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Domestic+Sexual Violence and Gender
The Green Eyed Monster
i blame hip hopRegistered User regular
i blame hip hopRegistered User regular
Not to make a grossly broad topic or anything, but here we go. For one, I really don't want this to be a finger-pointing thread. People should not be posting for winners and losers trying to decide who really has it worse. Everybody suffers through some shit.
This thread is to talk about cultural attitudes surrounding these acts, not necessarily who gets the short straw or anything like that. I'm curious to know why we think we have different expectations for the different genders with regards to domestic and sexual violence, and what, if anything, we think can be done to maturely and rationally address the problem for all its victims.
Basically Cass (sorry [chat] posters, I'mma put you on blast here) mentioned the fact that we frequently laugh about and/or ignore male-on-male prison rape, despite it being a serious problem, when it seems reasonable that a similar suggestion, male-on-female prison rape, would receive much more attention than just giggles and jokes. I'm not saying this is a problem or something that is the feminists fault or any of the bullshit like that, I'm simply asking why that might be. Thoughts?
This came around to domestic violence then, and its frequency. Again, sorry The Cat but I typed up a big post to go in [chat] and decided it was probably thread-worthy, might as well dump it here. Here's what the Cat wrote that I will respond to below:
So again, I'm not trying to point fingers, I'm just wondering why one group receives attention while the other doesn't, the extent to which we think this is a problem, and possibilities for addressing this problem if you really feel it as such.
Hopefully this isn't too big of a mess. I tried to think of a title with less seriousness, but I couldn't think of one. If you can think of something a little less vague and a little less drastic sounding, I'd love to edit that out.
edit: here's the full text of the article linked twice cuz they're both shitty webpages, so you can pick which one to suffer through should you want to read more.
This thread is to talk about cultural attitudes surrounding these acts, not necessarily who gets the short straw or anything like that. I'm curious to know why we think we have different expectations for the different genders with regards to domestic and sexual violence, and what, if anything, we think can be done to maturely and rationally address the problem for all its victims.
Basically Cass (sorry [chat] posters, I'mma put you on blast here) mentioned the fact that we frequently laugh about and/or ignore male-on-male prison rape, despite it being a serious problem, when it seems reasonable that a similar suggestion, male-on-female prison rape, would receive much more attention than just giggles and jokes. I'm not saying this is a problem or something that is the feminists fault or any of the bullshit like that, I'm simply asking why that might be. Thoughts?
This came around to domestic violence then, and its frequency. Again, sorry The Cat but I typed up a big post to go in [chat] and decided it was probably thread-worthy, might as well dump it here. Here's what the Cat wrote that I will respond to below:
Funny you say that -- here's the relevant quote I was looking for:The Cat wrote:The male domestic violence thing needs to be talked about, but often suffers from false equivalencies - male on female physical injury tends to be far more severe than the reverse, for instance, and the outright kill-rate is far higher in that direction. Trying to put getting screamed at on the same level as a severe beating/sexual assault doesn't help the debate at all.
Philip W. Cook wrote:With support from the National Institute of Mental Health, two researchers -- Murray Straus, PhD, and Richard Gelles, PhD, from the Family Research Laboratory at the University of New Hampshire -- conducted a nationally representative survey of married and cohabiting couple regarind domestic violence. The results were first published in 1977, followed by a book, with coauthor Suzanne Stienmetz, PhD, in 1980. Straus and Gelles followed up the initial survey of more than 2,000 couples with a larger 6,000 couple group in 1985.
By 1985, the incident rates for minor violence (slap, spank, throw something, push, grab, or shove) were equal for men and women. In sever violence (kick, bite, hit with a fist, hit or try to hit with an object, beat up the other, threaten with a knife or gun, use a knife or gun), more men were victimized than women. The first survey had shown an equal amount of domestic violence for each gender, but the 1985 results showed a decrease of female victims, while the number of male victimes remained the same. Projecting the 1985 study onto the national population of married couples, the results showed more than eight million couples a year engaging in some form of domestic violence, with 1.8 million female victims of severe violence and 2 million male victims of severe violence. To put this another way: A woman is assaulted by a domestic partner every eighteen seconds, a man every fifteen seconds.
If couple not currently living together were included, the figure would likely be higher. These totals come with a qualification that is rarely mentioned, however; the surveys asked only if a particular type of violence occurred at least once in the past year. Other studies indicate severe repated battering attacks to be much less common.
These figures for abused women -- especially the "one woman every eighteen seconds" statistic -- are the most often quoted numbers regarding domestic violence in support of funding and attention for the problem. Almost always, the equal or greater number of male victims, which were found in the same surveys, is simply ignored. But accepting the Family Research Laboratory results for women should mean having to accept the same source for male victimization.
So again, I'm not trying to point fingers, I'm just wondering why one group receives attention while the other doesn't, the extent to which we think this is a problem, and possibilities for addressing this problem if you really feel it as such.
Hopefully this isn't too big of a mess. I tried to think of a title with less seriousness, but I couldn't think of one. If you can think of something a little less vague and a little less drastic sounding, I'd love to edit that out.
edit: here's the full text of the article linked twice cuz they're both shitty webpages, so you can pick which one to suffer through should you want to read more.
The Green Eyed Monster on
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The problem, as I see it, with making discussion of domestic violence more gender-equitable is that a lot of 'men's rights activists' go way overboard and start making out that women are never really victimised and that its all a beatup (lolz) and then advocate for removal of services that aid women, rather than establishment of services that aid men. Hello, defensive reaction, and then it all goes south.
