ugh.. since the majority of my paints seem all muddy and dried up i'm considering buying the damn mega paint set.
I have one. It rocks. It feels horrible to purchase it, but then holy fuck you have one. I love having one. The case is sweet, it keeps all your shit organized.. Yeah, it's worth the investment.
good enough for me, sold!
so i have an old empire war wagon. should probably be able to convert that up to a passable War Altar right?
at this point, I simply cannot compete on even a non-competitive level anymore
Oh I forgot about changing the fuckawful throttle with chain slavegiant attack. Regardless, the giant has to get a goddamn lot better for me to even think about considering possibly taking one over anything else in the whole book, for the same points.
As it stands, if he was like 120 points, I'd rather take 3 bulls for 105. Shit, I'd even consider taking 3 units of gnoblars over a 120 pt slavegiant.
I can be competitive against my friends, but thats because they play mainly empire, O&G, Skaven, and Brets (and only because the bret player has no gift for strategy whatsoever). The O&G player is currently selling off his TK and buying up Dark Elves, though, so looks like I can just scratch that semi-reliable win off. The Empire player is
Right now, OK are competitive only against BoC, TK, O&G, and some Skaven and Empire lists, and even then only if you know exactly what the fuck you're doing, and run the cookie cutter MSU Ironguts list. Any book out since dwarfs is a total crapshoot or guaranteed loss.
I thought Ogres were really good? At least, back when they came out? Did the changes for 7th really hurt them or something?
7th has seen sort of a power creep plateau; most of the lists that have come out leading up to 7th or later are quite good, the worst probably being Orcs and Goblins (which still has a few really competitive lists ). Anything released mid-6th is extremely underpowered right now. The later ones (WE and Bretonnia) are somewhat functional by all accounts (we don't have either around here) but Skaven, Tomb Kings, and Ogres are barely functional these days. Beasts are absolutely broke and can field gimmick lists at best.
Ogres are one of the least competitive armies in the game now. They can compete with BoC and TK because it's unclear which of those armies is actually worse right now. They can have some good games against O&G. They will either rape or be raped by skaven depending on the shooting/magic phases.
They were "okay" at best when they came out, but that was mainly because there'd never been such a "monster" heavy list before and nobody knew exactly how to play against them. There are several things about them that were always terribly underpowered (see: most of the list I posted). Even Ironguts, the best unit, are merely decent. They're just the best available in the Ogre book, so everyone spams tons of units of them, cause anything else is a downgrade.
The more the other books power-creeped up more and more - culminating in DoC - the weaker Ogres have wound up being. Other armies are just plain leaving them in the dust.
Re: Mor & Brets. They are still fully functional. They still hit like a goddamn truck and their armor/ward combo still gets them out of a lot of trouble. They have some useless magic items, slightly lackluster characters and magic, and one really dumb unit (questing knights), but they are still a totally legitimate and viable army thanks to core-choice heavy cavalry that is WS4 St5 on the charge, and the lance formation.
Haha, well, I guess I don't feel too bad now that I took my beast of chaos regiments I had bought a good while back and kit bashed them with some imperial guard to make some traitor guard.
Inquisitor on
0
Options
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
edited December 2008
beasts of chaos still manage to have the most broken character ever made
Beasts will be absolutely crying for an update once Lizards and Skaven go off... but then TK will be updated too, and Ogres will be left with uh.... pretty much absolutely no one that they're competitive with.
I don't think Daemons are significantly better than most other current lists, not in the way people say they are. If you group them with Warriors, Vampire Counts, and both new Elf lists, I'd say that's the upper tier right now. That upper tier isn't too far beyond the rest, going all the way back to Dwarfs and Empire which are both quite good.
Vampires though... ever see them go against a magic-lock or character assassination type list?
Beasts will be absolutely crying for an update once Lizards and Skaven go off... but then TK will be updated too, and Ogres will be left with uh.... pretty much absolutely no one that they're competitive with.
