Electrical Wiring Question [SOLVED]

Big Dookie

Alright this is kind of embarrassing because I am graduating with an electrical engineering degree in May, but I have a question about wiring for a light fixture in my house. I admittedly haven't done much (any) residential electrical work, but we'll be moving soon after I graduate and we're trying to do some home upgrades to get the house ready to sell, which means I'll be doing a lot of this kind of stuff over the next few months. So, here's my question.

We had a ceiling fan in our kitchen, but it was kind of unnecessary there and we want to replace it with a nice chandelier light fixture. I knew before going in to it generally how residential wiring works, and I also knew that this particular fan was wired such that only the light was controlled by the wall switch, and the fan itself was on a separate circuit that could be operated independently of the light via a pull string. So my initial thought going into it is "one hot wire for the switch, one hot wire for the fan, two neutral wires (or maybe one common neutral? I was unsure how this would be), and a ground wire." However, after pulling the fan down, I see this in the box:



That is looking up inside the box. For the most part it was what I expected, but the two white wires connected together on the right side of the picture threw me off a bit. Now, I have to admit that I forgot to make a note of where all the wires were connected initially to the fan, but it was heavy and I was holding it mostly by myself and I only cared about disconnecting it and putting it down at that point.

So the question is, does this make any sense to you guys? The black and white wires on the bottom left of the diagram appear to be coming from the same source, and at first glance they looked like the likely candidate for the wall switch. I know I know, I shouldn't guess, but I didn't have a multimeter and I was under pressure to get it done. So I wired the light to those two wires and the ground and capped off the second black wire. However, unsure what the purpose was of the two white wires connected together on the right side, I disconnected them and capped them off individually. When I turned the breaker back on, the light of course didn't work, and nothing else on the breaker worked either.

Any idea on how this wiring works? My guess is that I need to reconnect the two wires on the right side and just cap them, but I'm not completely sure that's the solution and I don't want to short something I shouldn't be shorting. If anyone has come across this before, I would greatly appreciate your help. I'm going to try and fix it in the morning using a multimeter, so if you guys need more information and I still can't get it working, I'll post my findings then. Sorry I can't provide more info, but I had to kind of cut the installation short before coming to work today, but thanks in advance for any advice you can provide based on what I have here.

fuelish

If you knew the colors of the wires they were connected to this would be easier. Can you remember what the blue wire went to? That is for the light.

Big Dookie

I know, I didn't think about it until after I already started taking the fan down, and at that point I was more concerned with just getting them all undone and putting it down because it was so heavy. Dumb mistake, but ah well. But no, I don't remember honestly.

I should be able to figure out which set of wires is connected to the wall switch using a multimeter, so that won't be too big an issue. I guess my main question is what the deal is with the two neutral wires connected together on the right side of the diagram there. I haven't seen anything like that before, and was wondering if anyone possibly had. Separating them and capping them apparently opens the entire circuit that breaker is connected to, but it doesn't seem like I should even have access to that type of connection in a normal outlet box for a light fixture.

fuelish

It is possible they are just in the box because it was a convenient spot to do a splice and the splices have to be in a box to meet code(Also helps when you are looking for them).
I live in a 100 year old house and some of thhe wiring choices are pretty odd. Not color coded, two wire and three wire mixed, often a meter is the only way to figure it out.

strakha_7

That's a puzzle alright. I'm an apprentice sparky so here's where I'd start (well, I'd have started with a meter :P )

I'll preface all this saying normally we'd run a single 14/3 wire to a box meant to have a fan on it. So... yeah.

Is it loomex (white or black sheathing (if black it may have some paper showing where the cable comes in to the box))? It's been in use for some time. Or is it really old, like knob and tube old? That old school knob+tube is messed up. I'm guessing from your diagram that this is truly ancient wiring, because that's one white wire too many for the number of blacks you have in there.

My $.02:

One of the whites on the right leads to the panel, one leads to the rest of the circuit. And it looks like a short third piece was spliced in to this, is that correct? If so it's probably meant to be the neutral.

The two blacks are one constant power and one switchleg, as you suspected, for the fan and light components, respectively. You need to figure that out.

And my only guess for the white on the left is someone ran another white to the box not knowing it had a neutral already, or maybe not knowing that you don't need two neutrals for a ceiling fan (like you, no offense intended though!)

But, trust the meter, not me. Draw things out. Hopefully your breaker is such that it can handle a few throws and breaks as you work through it

Mushiwulf

Well, the white on the left could also be either the switchleg or the power for the switch, depending on what wires are in the box with the switch. I would make sure to test the wires for power before anything else. Relying on color coding in this situation could lead to burnt up equipment or injury. There are too many variables.

Big Dookie

Alright guys, thanks for the advice, using your comments and a meter I was able to work through it. Turns out there was actually another black wire up in the box I didn't see at first, and when I pulled it down and tested it I was able to figure out that the two hots and two neutrals came off a main line from the larger circuit, so disconnecting them did in fact open the circuit. It turns out that the wall switch wasn't connected to anything, so I simply had the leads from the switch up in the box as well. Not sure if this is how it's supposed to be or not, but meh, that's what I had to work with.

So essentially, all I did was reconnect the main circuit together, then wired the light in series with the switch and put them in parallel with the main line, and this seemed to make everything happy. Thanks for the advice guys, it definitely helped even though you guys weren't given much to work with, and I appreciate it.