The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Gays and Religion: In Which We Learn That Rend != Rent
Rent
I'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
I'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
This is a split from the 'Rick Warren at the Inauguration' thread. I felt it was an interesting enough question to warrant its own thread. All statements that follow are my own opinion/interpretation of my faith.
To quickly answer your first question, before arriving at the meat of your second, I do believe that God created the Big Bang, which led to the creation of the universe, the solar systems, galaxies, Earth, etc etc etc. Since no scientist (to my knowledge) has come up with a credible theory to what actually caused the Big Bang, and its all conjecture at this point, I don't really think I'm really harming anything/being intellectually dishonest by believing so.
Not that I believe that 'God caused the Big Bang' should be taught in Science class or something, that's just personally what I believe.
I don't think God controlled evolution, because then it wouldn't be evolution- it'd be a really really long version of creationism. I mean, God allowed one of His creatures free will so I assume he's been a pretty hands-off guy thus far.
To answer your second, and to get to the thread's topic, if it were proven 100% that homosexuality was genetic, I (and probably a bunch of other liberal Catholics, which from my experiences there are quite a lot of us) would probably lobby the Church to remove homosexuality as a sin. Of course, this would probably merit a rewrite or at least a reinterpretation of the Bible not yet seen before- probably something like Galileo times 2- but I imagine that eventually the Church would bend and homosexuality would stop being a sin.
Would God 'allow' a genetic mutation like homosexuality? Well, He's 'allowed' alcoholism, crack babies, and people like someone I'm not going to Godwin this thread by naming, so yeah I would say God would allow a genetic mutation like homosexuality.
Qingu, in all honesty, fascinates me as a poster, because I'm a very religious person and he is, well, not. I find his complete 180 degree difference in opinion than me is quite enlightening and a lot of the time illuminates the other side of my beliefs.
A bit of my religious backstory; I was not raised Catholic. I was actually raised Jodo Shinsu Buddhist and converted to Catholicism and got baptised when I was in my early teens. I do try to be critical and questioning of my own faith, and I don't necessarily accept many of my Church's teachings as set-in-stone true. In particular, I also believe that many of the Bible's teachings are stictly metaphorical and not literally true.
I do not believe that the Earth was created 10k years ago. I do not believe it was made in 7 days. I believe in evolution. I don't believe a flood washed over the Earth for 40 days and 40 nights. So I find this concept that I'm some sort of kool-aid drinking bible thumper to be ridiculous. I chose my faith, and I would never be so crass as to force my religious beliefs on other people.
I experienced that demagoguery when I was a Buddhist. Shit pissed me off...many Christians would openly mock my faith at school.
Thus, I inherently believe that people shouldn't fuck with other people's religions and I am very strongly in support of a completely and total seperation of church and state.
Interesting.
Question for you: Do you fit creationism isn't an evolutionist/scientific framework, or do you reject creationism completely? As in a "who knows how long the original seven 'days' actually lasted" kind of thing?
And if it were discovered, concretely, that sexual attraction (and with it homosexuality) was genetic in nature - completely, 100% genetic, and not a choice - would you still consider it a sin? Do you think God would allow such a mutation that would be sinful by default? Or do you think God is not so omnipotent that he is able to control all of evolution? Or what? This is assuming we are able to say with scientific certainty or near-certainty that sexual disposition is a genetic trait.
This isn't rhetoric so please don't read any tone into my questions. I am genuinely curious as to your answers. And if Qingu tries to elbow in I'll shoot him with my nerf gun.
To quickly answer your first question, before arriving at the meat of your second, I do believe that God created the Big Bang, which led to the creation of the universe, the solar systems, galaxies, Earth, etc etc etc. Since no scientist (to my knowledge) has come up with a credible theory to what actually caused the Big Bang, and its all conjecture at this point, I don't really think I'm really harming anything/being intellectually dishonest by believing so.
Not that I believe that 'God caused the Big Bang' should be taught in Science class or something, that's just personally what I believe.
I don't think God controlled evolution, because then it wouldn't be evolution- it'd be a really really long version of creationism. I mean, God allowed one of His creatures free will so I assume he's been a pretty hands-off guy thus far.
To answer your second, and to get to the thread's topic, if it were proven 100% that homosexuality was genetic, I (and probably a bunch of other liberal Catholics, which from my experiences there are quite a lot of us) would probably lobby the Church to remove homosexuality as a sin. Of course, this would probably merit a rewrite or at least a reinterpretation of the Bible not yet seen before- probably something like Galileo times 2- but I imagine that eventually the Church would bend and homosexuality would stop being a sin.
Would God 'allow' a genetic mutation like homosexuality? Well, He's 'allowed' alcoholism, crack babies, and people like someone I'm not going to Godwin this thread by naming, so yeah I would say God would allow a genetic mutation like homosexuality.
Rent on
0
Posts
My point was was that God has allowed people easier access to sinning before, not that they're equatable, which they are not.
Funny, most of the Episcopal Church feels the same way. We even have a gay bishop and (most) members of the church don't care.
Steam | Twitter
And masturbation, too? If that's the case it seems masturbation should be exactly as bad as gay sex, since they're bad for the same reasons.
But even artificial birth control(ie: pills and condoms) can fail, and thus, the possibility of pregnancy still exists there as well. So it should be just as permisible as the rythym method.
Yeah, the church is really down on masturbation. They would be the exact same, if society didn't dictate that a person be STRICTLY a homosexual or heterosexual. You see, pretty much all sex that isn't missionary position is actually called Sodomy. All sodomy is a sin. Before the modern era, if a guy had sex with a man, it wasn't considered homosexuality: it was the same as having sex with a sheep or your buddies wife. It was all sodomy, and was a sin of lust.