Beasts will be absolutely crying for an update once Lizards and Skaven go off... but then TK will be updated too, and Ogres will be left with uh.... pretty much absolutely no one that they're competitive with.
edit - pip, that character is hilarious.
so fucking ridiculous
Morghur?
I have a friend with two cases full of spawn to use with him.
Morskittar on
0
Options
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
Beasts will be absolutely crying for an update once Lizards and Skaven go off... but then TK will be updated too, and Ogres will be left with uh.... pretty much absolutely no one that they're competitive with.
edit - pip, that character is hilarious.
so fucking ridiculous
Morghur?
I have a friend with two cases full of spawn to use with him.
Wait Mortals of Chaos justgot their own book didn't they? Damn, now I have to dig mine out and redo my list. I had loads of Khorne knights and I need to see the changes and the new goodies I can give them.
The cold MI winters always get me interested in painting models again.
WAR had me hankering for a Raven Host warband, but I should probably just finish up the O&G I have and round that out to a decent list. One of these days. Maybe I'll get some painting in this weekend. It's been forever.
Hi5 MI buddy, where are you in the murder mitten?
I live in Lansing too, although I'm out of town at the moment.
Ws5, to 4, 2 attacks.. They're str 4, but they come with magic weapons that give them +1 str, and are magic. You can upgrade them to non-magic lances that gives them str 6 on the charge, while str 4 otherwise, but since it costs 5 points for the upgrade from the magic sword to the lance, it's not worth it. I'll take str 5 all the time for free over paying for str 6 sometimes and str 4 often. They also come with chaos armor, so are 1+ armor save.
Edit: Oh shit, I forgot, Chaos Knights cause fear now.
I think they're 40 points a pop now, and the Khorne mark affects their mounts. plus they have cool combos with banners, like taking the nurgle mark (enemies in b2b are -1WS, and a -1 penalty to shoot them) along with the banner of endless rage, which gives them frenzy that they can never lose. That makes them basically Nurgle + Super-Khorne. They're very comparable to the previous chosen knights, but cheaper.
So, Dwarfs. Still doing some pondering as to what I want in my list based on reading battle reports and other stuff online. I'm considering 20 thunderers, two bolt throwers, a grudge thrower and an organ gun but...that does seem like a little much doesn't it? Maybe drop the grudge thrower? Or does it seem okay as is, for my armies shooting.
20 guys with incredibly good ranged weapons and 4 warmachines?
Maybe a little over the top.
Generally, at 2000 points, my Empire take 10 Handgunners, 10 Crossbowmen, and 2 Warmachines. Considering that Thunderers are better than Handgunners, thats a nasty amount of shooting you've got going on there. Then again. 2 of those warmachines are Bolt Throwers, so I guess that offsets it. If anything I'd suggest swapping 10 Thunderers for Quarrellers, just for the variety (and flexibility).
Yeah, once I get the actually list in front of me the first thing I might do is drop the thunderers for quarrelers to shave points. Or maybe change one of the squads of thunderers to quarrelers upgraded to scouts with great weapons for variety, maybe.
Yeah, I know it's a lot of firepower, but it is the dwarf strength, and I'm picking each of the war machines for a specific reason. The bolt throwers when upgraded are strength seven, making them great chariot busters and big monster slayers. The grudge thrower is to help thin down big blocks of troops while the organ gun is there because it auto-hits and is great for protecting vulnerable dwarven flanks from skirmishers and fast cav.
I think I might drop the thunderers for quarrelers and drop one of the bolt throwers.
The cold MI winters always get me interested in painting models again.
WAR had me hankering for a Raven Host warband, but I should probably just finish up the O&G I have and round that out to a decent list. One of these days. Maybe I'll get some painting in this weekend. It's been forever.
Hi5 MI buddy, where are you in the murder mitten?
