"No discussing religion" is a rule at the college? That in and of itself is bullshit.
My art school is actually pretty liberal and has a very strict anti-intolerance policy. The purpose of the upcoming suspension hearing will be to determine whether or not my disagreeing with Lacy's spiritual convictions consitutes hate speech.
jesus fucking christ.
freedom of speech falls by the wayside.
reminds me of that idiotic law that almost got passed in britain regarding disparaging words about religion.
I'm sure she was making statements that rang to you as false and misleading, and all you wanted was clarity on the issue and try to make a point about statements like saying something is "proven", but that clearly wasn't what she was looking for and you went with it anyway.
Doesn't make it your fault, but it's something you should definitely be more aware of, and if anything can be gained from this unfortunate circumstance I would hope it would be that.
and if she had been talking about how fags and their sympathizers are going to burn in hell for all eternity?
THen she would be deep in shit.
Rule Number 1: Stupid hypotheticals are stupid hypotheticals.
it would just be an innocuous statement of her belief. it doesn't mean we all should jump on her for something like that.
No, it would be a violation of the code of conduct at most schools I know of.
Hate speech and hate crime are perfect examples of concepts designed with good intent but executed so horrifically we're probably better off without them.
No, it would be a violation of the code of conduct at most school I know of.
It's a craptacular hypothetical, Loren.
Of course, in the hypothetical "if she had been talking about how fags and their sympathizers are going to burn in hell for all eternity" case Loren Michael brings up, the girl would in fact wind up being disciplined under the same "hate speech" flavored regulations that are currently screwing over Bandetta.
No, it would be a violation of the code of conduct at most school I know of.
It's a craptacular hypothetical, Loren.
Of course, in the hypothetical "if she had been talking about how fags and their sympathizers are going to burn in hell for all eternity" case Loren Michael brings up, the girl would in fact wind up being disciplined under the same "hate speech" flavored regulations that are currently screwing over Bandetta.
people need to be told they're stupid, but we don't need to pass laws against stupid people to do it.
laws that split hairs and make some forms of stupid off limits are themselves stupid, cumbersome, and harmful.
Is this school in NC by any chance? Nevermind, don't answer that. Point is, I've been to some hardcore private art colleges, well, one anyway. In a place like that, the leprechauness is entitled to her beliefs. And even a civilized attempt (and I still seriously doubt you were as innocent as you claim to be) to force reason onto someone may very well be interpreted as a vicious assault.
Many people feel that their right to eccentric and zany spirituality is just as valid as their right to eccentric and zany clothing or hairstyle. And even a faux-polite attempt at challenging the logic of someone's choice in clothing or hair or art or whatever may very well be interpreted fearfully as an attack.
In short, the dean likely sees you as a weasel who can't control a desire to poke and tear and another's psyche.
No, it would be a violation of the code of conduct at most school I know of.
It's a craptacular hypothetical, Loren.
Of course, in the hypothetical "if she had been talking about how fags and their sympathizers are going to burn in hell for all eternity" case Loren Michael brings up, the girl would in fact wind up being disciplined under the same "hate speech" flavored regulations that are currently screwing over Bandetta.
people need to be told they're stupid, but we don't need to pass laws against stupid people to do it.
laws that split hairs and make some forms of stupid off limits are themselves stupid, cumbersome, and harmful.
Laws != Codes of Conduct for student bodies at private schools.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
No, it would be a violation of the code of conduct at most school I know of.
It's a craptacular hypothetical, Loren.
Of course, in the hypothetical "if she had been talking about how fags and their sympathizers are going to burn in hell for all eternity" case Loren Michael brings up, the girl would in fact wind up being disciplined under the same "hate speech" flavored regulations that are currently screwing over Bandetta.
people need to be told they're stupid, but we don't need to pass laws against stupid people to do it.
laws that split hairs and make some forms of stupid off limits are themselves stupid, cumbersome, and harmful.
The diffeence between a relatively benign, if ignorant, belief about 'energy levels' and leperchauns and Bigoted, violently homophobic speech is a hair, what the fuck is wrong with you?
No, it would be a violation of the code of conduct at most school I know of.
It's a craptacular hypothetical, Loren.
Of course, in the hypothetical "if she had been talking about how fags and their sympathizers are going to burn in hell for all eternity" case Loren Michael brings up, the girl would in fact wind up being disciplined under the same "hate speech" flavored regulations that are currently screwing over Bandetta.
people need to be told they're stupid, but we don't need to pass laws against stupid people to do it.
laws that split hairs and make some forms of stupid off limits are themselves stupid, cumbersome, and harmful.
