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Domestic+Sexual Violence and Gender

The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hopRegistered User regular
edited November 2006 in Debate and/or Discourse
Not to make a grossly broad topic or anything, but here we go. For one, I really don't want this to be a finger-pointing thread. People should not be posting for winners and losers trying to decide who really has it worse. Everybody suffers through some shit.

This thread is to talk about cultural attitudes surrounding these acts, not necessarily who gets the short straw or anything like that. I'm curious to know why we think we have different expectations for the different genders with regards to domestic and sexual violence, and what, if anything, we think can be done to maturely and rationally address the problem for all its victims.

Basically Cass (sorry [chat] posters, I'mma put you on blast here) mentioned the fact that we frequently laugh about and/or ignore male-on-male prison rape, despite it being a serious problem, when it seems reasonable that a similar suggestion, male-on-female prison rape, would receive much more attention than just giggles and jokes. I'm not saying this is a problem or something that is the feminists fault or any of the bullshit like that, I'm simply asking why that might be. Thoughts?

This came around to domestic violence then, and its frequency. Again, sorry The Cat but I typed up a big post to go in [chat] and decided it was probably thread-worthy, might as well dump it here. Here's what the Cat wrote that I will respond to below:
The Cat wrote:
The male domestic violence thing needs to be talked about, but often suffers from false equivalencies - male on female physical injury tends to be far more severe than the reverse, for instance, and the outright kill-rate is far higher in that direction. Trying to put getting screamed at on the same level as a severe beating/sexual assault doesn't help the debate at all.
Funny you say that -- here's the relevant quote I was looking for:
With support from the National Institute of Mental Health, two researchers -- Murray Straus, PhD, and Richard Gelles, PhD, from the Family Research Laboratory at the University of New Hampshire -- conducted a nationally representative survey of married and cohabiting couple regarind domestic violence. The results were first published in 1977, followed by a book, with coauthor Suzanne Stienmetz, PhD, in 1980. Straus and Gelles followed up the initial survey of more than 2,000 couples with a larger 6,000 couple group in 1985.

By 1985, the incident rates for minor violence (slap, spank, throw something, push, grab, or shove) were equal for men and women. In sever violence (kick, bite, hit with a fist, hit or try to hit with an object, beat up the other, threaten with a knife or gun, use a knife or gun), more men were victimized than women. The first survey had shown an equal amount of domestic violence for each gender, but the 1985 results showed a decrease of female victims, while the number of male victimes remained the same. Projecting the 1985 study onto the national population of married couples, the results showed more than eight million couples a year engaging in some form of domestic violence, with 1.8 million female victims of severe violence and 2 million male victims of severe violence. To put this another way: A woman is assaulted by a domestic partner every eighteen seconds, a man every fifteen seconds.

If couple not currently living together were included, the figure would likely be higher. These totals come with a qualification that is rarely mentioned, however; the surveys asked only if a particular type of violence occurred at least once in the past year. Other studies indicate severe repated battering attacks to be much less common.

These figures for abused women -- especially the "one woman every eighteen seconds" statistic -- are the most often quoted numbers regarding domestic violence in support of funding and attention for the problem. Almost always, the equal or greater number of male victims, which were found in the same surveys, is simply ignored. But accepting the Family Research Laboratory results for women should mean having to accept the same source for male victimization.

So again, I'm not trying to point fingers, I'm just wondering why one group receives attention while the other doesn't, the extent to which we think this is a problem, and possibilities for addressing this problem if you really feel it as such.

Hopefully this isn't too big of a mess. I tried to think of a title with less seriousness, but I couldn't think of one. If you can think of something a little less vague and a little less drastic sounding, I'd love to edit that out.

edit: here's the full text of the article linked twice cuz they're both shitty webpages, so you can pick which one to suffer through should you want to read more.

The Green Eyed Monster on
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    mccmcc glitch Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    celery77 did it!

