The Tao of Craps (or how to roll dice and not be dumb)

Gabriel_Pitt

I'm going to be in Vegas for CES, and while I don't 'do' gambling (I hate losing money, and being involved in events with uncertain outcomes), I figure I might as well try and have some fun in the casinos, and I do like dice rolling games, so aside from feeding $5 to a slot machine, I figured I'd give craps a try.

I've read the wiki article, as well as the Wizard of Odds article on it, but I'm still not quite grokking how things work. I'm figuring I'll just take $200 as losable money, and if I could walk away with some of that left, that'd be great. So if anyone can bestow me with craptacular wisdom on how to not look like a fool at the table or lose all my money too fast, that'd be great.

VThornheart

The first rule of Craps is that, most likely, you're not going to win... so if you're going with that attitude (which it sounds like you're trying to), you're already doing better than some.

The second rule is that if you want to have the best social time possible, don't bet against the table.

Craps is a game that hooks people in with the notion that you're all "in it together". That means that, if you're there to have fun and make friends, you should always bet on the Pass Line. (in general, it's also one of the safest bets on the table) That way, when the table wins you win, and vice versa. Very social that way. That also means you should never bet "Don't Pass".

Next, don't ever bet on any of the "one roll" bets. Don't bet hardways, don't bet field bets, don't bet proposition bets. Unless you want to throw your money away. You might as well EAT your money instead of bet on these.

DO bet on free odds on the pass line. This is, actually, the best bet you can make in the casino. Once a point has been established, you can bet here basically by placing the chips directly under your pass line bet. The only real risk is that, if I remember correctly, you have to make a Pass Line bet to even be allowed to bet on this (but you'll be doing that anyways).

Also, go here for a very brief summary of all the bets you can do. But whatever you do, ignore all the shiny bets in the middle of the table. They are horrible.

http://www.nextshooter.com/bets

vonPoonBurGer

I'm not a big gambler either, but I've had fun playing craps. Usually it's been with a bunch of people I know, and I think that generally makes it more fun, what with all the hooting and hollering that goes on. I'm hardly an expert, but here's the bets I usually make:

- bet on the Pass line, usually the table minimum, because you pretty much have to
- once a point has been established, bet on Pass Odds (goes behind your bet on the Pass line, but don't put it on the Pass line); I usually bet whatever the house will let me, because it's one of the best bets you can make in a casino. Sometimes the limit is equal to your Pass line bet, sometimes it's double, sometimes higher
- also put place bets on 6 and 8, again right after the point is established. Just remember that you have to put a multiple of 6 on those two, because the odds pay 7:6. So if it's a $5 minimum table, you'd bet $6 (a 5 chip and a 1 chip) and they'll pay you $7 every time the shooter rolls a 6 or an 8. Until he rolls a 7 and they take all your money away, that is. :P
- if I'm up some, I'll also put place bets on 5 and 9 after the point has been established. Those are in standard $5 increments.
- if I'm up a bunch, I'll throw the table minimum on a hard six or hard eight now and then. It's pretty much a throwaway bet, but every now and then it pays out big, which is fun

If I was up a ton and feeling frisky, I'd also consider putting place bets on 4 and 10 and buying the odds. You usually have to bet at least $25 to do this, because the house usually charges you a 5% commission to buy the odds. The benefit is that they pay you true odds (2:1) if the shooter rolls a 4 or a 10. I saw a guy rake in close to a $1000 dollars in under an hour because the shooter kept rolling fours and tens, it was ridiculous. Protip: don't expect this to happen to you, and realize that the guy who hauled in a grand has probably lost 10x that or more over the years playing craps.

With the exception of the hardway bets, those are most of the bets you can make where the house advantage is under 5%, unless you start betting against the shooter. I wouldn't recommend betting against the shooter (e.g. "don't pass", "don't come", lay bets on 4-5-6-8-9-10) unless you're Ok with getting dirty looks from the other people at the table. VThornheart is right on the money, what makes craps fun is the "team atmosphere" that develops when a shooter is on a hot streak, and nothing excludes you from the team faster than betting against it.

One note regarding place bets (those boxes with 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 in them), you don't have to put the money into the box yourself. Just put it on the table in reach of the base dealer and tell him/her what the bet is for, e.g. "six on six, six on eight". They have a system they use so they can remember which place bets belong to which players, so just tell them what you want to bet on and let them take care of it.