The diffeence between a relatively benign, if ignorant, belief about 'energy levels' and leperchauns and Bigoted, violently homophobic speech is a hair, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Is this school in NC by any chance? Nevermind, don't answer that. Point is, I've been to some hardcore private art colleges, well, one anyway. In a place like that, the leprechauness is entitled to her beliefs. And even a civilized attempt (and I still seriously doubt you were as innocent as you claim to be) to force reason onto someone may very well be interpreted as a vicious assault.
Many people feel that their right to eccentric and zany spirituality is just as valid as their right to eccentric and zany clothing or hairstyle. And even a faux-polite attempt at challenging the logic of someone's choice in clothing or hair or art or whatever may very well be interpreted fearfully as an attack.
In short, the dean likely sees you as a weasel who can't control a desire to poke and tear and another's psyche.
I figured this was the case the whole time. It doesn't make it his fault that his school is full of a bunch of namby-pamby assholes or that the girl's spiritual beliefs, which apparently are so important to her, are so fragilly shattered by some dude poking at them. However, he should know better, if not then, then certainly now. If you're going to a school like that, either deal with that being the situation as is and avoid getting in shit, or try to fight against it and change it.
The point is, unless the case is so extreme that what is being said becomes action rather than speech (i.e. credible threats of harm, sexual harassment or other harrassment), school regulations shouldn't be distinguishing between "good" and "bad" speech. Whether it's fluffy-bunny newagery, skepticism of fluffy-bunny newagery, or blathering homophobia, we shouldn't be circumscribing people's ability to express these things in public and you can't trust a bureaucracy to decide which of these things shouldn't be publicly expressed. In any case the correct reaction to speech you don't like is to counter it with more speech.
This is not, of course, to say that Loren Michaels is anything other than a nutcase for trying to equate belief in fairies with "gays are going to hell".
BINGO!
...
Many people feel that their right to eccentric and zany spirituality is just as valid as their right to eccentric and zany clothing or hairstyle.
Whatever you do, maintain your composure during the hearing. Make yourself out to be the reasonable one who was just having a friendly discussion. If the witnesses back you up you should be fine. If not, sue the shit out of them and then find someplace better to go.
Avoid speaking in an irish lilt.
Proto on
and her knees up on the glove compartment
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
he should know better, if not then, then certainly now.
You bet your ass I do. If I can survive this without getting expelled, I am going to keep my mouth shut and lay low. It's less than a year till I graduate. I don't care if someone insists that Teen Wolf singlehandedly assembled human beings in their current form out of atoms that he willed into existence, I'm not going to stick my neck out just to argue with a retard.
.....I'll wait until we're off school property, anyways. I mean come on, leprechauns?
Whatever you do, maintain your composure during the hearing. Make yourself out to be the reasonable one who was just having a friendly discussion. If the witnesses back you up you should be fine. If not, sue the shit out of them and then find someplace better to go.
Avoid speaking in an irish lilt.
And don't make the hearing about your beliefs or hers at all. The only relevant thing you can present here is people who support your assertion that your words or actions did not go beyond the bounds laid out in your student code of behavior.
In short, don't do what you did with the title of this thread. This isn't about your faith or lack there of.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Whatever you do, maintain your composure during the hearing. Make yourself out to be the reasonable one who was just having a friendly discussion. If the witnesses back you up you should be fine. If not, sue the shit out of them and then find someplace better to go.
This is not, of course, to say that Loren Michael is anything other than a nutcase for trying to equate belief in fairies with "gays are going to hell".
beyond the fact that one is offensive to someone, they're really both just as unfounded as the other. i'm not sure how you can dispute that, or deny that they both are equally ridiculous.
it's not like people who believe ridiculous things do so with the express purpose of either being offensive or just being benignly nutty.
This is not, of course, to say that Loren Michael is anything other than a nutcase for trying to equate belief in fairies with "gays are going to hell".
beyond the fact that one is offensive to someone, they're really both just as unfounded as the other. i'm not sure how you can dispute that, or deny that they both are equally ridiculous.
it's not like people who believe ridiculous things do so with the express purpose of either being offensive or just being benignly nutty.
They may both be ridiculous, but one is fairly benign and harmless.
This is not, of course, to say that Loren Michael is anything other than a nutcase for trying to equate belief in fairies with "gays are going to hell".
beyond the fact that one is offensive to someone, they're really both just as unfounded as the other. i'm not sure how you can dispute that, or deny that they both are equally ridiculous.
it's not like people who believe ridiculous things do so with the express purpose of either being offensive or just being benignly nutty.
