bretonnia (feb 2004)
Ogre Kingdoms (jan 2005)
Wood Elves (aug 2005)
Dwarfs (mar 2006)

Books who's most recent release is their 7th ed edition:

Orcs & Goblins (oct 2006)
Empire (jan 2007)
High Elves (nov 2007)
Vampire Counts (mar 2008)
Daemons of Chaos (may 2008)
Dark Elves (aug 2008)
Warriors of Chaos (nov 2008)

Books likely to be released next:

Lizardmen (feb 2009)
Skaven (july? 2009)
Beasts of Chaos (october? 2009)
Tomb Kings (christmas 2009?)

Lizardmen, Skaven and Beasts have been confirmed by GW to be next, and in that order. Date of lizardmen release is pretty much set. The book already physically exists. The next 3 releases are based on GW's usual pace of fantasy releases. Tomb Kings as the release after BoC is an educated guess based on the fact that retailers are no longer able to restock some TK models, which suggests they are either being repackaged or redone, and is a good indicator of the book being in line for update.

Books on the horizon and general guesses as to order and dates:

Ogre Kingdoms (late 2009 or early 2010)
Bretonnia (late 2009 or early 2010)

Links and Where to Buy
Where can I buy this stuff online?
http://www.games-workshop.com/ - The main site. Not the cheapest place to get minis, but if you can't find it anywhere else...

http://www.forgeworld.com/ - Beautiful resin models to add spiff to any army. The place to go if you love your hobby, but hate your wallet.

http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk - Consistent discounts, extra discounts on 5+ 'army bundles', free international shipping, great selection. Used as #1 seller by myself and several other users.

http://www.chaosorc.com - Good discounts (particularly on large items), cheap shipping. patchy selection but carries lots of older products and non-GW stuff. Some items aren't clearly labeled differently from older versions, but they're a good alternative on specific items.

http://thewarstore.com/ - Excellent selection, good discounts, good service. 20% off normal prices, 25% off orders of $400 (adjusted price) or more. $3.95 shipping flat rate (free on certain orders I believe.)

http://www.bartertown.com/ - The place to go when looking for like-minded people with models for trade and sale. I just picked up a Forgeworld Warhound Titan for half-off from someone who needed to raise cash for a ring.

Other places of Note:
http://www.warseer.com - Currently about the biggest GW-related forum on the net.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/ - Space Marines, and high fashion (not really)

http://www.the-waaagh.com - Orks orks orks orks! Jobs a gud'un boss.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/ - They used to be cool. Kinda fallen on hard times.

http://www.the-warforge.com - Ein's modelling and converting site. Totally slipped this into the OP because I could.

And because you need a way to cart all your wonderful new toys around, here are a couple recommendations beyond what you can get from GW:

Sabol Army Transports A little expensive, but I use them exclusively, because of the quite reasonable international shipping price, and mostly for the fact that you can custom cut the foam trays to fit your models. Also available from the War Store, and BattleWagon Bits.

Figures in Comfort A wide range of precut foam trays, and carrying cases for whatever your needs.

ArmyRoster.com - a great online tool for building and sharing army lists.

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Morskittar on
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Posts

  • ErandusErandus Registered User
    edited December 2008
    Woo, new thread. Nice OP, Mor.

    Except where it says "A map can be found here", it doesn't actually link to anything at all, much less a map of the warhammer world. :D

    Erandus on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Thanks. The map thing is fixed.

    Fun fact: the title was a common saying in GWUS when I was there. This was just after 40k 3rd released.

    Morskittar on
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  • ErandusErandus Registered User
    edited December 2008
    I believe it. I was never impressed with 40k. Not to specifically be all "our game is better than yours" on page one of our thread, or anything... I'm not saying 40k is a "bad" game.
    Just that it's for little sissy girls who can't do strategy.

    Erandus on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I hear 40k 5th is great.
    For tiny, tiny girls.

    I think it's time to finish up my first Warriors list too. I just need to settle on something, get a few more models, and start losing to figure out what I'm doing.

    Morskittar on
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  • ErandusErandus Registered User
    edited December 2008
    Well lets get this party started. I'm stuck at work running 2K3 Server SP2 installs. Whatcha got so far.

    Erandus on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • vertrouevertroue I am Female Totes Not a SithRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Real men....yes yes I know there is no such thing as women on the internet but....what about Real women also play Warhammer?