    111260155_96b53093db_m.jpg

    mcc on
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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited November 2006
    celery77 wrote:
    Basically Cass (sorry [chat] posters, I'mma put you on blast here) mentioned the fact that we frequently laugh about and/or ignore male-on-male prison rape, despite it being a serious problem, when it seems reasonable that a similar suggestion, male-on-female prison rape, would receive much more attention than just giggles and jokes. I'm not saying this is a problem or something that is the feminists fault or any of the bullshit like that, I'm simply asking why that might be. Thoughts?
    Because it fits some people's notions of "karmic justice." Also, I've seen some people in this forum and outside it voice similar opinions of male-on-female rape (not necessarily in prison) if the girl "deserved it."

    Elki on
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    The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    mcc wrote:
    celery77 did it!

    me??!??!
    Should have known that was coming. Honestly it's a mess of a post, but if I didn't type it write then my will to make it would be lost. We'll have to make do with what we got.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
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    Dread Pirate ArbuthnotDread Pirate Arbuthnot OMG WRIGGLY T O X O P L A S M O S I SRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I think a problem is in various forms of media, it's considered 'cute' and amusing if a woman beans a man. Ha, ha, Random Guy is staring at Cute But Feisty Girl's breasts, so it's totally justifable for her to bash his brains in. There seems to be an idea in these jokes that it's not like women have the muscle to hurt men anyways, so what's the harm in it? It's just them being their adorable, irrational selves - har har.

    Dread Pirate Arbuthnot on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    answer: historical inequities.

    The problem, as I see it, with making discussion of domestic violence more gender-equitable is that a lot of 'men's rights activists' go way overboard and start making out that women are never really victimised and that its all a beatup (lolz) and then advocate for removal of services that aid women, rather than establishment of services that aid men. Hello, defensive reaction, and then it all goes south.

    I must also say that every other survey on domestic violence I've ever read indicates the opposite pattern you quote. Its very important to be careful with sources in debates like these, because survey methodology has such a huge influence on results. Socioeconomic status in particular influences rates of abuse in relationships, because poverty is such a huge stressor.

    The Cat on
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    HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Also, there definitely needs to be a change in public attitude regarding male prison rape. The rationale that "oh they're criminals, so they deserve it" is basically the same as saying "oh she was a slut, so she was asking for it."

    Hacksaw on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Cass wrote:
    I think a problem is in various forms of media, it's considered 'cute' and amusing if a woman beans a man. Ha, ha, Random Guy is staring at Cute But Feisty Girl's breasts, so it's totally justifable for her to bash his brains in. There seems to be an idea in these jokes that it's not like women have the muscle to hurt men anyways, so what's the harm in it? It's just them being their adorable, irrational selves - har har.

    I think Cass is hysterical again

    Violent men are looked at as dangerous while violent women are seen as "spunky". Like Cass said our society doesn't think women are capable of being dangerous so it's considered a joke when they're violent

    nexuscrawler on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    God45 wrote:
    Also, there definitely needs to be a change in public attitude regarding male prison rape. The rationale that "oh they're criminals, so they deserve it" is basically the same as saying "oh she was a slut, so she was asking for it."
    yeah, that always disgusts me. There's a good report on the prevalence somewhere called "Not in My Sentence" that's worth a read. Should be easy to google.

    Worth mentioning that female prisoners get raped too, of course. Treatment of pregnant female prisoners is also fairly vile, and often overlooked.

    The Cat on
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    Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited November 2006
    God45 wrote:
    Also, there definitely needs to be a change in public attitude regarding male prison rape. The rationale that "oh they're criminals, so they deserve it" is basically the same as saying "oh she was a slut, so she was asking for it."

    I hope this is still topical, but the winking at prison rape is just fucking barbaric. We nationally blanched at the Saddam "rape rooms," but snigger at comedies centering on male rape in prison. It's deeply fucked up.