I live in Lansing too, although I'm out of town at the moment.
me2! (out of town on vacation) Do you play anywhere in town? We should hook up at Evolution Games son
This is going to sound bad, but I know a genius of a player who has never lost with BoC. He dominates the local W:F tourney's up here, book re-write or not, this guy is a Napoleon of beast herds. If he gets a book re-write, I honestly will laugh. He doesn't need any help winning. The army may be weak compared to newer ones, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's Ogre worthless.
This is going to sound bad, but I know a genius of a player who has never lost with BoC. He dominates the local W:F tourney's up here, book re-write or not, this guy is a Napoleon of beast herds. If he gets a book re-write, I honestly will laugh. He doesn't need any help winning. The army may be weak compared to newer ones, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's Ogre worthless.
This is going to sound bad, but I know a genius of a player who has never lost with BoC. He dominates the local W:F tourney's up here, book re-write or not, this guy is a Napoleon of beast herds. If he gets a book re-write, I honestly will laugh. He doesn't need any help winning. The army may be weak compared to newer ones, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's Ogre worthless.
morghur does not count
Would you believe he doesn't use him? Too many points. He fields they very basic in lords/heros, and goes balls out on herds and assorted other units.
3lwap0 on
0
Options
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
This is going to sound bad, but I know a genius of a player who has never lost with BoC. He dominates the local W:F tourney's up here, book re-write or not, this guy is a Napoleon of beast herds. If he gets a book re-write, I honestly will laugh. He doesn't need any help winning. The army may be weak compared to newer ones, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's Ogre worthless.
morghur does not count
Would you believe he doesn't use him? Too many points. He fields they very basic in lords/heros, and goes balls out on herds and assorted other units.
This is going to sound bad, but I know a genius of a player who has never lost with BoC. He dominates the local W:F tourney's up here, book re-write or not, this guy is a Napoleon of beast herds. If he gets a book re-write, I honestly will laugh. He doesn't need any help winning. The army may be weak compared to newer ones, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's Ogre worthless.
morghur does not count
Would you believe he doesn't use him? Too many points. He fields they very basic in lords/heros, and goes balls out on herds and assorted other units.
he's a goddamn sorcerer isn't he?
He's a Lutheran pastor. The perfect cover for diabolical scheming if you ask me.
ah cool, figured they were swordsmen. too bad they were listed as greatswords (unless back then thats what they were called). i'm not too bummed though cause the models are actually pretty damn awesome looking. and i can't send them to you, they must fight for my Nuln legions!
i got a crazy batch of old empire shit (included the aforementioned War Wagon). i'm getting around to sorting out everything i got and its a decent start for sure. with the things i already had i have the following:
16x spearman (pretty sure its 16)
16x handgunners
11x archers
20x oldschool swordsmen (thats including an old hero model as a champ)
16ish old halberdiers
3x canons (2 of them not-so-great as they're the old models that are super tiny)
1x mortar (guess i could build my plastic canon kit as a mortar instead to have 2 each i guess)
helblaster volleygun
various engineers
1x knightly orders box
6-8 metal knights with crazy hammers, pretty awesome
some more plastic knights w/ lances
a shit ton of REAL oldschool plastic knights (red and yellow plastic!)
warrior priest on foot
war wagon that will be converted to a war altar
battle standard bearer on foot
BSB on horse i think
2x wizards
i really want to get a nice block of like 15-20 flagellants and the Luthor Huss model.
The cold MI winters always get me interested in painting models again.
WAR had me hankering for a Raven Host warband, but I should probably just finish up the O&G I have and round that out to a decent list. One of these days. Maybe I'll get some painting in this weekend. It's been forever.
Hi5 MI buddy, where are you in the murder mitten?
I live in Lansing too, although I'm out of town at the moment.
me2! (out of town on vacation) Do you play anywhere in town? We should hook up at Evolution Games son
I don't really do much in-store play. I was more into Privateer Press's Hordes than I have been WHB. I've been meaning to pick it back up some though. I've been to Evolution a few times--very nice store. I'd be happy to get together for a game sometime (although I have to warn you, I'm quite the noob). I need to drop $150 or so to get my O&G list to where it needs to be. I should also finish painting my giant and boar chariot.
