So, you know, I guess you could call it "scapegoating," if by "scapegoating" you mean "holding the people who were most responsible for proposition 8 passing responsible for proposition 8 passing."
Would love to see you try and cite this.
I thought it was common knowledge that the Mormons put by far the most $$$$$$ in the fight
Money is one thing but votes are another. It's no secret what Deacon is saying: that on the whole Blacks and Hispanics are not really down with gays and them getting married.
So, you know, I guess you could call it "scapegoating," if by "scapegoating" you mean "holding the people who were most responsible for proposition 8 passing responsible for proposition 8 passing."
Would love to see you try and cite this.
I thought it was common knowledge that the Mormons put by far the most $$$$$$ in the fight
Money is one thing but votes are another. It's no secret what Deacon is saying: that on the whole Blacks and Hispanics are not really down with gays and them getting married.
Yeah but you can't blame them and still be good with all your liberal buddies because then you're a racist so obviously gotta blame Mormons.
HIPPIE 101 STUFF right here.
Zoel on
A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
Unless Thanatos can prove that the Mormons caused ~7 out of 10 blacks and ~6 of 10 latinos to vote for the prop he's full of shit, because whites were on the whole against it.
The funniest thing about prop 8 was how gay activists scapegoated Mormons rather than admit otherwise liberal black and latinos sunk them.
Wait, can you cite this?
It'd be pretty dumb to admit blacks and hispanics sunk them, which is probably why they haven't really gone on about it. Blaming Mormons is probably almost as unwise, but at least they can use that as a selling point to drive donations in a later campaign.
Zoel on
A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
Kinda hard to cite someone not doing something, so maybe if you showed me where black/latino churches and communities were scolded, protested, and demonized by gay activists?
Plus there's a series of "wait not really" editorials I can dig up if you want.
maybe if you showed me where black/latino churches and communities were scolded, protested, and demonized by gay activists?
That's hardly the same as not "admitting" it, and it's definitely not taking "a real look at how to make inroads into the black and hispanic communities."
Black voters overwhelmingly supported Prop 8, but so did white Republicans in the southern part of the state. Voter turnout in gay mecca San Francisco was among the lowest in the state, around 53 percent. The “No on 8” campaign didn’t respond quickly enough or effectively enough to the other side’s misleading attacks. The Mormon church pumped millions into the fight, putting “No on 8” organizers at a huge disadvantage.
Gay rights advocates must now strengthen outreach to black voters and Republicans. Indeed, the lopsided support among blacks and Republicans (strange bedfellows to be sure) raises serious questions about the effectiveness of groups like Log Cabin Republicans and the National Black Justice Coalition.
H. Alexander Robinson, executive director of the National Black Justice Coalition, said in California there was “an unprecedented alliance” of black leaders working with the campaign to defeat Proposition 8, but the amount of time and resources following the May court ruling bringing gay nuptials to California were not optimal for winning more support from black voters.
“We knew going in that opinions in African-American communities on the issue of marriage were difficult,” he said. “I think that the kind of long-term investments, true alliance building and on-the-ground public education that needed to take place quickly frankly didn’t happen.”
There's nothing a white gay person can tell me when it comes to how I as a black lesbian should talk to my community about this issue. If and when I choose to, I know how to say what needs to be said. Many black gays just haven't been convinced that this movement for marriage is about anything more than the white gays who fund it (and who, we often find, are just as racist and clueless when it comes to blacks as they claim blacks are homophobic).
I just don't think the issue is nearly so one-sided as you suggested it is.
That's a fair point, I guess my characterization of their reaction to Mormons should be changed from "blindly striking out like banshees" to "deliberately targeting an easily identifiable subgroup they don't politically rely on".
mormons are by far the most annoying religious group though, so its only fair
all coming to my door wanting to talk jehovah and shit
also, it sort of makes sense to go after the people who most vigorously campaigned against you rather than the people who voted against you because they're old and they are dumb and will die soon anyway. it's much more likely that the black and latino population can be converted than the mormons anywho, so it doesn't make sense to attack them
fucking mormons
That's a fair point, I guess my characterization of their reaction to Mormons should be changed from "blindly striking out like banshees" to "deliberately targeting an easily identifiable subgroup they don't politically rely on".