    Irond Will on
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    The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The Cat wrote:
    The problem, as I see it, with making discussion of domestic violence more gender-equitable is that a lot of 'men's rights activists' go way overboard and start making out that women are never really victimised and that its all a beatup (lolz) and then advocate for removal of services that aid women, rather than establishment of services that aid men. Hello, defensive reaction, and then it all goes south.
    Right, I totally agree with that. That would be the point of my bolded qualifiers about not trying to win or whatever. The "who has it worse" dialogue is generally a negative way to take the discussion, and like my attempts to nip it out, I completely agree -- there's a problem with people overreacting in either direction.

    That said, among ostensibly reasonable and level-headed people, do we still hold such attitudes? Are they a problem? Do we mainly choose to ignore the victims of male domestic violence, because, like we agree, to bring them into the discussion invites a lot of yahoo-ism and misguided commentators? Is there any way to discuss them without fucking up the whole discussion?
    I must also say that every other survey on domestic violence I've ever read indicates the opposite pattern you quote. Its very important to be careful with sources in debates like these, because survey methodology has such a huge influence on results. Socioeconomic status in particular influences rates of abuse in relationships, because poverty is such a huge stressor.
    Right, I'm just pointing it out. I realize that it's as potentially flawed as any other statistic, but you can't deny it's interesting. I think if anything is interesting about it is the extent to which the men in the survey are simply ignored. Even if we admit they over-estimated the 2M men who are annually victims of serious violence by 25%, that still leaves 1.5M men a year, which is hardly a negligible figure. Why do we seem to pay no attention whatsoever to the men in these studies which are otherwise receiving very deserved attention?

    The Green Eyed Monster on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Are there more recent studies that show the relevant rates of domestic violence against male/female partners? I've not really looked into the issue a hell of a lot, but I do know that if you're a man in an abusive relationship there are only two things people think:

    A) You're not much of a man to be beaten on by a woman

    B) You really don't have anywhere to go or turn to so you might as well suck it up.

    Edit:
    Right, I'm just pointing it out. I realize that it's as potentially flawed as any other statistic, but you can't deny it's interesting. I think if anything is interesting about it is the extent to which the men in the survey are simply ignored. Even if we admit they over-estimated the 2M men who are annually victims of serious violence by 25%, that still leaves 1.5M men a year, which is hardly a negligible figure. Why do we seem to pay no attention whatsoever to the men in these studies which are otherwise receiving very deserved attention?

    More importantly, why do people immediately dispute one figure generated by the same study and not the other using the exact same methodology.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Elkamil wrote:
    celery77 wrote:
    Basically Cass (sorry [chat] posters, I'mma put you on blast here) mentioned the fact that we frequently laugh about and/or ignore male-on-male prison rape, despite it being a serious problem, when it seems reasonable that a similar suggestion, male-on-female prison rape, would receive much more attention than just giggles and jokes. I'm not saying this is a problem or something that is the feminists fault or any of the bullshit like that, I'm simply asking why that might be. Thoughts?
    Because it fits some people's notions of "karmic justice." Also, I've seen some people in this forum and outside it voice similar opinions of male-on-female rape (not necessarily in prison) if the girl "deserved it."
    Yeah, I sometimes think it really might be just that simple, too. It sort of reminds me of that weird revenge thread that Ketherial was pushing on here a while ago, about special torture for child molesters or whatever. It's a weird, rarely spoken about phenomenon in our culture, I think, the whole karmic-justice thing.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
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    HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The Cat wrote:
    God45 wrote:
    Also, there definitely needs to be a change in public attitude regarding male prison rape. The rationale that "oh they're criminals, so they deserve it" is basically the same as saying "oh she was a slut, so she was asking for it."
    yeah, that always disgusts me. There's a good report on the prevalence somewhere called "Not in My Sentence" that's worth a read. Should be easy to google.

    Worth mentioning that female prisoners get raped too, of course. Treatment of pregnant female prisoners is also fairly vile, and often overlooked.
    I'm trying to find the study about female prisoners raped by male guards. The findings were horrific, and was the final straw that broke my faith in our penal system.