They may both be ridiculous, but one is fairly benign and harmless.
he should know better, if not then, then certainly now.
You bet your ass I do. If I can survive this without getting expelled, I am going to keep my mouth shut and lay low.
"Chilling effects"
Hey man, I know I seem like a coward.
The thing is, my mother and father are the kind of people who think that their quality as parents is directly related to the grades I get. If I failed out of school, it would absolutely crush them.
Well, it'd crush my mother. My father would crush me.
Whatever you do, maintain your composure during the hearing. Make yourself out to be the reasonable one who was just having a friendly discussion. If the witnesses back you up you should be fine. If not, sue the shit out of them and then find someplace better to go.
Avoid speaking in an irish lilt.
Do not say "Faith and Begorah!"
Refrain from turning the hearing into a debate about whether Lucky Charms have gone downhill since they introduced "Red Balloons".
Proto on
and her knees up on the glove compartment
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
Whatever you do, maintain your composure during the hearing. Make yourself out to be the reasonable one who was just having a friendly discussion. If the witnesses back you up you should be fine. If not, sue the shit out of them and then find someplace better to go.
Avoid speaking in an irish lilt.
Do not say "Faith and Begorah!"
Refrain from turning the hearing into a debate about whether Lucky Charms have gone downhill since they introduced "Red Balloons".
he should know better, if not then, then certainly now.
You bet your ass I do. If I can survive this without getting expelled, I am going to keep my mouth shut and lay low.
"Chilling effects"
Hey man, I know I seem like a coward.
The thing is, my mother and father are the kind of people who think that their quality as parents is directly related to the grades I get. If I failed out of school, it would absolutely crush them.
Well, it'd crush my mother. My father would crush me.
Eh, don't worry about the coward stuff. At some point in our lives, we all run into a crazy nutball who causes a lot of trouble by using the system. I half think thats why the school would come down on you with the hammer like this. They're covering their butt in case she makes a claim that her beliefs were not defended and upheld by the school.
The lesson learned is to just avoid stupidity. Ultimately, it just gets you involved in more stupidity.
In short, don't do what you did with the title of this thread. This isn't about your faith or lack there of.
Yeah, sorry, but the very manner in which the thread title was worded is pretty solid evidence that the OP is somewhat intellectually dishonest about these sorts of things. OP is a word-twister. A manipulator. Art schools do not like them one bit.
I have a coworker who berates people incessantly about politics, grilling and menacing them until they run in fear, but later he swears on his life that he never perceived anything but a friendly discussion of light-hearted topics. So, like with him, I have little faith that your conversation with her was as innocent as you or your buddies perceived it to be.
Make yourself out to be the reasonable one who was just having a friendly discussion.
No! That kind of manipulative shit is what got him in trouble. If you want to get out of this, acknowledge that you inappropriately questioned another person on a sensitive matter and apologize profusely. And sincerely - no snide remarks or cynical logic.
See, Loren, this is the largest problem I have with you.
It's your ludicrous, unfair hyperbolic comparisons.
You compare things which in no way are really alike, and refuse the notion that they are at all different, and try to use that as a foundation to make some kind of point.
And you seem to drop the "discrimination card" at every opportunity, equating things to homophobia or racism if it suits your purpose, even if they are in no way similar other than you saying "well, they're both stupid."
Nazis are stupid, Loren.
I also don't like Pecan Pie.
That doesn't mean I equate pecan pie with nazis.
Fucking shit, man.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
See, Loren, this is the largest problem I have with you.
It's your ludicrous, unfair hyperbolic comparisons.
You compare things which in no way are really alike, and refuse the notion that they are at all different, and try to use that as a foundation to make some kind of point.
And you seem to drop the "discrimination card" at every opportunity, equating things to homophobia or racism if it suits your purpose, even if they are in no way similar other than you saying "well, they're both stupid."
Nazis are stupid, Loren.
I also don't like Pecan Pie.
That doesn't mean I equate pecan pie with nazis.
Fucking shit, man.
What the fuck is young with you? Pecan Pie is awesome! Oh gods, now I won't be able to sleep until T-day. Thanks a bunch.
Make yourself out to be the reasonable one who was just having a friendly discussion.
No! That kind of manipulative shit is what got him in trouble. If you want to get out of this, acknowledge that you inappropriately questioned another person on a sensitive matter and apologize profusely. And sincerely - no snide remarks or cynical logic.