Or at least assemble the damn things and paint them later.
God, the Goblin Warboss on a Gigantic Spider is the hardest model I've had to put together ever. I think I'm going to just put him on a base of his own, make a little spot for it on the larger base, and just run with it since I'm going to have to dismount him anyway if the spider dies.
Skullo on
0
Options
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
God, the Goblin Warboss on a Gigantic Spider is the hardest model I've had to put together ever. I think I'm going to just put him on a base of his own, make a little spot for it on the larger base, and just run with it since I'm going to have to dismount him anyway if the spider dies.
I'm thinking of getting into Warhammer Fantasy. Been reading the main rule book and the high elf codex.
What do people think of High Elves?
I was planning on making an army with 2 archers and 2 bolt throwers for long range engagements with multiple magic heroes using Seer (choose spells) so I can use magic abilities that freeze up mounted units, comets of cassandra on artillery lines to keep them moving, and a mobile wizard (on a reaver unit) with vauls unmaking, fortune is fickle, and curse of arrow attraction to debuff the hell out of anything he gets within 2 feet of.
Of course there'd be a spearmen guarding the center with the ranged guys with a swordsman of hoeth on one flank and a dragon prince squad on the other flank (moving near the reavers to screen for them if things get hairy).
It's all theory playing, but I'm having fun designing the army on paper
Would you guys recommend buying the spearhead box over the battalion box for a new VC player? I can get the Spearhead for about 150-160 while the battlion is more like 70.
I do plan on buying a varghulf & grave guard, I need the book. So the spearhead seems nice. But is the value there, really, at $!150?? When I'll probably need more skellies, more zombies, and probly more ghouls?
I wrote a thing about High Elves in the Christmas Forum for you.
"Archers really aren't that good. Take one unit of 10. Add nothing. Take a unit of 20 spearmen with full command. There are your Core slots filled. Spend the rest of the points on stuff which is a lot better.
I generally take 2 bolt throwers and find the points well spent. They're incredibly reliable for warmachines.
Swordmasters are ridiculously Killy, but die to a stiff breeze. They'll murder things in combat, its making sure they get there thats the trouble. Phoenix Guard are as defensive as SMs are offensive. Incredibly hard to kill or break, they are an awesomely solid block. White Lions strike a middle ground and are probably the best all-rounder.
Dragon Princes just plain rock.
Mages are good choices but, no matter what you do, you can't turn any one into a "monster melee dude". If anything gets into melee with a mage he is dead. Remember you have to roll for spells, so you can never depend on getting a certain spell unless you take the crystal ball thing. Even then only one mage can do it. High level spells like the Comet of Cassandora have such a high casting cost that they rarely go off, and when they do, they're often dispelled. I generally take 2 level 2 mages. One with the Jewel of Dusk and High Magic for general utility casting and a Heavens Lore Scroll Caddy to sit at the back and buff. As far as I can remember, you cannot use Second Sign of Amul to reroll miscasts, only to hit and to wounds.
My general feelings are that I like High Elves a lot.
Posts
good enough for me, sold!
so i have an old empire war wagon. should probably be able to convert that up to a passable War Altar right?
Oh I forgot about changing the fuckawful throttle with chain slavegiant attack. Regardless, the giant has to get a goddamn lot better for me to even think about considering possibly taking one over anything else in the whole book, for the same points.
As it stands, if he was like 120 points, I'd rather take 3 bulls for 105. Shit, I'd even consider taking 3 units of gnoblars over a 120 pt slavegiant.