Not sure if that makes it better or worse though.
you strike me as a practical enough person to recognize that Mormons are the sensible group to target from their perspective
also, it sort of makes sense to go after the people who most vigorously campaigned against you rather than the people who voted against you because they're old and they are dumb and will die soon anyway.
Not really, I mean if it's just an age-based cultural battle of attrition (as a few of you guys seem to be making it), then just wait a few years and try again. You're not gaining anything and you're probably pushing away the religious minorities you need.
also, it sort of makes sense to go after the people who most vigorously campaigned against you rather than the people who voted against you because they're old and they are dumb and will die soon anyway.
Not really, I mean if it's just an age-based cultural battle of attrition (as a few of you guys seem to be making it), then just wait a few years and try again. You're not gaining anything and you're probably pushing away the religious minorities you need.
that's exactly it, though. the mormons will not change any time soon because they are so hardcore against it, so its hard to push them away when they won't come near you in a hundred years
the blacks and latinos on the other hand will eventually come to support gay marriage, so it makes zero sense to antagonize them
plus, they didn't spend $texas against you, so there's that aspect
which is another reason why attacking rick warren is silly because he was getting all kinds of shit from the fundies for not doing enough for prop 8
those people are precisely the wrong people to attack
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ZoelI suppose... I'd put it onRegistered Userregular
also, it sort of makes sense to go after the people who most vigorously campaigned against you rather than the people who voted against you because they're old and they are dumb and will die soon anyway.
Not really, I mean if it's just an age-based cultural battle of attrition (as a few of you guys seem to be making it), then just wait a few years and try again. You're not gaining anything and you're probably pushing away the religious minorities you need.
that's exactly it, though. the mormons will not change any time soon because they are so hardcore against it, so its hard to push them away when they won't come near you in a hundred years
the blacks and latinos on the other hand will eventually come to support gay marriage, so it makes zero sense to antagonize them
plus, they didn't spend $texas against you, so there's that aspect
which is another reason why attacking rick warren is silly because he was getting all kinds of shit from the fundies for not doing enough for prop 8
those people are precisely the wrong people to attack
Well, blacks and latinos might never support gay marriage, but they'll probably agree with liberal gays on everything else, which can (and does) make them part of a voting bloc that would elect a pro-gay rights congressperson, although not be part of a bloc for a proposition or what have you.
Mormons will vote for Obama when lol.
Zoel on
A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
0
The Black HunterThe key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple,unimpeachable reason to existRegistered Userregular
edited December 2008
I think what the pope was saying with that gays as trees thing is more of a "Man don't be such dicks to gays try and help them" which isn't nearly as bad as "gays are trees"
The pope still isn't exactly benevolent towards gays.
Yeah, but he is saying to at least treat them better than the redheaded kid in highschool
Only because he thinks gayness can be cured while redhairdness cannot.
That doesn't actually matter, though. Sure Catholics left and right will try to misconstrue it to whichever moralistic ends, but alll that really matters is that they accept and forgive.
The pope still isn't exactly benevolent towards gays.
Yeah, but he is saying to at least treat them better than the redheaded kid in highschool
Only because he thinks gayness can be cured while redhairdness cannot.
That doesn't actually matter, though. Sure Catholics left and right will try to misconstrue it to whichever moralistic ends, but alll that really matters is that they accept and forgive.
What do you guys think about political art? Does it really have a purpose or is it just kinda lame.
I've seen a few political abstract art pieces that are kind of thought provoking and theres some really good music out there that isn't in the usual angsty greenday "olol governments" way.