    Eldar Harlequins mostly. Death Jesters...fun.

    vertroue on
    Blood and Fire
    From the Desk of Darth Vertroue Diplomat to the USA.
  • SkulloSkullo Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Erandus, in regards to my post in the old thread:

    Thanks for the help! We played it out that way to keep things moving and decided to ask later. Glad to know we're actually getting a grasp of this.

    So far we like it. Its a nice change of pace from 40k.

    Skullo on
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    vertroue wrote: »
    Real men....yes yes I know there is no such thing as women on the internet but....what about Real women also play Warhammer?

    Don't try to specif...ificate my generalizing!

    My Warriors thus far (aiming for 2250, at 1856):

    338 18 Warriors Cmd, Shields, Tzeentch
    252 12 Warriors Cmd, Hand Weapons, Nurgle
    30 5 Hounds
    30 5 Hounds
    71 5 Maraud Horse Mus
    310 5 Knights Cmd, Blasted Std, Tzeentch
    240 4 Ogres Greatweapons, Chaos Armor, Nurgle
    110 2 Spawn
    175 1 Sorcerer Infernal Puppet, Tzeentch
    190 1 Sorcerer Black Tongue, Nurgle
    110 1 Exalted Hero

    Sorcs will go with the Warriors, Hero will probably be mounted with the Knights. This is basically a list being tailored for fighting offensive and magic heavy armies like High Elves or Vampire Counts. Along with those, I'll often be playing Dwarfs, O&G, Skaven, and the occasional Daemons or Lizardmen.

    And I'm avoiding anything that will feel like playing skaven or Empire.

    Morskittar on
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  • vertrouevertroue I am Female Totes Not a SithRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Hehe all good there. I never did play Warhammer classic, only 40k.

    vertroue on
    Blood and Fire
    From the Desk of Darth Vertroue Diplomat to the USA.
  • ErandusErandus Registered User
    edited December 2008
    Tzeentch mark on warriors for anything aside from fluff? I personally think Khorne or Nurgle is more effective on them. 6+ ward is nice, but they already have a solid armor save, and that size of a warriors unit is probably ok without the extra save. Losing a few to shooting isn't going to hurt them terribly, and a 6+ isn't very reliable anyway. I really see Tzeentch as a predominately character-centric mark now. It doesn't make much sense for infantry. It's not bad, but there are more useful marks. Same for the knights, but it's more useful on them, being lower in number, and especially given the synergy with the blasted standard.

    I think 3 ogres is sufficient, but there's plenty of arguments for running 4.

    Full command isn't required on warriors and knights. For warriors, they have plenty of attacks and survivability already, and I can't justify the champ cost on them or knights. Musicians are optional, as those units shouldn't generally find themselves fleeing.

    It's lamentable you have no room for scrolls, but that may not be so important depending on your local scene's magic habits.

    Erandus on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    3+ armor save models with a 6+ ward feels good to me, especially with the large unit size. The combination of all those factors will either have the enemy focusing too much on them (which they should absorb) or "put off" killing them as it's too much of a hassle, at which point they'll grind through whatever they hit. I was really iffy about it, though, as it feels like you're wasting points on the casting bonus. Nurgle makes sense here, but it doesn't feel right to stick a Tzeentch caster in a Nurgle unit for fluff reasons. I tend to skew old school like that.

    I was actually building to contain *more* champions for the Eye of the Gods rolls. On the Warriors especially, I can see where this would probably not come into play very often, unless I'm just shielding the Sorcerers. I've also had too many ties over the years to justify not taking musicians. I like to roll badly, so they'll hopefully help.

    3 Ogres 'cause that exceeds a 5-wide standard-based unit frontage? That makes sense, though for a first list I'll probably stick with four just to mitigate new army $ costs.

    A scroll or two would be nice; I keep coming back to a third Sorcerer or Sorc Lord as a possibility, though I'd like a badass to hang out with the knights too.

    Morskittar on
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  • AlazullAlazull Your body is not a temple, it's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    You know, one thing I've learned about musicians is that they are never worth the points until you don't take them. Same thing with shields on Thunderers.

    Also, great OP Morskittar. I like this new thread feeling.

    Alazull on
  • ErandusErandus Registered User
    edited December 2008
    Your warriors actually have a 2+ armor save, in CC.

    And unit champs only get EotG rolls if you have a warshrine on the table.

    4 Ogres can all get in b2b with 5-wide 20mm infantry, so it's not that. 3 is for maneuverability. 4 start to get movement-intensive to wheel, eating up a lot of their march. There's no problem taking 4 if you only have one unit, it's really personal preference. Now, if you were to take 2 units of 4, I would tell you to find the points to buy 1 more Ogre and get 3 units of 3 instead.