It's hardly manipulative since he assumed it was a friendly discussion. I don't think stating as much is a bad idea. But yeah, something along the lines of "I thought we were having a friendly discussion, but I apologize if I caused offence. It was unintentional." would b e a good idea.
Proto on
and her knees up on the glove compartment
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
i am really curious as to whether this school has its "hate speech" policies outlined in a guidebook or rulebook, and what exactly the rules are regarding this. something about this entire story just doesn't add up, and it's not just because we don't have an alternate or opposing viewpoint here. i'm not accusing the OP here of anything, but it just seems like, as with all things, there's "more to the story."
i'd also like to know the name of the school too, but i'm guessing this would be asking for too much.
It's hardly manipulative since he assumed it was a friendly discussion.
I didn't even have to. She didn't break down in front of me or cry or anything, which is why I was a little perturbed to hear that she had suffered a meltdown after class while talking about the incident with our teacher.
But yeah, something along the lines of "I thought we were having a friendly discussion, but I apologize if I caused offence. It was unintentional." would b e a good idea.
Maybe.
But see, he isn't drinking the Kool-aid in your scenario.
Sorry to sound like Loren, but this may be interpreted along the lines of "Sorry, I thought we were just having a friendly discussion when I called her a cunt-licking bull-dyke who was going to hell for being a homo."
It's just another way of saying "I still don't think what I did was wrong, but hey, I'm totally like sorry or whatever." They'll still see him as a hater.
That has a chance of ending poorly.
The surefire means to success is to fully acknowledge that they are right, OP was wrong, he was being insensitive and pursued the discussion in an inappropriate manner. He's not sorry "if," he's sorry "because."
But yeah, something along the lines of "I thought we were having a friendly discussion, but I apologize if I caused offence. It was unintentional." would b e a good idea.
Maybe.
But see, he isn't drinking the Kool-aid in your scenario.
Sorry to sound like Loren, but this may be interpreted along the lines of "Sorry, I thought we were just having a friendly discussion when I called her a cunt-licking bull-dyke who was going to hell for being a homo."
It's just another way of saying "I still don't think what I did was wrong, but hey, I'm totally like sorry or whatever." They'll still see him as a hater.
That has a chance of ending poorly.
The surefire means to success is to fully acknowledge that they are right, OP was wrong, he was being insensitive and pursued the discussion in an inappropriate manner. He's not sorry "if," he's sorry "because."
I agree.
"I'm sorry if" is never a real apology anyway.
It always comes across as "I'm sorry that you are wrong."
You aren't apologizing, you're showing pity and maybe contempt.
honestly, if what the OP said in the first post is completely true, i would go all out in the opposite direction and assert that i was not at fault. this really depends on what's officially written down for the school's regs of course. but accepting the judgement of the deans could let them permanently mark the incident in any transcripts or records in the OP's academic file. i would not put up with that shit if it was unwarranted.
Posts
jesus fucking christ.
freedom of speech falls by the wayside.
reminds me of that idiotic law that almost got passed in britain regarding disparaging words about religion.
fucking bullshit.
It's a craptacular hypothetical, Loren.
http://www.aclu.org/
people need to be told they're stupid, but we don't need to pass laws against stupid people to do it.
laws that split hairs and make some forms of stupid off limits are themselves stupid, cumbersome, and harmful.
I was about to call bullshit. Now it makes sense.
Is this school in NC by any chance? Nevermind, don't answer that. Point is, I've been to some hardcore private art colleges, well, one anyway. In a place like that, the leprechauness is entitled to her beliefs. And even a civilized attempt (and I still seriously doubt you were as innocent as you claim to be) to force reason onto someone may very well be interpreted as a vicious assault.
Many people feel that their right to eccentric and zany spirituality is just as valid as their right to eccentric and zany clothing or hairstyle. And even a faux-polite attempt at challenging the logic of someone's choice in clothing or hair or art or whatever may very well be interpreted fearfully as an attack.
In short, the dean likely sees you as a weasel who can't control a desire to poke and tear and another's psyche.
EDIT: And to some extent, he is right.
The diffeence between a relatively benign, if ignorant, belief about 'energy levels' and leperchauns and Bigoted, violently homophobic speech is a hair, what the fuck is wrong with you?
yes. both are equally idiotic and unfounded.
I figured this was the case the whole time. It doesn't make it his fault that his school is full of a bunch of namby-pamby assholes or that the girl's spiritual beliefs, which apparently are so important to her, are so fragilly shattered by some dude poking at them. However, he should know better, if not then, then certainly now. If you're going to a school like that, either deal with that being the situation as is and avoid getting in shit, or try to fight against it and change it.
