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Israel Prepared to move ground forces into Gaza
Reckless
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Registered User regular
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm
Looks like with the Cease-Fire ending, Israel's making a direct military effort to get something done about Hamas.
Looks like with the Cease-Fire ending, Israel's making a direct military effort to get something done about Hamas.
The BBC wrote:Israel set for prolonged Gaza op
Israel says it will widen its attacks on Hamas if necessary to stop the Palestinian militant group firing rockets from the Gaza Strip.
Israeli F-16 bombers hit targets across the Gaza Strip on Saturday, killing at least 225 people, local medics say.
"If what we're doing in the air will not suffice we'll continue on the ground," Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak told BBC News.
Israel's air raids were the heaviest on the Gaza Strip for decades.
Most of those killed were policemen in the Hamas militant movement, which controls Gaza, but women and children also died, Gaza officials said.
About 700 others were wounded, as missiles struck security compounds and militant bases, the officials added.
Israel said it was responding to an escalation in rocket attacks from Gaza and would bomb "as long as necessary". Air raids have continued into the night, while Israeli tanks are deployed just outside Gaza.
Israeli PM Ehud Olmert said the operation "may take some time" - but he pledged to avoid a humanitarian crisis.
"It's not going to last a few days,'' he said in a televised statement, flanked by Defence Minister Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni.
Staff at the main hospital in Gaza said operating rooms were overflowing, it was running out of medicine, and there was not enough surgeons to cope.
'Time for fighting'
The raids came days after a truce with Hamas expired.
Mr Barak said "there is a time for calm and a time for fighting, and now the time has come to fight". He told the BBC it was "not realistic" to call off the operation at this stage.
The exiled leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshaal, called for a new intifada, or uprising, against Israel, in response to the attacks.
The movement's Gaza leader, Ismail Haniyeh, said there would be no white flags and no surrender. "Palestine has never witnessed an uglier massacre," he said.
Israel hit targets across Gaza, striking in the territory's main population centres, including Gaza City in the north and the southern towns of Khan Younis and Rafah.
Mr Olmert said "we tried to avoid, and I think quite successfully, to hit any uninvolved people - we attacked only targets that are part of the Hamas organisations".
Hamas said all of its security compounds in Gaza were destroyed by the air strikes, which Israel said hit some 40 targets.
Hamas vowed to carry out revenge attacks on Israel and fired Qassam rockets into Israeli territory as an immediate reply.
One Israeli was killed by a rocket strike on the town of Netivot, 20 kilometres (12 miles) east of Gaza, doctors said.
Ceasefire urged
The air strikes come amid rumours that an Israeli ground operation is imminent.
Israeli television said on Saturday evening that Israeli troops were massing on the Gaza border "in preparation for a supplementary ground offensive". The report has not been confirmed by independent sources.
US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice accused Hamas of having triggered the new bout of violence.
"The United States is deeply concerned about the escalating violence in Gaza," she said in a statement.
"We strongly condemn the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel and hold Hamas responsible for breaking the ceasefire and for the renewal of violence there. The ceasefire must be restored immediately and fully respected."
UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon also urged an immediate halt to the violence, condemning what he called Israel's "excessive use of force leading to the killing and injuring of civilians" and "the ongoing rocket attacks by Palestinian militants".
Calls for a ceasefire also came from Middle East envoy Tony Blair and the French EU presidency.
Hamas bases destroyed
Palestinian militants frequently fire rockets against Israeli towns from inside the Gaza Strip; large numbers of rocket and mortar shells have been fired at Israel in recent days.
The BBC's Katya Adler in Jerusalem says the timing of Israel's operation is significant, as Israeli politicians are keen to score points ahead of a general election in February.
A Hamas police spokesman, Islam Shahwan, said one of the Israeli raids targeted a police compound in Gaza City where a graduation ceremony for new personnel was taking place.
At least a dozen bodies of men in black uniforms were photographed at the Hamas police headquarters in Gaza City.
Most of the dead and injured were said to be in Gaza City. The head of Gaza's police forces, Tawfik Jaber, was among those killed.
Mr Olmert appealed to Palestinians in Gaza, saying "You - the citizens of Gaza - are not our enemies. Hamas, Jihad and the other terrorist organisations are your enemies, as they are our enemies.
"They have brought disaster on you and they try to bring disaster to the people of Israel. And it is our common goal to make every possible effort to stop them."
It is the worst attack in Gaza since 1967 in terms of the number of Palestinian casualties, a senior analyst told the BBC in Jerusalem.
Although a six-month truce between Hamas and Israel was agreed earlier this year, it was regularly under strain and was allowed to lapse when it expired this month.
Mosques issued urgent appeals for people to donate blood on Saturday and Hamas sources told the BBC's Rushdi Abou Alouf in Gaza that hospitals were soon full.
In the West Bank, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas - whose Fatah faction was ousted from Gaza by Hamas in 2007 - condemned the attacks and called for restraint.
Egypt opened its border crossing to the Gaza Strip at Rafah to absorb and treat some of those injured in the south of the territory.
Palestinians staged demonstrations in the West Bank cities of Ramallah and Hebron, and there were some scuffles with Israeli troops there.
Hamas blamed Israel for the end of the ceasefire, saying it had not respected its terms, including the lifting of the blockade under which little more than humanitarian aid has been allowed into Gaza.
Israel said it initially began easing the blockade, but this was halted when Hamas failed to fulfil what Israel says were agreed conditions, including ending all rocket fire and halting weapons smuggling.
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Thing is, there seems to be a fairly serious willingness on Israel's part to move soldiers into Gaza, which would make things a little more interesting than previous skirmishes in the recent past.
