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The O Thread: Pecs Ahoy! [POLITICKIN']

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Posts

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Zoolander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    So, you know, I guess you could call it "scapegoating," if by "scapegoating" you mean "holding the people who were most responsible for proposition 8 passing responsible for proposition 8 passing."

    Would love to see you try and cite this.

    I thought it was common knowledge that the Mormons put by far the most $$$$$$ in the fight

    Money is one thing but votes are another. It's no secret what Deacon is saying: that on the whole Blacks and Hispanics are not really down with gays and them getting married.

    Butters on
    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
  • ZoelZoel I suppose... I'd put it on Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Butters wrote: »
    Zoolander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    So, you know, I guess you could call it "scapegoating," if by "scapegoating" you mean "holding the people who were most responsible for proposition 8 passing responsible for proposition 8 passing."

    Would love to see you try and cite this.

    I thought it was common knowledge that the Mormons put by far the most $$$$$$ in the fight

    Money is one thing but votes are another. It's no secret what Deacon is saying: that on the whole Blacks and Hispanics are not really down with gays and them getting married.

    Yeah but you can't blame them and still be good with all your liberal buddies because then you're a racist so obviously gotta blame Mormons.

    HIPPIE 101 STUFF right here.

    Zoel on
    A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
    However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
  • satansfingerssatansfingers Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    it's not really 'on the whole.'

    younger blacks and latinos voted pretty strongly against it. it's the elderly, statistically speaking.

    satansfingers on
  • DeaconBluesDeaconBlues __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2008
    Unless Thanatos can prove that the Mormons caused ~7 out of 10 blacks and ~6 of 10 latinos to vote for the prop he's full of shit, because whites were on the whole against it.

    DeaconBlues on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AneurhythmiaAneurhythmia Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    The funniest thing about prop 8 was how gay activists scapegoated Mormons rather than admit otherwise liberal black and latinos sunk them.

    Wait, can you cite this?

    Aneurhythmia on
  • DeaconBluesDeaconBlues __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2008
    This or something else....?

    DeaconBlues on
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  • AneurhythmiaAneurhythmia Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    This or something else....?

    No, your assertion about not "admitting" it.

    Aneurhythmia on
  • ZoelZoel I suppose... I'd put it on Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    The funniest thing about prop 8 was how gay activists scapegoated Mormons rather than admit otherwise liberal black and latinos sunk them.

    Wait, can you cite this?

    It'd be pretty dumb to admit blacks and hispanics sunk them, which is probably why they haven't really gone on about it. Blaming Mormons is probably almost as unwise, but at least they can use that as a selling point to drive donations in a later campaign.

    Zoel on
    A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
    However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
  • DeaconBluesDeaconBlues __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2008
    This or something else....?

    No, your assertion about not "admitting" it.

    Kinda hard to cite someone not doing something, so maybe if you showed me where black/latino churches and communities were scolded, protested, and demonized by gay activists?

    Plus there's a series of "wait not really" editorials I can dig up if you want.

    DeaconBlues on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited December 2008
    Mysst wrote: »
    also mormons are vampires

    vampires are stereotypically anti-gay in the bible

    Unknown User on
  • MysstMysst King Monkey of Hedonism IslandRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    robothero wrote: »
    Mysst wrote: »
    also mormons are vampires

    vampires are stereotypically anti-gay in the bible
    it's cause being gay is what causes GRID

    Mysst on
    ikbUJdU.jpg
  • AneurhythmiaAneurhythmia Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    maybe if you showed me where black/latino churches and communities were scolded, protested, and demonized by gay activists?
    That's hardly the same as not "admitting" it, and it's definitely not taking "a real look at how to make inroads into the black and hispanic communities."

    http://www.sovo.com/2008/11-14/view/editorial/9434.cfm
    Black voters overwhelmingly supported Prop 8, but so did white Republicans in the southern part of the state. Voter turnout in gay mecca San Francisco was among the lowest in the state, around 53 percent. The “No on 8” campaign didn’t respond quickly enough or effectively enough to the other side’s misleading attacks. The Mormon church pumped millions into the fight, putting “No on 8” organizers at a huge disadvantage.