I must also say that every other survey on domestic violence I've ever read indicates the opposite pattern you quote. Its very important to be careful with sources in debates like these, because survey methodology has such a huge influence on results. Socioeconomic status in particular influences rates of abuse in relationships, because poverty is such a huge stressor.
I think Cass is hysterical again
Violent men are looked at as dangerous while violent women are seen as "spunky". Like Cass said our society doesn't think women are capable of being dangerous so it's considered a joke when they're violent
Worth mentioning that female prisoners get raped too, of course. Treatment of pregnant female prisoners is also fairly vile, and often overlooked.
I hope this is still topical, but the winking at prison rape is just fucking barbaric. We nationally blanched at the Saddam "rape rooms," but snigger at comedies centering on male rape in prison. It's deeply fucked up.
That said, among ostensibly reasonable and level-headed people, do we still hold such attitudes? Are they a problem? Do we mainly choose to ignore the victims of male domestic violence, because, like we agree, to bring them into the discussion invites a lot of yahoo-ism and misguided commentators? Is there any way to discuss them without fucking up the whole discussion?
Right, I'm just pointing it out. I realize that it's as potentially flawed as any other statistic, but you can't deny it's interesting. I think if anything is interesting about it is the extent to which the men in the survey are simply ignored. Even if we admit they over-estimated the 2M men who are annually victims of serious violence by 25%, that still leaves 1.5M men a year, which is hardly a negligible figure. Why do we seem to pay no attention whatsoever to the men in these studies which are otherwise receiving very deserved attention?
And don't even get me started about that case with the male prison guard in an all-women's prison soliciting some prisoners to murder a woman he got pregnant after raping. The fact that it turned out to be far from a unique case is absolutely disgusting.
Bringing it up just to show how gender roles can go out the window.
its about how a culture looks at men and their relationship with women.
I think that's a large part of the problem.
I recall quite a few times during Kenneth Lay's trial that people, including David Letterman, making jokes about Ken "getting his in prison".
Now, does that mean it should be verboten to make a joke about rape? I don't think so. I'm more of the George Carlin school of comedy, where context, audience, and intent is part of the joke and in some situations nearly anything, no matter how profane or terrible, can be made light of. That said, the problem I see is why it is considered acceptable to joke about men being raped, but totally unacceptable in nearly all situations to joke about a woman being raped.
Those reasons are complex and don't boil down to any one single thing, but there are definitely clear factors which can be analysed.
And the worst part is that the people who most people think "deserve" prison rape the most are not, in fact, the ones most often raped. The guys who get it the most tend to be the most easily victimized. The 6'4", 230 lbs. double-lifer in for murder probably doesn't have much to worry about, but the 5'7" 140 lbs. 3-6er in for larceny is probably gonna get turned over and raped 8 ways from Ash Wednesday. It's really fucked up, and anyone who thinks it isn't is either severely misinformed, or completely delusional.
I think anyone here who's tried to confront old-fashioned assumptions about gender and had their identity attacked as a result know how hurtful it is. It cuts right to core of who you are as a person. So yeah, male victims aren't going to feel comfortable saying they've been abused, and more so the more tightly they hold to those definitions of masculinity. This old conception of gender identity is part of what feminism is trying to confront, but that's only starting to happen now that the nuts-and-bolts stuff about equal access to the social and economic spheres of life is pretty much established in some places.
I think there's a certain unconscious knowledge that there's a really good chance that one of the women in earshot might have been raped, and that puts the kibosh on it for people. Unless you're in a room full of ex-cons, that's not really an assumptions that can be made as easily about a room full of guys. The average male who hasn't been a prisoner is far less likely to be raped, especally as an adult, in the end.
I was going to make this very point, and you did so. Good thing I has me a preview button.
The footnote to add to that is to also point out that your example is also adequate by pointing out that it's usually not the "hard" criminals, your murderers and rapists and drug enforcers, who are the victims. It's usually the dude who is doing federal time for grand theft. That's not just a size issue, that's an issue of attitude and who the person is.
:x
Masculinity is easily the weaker of the two gender attitudes. Masculinity always needs to prove its self and is easily and usually always manipulated by femininity.
This thread is giving me such deja vu, too...
thats not what I wanted my post to come across as. What I wanted to say is that masculinity is just easily and simply manipulated by how we as a culture think men should act.
Femininity is as well. Daytime TV commercials are pretty much a testament to this fact.
Where exactly do those Brawny commercials fit?
I guess if pressed, I'd go with the big strong man who can jump in to help with those messes too big to handle all by one's little self. Mr. Clean as well.
For example: I played football and hockey in high school. This, one would think, would classify me as a "jock". I would be expected to be crude but fun-loving, strong but emotionally repressive, and all that other bullshit masculine crap.
And yet, that's not the case. I enjoy art and good wine and I used to do ballet. I listen to classical music and I love the opportunity to see some musical theatre.
This doesn't make me some kind of freak oddity. It means my hobbies are diverse and are not necessarily indicative of some cultural attitude I don't even have.
I think it's an important distinction to make, since in many cases it's not the activities themselves which are masculine or feminine or reinforce any kind of attitude, but rather, the cultures that have grown around them. Cultures which can, and in some cases would stand to benefit if they were, removed from the base activity.
Women are still sort of though of as belonging to the males they relate to, even if only in a subconscious way, and I think that's why the raping of a woman its made a bigger deal of than the raping of a man. Along similar lines, how many people care if they see a guy of their race with a woman of another, versus a woman of their race with a man of another? Eventually the protective/possessive/macho attitude will probably fade and we'll all be able to enjoy a good laugh over women getting raped too.
The short answer is a lot. Seriously.