    And don't even get me started about that case with the male prison guard in an all-women's prison soliciting some prisoners to murder a woman he got pregnant after raping. The fact that it turned out to be far from a unique case is absolutely disgusting.

    Hacksaw on
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    Torso BoyTorso Boy Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Semi-relevant: I know a female who was fired from Tim Horton's (huge Canadian coffee shop chain) for sexual assault on a male employee while under the influence of alcohol...my friend was a witness and he says it was quite frightening; myself and some friends have experienced mild versions of it from her, and can attest to the sense of power she exerted.

    Bringing it up just to show how gender roles can go out the window.

    Torso Boy on
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    urbmanurbman Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I think it goes along the lines of "I am a Man I can take anything she can do"

    its about how a culture looks at men and their relationship with women.

    urbman on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    mccmcc glitch Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    The worst part about the whole prison rape issue is that the public attitude isn't even "well, they deserve it". The worst part is that the public attitude is that prison rape is a joke.

    mcc on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    mcc wrote:
    The worst part about the whole prison rape issue is that the public attitude isn't even "well, they deserve it". The worst part is that the public attitude is that prison rape is a joke.

    Big bad bubba has certainly got around hasn't he?

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    mcc wrote:
    The worst part about the whole prison rape issue is that the public attitude isn't even "well, they deserve it". The worst part is that the public attitude is that prison rape is a joke.

    I think that's a large part of the problem.

    I recall quite a few times during Kenneth Lay's trial that people, including David Letterman, making jokes about Ken "getting his in prison".

    Now, does that mean it should be verboten to make a joke about rape? I don't think so. I'm more of the George Carlin school of comedy, where context, audience, and intent is part of the joke and in some situations nearly anything, no matter how profane or terrible, can be made light of. That said, the problem I see is why it is considered acceptable to joke about men being raped, but totally unacceptable in nearly all situations to joke about a woman being raped.
    Those reasons are complex and don't boil down to any one single thing, but there are definitely clear factors which can be analysed.

    Pony on
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    The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Oh, I'll edit it into the top post, too, but it should be noted that the article I quoted from is much much longer and offers much more discussion that that simple study I linked. Here is one link to it and here's another. I find both pages to be rather poorly laid out, so pick your poison.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
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    HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    mcc wrote:
    The worst part about the whole prison rape issue is that the public attitude isn't even "well, they deserve it". The worst part is that the public attitude is that prison rape is a joke.
    Everyone who thinks that should be required to read the survivor testimonials on Stop Prisoner Rape's website.

    And the worst part is that the people who most people think "deserve" prison rape the most are not, in fact, the ones most often raped. The guys who get it the most tend to be the most easily victimized. The 6'4", 230 lbs. double-lifer in for murder probably doesn't have much to worry about, but the 5'7" 140 lbs. 3-6er in for larceny is probably gonna get turned over and raped 8 ways from Ash Wednesday. It's really fucked up, and anyone who thinks it isn't is either severely misinformed, or completely delusional.

    Hacksaw on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    celery77 wrote:
    That said, among ostensibly reasonable and level-headed people, do we still hold such attitudes? Are they a problem? Do we mainly choose to ignore the victims of male domestic violence, because, like we agree, to bring them into the discussion invites a lot of yahoo-ism and misguided commentators? Is there any way to discuss them without fucking up the whole discussion?
    The problem is that we still rely on outdated definitions of masculinity that have, as a large component, the notion that masculinity means being superior to women, in control of them, and most importantly not them, because femininity is regarded as inferiority. So, not being in control means, by those definitions, that you're not a man.

    I think anyone here who's tried to confront old-fashioned assumptions about gender and had their identity attacked as a result know how hurtful it is. It cuts right to core of who you are as a person. So yeah, male victims aren't going to feel comfortable saying they've been abused, and more so the more tightly they hold to those definitions of masculinity. This old conception of gender identity is part of what feminism is trying to confront, but that's only starting to happen now that the nuts-and-bolts stuff about equal access to the social and economic spheres of life is pretty much established in some places.