In either case, don't act shocked, man.
This is not, of course, to say that Loren Michaels is anything other than a nutcase for trying to equate belief in fairies with "gays are going to hell".
Good God, Pavlov strikes quickly
Avoid speaking in an irish lilt.
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
You bet your ass I do. If I can survive this without getting expelled, I am going to keep my mouth shut and lay low. It's less than a year till I graduate. I don't care if someone insists that Teen Wolf singlehandedly assembled human beings in their current form out of atoms that he willed into existence, I'm not going to stick my neck out just to argue with a retard.
.....I'll wait until we're off school property, anyways. I mean come on, leprechauns?
"Chilling effects"
In short, don't do what you did with the title of this thread. This isn't about your faith or lack there of.
Do not say "Faith and Begorah!"
beyond the fact that one is offensive to someone, they're really both just as unfounded as the other. i'm not sure how you can dispute that, or deny that they both are equally ridiculous.
it's not like people who believe ridiculous things do so with the express purpose of either being offensive or just being benignly nutty.
i'd do exactly the same thing, but jesus fucking christ, that's absolute bullshit on so many levels.
They may both be ridiculous, but one is fairly benign and harmless.
and so it should be protected?
Hey man, I know I seem like a coward.
The thing is, my mother and father are the kind of people who think that their quality as parents is directly related to the grades I get. If I failed out of school, it would absolutely crush them.
Well, it'd crush my mother. My father would crush me.
Refrain from turning the hearing into a debate about whether Lucky Charms have gone downhill since they introduced "Red Balloons".
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
Eh, don't worry about the coward stuff. At some point in our lives, we all run into a crazy nutball who causes a lot of trouble by using the system. I half think thats why the school would come down on you with the hammer like this. They're covering their butt in case she makes a claim that her beliefs were not defended and upheld by the school.
The lesson learned is to just avoid stupidity. Ultimately, it just gets you involved in more stupidity.
I have a coworker who berates people incessantly about politics, grilling and menacing them until they run in fear, but later he swears on his life that he never perceived anything but a friendly discussion of light-hearted topics. So, like with him, I have little faith that your conversation with her was as innocent as you or your buddies perceived it to be.
No! That kind of manipulative shit is what got him in trouble. If you want to get out of this, acknowledge that you inappropriately questioned another person on a sensitive matter and apologize profusely. And sincerely - no snide remarks or cynical logic.
It's your ludicrous, unfair hyperbolic comparisons.
You compare things which in no way are really alike, and refuse the notion that they are at all different, and try to use that as a foundation to make some kind of point.
And you seem to drop the "discrimination card" at every opportunity, equating things to homophobia or racism if it suits your purpose, even if they are in no way similar other than you saying "well, they're both stupid."
Nazis are stupid, Loren.
I also don't like Pecan Pie.
That doesn't mean I equate pecan pie with nazis.
Fucking shit, man.
What the fuck is young with you? Pecan Pie is awesome! Oh gods, now I won't be able to sleep until T-day. Thanks a bunch.
Pretty much. This is why I would never have gone to a private art school.
It's hardly manipulative since he assumed it was a friendly discussion. I don't think stating as much is a bad idea. But yeah, something along the lines of "I thought we were having a friendly discussion, but I apologize if I caused offence. It was unintentional." would b e a good idea.
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
i'd also like to know the name of the school too, but i'm guessing this would be asking for too much.
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I didn't even have to. She didn't break down in front of me or cry or anything, which is why I was a little perturbed to hear that she had suffered a meltdown after class while talking about the incident with our teacher.
But see, he isn't drinking the Kool-aid in your scenario.
Sorry to sound like Loren, but this may be interpreted along the lines of "Sorry, I thought we were just having a friendly discussion when I called her a cunt-licking bull-dyke who was going to hell for being a homo."
It's just another way of saying "I still don't think what I did was wrong, but hey, I'm totally like sorry or whatever." They'll still see him as a hater.
That has a chance of ending poorly.
The surefire means to success is to fully acknowledge that they are right, OP was wrong, he was being insensitive and pursued the discussion in an inappropriate manner. He's not sorry "if," he's sorry "because."
I agree.
"I'm sorry if" is never a real apology anyway.
It always comes across as "I'm sorry that you are wrong."
You aren't apologizing, you're showing pity and maybe contempt.
Of course, I do that kind of thing all the time, but that's because I'm kind of a prick.
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