    Erandus on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Erandus wrote: »
    Your warriors actually have a 2+ armor save, in CC.

    And unit champs only get EotG rolls if you have a warshrine on the table.

    They still have to challenge too, even when they don't have EOTG. Ive been using the following warriors list, and its worked fantastically so far.
    Exalted hero
    Runeblade
    MoK
    Jugger
    Shield.

    Exalted hero
    Shield
    Collar of khorne

    Exalted hero
    Shield
    Fury of the blood god.

    5 Hounds
    5 Hounds
    5 Marauder horsemen
    Shields

    12 Warriors
    Full command
    Additional HW

    12 Warriors
    Full command
    Additonal HW

    5 Knights of chaos
    Lances
    Full Command
    Mok

    5 Knights of chaos
    Lances
    Full Command
    Mok

    5 Knights of chaos
    Lances
    Full Command
    Banner of rage.

    The Trick here is to use your hounds/horsemen/warriors as a screen, manipulating the knights into not running off in stupid directions. The Warriors should try to block LOS on enemy wizards (bringing the 2 MR each into play), whilst the hounds and horsemen move forward and angle them selves to block LOS and expose enemy flanks if they charge. The frenzied warriors with lances should move up as quickly as possible, should be in combat by turn 2, and will win against almost any unit. Hit the expensive stuff first, and then have the warrior units mop up crappy stuff. Of course, artillery and high magic is your bane (the only loss so far with this list is to a Skaven SAD) but do your movement right, and you'll force the fire away from the knights. Even with a few casualties, knights are still stupidly hard hitting, each knight brings 5 attacks (including mount) to hits unit. The lances ARE worth the points too. It allows the knights to perform far better against high T high armour units, and useful around my local meta, where everyone is T4 at the moment.

    Norgoth on
  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    edited December 2008
    Erandus wrote: »
    GW is a fucking weird company. Take, for example, their tenuous relationship with Army Builder.

    Ah, that story again. Yeah, GW are really damn strange. WotC did pretty much the same with Fluid's character generation application.

    "OK, we want a character generator doodad to ship on them newfangled CD-ROMs!"
    "OK. Here, we've developed it."
    "On second thought, we don't want it. Deal's off."
    "Fine, we'll strip some parts and release it for free under the OGL license!"

    [time passes]

    "Guys, we could sure use a digitamagical character generation. I hear them Fluid guys developed a nice one."
    "Fuck no, let's make our own!"

    Echo on
    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
  • oakloreoaklore Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Can I just plug these guys?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0wla2LK3xc&feature=channel_page

    (((EDIT: Is it improper for this to be a video like that due to NSF56k?)))

    Thats a battle report for a Vampire Counts Vs. Dark Elves match. It's very entertaining and theres a few more on their youtube channel. I guess the company buys, converts, and paints models for you based on what you ask for. Cool gift idea for the warhammer enthusiast (who doesn't like painting or just wants particular units tricked out).

    Anyways the "notreps" are very entertaining and since I'm newly back into playing warhammer, they're an awesome way to see the flow of the game. Hence the plug.... it's educational and entertaining... like Dora the Explorer for people who worship the blood god.:!!:

    oaklore on
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  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2008
    Watching that DE first turn made me cringe. What was he thinking?

    A duck! on
  • oakloreoaklore Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Not sure whatcha mean. Im a newb. I ran dark elves last night and lost(horribly to chaos).

    What was cringeworthy?

    oaklore on
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  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2008
    I think this tip goes well for everyone, but don't put your general/caster (especially if that person is both) out where a Fear-causing unit can break and kill them first turn. He's got both the Hydra and the Black Guard, both of which should be out ahead of any unit of Riders or whatever she was in. The Hydra has 5 toughness, the 4+ scaly skin and regen, so it's great for soaking up shooting (which the VC don't have, but whatever) and screening for your army. It's costly to do so, and I'd rather hit first, but it works. The Black Guard are pretty much the best option in your army for receiving a charge (with the Har Ganeth banner, anyways) and I can speak from experience that they will ruin Black Knight charges.

    Any time your general dies like a chump you've either done something you shouldn't have or got really unlucky.

    EDIT - What kind of unit was the Sorc even in? From the looks of it it was Dark Riders, which seems like a really odd choice.