    The Cat on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    Pony wrote:
    mcc wrote:
    The worst part about the whole prison rape issue is that the public attitude isn't even "well, they deserve it". The worst part is that the public attitude is that prison rape is a joke.

    I think that's a large part of the problem.

    I recall quite a few times during Kenneth Lay's trial that people, including David Letterman, making jokes about Ken "getting his in prison".

    Now, does that mean it should be verboten to make a joke about rape? I don't think so. I'm more of the George Carlin school of comedy, where context, audience, and intent is part of the joke and in some situations nearly anything, no matter how profane or terrible, can be made light of. That said, the problem I see is why it is considered acceptable to joke about men being raped, but totally unacceptable in nearly all situations to joke about a woman being raped.
    Those reasons are complex and don't boil down to any one single thing, but there are definitely clear factors which can be analysed.

    I think there's a certain unconscious knowledge that there's a really good chance that one of the women in earshot might have been raped, and that puts the kibosh on it for people. Unless you're in a room full of ex-cons, that's not really an assumptions that can be made as easily about a room full of guys. The average male who hasn't been a prisoner is far less likely to be raped, especally as an adult, in the end.

    The Cat on
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    The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The Cat wrote:
    celery77 wrote:
    That said, among ostensibly reasonable and level-headed people, do we still hold such attitudes? Are they a problem? Do we mainly choose to ignore the victims of male domestic violence, because, like we agree, to bring them into the discussion invites a lot of yahoo-ism and misguided commentators? Is there any way to discuss them without fucking up the whole discussion?
    The problem is that we still rely on outdated definitions of masculinity that have, as a large component, the notion that masculinity means being superior to women, in control of them, and most importantly not them, because femininity is regarded as inferiority. So, not being in control means, by those definitions, that you're not a man.

    I think anyone here who's tried to confront old-fashioned assumptions about gender and had their identity attacked as a result know how hurtful it is. It cuts right to core of who you are as a person. So yeah, male victims aren't going to feel comfortable saying they've been abused, and more so the more tightly they hold to those definitions of masculinity. This old conception of gender identity is part of what feminism is trying to confront, but that's only starting to happen now that the nuts-and-bolts stuff about equal access to the social and economic spheres of life is pretty much established in some places.
    Good answer. You're thinking much more clearly than I am right now. I'm going to have a drink and assert my dominance over something, because this thread is making me uneasy.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    God45 wrote:
    mcc wrote:
    The worst part about the whole prison rape issue is that the public attitude isn't even "well, they deserve it". The worst part is that the public attitude is that prison rape is a joke.
    Everyone who thinks that should be required to read the survivor testimonials on Stop Prisoner Rape's website.

    And the worst part is that the people who most people think "deserve" prison rape the most are not, in fact, the ones most often raped. The guys who get it the most tend to be the most easily victimized. The 6'4", 230 lbs. double-lifer in for murder probably doesn't have much to worry about, but the 5'7" 140 lbs. 3-6er in for larceny is probably gonna get turned over and raped 8 ways from Ash Wednesday. It's really fucked up, and anyone who thinks it isn't is either severely misinformed, or completely delusional.

    I was going to make this very point, and you did so. Good thing I has me a preview button.

    The footnote to add to that is to also point out that your example is also adequate by pointing out that it's usually not the "hard" criminals, your murderers and rapists and drug enforcers, who are the victims. It's usually the dude who is doing federal time for grand theft. That's not just a size issue, that's an issue of attitude and who the person is.

