I don't find the lack of font resizing to be prohibitive to browsing the web, though it's a stupid feature (obviously) to leave out of a mobile browser. No doubt apple will add it eventually, though they'll take their sweet time as they're stubborn about admitting they were wrong about leaving features out (look how long it took for them to announce copy and paste.)
But as said it's not a deal breaker, just a stupid design choice. The PA forum index is comfortable to view zoomed out completely in landscape mode, and thread titles are still legible (if squinty) zoomed out in portrait. PA thread text is easily read in full screen landscape mode, though not all pages are like that.
Generally speaking pages arrange content in vertical collumns, so for a lot of pages, browsing goes like this:
Go to page, zoomed out. Double tap area you want to view (zooms to width --so if I double tap text someone posted in this thread the text will span one edge of the screen to the other.) scroll down as you read.
Not really a lot of horizontal scrolling for me (more while writing posts like this one than when browsing.)
Safari should allow font resizing, but it's still a world better than browsing pages butchered by opera mini. Opera mobile seems about as good to me.
The lack of word-wrap is actually the reason why I like using the iphone's browser. For whatever reason, every single phone I've ever used that had word-wrap was really slow/clunky when I scrolled down to view more text. Add to that the fact that web2.0 stylings (hurf durf) don't work well with cellphone screens, and you can see even more why it makes sense. My HTC Touch does word-wrap, and browsing is a pain in the ass. I'm getting a diamond soon, and I'll let you know how that compares, but I'd imagine it still a pain in the ass.
I too don't really understand the fascination behind word wrap, but to each his own.
I'd rather view the content exactly how it was made to be viewed.
It's just good for articles, since all you have to do is move your thumb up and down to scroll, not having to pan around the web page to read an article.
It's especially easier when reading long articles, like say, on Ars Technica.
It can be disabled though, at least on Android.
victor_c26 on
It's been so long since I've posted here, I've removed my signature since most of what I had here were broken links. Shows over, you can carry on to the next post.
Word wrap always seems to FUBAR every page with anything other than text. I mostly use my phone to check the news and read forums, both of which are more than just text and become irritating to browse with word wrap. Perhaps if there's some way in which formatting could be partially preserved while still having word wrap, but that's just wishful thinking.
Word wrap always seems to FUBAR every page with anything other than text. I mostly use my phone to check the news and read forums, both of which are more than just text and become irritating to browse with word wrap. Perhaps if there's some way in which formatting could be partially preserved while still having word wrap, but that's just wishful thinking.
Maybe your browser sucks dawg. Opera Mini's word wrap, both for the forums and news sites/blogojigs is excellent. I tried using Opera Mobile on the Omnia a little while ago and it was incredibly obnoxious. Constantly rerendering, obnoxiously slow scrolling due to the rendering when zoomed in. Then just a general mess with the touch screen only deal.
I use Opera Mini on my blackberry (Mobile hasn't been made for blackberry yet. ) and the word wrap is the best thing about it. I use it to keep up with my D&D pbp thread and I just zoom in once and it wraps the text to fit the zoomed area and keeps everything legible. Considering there's not too much stuff one would need on the sides of the PA page, it's very nice. For other pages though? I could see how word wrap would be annoying.
I think having the option is better than not. Easy enough to turn it on and off.
but at the expense of another option?
At the expense of what other option? What kind of false choice are you presenting here? I think someone mentioned the default Android browser lets you choose whether to wrap or not. I know there are third party Android browsers that will let you do it.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the Prē get onto more networks. I'm on ATT, and I've got an iPhone (1st Gen.) currently. I think I'd drop the iPhone though if ATT offered the Prē.
I hope Palm knocks one out of the park with this phone; if for no other reason than to hopefully get other companies to try to fucking compete and do new things.
Ever time we discuss features, I discover more and more that the iPhone lacks.
I honestly do not understand why everyone raves about it, seeing as it doesn't seem to do anything.
Have you tried one in the store? Thing is, despite lack of video recording, MMS, or clipboard support, the iPhone's UI design makes it so nice to use that for a lot of folks, it's worth foregoing those things just to have a phone that works so nicely.
Which is one of the reasons people are excited about the Pre; it seems like it's going to give the iPhone a run for its money in the UI department while also adding more features and useful stuff.
I like my iphone for being a portable web browser and media player. My w810i was a better 'phone' of a phone (and a better mp3 player actually).