    A duck! on
  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    A duck! wrote: »
    I think this tip goes well for everyone, but don't put your general/caster (especially if that person is both) out where a Fear-causing unit can break and kill them first turn. He's got both the Hydra and the Black Guard, both of which should be out ahead of any unit of Riders or whatever she was in. The Hydra has 5 toughness, the 4+ scaly skin and regen, so it's great for soaking up shooting (which the VC don't have, but whatever) and screening for your army. It's costly to do so, and I'd rather hit first, but it works. The Black Guard are pretty much the best option in your army for receiving a charge (with the Har Ganeth banner, anyways) and I can speak from experience that they will ruin Black Knight charges.

    Any time your general dies like a chump you've either done something you shouldn't have or got really unlucky.

    EDIT - What kind of unit was the Sorc even in? From the looks of it it was Dark Riders, which seems like a really odd choice.

    Not really, she gets the benefits of fast cav movement, so she can dance around flinging magic. Of course the problem here was not using them well at all and leaving them exposed.

    Norgoth on
  • oakloreoaklore Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Doesn't a single unit on a horse act much like a fast cav in the first place?

    oaklore on
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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    oaklore wrote: »
    Doesn't a single unit on a horse act much like a fast cav in the first place?

    Until you target the lone character with archery fire. :mrgreen:

    Anyone know if their are resculpts for the high elf special units in the works? Like the white lions?

    Inquisitor on
  • oakloreoaklore Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    At the risk of being incredibly cheesy, is there a unit that one would compare to, say...., a sniper?

    oaklore on
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  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    oaklore wrote: »
    At the risk of being incredibly cheesy, is there a unit that one would compare to, say...., a sniper?

    Empire Engineer with a Hochland Long Rifle.

    May be getting the unit name wrong, but the wargear is right.

    Salvation122 on
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  • EterenalEterenal Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Alazull wrote: »
    You know, one thing I've learned about musicians is that they are never worth the points until you don't take them. Same thing with shields on Thunderers.

    Also, great OP Morskittar. I like this new thread feeling.

    I couldn't agree more about musicians. I was playing a game last week against high elves with my woodies and it was looking to be a draw in his favor. On turn 6 I charged a unit of archers with a wizard in it with my treeman, hoping to break him and get at least 300-400 points for myself. I fluffed my attacks, killing only two. He had rank and outnumber, so we tied. He had no musician. The guys at the store then started yelling at him for not spending the 5 points or so it costs to have a musician, and then just to show him how much it would've paid off for him I rolled my break test on a stubborn 8 and failed. That would've been another 280 points for him.

    And why don't you warrior of chaos players have any warshrines? I've played two games against a warriors of chaos army and found those units to be the most annoying things in the list. They're what, T6 4+ AS, 4+WS? Not to mention they get a decent amount of attacks and can be marked! In those two games my opponent brought two shrines each time and I've only killed one each game, which took an average of 2 rounds of combat to do.

    Eterenal on
    admanb wrote: »
    Always remember that beasts have two states: dead, and fucking your face.
  • EterenalEterenal Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    oaklore wrote: »
    At the risk of being incredibly cheesy, is there a unit that one would compare to, say...., a sniper?

    Wood Elves have two items that let them snipe a character out of a unit, but you have to be lucky to do anything really. They're S3 and S4, which means you're usually wounding on a 4+ with little to no armour save modifier.

    If anything is a sniper, it'd be a cannon. Just aim at the character and pray he fails his 2+ look out sir roll.

    Eterenal on
    admanb wrote: »
    Always remember that beasts have two states: dead, and fucking your face.
  • RubberchristRubberchrist Registered User
    edited December 2008
    If you are good at guessing, most of the warmachines make pretty credible snipers, barring misfires.

    Especially if you are lucky enough to play Skaven, or any army with access to proper great cannons.

    -R

    Rubberchrist on
    "Nurgle has got to be my favorite chaos god, fluff wise...
    He's portrayed as this sort of jovial, jolly old guy who thinks that rotting apocolyptic plague is funny as hell... So basically he's a big ole fat bastard who thinks giving you a scorching case of the herp is a big laugh."
    ---Erandus
    Gallery and Blog:
    http://brushandputty.blogspot.com/
  • SJSJ Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Re-stating my want for new Skaven plastics.

    SJ on
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    There are a number of spells that can snipe as well; I think Empire is the only army that can reliably put together enough to reliably snipe more than champions (with Gold Wizards and the fact that a few units can take longrifles).

    It's a great tactic against Vampire Counts; regular vampires aren't very tough and the army starts falling apart without them.
    SJ wrote: »
    Re-stating my want for new Skaven plastics.