    Pony on
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    HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    One of my problems with the machismo popularized by the mainstream media is the bullshit messages it promoted that can be emotionally damaging to men. "What's wrong, Timmy? Your puppy was sucked into a lawnmower, chopped into pieces, and sprayed along the side of the house? That's too bad. Oh what, you're going to cry about it now? Real men don't cry, Timmy; that shit's for girls, and sissies. You're not a sissy, are you Tommy? Real men supress their feelings and instead channel them into other outlets, like anger, and competitive sports. So remember, Timmy, the next time you want to cry, punch your sister in the mouth instead! :wink:"

    :x

    Hacksaw on
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    mccmcc glitch Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    God45 wrote:
    One of my problems with the machismo popularized by the mainstream media is the bullshit messages it promoted that can be emotionally damaging to men. "What's wrong, Timmy? Your puppy was sucked into a lawnmower, chopped into pieces, and sprayed along the side of the house? That's too bad. Wait, Timmy, why are you laughing? Timmy, stop it, that's not funny!

    mcc on
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    urbmanurbman Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The Cat wrote:
    celery77 wrote:
    That said, among ostensibly reasonable and level-headed people, do we still hold such attitudes? Are they a problem? Do we mainly choose to ignore the victims of male domestic violence, because, like we agree, to bring them into the discussion invites a lot of yahoo-ism and misguided commentators? Is there any way to discuss them without fucking up the whole discussion?
    The problem is that we still rely on outdated definitions of masculinity that have, as a large component, the notion that masculinity means being superior to women, in control of them, and most importantly not them, because femininity is regarded as inferiority. So, not being in control means, by those definitions, that you're not a man.

    I think anyone here who's tried to confront old-fashioned assumptions about gender and had their identity attacked as a result know how hurtful it is. It cuts right to core of who you are as a person. So yeah, male victims aren't going to feel comfortable saying they've been abused, and more so the more tightly they hold to those definitions of masculinity. This old conception of gender identity is part of what feminism is trying to confront, but that's only starting to happen now that the nuts-and-bolts stuff about equal access to the social and economic spheres of life is pretty much established in some places.

    Masculinity is easily the weaker of the two gender attitudes. Masculinity always needs to prove its self and is easily and usually always manipulated by femininity.

    urbman on
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    The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    urbman wrote:
    Masculinity is easily the weaker of the two gender attitudes. Masculinity always needs to prove its self and is easily and usually always manipulated by femininity.
    Please note, this is exactly the "winner-loser" type of posting that I specifically would like to avoid in this thread. There is no "weaker" or "stronger" gender. There is not always one dominant and one recessive. There does not have to be one winner and one loser. It's a complex, nuanced problem which requires more critical thinking than "who's winning?"

    The Green Eyed Monster on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    celery77 wrote:
    The Cat wrote:
    celery77 wrote:
    That said, among ostensibly reasonable and level-headed people, do we still hold such attitudes? Are they a problem? Do we mainly choose to ignore the victims of male domestic violence, because, like we agree, to bring them into the discussion invites a lot of yahoo-ism and misguided commentators? Is there any way to discuss them without fucking up the whole discussion?
    The problem is that we still rely on outdated definitions of masculinity that have, as a large component, the notion that masculinity means being superior to women, in control of them, and most importantly not them, because femininity is regarded as inferiority. So, not being in control means, by those definitions, that you're not a man.

    I think anyone here who's tried to confront old-fashioned assumptions about gender and had their identity attacked as a result know how hurtful it is. It cuts right to core of who you are as a person. So yeah, male victims aren't going to feel comfortable saying they've been abused, and more so the more tightly they hold to those definitions of masculinity. This old conception of gender identity is part of what feminism is trying to confront, but that's only starting to happen now that the nuts-and-bolts stuff about equal access to the social and economic spheres of life is pretty much established in some places.
    Good answer. You're thinking much more clearly than I am right now. I'm going to have a drink and assert my dominance over something, because this thread is making me uneasy.
    Rad. I think I'm going to explore my masculine side by dominating a sammich.

    This thread is giving me such deja vu, too...