    Gay rights advocates must now strengthen outreach to black voters and Republicans. Indeed, the lopsided support among blacks and Republicans (strange bedfellows to be sure) raises serious questions about the effectiveness of groups like Log Cabin Republicans and the National Black Justice Coalition.

    http://www.sovo.com/2008/11-7/news/national/9397.cfm
    H. Alexander Robinson, executive director of the National Black Justice Coalition, said in California there was “an unprecedented alliance” of black leaders working with the campaign to defeat Proposition 8, but the amount of time and resources following the May court ruling bringing gay nuptials to California were not optimal for winning more support from black voters.

    “We knew going in that opinions in African-American communities on the issue of marriage were difficult,” he said. “I think that the kind of long-term investments, true alliance building and on-the-ground public education that needed to take place quickly frankly didn’t happen.”

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-cannick8-2008nov08,0,3295255.story
    There's nothing a white gay person can tell me when it comes to how I as a black lesbian should talk to my community about this issue. If and when I choose to, I know how to say what needs to be said. Many black gays just haven't been convinced that this movement for marriage is about anything more than the white gays who fund it (and who, we often find, are just as racist and clueless when it comes to blacks as they claim blacks are homophobic).

    I just don't think the issue is nearly so one-sided as you suggested it is.

    Aneurhythmia on
  • DeaconBluesDeaconBlues __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2008
    That's a fair point, I guess my characterization of their reaction to Mormons should be changed from "blindly striking out like banshees" to "deliberately targeting an easily identifiable subgroup they don't politically rely on".

    Not sure if that makes it better or worse though.

    DeaconBlues on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ZoolanderZoolander Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    mormons are by far the most annoying religious group though, so its only fair
    all coming to my door wanting to talk jehovah and shit

    also, it sort of makes sense to go after the people who most vigorously campaigned against you rather than the people who voted against you because they're old and they are dumb and will die soon anyway. it's much more likely that the black and latino population can be converted than the mormons anywho, so it doesn't make sense to attack them
    fucking mormons

    Zoolander on
  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2008
    That's a fair point, I guess my characterization of their reaction to Mormons should be changed from "blindly striking out like banshees" to "deliberately targeting an easily identifiable subgroup they don't politically rely on".

    Not sure if that makes it better or worse though.
    you strike me as a practical enough person to recognize that Mormons are the sensible group to target from their perspective

    Druhim on
    belruelotterav-1.jpg
  • DeaconBluesDeaconBlues __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2008
    Zoolander wrote: »
    also, it sort of makes sense to go after the people who most vigorously campaigned against you rather than the people who voted against you because they're old and they are dumb and will die soon anyway.

    Not really, I mean if it's just an age-based cultural battle of attrition (as a few of you guys seem to be making it), then just wait a few years and try again. You're not gaining anything and you're probably pushing away the religious minorities you need.

    DeaconBlues on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ZoolanderZoolander Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Zoolander wrote: »
    also, it sort of makes sense to go after the people who most vigorously campaigned against you rather than the people who voted against you because they're old and they are dumb and will die soon anyway.

    Not really, I mean if it's just an age-based cultural battle of attrition (as a few of you guys seem to be making it), then just wait a few years and try again. You're not gaining anything and you're probably pushing away the religious minorities you need.
    that's exactly it, though. the mormons will not change any time soon because they are so hardcore against it, so its hard to push them away when they won't come near you in a hundred years
    the blacks and latinos on the other hand will eventually come to support gay marriage, so it makes zero sense to antagonize them
    plus, they didn't spend $texas against you, so there's that aspect

    which is another reason why attacking rick warren is silly because he was getting all kinds of shit from the fundies for not doing enough for prop 8
    those people are precisely the wrong people to attack

    Zoolander on
  • ZoelZoel I suppose... I'd put it on Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Zoolander wrote: »
    Zoolander wrote: »
    also, it sort of makes sense to go after the people who most vigorously campaigned against you rather than the people who voted against you because they're old and they are dumb and will die soon anyway.