Do you think Palestinian support of Hamas comes from fear of that organization or actual hatred for Israeli, who's blockades have been making daily life a struggle?
I'm not saying I back Hamas, just making a point.
Already happened.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7800985.stm
Do something that anybody can see the results coming from a mile away, shame on you. Do it a million times, Jesus Christ, you actually think you are going to magically solve the fucking problem in any way this time?
I think that they're just going to destroy everything of military value in the Gaza strip.
That's the only thing that the Israelis could do that would actually accomplish their stated objectives.
Palestinians hate Israelis. They don't want to be any part of the country.
The Palestinian Territories are a constant source of problem for Israel. All the time.
Yet, it's not possible for Palestinian Territories to be their own country. Why? Is it because even if they were, the attacks on Israel wouldn't stop anyway because they want Jerusalem or something? Because Israel wants to keep every piece of territory it has (despite showing no interest in making life there better)? Is it because if it was it's own country it would be ruled by Hamas and U.S./Israel wouldn't like that?
I don't really see this alternative being worse then the current situation, so can someone tell me why this isn't happening?
Israel is betting pretty strategic about their bombing. There's going to be civilians killed undoubtedly, but if the Israeli Air Force wanted to "bomb the living crap out of everything," we wouldn't be seeing the very low numbers of civilian casualties that have been reported thus far.
Yeah, they've had their own diaspora. As corny as it is, the episode of the West Wing where they basically do their own version of the Camp David Accords had a really great way of pointing out how similar the Jews and Palestinians really are.
Man, why can't a huge country like Russia just sell stretches of land to all these displaced people wanting their own country? It's not like they need half of their territory anyway. "Here, take a nice piece of Siberia. 20 times the size of Israel. Aren't you happy? Pay in cash and we throw in couple of extra square miles. Sure, Siberia isn't all that great, but it probably beats the hellish desert with no food, water or electricity anyway. The couple of coat-herding villagers that live there won't mind where they live, they are probably happy that the place is a bit more populated. Oh, we are used to having cut down in size a little, nothing compared to the fall of the Soviet Union."
yes, it is a joke
My thoughts go out to any innocent parties harmed.
Secondly, as an Israeli, you're bound to have a more educated and more personal stance on the issue. Please, if you can, let us know what the dealio is.
I'm an Israeli-American, and currently I'm a few thousand miles from Israel, safe. Thanks, though.
With what, specifically?
They kinda tried something like that that, it didn't work out well at all
Well...at least there are no constant bombings and a horribly opressed minority.
And it's bigger then Israel too.
That's quite the brazen statement. Do you really think antisemitism in Germany went to nil once the Russians raised their flag over Berlin?
Oh, I didn't say nil, but it was on the way out across Europe. Nazism was the last hurrah of anti-semitism in Europe; now, it was a big fucking last hurrah and it was a really fucking nasty last hurrah. And, yes, I know anti-semitism persisted in Germany for a while afterwards, but it was nowhere near as violent as the Palestinian/Israeli sentiments.
I don't think anyone is comparing them to Nazis.
Still, what is being done to Palestinians is horrible. I don't think anyone has a valid argument to that either. There isn't really another first world country where a minority is being opressed in such a way.
The comparisons are being made, some more flagrant than others.
I won't speak for other conflicts of the sort (I don't feel comfortable discussing things about which I find myself ignorant), but I'll certainly agree that what is being done to the Palestinians is horrible.
Yeah, you're right. It's sort of a hindsight is 20/20 type of thing. There were a handful of people who were saying that a Jewish state in Palestine was a really bad idea, but it was mostly ignored. In hindsight, I think it would have made a LOT more sense to put them in Germany.
I really hope you don't think I'm making that comparison, because, well, I'm not.
You didn't, directly- but what you said (that the antisemitic vestiges in Germany after WW2 "weren't as violent as the I-P sentiments" (paraphrase)) is the exact sort of segue employed by people who walk that line. I don't think you meant it that way, but I was referencing your post to say "there are people who extrapolate this". I hear all the time:
"The situation is so ironic, given the fact that they have the power to do what they're doing because of Nazi persecution..."
Put yourself into the shoes of a jew who just made it out of a concentration camp.
At this point you are most likely in an internment camp set up by the allied forces because nobody knows what to do with you.
Then you here the news.
"Hey, you know those guys who killed your loved ones and brought you to the brink of death? You're going to have a country where you live right next to them! It'll be great!"
Nobody wanted to be in Germany, or Poland, or anywhere. Anyone who could get out got out. It had something to do with fear, but they just wanted to clear out.
I know that you're just going to think I'm hitting you over the head with this, but the Nazis killed two thirds of the European Jewish population. If I'm in an internment camp I'm taking whatever boat goes somewhere else. Israel, America, whatever. Staying would not have worked out.
And hell, this isn't an exageration when the time period is considered.
I suppose, but I definitely didn't mean it that way. All I'm saying is that I think a European Jewish state would have had tension to start off with, but it would have been a lot less violent and heated than the situation in Israel. And I do know that the mainstream sentiment in Israel is definitely not one of universal hate between Jews and Palestinians, but you can't ignore that the conflict there is heated and it is motivated by the hatred of some people. All I'm saying is that I don't think any prevailing hatred in Europe would be expressed quite so violently.
Israel has a few extra advantages here. They have a full blockade already operational and Hamas is hurting for everything other than guns. It just depends on how ugly Israel is willing to make this look.
According to one of my palestian friends (grew up there, in the US for school), Gaza is fairly well known among the community to be a ticking time bomb and has since Hamas took over, and a lot of the people with the means to leave have left.
It's one of those places that you just Don't Go, and the people still there are the people that are hardcore Hamas, or the people too poor to leave and have no choice.