I'm one of many people totally disappointed by some lacking features in the iphone (including MMS, video, copy and paste) but I also got my iphone for free (and my w810's charger was lost in a car wreck, so I really DID need a phone right away.)
With the patches Apple's doing I think the iphone's (will be) pretty impressive, but right now it's only impressive in the sense of being a good browser / pmp / software machine, all of which it excels at.
Ever time we discuss features, I discover more and more that the iPhone lacks.
I honestly do not understand why everyone raves about it, seeing as it doesn't seem to do anything.
Is it? I thought you were joking.
Honest answer, is that as tech gadget, even lacking so many features that so many phones have, it still does so many of the things that it does do better.
The screen is a joy to use, the display is (yes, in a nod to Obs) big, bright, and readable. And it was the first phone with a real, usable browser built right into the device. It's still the best phone for playing music and video.
Features on paper aren't everything, things can't just be reduced to a checkmark in a box, and that's what Apple at least partly understands, and that's where the iPhone excels -- big, bright icons, easy to touch, motion transitions, easy access to programs. The interface is quick, and it was visually designed by someone with an actual art degree, rather than a programmer just printf()'ing unformatted text to a screen.
It's fun to use, and that's what in the end makes a device -- not just the features.
The thing is, by all indications, this is what the Palm Pre is getting right too. And that my friend, is what makes Obs the complete idiot that everyone in this thread keeps calling him.
Ever time we discuss features, I discover more and more that the iPhone lacks.
I honestly do not understand why everyone raves about it, seeing as it doesn't seem to do anything.
Have you tried one in the store? Thing is, despite lack of video recording, MMS, or clipboard support, the iPhone's UI design makes it so nice to use that for a lot of folks, it's worth foregoing those things just to have a phone that works so nicely.
Which is one of the reasons people are excited about the Pre; it seems like it's going to give the iPhone a run for its money in the UI department while also adding more features and useful stuff.
I;ve played around with an iPod touch. I've never gone in to a store that had an iPhone on display, so if there is some significant difference, I wouldn't know.
The UI doesn't impress me. It doesn't seem significant;y easier to me than anything else. It really just strikes me as group-think.
Ever time we discuss features, I discover more and more that the iPhone lacks.
I honestly do not understand why everyone raves about it, seeing as it doesn't seem to do anything.
Have you tried one in the store? Thing is, despite lack of video recording, MMS, or clipboard support, the iPhone's UI design makes it so nice to use that for a lot of folks, it's worth foregoing those things just to have a phone that works so nicely.
Which is one of the reasons people are excited about the Pre; it seems like it's going to give the iPhone a run for its money in the UI department while also adding more features and useful stuff.
I;ve played around with an iPod touch. I've never gone in to a store that had an iPhone on display, so if there is some significant difference, I wouldn't know.
The UI doesn't impress me. It doesn't seem significant;y easier to me than anything else. It really just strikes me as group-think.
Personally I find the iPhone UI really lacking. Background: I used an iBook all through college, and I currently use an iMac for work. I like Apple products. I have also had two iPods, and bought an aluminum Apple keyboard which I'm currently typing on for my Vista PC. I am not an Apple zealot, all these tmes I've also own Windows computer, and currently have a Zune.
I give credit where it's due. As a graphic designer, one who specializes in user-interface design - exclusively for touch screens (kiosks), I think Apple fucked up with the UI. There's a lot of little instances where things could have, and should have been done better. One main complaint I have is the main menu scren, where you just have a grid of icons. And you can have many of these grid-screens, side by side. My problem: you have no fucking clue where anything is. Yes, you can manually sort, but essentially the way it comes down to knowing where you need to go to launch anything, is pure memory. You have to know where in the grid, and what page everything is on. This is bad UI design, period. It's the same thing people bitch about if they use someone else's computer and the desktop is just filled with icons. It's poor usability.
There's also the whole lack of consistency - some Apple apps you can view in landscape, others you can't. I only find the landscape keyboard usable, yet you can't get landscape mode in the email app (have they fixed this yet?). All this couple with Apples very tight control of the system, means I'll probably never get one. To think, I was ecstatic when they were first announced and planned on buying one. Thank god my fiancee bit the bullet first and I got a chance to actually use it. I hate the fucking thing now.
Groupthink is a dangerous thing. Obviously not always on the challenger scale, but the point is that it subverts the way that people truly feel in favor of the way that they perceive others want them to feel.