    The Cat on
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    urbmanurbman Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    celery77 wrote:
    urbman wrote:
    Masculinity is easily the weaker of the two gender attitudes. Masculinity always needs to prove its self and is easily and usually always manipulated by femininity.
    Please note, this is exactly the "winner-loser" type of posting that I specifically would like to avoid in this thread. There is no "weaker" or "stronger" gender. There is not always one dominant and one recessive. There does not have to be one winner and one loser. It's a complex, nuanced problem which requires more critical thinking than "who's winning?"

    thats not what I wanted my post to come across as. What I wanted to say is that masculinity is just easily and simply manipulated by how we as a culture think men should act.

    urbman on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The Cat wrote:
    celery77 wrote:
    The Cat wrote:
    celery77 wrote:
    That said, among ostensibly reasonable and level-headed people, do we still hold such attitudes? Are they a problem? Do we mainly choose to ignore the victims of male domestic violence, because, like we agree, to bring them into the discussion invites a lot of yahoo-ism and misguided commentators? Is there any way to discuss them without fucking up the whole discussion?
    The problem is that we still rely on outdated definitions of masculinity that have, as a large component, the notion that masculinity means being superior to women, in control of them, and most importantly not them, because femininity is regarded as inferiority. So, not being in control means, by those definitions, that you're not a man.

    I think anyone here who's tried to confront old-fashioned assumptions about gender and had their identity attacked as a result know how hurtful it is. It cuts right to core of who you are as a person. So yeah, male victims aren't going to feel comfortable saying they've been abused, and more so the more tightly they hold to those definitions of masculinity. This old conception of gender identity is part of what feminism is trying to confront, but that's only starting to happen now that the nuts-and-bolts stuff about equal access to the social and economic spheres of life is pretty much established in some places.
    Good answer. You're thinking much more clearly than I am right now. I'm going to have a drink and assert my dominance over something, because this thread is making me uneasy.
    Rad. I think I'm going to explore my masculine side by dominating a sammich.

    This thread is giving me such deja vu, too...
    I'll explore my feminine side by unloading a dishwasher.

    ...

    That really doesn't sound right anyway.

    electricitylikesme on
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    Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited November 2006
    urbman wrote:
    thats not what I wanted my post to come across as. What I wanted to say is that masculinity is just easily and simply manipulated by how we as a culture think men should act.

    Femininity is as well. Daytime TV commercials are pretty much a testament to this fact.

    Irond Will on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Irond Will wrote:
    urbman wrote:
    thats not what I wanted my post to come across as. What I wanted to say is that masculinity is just easily and simply manipulated by how we as a culture think men should act.

    Femininity is as well. Daytime TV commercials are pretty much a testament to this fact.

    Where exactly do those Brawny commercials fit?

    Fencingsax on
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    Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited November 2006
    Fencingsax wrote:
    Irond Will wrote:
    urbman wrote:
    thats not what I wanted my post to come across as. What I wanted to say is that masculinity is just easily and simply manipulated by how we as a culture think men should act.

    Femininity is as well. Daytime TV commercials are pretty much a testament to this fact.

    Where exactly do those Brawny commercials fit?

    I guess if pressed, I'd go with the big strong man who can jump in to help with those messes too big to handle all by one's little self. Mr. Clean as well.

    Irond Will on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Irond Will wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    Irond Will wrote:
    urbman wrote:
    thats not what I wanted my post to come across as. What I wanted to say is that masculinity is just easily and simply manipulated by how we as a culture think men should act.

    Femininity is as well. Daytime TV commercials are pretty much a testament to this fact.

    Where exactly do those Brawny commercials fit?

    I guess if pressed, I'd go with the big strong man who can jump in to help with those messes too big to handle all by one's little self. Mr. Clean as well.
    I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually "hey, look at Mr. Clean's big muscles", sort of the St. Pauli Girl for the wives.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    You know what is additionally bothersome? The cultural attitude that certain machismo or masculine attitudes are intrinsically linked to certain activites and are inseperable from them.

    For example: I played football and hockey in high school. This, one would think, would classify me as a "jock". I would be expected to be crude but fun-loving, strong but emotionally repressive, and all that other bullshit masculine crap.