I can be competitive against my friends, but thats because they play mainly empire, O&G, Skaven, and Brets (and only because the bret player has no gift for strategy whatsoever). The O&G player is currently selling off his TK and buying up Dark Elves, though, so looks like I can just scratch that semi-reliable win off. The Empire player is
Right now, OK are competitive only against BoC, TK, O&G, and some Skaven and Empire lists, and even then only if you know exactly what the fuck you're doing, and run the cookie cutter MSU Ironguts list. Any book out since dwarfs is a total crapshoot or guaranteed loss.
7th has seen sort of a power creep plateau; most of the lists that have come out leading up to 7th or later are quite good, the worst probably being Orcs and Goblins (which still has a few really competitive lists ). Anything released mid-6th is extremely underpowered right now. The later ones (WE and Bretonnia) are somewhat functional by all accounts (we don't have either around here) but Skaven, Tomb Kings, and Ogres are barely functional these days. Beasts are absolutely broke and can field gimmick lists at best.
They were "okay" at best when they came out, but that was mainly because there'd never been such a "monster" heavy list before and nobody knew exactly how to play against them. There are several things about them that were always terribly underpowered (see: most of the list I posted). Even Ironguts, the best unit, are merely decent. They're just the best available in the Ogre book, so everyone spams tons of units of them, cause anything else is a downgrade.
The more the other books power-creeped up more and more - culminating in DoC - the weaker Ogres have wound up being. Other armies are just plain leaving them in the dust.
Re: Mor & Brets. They are still fully functional. They still hit like a goddamn truck and their armor/ward combo still gets them out of a lot of trouble. They have some useless magic items, slightly lackluster characters and magic, and one really dumb unit (questing knights), but they are still a totally legitimate and viable army thanks to core-choice heavy cavalry that is WS4 St5 on the charge, and the lance formation.
edit - pip, that character is hilarious.
Vampires though... ever see them go against a magic-lock or character assassination type list?
so fucking ridiculous
Morghur?
I have a friend with two cases full of spawn to use with him.
50 hounds
I live in Lansing too, although I'm out of town at the moment.
Ws5, to 4, 2 attacks.. They're str 4, but they come with magic weapons that give them +1 str, and are magic. You can upgrade them to non-magic lances that gives them str 6 on the charge, while str 4 otherwise, but since it costs 5 points for the upgrade from the magic sword to the lance, it's not worth it. I'll take str 5 all the time for free over paying for str 6 sometimes and str 4 often. They also come with chaos armor, so are 1+ armor save.
Edit: Oh shit, I forgot, Chaos Knights cause fear now.
I think they're 40 points a pop now, and the Khorne mark affects their mounts. plus they have cool combos with banners, like taking the nurgle mark (enemies in b2b are -1WS, and a -1 penalty to shoot them) along with the banner of endless rage, which gives them frenzy that they can never lose. That makes them basically Nurgle + Super-Khorne. They're very comparable to the previous chosen knights, but cheaper.
Also, Marauders are tits now.
I'll go pick the book up after Christmas and see about tooling them up to the new edition.
Hey now...Skulltaker is my boy. Don't be ta-alright I feel guilty using him I'll be honest.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
Maybe a little over the top.
Generally, at 2000 points, my Empire take 10 Handgunners, 10 Crossbowmen, and 2 Warmachines. Considering that Thunderers are better than Handgunners, thats a nasty amount of shooting you've got going on there. Then again. 2 of those warmachines are Bolt Throwers, so I guess that offsets it. If anything I'd suggest swapping 10 Thunderers for Quarrellers, just for the variety (and flexibility).
Yeah, I know it's a lot of firepower, but it is the dwarf strength, and I'm picking each of the war machines for a specific reason. The bolt throwers when upgraded are strength seven, making them great chariot busters and big monster slayers. The grudge thrower is to help thin down big blocks of troops while the organ gun is there because it auto-hits and is great for protecting vulnerable dwarven flanks from skirmishers and fast cav.
I think I might drop the thunderers for quarrelers and drop one of the bolt throwers.
morghur does not count
Would you believe he doesn't use him? Too many points. He fields they very basic in lords/heros, and goes balls out on herds and assorted other units.
he's a goddamn sorcerer isn't he?