It seems like a cool niche sort of thing, but I doubt very many people actually give a damn about it.
So, you know, I guess you could call it "scapegoating," if by "scapegoating" you mean "holding the people who were most responsible for proposition 8 passing responsible for proposition 8 passing."
Would love to see you try and cite this.
I thought it was common knowledge that the Mormons put by far the most $$$$$$ in the fight
Money is one thing but votes are another. It's no secret what Deacon is saying: that on the whole Blacks and Hispanics are not really down with gays and them getting married.
Money is one thing, votes are another, and ground game is a third. The Mormons provided all three, blacks and Hispanics only provided one. And again, it's only old blacks and Hispanics that voted for proposition 8, whereas Mormons not only voted for it (and almost assuredly at a far higher percentage), but contributed money and man-hours.
I mean, really, the people most responsible are the ones who ran the "No on 8" campaign, but protesting people who agree with you doesn't do much good.
Posts
Money is one thing but votes are another. It's no secret what Deacon is saying: that on the whole Blacks and Hispanics are not really down with gays and them getting married.
Yeah but you can't blame them and still be good with all your liberal buddies because then you're a racist so obviously gotta blame Mormons.
HIPPIE 101 STUFF right here.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
younger blacks and latinos voted pretty strongly against it. it's the elderly, statistically speaking.
Wait, can you cite this?
No, your assertion about not "admitting" it.
It'd be pretty dumb to admit blacks and hispanics sunk them, which is probably why they haven't really gone on about it. Blaming Mormons is probably almost as unwise, but at least they can use that as a selling point to drive donations in a later campaign.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
Kinda hard to cite someone not doing something, so maybe if you showed me where black/latino churches and communities were scolded, protested, and demonized by gay activists?
Plus there's a series of "wait not really" editorials I can dig up if you want.
vampires are stereotypically anti-gay in the bible
http://www.sovo.com/2008/11-14/view/editorial/9434.cfm
http://www.sovo.com/2008/11-7/news/national/9397.cfm
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-cannick8-2008nov08,0,3295255.story
I just don't think the issue is nearly so one-sided as you suggested it is.
Not sure if that makes it better or worse though.
all coming to my door wanting to talk jehovah and shit
also, it sort of makes sense to go after the people who most vigorously campaigned against you rather than the people who voted against you because they're old and they are dumb and will die soon anyway. it's much more likely that the black and latino population can be converted than the mormons anywho, so it doesn't make sense to attack them
fucking mormons
Not really, I mean if it's just an age-based cultural battle of attrition (as a few of you guys seem to be making it), then just wait a few years and try again. You're not gaining anything and you're probably pushing away the religious minorities you need.
the blacks and latinos on the other hand will eventually come to support gay marriage, so it makes zero sense to antagonize them
plus, they didn't spend $texas against you, so there's that aspect
which is another reason why attacking rick warren is silly because he was getting all kinds of shit from the fundies for not doing enough for prop 8
those people are precisely the wrong people to attack
Well, blacks and latinos might never support gay marriage, but they'll probably agree with liberal gays on everything else, which can (and does) make them part of a voting bloc that would elect a pro-gay rights congressperson, although not be part of a bloc for a proposition or what have you.
Mormons will vote for Obama when lol.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
dis is john paul turf, yo
Yeah, but he is saying to at least treat them better than the redheaded kid in highschool
Only because he thinks gayness can be cured while redhairdness cannot.
That doesn't actually matter, though. Sure Catholics left and right will try to misconstrue it to whichever moralistic ends, but alll that really matters is that they accept and forgive.
I've seen a few political abstract art pieces that are kind of thought provoking and theres some really good music out there that isn't in the usual angsty greenday "olol governments" way.
It seems like a cool niche sort of thing, but I doubt very many people actually give a damn about it.
I mean, really, the people most responsible are the ones who ran the "No on 8" campaign, but protesting people who agree with you doesn't do much good.