VThornheart

Aye, if you do place bets, 6 and 8 are the only ones I would consider... though I'm not much of a gambling man. The 4, 5, 9, and 10 place bets have pretty bad odds of success, but they can indeed be entertaining if you win them.

LaOs

The other key thing to remember for a beginner is that once the point is made, your bets do not ever "lose" until the shooter craps out with a 7. Those bets on 6 and 8 that they're talking about will sit there, winning every time those numbers come up, until you take them off (just ask for the money back) or the shooter craps out.

You must remember, however, that most of the middle bets and a few others can be one-time bets. Those are bets for the next roll and that roll only. They either win or lose right there.

But, for the most part, your bets will stay on the table roll after roll. So, if you bet 6 and 8 for three rolls and then figure your luck is running out, just ask for the bets back. That way you can keep the money when the shooter craps out!

I think the only bet you cannot take back is your initial line bet, however.

vonPoonBurGer

VThornheart wrote: »

Aye, if you do place bets, 6 and 8 are the only ones I would consider... though I'm not much of a gambling man. The 4, 5, 9, and 10 place bets have pretty bad odds of success, but they can indeed be entertaining if you win them.

The odds for place bets other than 6 and 8 aren't very good, it's true, but the payouts are better, so it evens out. For place bets on 5 and 9, the overall house advantage is 4%. Mind you, the house advantage on 6 and 8 is something like 1.5%, so placing bets on 5 and 9 are definitely inferior in that regard. If you're a conservative player, then Pass line, Pass odds and place bets on 6 and 8 are all you should really worry about. Personally, I like placing bets on 5 and 9 because it gives me two more outcomes that pay me money, I find being more involved in the game is more fun, and the house advantage isn't atrociously large. And like I was saying, I usually only do this if I'm up a little bet, and thus have a bigger cushion so these 5 and 9 bets don't majorly deplete my stack when someone rolls a 7.

VThornheart

Aye, agreed. It all depends on playstyle.

If your playstyle is mere survival (aka being in front of the table as long as possible, taking in the social atmosphere of Craps), play as conservatively as possible (don't even place bet at all at that point). But if your playstyle is to take some risks, go for it

Also, if you're going just for the atmosphere, be sure to look at all the craps tables first. To get the best experience, you'll want to find the loudest, most obnoxious, most rowdy group you can. Believe me, it is a LOT of fun to play in a group like that. I was in a casino in Montreal once (I think it was Montreal), it was me and my friends' first time gambling, and we went to a loud table and stood next to a guy in a fancy suit. Everyone called him the "Senator" (though I don't think he was one... maybe he was?), but the guy was an absolute laugh riot. The whole table erupted into cheers whenever the dice rolled in their favor, and participated in a wide variety of interesting craps supersititons that were amusing. I blew 50 bucks after about an hour of play, but it was worth it for the crowd experience.

Oh, speaking of craps superstitions, never actually mention the word "craps" at a craps table. And if someone wants you to blow on their dice, you'd better fucking blow on them without hesitation. There were others too, but I can't remember them all. Maybe others have good stories. Things to be careful of and have fun observing.

So yeah, find that riotous table and jump in.

vonPoonBurGer

VThornheart wrote: »

Oh, speaking of craps superstitions, never actually mention the word "craps" at a craps table. And if someone wants you to blow on their dice, you'd better fucking blow on them without hesitation. There were others too, but I can't remember them all. Maybe others have good stories. Things to be careful of and have fun observing.

Once the shooter has established a point, don't say the word "seven". Speak the name of the devil and he shall appear, and all that jazz.

VThornheart

Aye, true lol

3lwap0

Also - important rule. When it's your turn to shoot the dice, touch the dice with only one hand.

Found that one out the hard way.

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acidlacedpenguin

is ther some sort of ettiquette to the actual rolling of the dice? If memory serves me correctly theres stacks of chips everywhere, do you just throw them down willy nilly or do you try to strategically bounce the dice around the chips?

VThornheart

I believe your main goal is to hit the far wall when you toss (that is, if you look at the table like a kitchen table, there's a head and foot. If you're nearest the head, hit the foot with the dice. If you're nearest the foot, hit the head.) Not too big of a deal if they happen to hit the chips, as long as they hit that far wall. My first roll I wasn't sure what they wanted me to do, so I just rolled them right in front of me, and the dealer declared it a misroll (I was booed And then the Senator told me how to do it right).