    I just sold a good chunk of my plastics betting on that. If they new release doesn't see at least new Clanrats and Slaves, I don't know what I'll do. Maybe buy all old Jes Goodwin metals?

    D:

    Morskittar on
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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I can never figure out what army I'd want to play for this game. There are too many awesome choices.

    Inquisitor on
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I can never figure out what army I'd want to play for this game. There are too many awesome choices.

    Over the course of 12+ years I've played every army except Bretonnia, Dwarfs, and Undead. It's a sickness. Not like 40k where it's Space Marines and everyone else.

    Morskittar on
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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I can never figure out what army I'd want to play for this game. There are too many awesome choices.

    Over the course of 12+ years I've played every army except Bretonnia, Dwarfs, and Undead. It's a sickness. Not like 40k where it's Space Marines and everyone else.

    *casts a sidelong glance at this space marine army* S-s-shut up!

    Inquisitor on
  • SJSJ Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I can never figure out what army I'd want to play for this game. There are too many awesome choices.

    Over the course of 12+ years I've played every army except Bretonnia, Dwarfs, and Undead. It's a sickness. Not like 40k where it's Space Marines and everyone else.

    Meh. 40k hasn't really been like that for a while. There's still a lot of marine players, but most of them really, really suck.

    SJ on
  • oakloreoaklore Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I'm in the same boat, Inquisitor. Everything is so cool.

    I'm starting very fresh, but I have a buddy that has alot of different core units I can borrow and play with. I just don't want to start anything, reconsider and change, and be left with stuff I can't use and an army book I'll never look at.

    That said, I'm thinking about Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Empire or Chaos. But, I'll probly not take Chaos as my friend is already starting to collect them.

    Leaning towards Vampire Counts or Tomb Kings because I love the flavor. I'd also like painting undead way better than painting....

    ...Empire. Less for flavor, but for practical reasons, and they have a bit of everything and are pretty shooty, but with solid core infantry, and good cavalry. I love good powerful cavalry charges, they get me stoked. I don't know about their magic but I think the wizards are 'sposed to be pretty 'splodey. It seems like with Empire you could buy 2-4 boxes and have an army.

    With VC or Tomb Kings, it seems like I'd have to pick and choose alot of extra boxes outside of the 2-3 core boxes before I'd have an army I'd want to field. Could be wrong tho.

    oaklore on
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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Yeah, VC are Tomb Kings a pretty cool. So is Empire, argh..

    So, what would you guys recommend as an army? I like shooting. I'm not going to make a gunline army or something, but, I would enjoy a shooting phase that actually impacts the game. Ranged war machines would be a nice plus.

    I'd probably prefer a more defensive, sturdy army. Something that could take a charge.

    I think the way magic is done is Warhammer is pretty cool, so I wouldn't mind having a magic phase of sorts, but it's not hyper essential.

    Inquisitor on
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    Yeah, VC are Tomb Kings a pretty cool. So is Empire, argh..

    So, what would you guys recommend as an army? I like shooting. I'm not going to make a gunline army or something, but, I would enjoy a shooting phase that actually impacts the game. Ranged war machines would be a nice plus.

    I'd probably prefer a more defensive, sturdy army. Something that could take a charge.

    I think the way magic is done is Warhammer is pretty cool, so I wouldn't mind having a magic phase of sorts, but it's not hyper essential.

    dwarves

    like

    verbatim

    PiptheFair on
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Hah, well that was easy.

    So I assume, battle for skull pass and then sell off the goblins would be a great way to start?

    This will probably be my next project once I finish up my marines.

    Inquisitor on
  • EterenalEterenal Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Except that dwarfs have absolutely no magic phase.

    I think Empire is what you're describing. Or Orcs & Goblins, however due to animosity O&G pretty much suck competitively.

    Eterenal on
    admanb wrote: »
    Always remember that beasts have two states: dead, and fucking your face.
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    get the BFSP box and go nuts with a friend at your shop

    you will thank me

    dwarves entire philosophy is shoot it till it's close enough to hit with axes

    PiptheFair on
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Eterenal wrote: »
    Except that dwarfs have absolutely no magic phase.

    I think Empire is what you're describing. Or Orcs & Goblins, however due to animosity O&G pretty much suck competitively.

    I don't really care about being hyper-competitive. I mean, obviously I don't want to get slaughtered either but, I don't need to have a perfectly honed army.

    I wouldn't have guessed that O&Gs had good shooting though.

    Inquisitor on
This discussion has been closed.