    And yet, that's not the case. I enjoy art and good wine and I used to do ballet. I listen to classical music and I love the opportunity to see some musical theatre.

    This doesn't make me some kind of freak oddity. It means my hobbies are diverse and are not necessarily indicative of some cultural attitude I don't even have.

    I think it's an important distinction to make, since in many cases it's not the activities themselves which are masculine or feminine or reinforce any kind of attitude, but rather, the cultures that have grown around them. Cultures which can, and in some cases would stand to benefit if they were, removed from the base activity.

    Pony on
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Pony wrote:
    You know what is additionally bothersome? The cultural attitude that certain machismo or masculine attitudes are intrinsically linked to certain activites and are inseperable from them.

    For example: I played football and hockey in high school. This, one would think, would classify me as a "jock". I would be expected to be crude but fun-loving, strong but emotionally repressive, and all that other bullshit masculine crap.

    And yet, that's not the case. I enjoy art and good wine and I used to do ballet. I listen to classical music and I love the opportunity to see some musical theatre.

    This doesn't make me some kind of freak oddity. It means my hobbies are diverse and are not necessarily indicative of some cultural attitude I don't even have.

    I think it's an important distinction to make, since in many cases it's not the activities themselves which are masculine or feminine or reinforce any kind of attitude, but rather, the cultures that have grown around them. Cultures which can, and in some cases would stand to benefit if they were, removed from the base activity.
    The stereotype has been pretty wrong for a stupidly long time though, what perplexes me is why the hell it's sticking around so vehemently.

    electricitylikesme on
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    LessLess Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The farther back in history (or the third world) you go, the more consistently sex crimes involving women are viewed as property violations against the male she belongs to, generally her daddy or her husband. Raping a young woman used to be a crime you paid her dad for because you had devalued his property. To seduce a married woman was as much or more of a humiliation to the man you were "stealing" her from as the actual woman who did the shameful act.

    Women are still sort of though of as belonging to the males they relate to, even if only in a subconscious way, and I think that's why the raping of a woman its made a bigger deal of than the raping of a man. Along similar lines, how many people care if they see a guy of their race with a woman of another, versus a woman of their race with a man of another? Eventually the protective/possessive/macho attitude will probably fade and we'll all be able to enjoy a good laugh over women getting raped too.

    Less on
    i've got so many things you haven't got
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Less wrote:
    The farther back in history (or the third world) you go, the more consistently sex crimes involving women are viewed as property violations against the male she belongs to, generally her daddy or her husband. Raping a young woman used to be a crime you paid her dad for because you had devalued his property. To seduce a married woman was as much or more of a humiliation to the man you were "stealing" her from as the actual woman who did the shameful act.

    Women are still sort of though of as belonging to the males they relate to, even if only in a subconscious way, and I think that's why the raping of a woman its made a bigger deal of than the raping of a man. Along similar lines, how many people care if they see a guy of their race with a woman of another, versus a woman of their race with a man of another? Eventually the protective/possessive/macho attitude will probably fade and we'll all be able to enjoy a good laugh over women getting raped too.
    How many people do we need to kill right now to get this problem solved?

    electricitylikesme on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Less wrote:
    The farther back in history (or the third world) you go, the more consistently sex crimes involving women are viewed as property violations against the male she belongs to, generally her daddy or her husband. Raping a young woman used to be a crime you paid her dad for because you had devalued his property. To seduce a married woman was as much or more of a humiliation to the man you were "stealing" her from as the actual woman who did the shameful act.

    Women are still sort of though of as belonging to the males they relate to, even if only in a subconscious way, and I think that's why the raping of a woman its made a bigger deal of than the raping of a man. Along similar lines, how many people care if they see a guy of their race with a woman of another, versus a woman of their race with a man of another? Eventually the protective/possessive/macho attitude will probably fade and we'll all be able to enjoy a good laugh over women getting raped too.
    How many people do we need to kill right now to get this problem solved?

    The short answer is a lot. Seriously.

    Pony on
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