3lwap0

acidlacedpenguin wrote: »

is ther some sort of ettiquette to the actual rolling of the dice? If memory serves me correctly theres stacks of chips everywhere, do you just throw them down willy nilly or do you try to strategically bounce the dice around the chips?

Pretty much willy nilly. Just try not to throw'em so damn hard the fly off the table - that'll quickly put you on a shitlist. There's four dealers per table, and they keep track of all the shit.

Also - pro-tip. It's considered smart to wait until a shooter craps out before placing bets on the table. Most dealers hate some random asshole throwing chips at them mid-roll, if they even let you.

VThornheart

Oh, that's right! Good point 3l, I forgot to mention that. Hit the far wall, but not hard enough that the dice go tumbling off the table.

And once you've let go of the dice, do not touch them... even if they fall off the table.

However, there are some bets where you have to place them before the current shooter craps out. No one's going to blame you for putting money down between rolls if the current roller hasn't crapped out... but I think what 3l might have meant was don't put down money while the dice are actually in the process of being thrown. Definitely don't do that.

Wulf

One thing I've found tends to pan out is that if the point is four, go ahead and bet some change on the Hard Four. There are only two ways for a four to come up, so why not right?
I've always been a cautious craps player (at least until my last day) and managed to spend a whole week in Reno with just $60 by playing the line, tossing a spare chip or two on the hard four and only playing when the table is crowded, which honestly doesn't truly guarantee anything but does make it more fun!

VThornheart

It definitely makes it more fun, but don't be fooled into thinking that because the point's on four there's a greater chance that you're going to hit the 4 hardway next (or even hit a 4 at all). The odds are still terrible, regardless of prior rolls. I believe that's a variant of a gambler's fallacy.

But if it makes you have more fun as a result, go for it. I'm not trying to discourage it, just want to make you aware of the fact that statistics on what number will come up next doesn't change meaningfully based on the number that happens to be point.

Evil_Reaver

Also, when the dealer says "Hands up" that's your signal to get your hands out of the playing area. You don't want to be that guy who hits a roll because you weren't paying attention.

Also also, don't use your cell phone at the table. You will get yelled at. A lot.

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VThornheart

mcdermott wrote: »

VThornheart wrote: »

It definitely makes it more fun, but don't be fooled into thinking that because the point's on four there's a greater chance that you're going to hit the 4 hardway next (or even hit a 4 at all). The odds are still terrible, regardless of prior rolls. I believe that's a variant of a gambler's fallacy.

But if it makes you have more fun as a result, go for it. I'm not trying to discourage it, just want to make you aware of the fact that statistics on what number will come up next doesn't change meaningfully based on the number that happens to be point.

Do the statistics on what number will come up next change at all based on the number that's the point? Or the number that was just rolled? Or anything at all? Seems like each roll has the exact same odds as any other...it's not like a BJ shoe where as cards come out the odds change.

I was just accounting in case there was a smartass comment about some kind of coincidental difference that I couldn't account for... every time I say there's "no" change in the odds of something, someone points out something stupid that I couldn't have thought of (like that the act of the dice hitting the wall deforms them in some way causing a .00000000001% change in the odds of hitting blah blah or whatever such nonsense), so to avoid that debate I just say "Negligible"... when I really mean "none".

mcdermott wrote: »

Evil_Reaver wrote: »

Also also, don't use your cell phone at the table. You will get yelled at. A lot.

By players, or by the dealer? Is it, like, just rude or will the casino have your ass for it? Just seems odd, since unlike other games (like BJ) there's no magic you can do with a cellphone to "cheat" in any meaningful way at craps.

It would make you a tremendous douchebag, though.

Aye, I think that's the big issue, because it's such a social game people don't like their social circle being interrupted by someone else's conversation. Like making love, you have to be in the moment and with the people you're with when playing Craps.

Okay, that was a wierd analogy, but it's true.

Six

Wulf wrote: »

One thing I've found tends to pan out is that if the point is four, go ahead and bet some change on the Hard Four. There are only two ways for a four to come up, so why not right?
I've always been a cautious craps player (at least until my last day) and managed to spend a whole week in Reno with just $60 by playing the line, tossing a spare chip or two on the hard four and only playing when the table is crowded, which honestly doesn't truly guarantee anything but does make it more fun!