    Not really, I mean if it's just an age-based cultural battle of attrition (as a few of you guys seem to be making it), then just wait a few years and try again. You're not gaining anything and you're probably pushing away the religious minorities you need.
    that's exactly it, though. the mormons will not change any time soon because they are so hardcore against it, so its hard to push them away when they won't come near you in a hundred years
    the blacks and latinos on the other hand will eventually come to support gay marriage, so it makes zero sense to antagonize them
    plus, they didn't spend $texas against you, so there's that aspect

    which is another reason why attacking rick warren is silly because he was getting all kinds of shit from the fundies for not doing enough for prop 8
    those people are precisely the wrong people to attack

    Well, blacks and latinos might never support gay marriage, but they'll probably agree with liberal gays on everything else, which can (and does) make them part of a voting bloc that would elect a pro-gay rights congressperson, although not be part of a bloc for a proposition or what have you.

    Mormons will vote for Obama when lol.

    Zoel on
    A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
    However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
  • The Black HunterThe Black Hunter The key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple, unimpeachable reason to existRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I think what the pope was saying with that gays as trees thing is more of a "Man don't be such dicks to gays try and help them" which isn't nearly as bad as "gays are trees"

    The Black Hunter on
  • ZoolanderZoolander Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    No, Ratzi is a straight up douche

    Zoolander on
  • CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    The pope still isn't exactly benevolent towards gays.

    CptKemzik on
  • Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood My baby's in there someplace She crawled right inRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    pope benedict ain't shit

    dis is john paul turf, yo

    Clint Eastwood on
  • The Black HunterThe Black Hunter The key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple, unimpeachable reason to existRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    The pope still isn't exactly benevolent towards gays.

    Yeah, but he is saying to at least treat them better than the redheaded kid in highschool

    The Black Hunter on
  • ZoolanderZoolander Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    The pope still isn't exactly benevolent towards gays.

    Yeah, but he is saying to at least treat them better than the redheaded kid in highschool

    Only because he thinks gayness can be cured while redhairdness cannot.

    Zoolander on
  • AneurhythmiaAneurhythmia Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Zoolander wrote: »
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    The pope still isn't exactly benevolent towards gays.

    Yeah, but he is saying to at least treat them better than the redheaded kid in highschool

    Only because he thinks gayness can be cured while redhairdness cannot.

    That doesn't actually matter, though. Sure Catholics left and right will try to misconstrue it to whichever moralistic ends, but alll that really matters is that they accept and forgive.

    Aneurhythmia on
  • ZoolanderZoolander Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Zoolander wrote: »
    CptKemzik wrote: »
    The pope still isn't exactly benevolent towards gays.

    Yeah, but he is saying to at least treat them better than the redheaded kid in highschool

    Only because he thinks gayness can be cured while redhairdness cannot.

    That doesn't actually matter, though. Sure Catholics left and right will try to misconstrue it to whichever moralistic ends, but alll that really matters is that they accept and forgive.
    accept it in the butt?

    Zoolander on
  • Lucky CynicLucky Cynic Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    What do you guys think about political art? Does it really have a purpose or is it just kinda lame.

    I've seen a few political abstract art pieces that are kind of thought provoking and theres some really good music out there that isn't in the usual angsty greenday "olol governments" way.


    It seems like a cool niche sort of thing, but I doubt very many people actually give a damn about it.

    Lucky Cynic on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Butters wrote: »
    Zoolander wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    So, you know, I guess you could call it "scapegoating," if by "scapegoating" you mean "holding the people who were most responsible for proposition 8 passing responsible for proposition 8 passing."
    Would love to see you try and cite this.
    I thought it was common knowledge that the Mormons put by far the most $$$$$$ in the fight
    Money is one thing but votes are another. It's no secret what Deacon is saying: that on the whole Blacks and Hispanics are not really down with gays and them getting married.
    Money is one thing, votes are another, and ground game is a third. The Mormons provided all three, blacks and Hispanics only provided one. And again, it's only old blacks and Hispanics that voted for proposition 8, whereas Mormons not only voted for it (and almost assuredly at a far higher percentage), but contributed money and man-hours.

    I mean, really, the people most responsible are the ones who ran the "No on 8" campaign, but protesting people who agree with you doesn't do much good.

    Thanatos on
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