He's a Lutheran pastor. The perfect cover for diabolical scheming if you ask me.
I recognise a few of them.
You should send them to meeeeeee.
(Merry Christmas Everyone!)
i got a crazy batch of old empire shit (included the aforementioned War Wagon). i'm getting around to sorting out everything i got and its a decent start for sure. with the things i already had i have the following:
16x spearman (pretty sure its 16)
16x handgunners
11x archers
20x oldschool swordsmen (thats including an old hero model as a champ)
16ish old halberdiers
3x canons (2 of them not-so-great as they're the old models that are super tiny)
1x mortar (guess i could build my plastic canon kit as a mortar instead to have 2 each i guess)
helblaster volleygun
various engineers
1x knightly orders box
6-8 metal knights with crazy hammers, pretty awesome
some more plastic knights w/ lances
a shit ton of REAL oldschool plastic knights (red and yellow plastic!)
warrior priest on foot
war wagon that will be converted to a war altar
battle standard bearer on foot
BSB on horse i think
2x wizards
i really want to get a nice block of like 15-20 flagellants and the Luthor Huss model.
and yes, MERRY XMAS!
I don't really do much in-store play. I was more into Privateer Press's Hordes than I have been WHB. I've been meaning to pick it back up some though. I've been to Evolution a few times--very nice store. I'd be happy to get together for a game sometime (although I have to warn you, I'm quite the noob). I need to drop $150 or so to get my O&G list to where it needs to be. I should also finish painting my giant and boar chariot.
Or at least assemble the damn things and paint them later.
you ever seen a scraplauncher?
satan himself designed that fucker
What do people think of High Elves?
I was planning on making an army with 2 archers and 2 bolt throwers for long range engagements with multiple magic heroes using Seer (choose spells) so I can use magic abilities that freeze up mounted units, comets of cassandra on artillery lines to keep them moving, and a mobile wizard (on a reaver unit) with vauls unmaking, fortune is fickle, and curse of arrow attraction to debuff the hell out of anything he gets within 2 feet of.
Of course there'd be a spearmen guarding the center with the ranged guys with a swordsman of hoeth on one flank and a dragon prince squad on the other flank (moving near the reavers to screen for them if things get hairy).
It's all theory playing, but I'm having fun designing the army on paper
Thoughts?
So I guess, if you're into that.
I do plan on buying a varghulf & grave guard, I need the book. So the spearhead seems nice. But is the value there, really, at $!150?? When I'll probably need more skellies, more zombies, and probly more ghouls?
Anyways, your thoughts please.
"Archers really aren't that good. Take one unit of 10. Add nothing. Take a unit of 20 spearmen with full command. There are your Core slots filled. Spend the rest of the points on stuff which is a lot better.
I generally take 2 bolt throwers and find the points well spent. They're incredibly reliable for warmachines.
Swordmasters are ridiculously Killy, but die to a stiff breeze. They'll murder things in combat, its making sure they get there thats the trouble. Phoenix Guard are as defensive as SMs are offensive. Incredibly hard to kill or break, they are an awesomely solid block. White Lions strike a middle ground and are probably the best all-rounder.
Dragon Princes just plain rock.
Mages are good choices but, no matter what you do, you can't turn any one into a "monster melee dude". If anything gets into melee with a mage he is dead. Remember you have to roll for spells, so you can never depend on getting a certain spell unless you take the crystal ball thing. Even then only one mage can do it. High level spells like the Comet of Cassandora have such a high casting cost that they rarely go off, and when they do, they're often dispelled. I generally take 2 level 2 mages. One with the Jewel of Dusk and High Magic for general utility casting and a Heavens Lore Scroll Caddy to sit at the back and buff. As far as I can remember, you cannot use Second Sign of Amul to reroll miscasts, only to hit and to wounds.
My general feelings are that I like High Elves a lot.
Asur fo lyfe yos."