I tend to put money down on a hard anything on an even point (so if the point is four, I'll bet hard four, hard six if six, etc). A dollar at a time as my place bets come in, usually. Horrible odds, but with a good shooter that last a while, it adds up, and makes hitting the point hard that much more fun.

Evil_Reaver

mcdermott wrote: »

VThornheart wrote: »

It definitely makes it more fun, but don't be fooled into thinking that because the point's on four there's a greater chance that you're going to hit the 4 hardway next (or even hit a 4 at all). The odds are still terrible, regardless of prior rolls. I believe that's a variant of a gambler's fallacy.

But if it makes you have more fun as a result, go for it. I'm not trying to discourage it, just want to make you aware of the fact that statistics on what number will come up next doesn't change meaningfully based on the number that happens to be point.

Do the statistics on what number will come up next change at all based on the number that's the point? Or the number that was just rolled? Or anything at all? Seems like each roll has the exact same odds as any other...it's not like a BJ shoe where as cards come out the odds change.

Evil_Reaver wrote: »

Also also, don't use your cell phone at the table. You will get yelled at. A lot.

By players, or by the dealer? Is it, like, just rude or will the casino have your ass for it? Just seems odd, since unlike other games (like BJ) there's no magic you can do with a cellphone to "cheat" in any meaningful way at craps.

It would make you a tremendous douchebag, though.

The dealer will break your hands if you use your cell phone at the table.

I've seen it. It wasn't pretty.

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Wulf

VThornheart wrote: »

It definitely makes it more fun, but don't be fooled into thinking that because the point's on four there's a greater chance that you're going to hit the 4 hardway next (or even hit a 4 at all). The odds are still terrible, regardless of prior rolls. I believe that's a variant of a gambler's fallacy.

But if it makes you have more fun as a result, go for it. I'm not trying to discourage it, just want to make you aware of the fact that statistics on what number will come up next doesn't change meaningfully based on the number that happens to be point.

Whats this next roll business... Hard ways stay on until that number is called :P I just play it because its less than the line bid to get on it, and if you end up winning the line bet its a 50/50 shot its also a hard four. Little bit more risk, but much better gains.

Oh and I forgot my number one rule!
If you start to win, take all your original chips and put them away. Pocket, bag, whatever, just put your original money away! Then start playing with only your profit. Win some more? Put that in the bag too! Then just play until your pockets are full or your slot at the table is empty. Just never take anything back out of that container until you cash out

VThornheart

Oh, I didn't mean next roll, I meant next roll of a four... I think that came across wrong.

But the odds haven't changed. You still have the same odds of hitting the 4 hardway (or losing that bet) if 4's the point or not. Not that I'm saying it's not a fun bet to make, but I am saying that the odds don't change.

Wulf

No doubt I just miss-spoke slightly.

VThornheart

Oh, that's okay, we both did.

Gabriel_Pitt

Wulf wrote: »

One thing I've found tends to pan out is that if the point is four, go ahead and bet some change on the Hard Four. There are only two ways for a four to come up, so why not right?

Three ways, actually. There are two combinations of 3 and 1, and one of 2 and 2.

Anyways, I wanted to thank everyone for their posts. I ended up playing craps at the Vegas Hilton, and started out with $120. Two and a half hours later, I walked away with $130.

Daemonion

Read this "How Stuff Works" article on craps.

Also, if it is your first time gambling, play blackjack. It has the best odds to win and is also easy if you play by the book.

VThornheart

Nice, well done GP!

EDIT: Did you run into any crazy/entertaining craps players?

Wulf

Gabriel_Pitt wrote: »

Wulf wrote: »

One thing I've found tends to pan out is that if the point is four, go ahead and bet some change on the Hard Four. There are only two ways for a four to come up, so why not right?

Three ways, actually. There are two combinations of 3 and 1, and one of 2 and 2.

Anyways, I wanted to thank everyone for their posts. I ended up playing craps at the Vegas Hilton, and started out with $120. Two and a half hours later, I walked away with $130.

Good man

acidlacedpenguin

if you are the shooter will it still be bad ju-ju to bet against yourself (ie, the don't come and don't pass bars)?

VThornheart

Yes, I believe that's even worse ju-ju. No one wants the tosser HIMSELF to be unconfident about his odds.