This is why we need to do away with sexuality.
This was my first thought in response to your question and seems pretty apt.
tl;dr: God fucked some shit up because He didn't like Sodom and Gomorrah. Origin of the term "sodomy" results from this, everyone learns BUTTSHECKS IS BAD, MMMMKAY?
Also, Leviticus 18, and Genesis with Adam and Eve implies that God created Men and Women for specific purposes.
Yeah, I technically have to confess it every time I....uh...confess. But I thought I would freak my priest out if I kept on saying it so now I just feel really really bad about it at Mass.
Wait, you aren't an creationist, but you still use Genesis as a proof?
Well shoot, I wish more people felt that way. The most important part of The Bible is about loving everyone and everything for what they are, no matter what that may be. Seems like Conservative Christianity is more concerned about purging everything they disagree with instead of promoting peace and love.
So basically what I'm saying is I hate what American Christianity as a whole has become. It took something pure and twisted it into a religion of xenophobia, elitism and intolerance.
I think this is how every Catholic I know operates.
Steam | Twitter
It's statements like these that are starting to convince me that religion is just some mass form masochism.
:P
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
One of our Bishops here in Finland said a nice thing on a presentation, when talking about if gay/female priests and so on should be allowed:
"It's the message itself that matters, not who preaches it."
I think a lot of religious should maybe take that on account.
What does this mean, exactly? Because I'm a Christian and I don't hate anyone. The Bible, more specifically the teachings of Jesus, are about love and acceptance. You can accuse it of being a religion based on fear and bigotry but you couldn't be more wrong.
You know who I hate?
The jews
and protestants
but mostly the jews
a) More time to masturbate
b) I'm trying to avoid: "...it's been 15 years since my last confession. Okay, well...one thing I guess is I've, um, masturbated 150,000 times in the last 15 years..."
I still think it's a sin, a lot of the time.
Like, when I eat my brothers candy. I mean, god damn it tastes so good when it's guilty candy
Katharine Schori, our Presiding Bishop (head of the Episcopal Church), once responded to a question about the gay Bishop by saying "Does it affect your life here in Paducah? No? Then don't worry about it."
Steam | Twitter
Sometimes I wonder why Christians just don't drop the Old Testament. Very little of the Bible as whole is about love and acceptance. I love the book itself from a literary perspective, but aside from some parts with Jesus and some of the Disciples it's not really a good source of morality these days...:|
That shows very little understanding of what Jesus means in the Bible. Jesus is a fulfillment of the covenant of the Hebrew Scriptures.
It's useful context, I think.
Edit: Pods said it, but with more specific words.
Steam | Twitter
Well yeah, it wasn't a completely serious suggestion. But for some reason these days, I hear the OT being quoted far often then the NT...and I think it misses the whole point of Christianity.
Well most of the Old Testament is just about the history of the world. It's often violent and dark, which reflects the kind of time it was. But there are so many people in The Bible that lead good lives we can learn from. Abraham, Moses, Joseph...
http://www.newsweek.com/id/172653
Of course not, yet the religious opponents of gay marriage would have it be so.
Even Obama spouts the same old, tired, traditionalist bullshit when it comes to gay marriage so I thought we'd have to start pulling finger nails to get the media to look at any gay rights issue objectively. I was flabberghasted when I saw this while standing in the checkout line at the grocery store.
Well, yeah, that's fundamentalists for you!
Just sayin'
I meant to answer the question "why are homosexual acts a sin" as in, "what justification does the church have to believe God intends homosexuality to be a sin?" nor a proof of my belief that homosexuality is a sin.
I'm happy, because it seems like a lot of strong voices are starting to take up this as their crusade, and by all counts it seems like it's something the world may follow through with. It's gaining momentum and people aren't letting it get squashed by fundies anymore.
I've been thinking about it, and I think Obama was smart to take the stance he took while campaigning. I didn't agree with it, but we're just on the cusp of an anti-anti-homosexuality movement here. I think he would have lost many heterosexual liberals still uneasy about homosexuality and fringe Christians who were teetering toward a Democrat vote if he or Biden came out saying that he was willing to redefine gay marriage. What he did was essentially agreed with McCain's line and turned sexuality into as much of a non-issue for the Presidential campaign as possible.
Yes, I would have preferred if he could have tackled the problem and no, I don't know if he really doesn't believe what he was saying...maybe he does. But I have a feeling that if this builds momentum we can see some Presidential support from Obama on this issue within a few years.
I kind of like this point of view. I don't think any laws should be passed on it whatsoever and think the homosexuals of the world should afforded marriage, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness... but people are allowed the ability to like or not like things.
Like Quingo obviously HATES evangelicals. Probably as much as they hate gay people. He should be allowed his hatred.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
And that's why I think the better view is that, as far as I can tell, homosexuality between two consenting adults doesn't cause any harm to me or anyone else, and thus shouldn't be anyone's damn business but the couple themselves.
Also, I want to make clear- I don't think that the government should mess with people's personal lives. Gays not being afforded the same rights as straight people is a gross oversight of justice.
Everyone should have the right to his or her own beliefs, but no one should have the right to be a self-righteous twat about it.
This doesn't make sense. What is homosexuality between two consenting adults? Talking about how much they want to have sex with men and never ever ever ever anybody else? I believe you meant to say consensual sex between two people of the same sex. well, the Church might say that it is harming the babies that should be produced from sex why not?
No probs
Also, I agree with Zombiemambo that religion should be more about forgiveness, love, and acceptance of other cultures but at the same time I believe religion should also function as a moral compass, and therefore should list what we as humans can not do.