Deciding that all people only like something because of group think is also dumb though. I think that possibly one of the key reasons the iPhone interface has been so well received, is how useless everything else was before it.
Before Apple announced the iPhone I used Windows Mobile, a lot (and a Sony Ericsson p800 before that). I was at university at the time, doing a degree in multimedia and interface design, and as a consequence I spent a lot of time thinking about how to improve the mobile touchscreen interface. My personal conclusion was they needed to throw away the stylus.
I think the core implementation of the iphone ui is fantastic, although I agree with Odium that the home screen is crappy. I imagine that Apple was caught with its pants down, and kludged this awful page thing together in a rush when they realised people wanted more software, and therefore more than one screen of icons.
In terms of Apple vs Pre, I prefer the physical size of the iPhone, and the lack of keyboard (I know, but I think one input method forces developers to polish rather than compromise). I'd buy a Pre if the screen were larger, and if the thing integrates as well with my Mac as the iPhone does. The UI is so similar that neither really has an advantage imo.
Groupthink is a dangerous thing. Obviously not always on the challenger scale, but the point is that it subverts the way that people truly feel in favor of the way that they perceive others want them to feel.
I'm not saying that the iphone is without merit, but the fact stands that the amount of parroting that goes on, there is definitely some element of groupthink in play. Obs is actually the proof of that ("no one needs cut&paste:, "it's actually better to NOT have word wrap", etc.)
One of the parroting bits that I have trouble understanding is the whole "best mobile internet" line. I've used the browser on an iPod touch, and it never struck me as anything special. In addition, it's missing features that I see as necessary (word wrap, physical keyboard, and more) which makes it all the stanger to em.
I'm curious to see how the Pre works out, although admittedly I'm a bit more interested in the Pro. I'm just used to WinMo at this point.
Groupthink is a dangerous thing. Obviously not always on the challenger scale, but the point is that it subverts the way that people truly feel in favor of the way that they perceive others want them to feel.
The Challenger space shuttle explosion?
Yes. It could have been prevented, and should have been, but groupthink kept people from recognizing the issues with the launch. Everything that went wrong was predicted up front, but those making the predictions were pressured in to retracting them, and going along with everyone else's thinking on the matter instead. The guy who predicted it all ended up killing himself over the guilt of it.
I'm NOT comparing that to the iPhone. I'm just answering your question of what is wrong with groupthink.
My personal conclusion was they needed to throw away the stylus.
There's not enough lime and bold to express how true this is. Stylus navigation is a miserable way to navigate. I've trained myself to use my HTC Touch without a stylus, and that's probably one of the reasons why the phone irritates me.
My personal conclusion was they needed to throw away the stylus.
There's not enough lime and bold to express how true this is. Stylus navigation is a miserable way to navigate. I've trained myself to use my HTC Touch without a stylus, and that's probably one of the reasons why the phone irritates me.
a thousand times no.
The HTC Touch Pro does it right. The interface is designed to be used by fingers, but there is still a stylus present for text selection and other times when a more specific touch is needed.
Phones need to be designed for fingers, but don't throw out the stylus entirely. Having an option for precision is not a bad thing.
My personal conclusion was they needed to throw away the stylus.
There's not enough lime and bold to express how true this is. Stylus navigation is a miserable way to navigate. I've trained myself to use my HTC Touch without a stylus, and that's probably one of the reasons why the phone irritates me.
a thousand times no.
The HTC Touch Pro does it right. The interface is designed to be used by fingers, but there is still a stylus present for text selection and other times when a more specific touch is needed.
Phones need to be designed for fingers, but don't throw out the stylus entirely. Having an option for precision is not a bad thing.
As of right now, yes it is. Again, you have the whole idea of "choice makes everything better" in your head, instead of the reality of "choice gives you a neutered version of both options". In my opinion, having to use the stylus to click a link means that the web browsing is awful. If you want to keep that relic of ages past around, give us the option to not use it EVER if we don't want to. There are plenty of reasons why I could want a stylus, but most of those times I prefer to use a pen without the ball-point out, as it's much more comfortable to hold and write with. If they can make the stylus something that can be used comfortably, it would be a good idea. As for right now, I still prefer scroll-wheels as a means of jumping between selectable items over stylus use.
The problem with fingers only is that the web itself is not made for it. Links can be TINY. I don't want to have to zoom in 3 times before it's big enough to distinguish between which of the 3 threads I want to select. If I can also have stylus control, I can skip zooming and select that link with precision.
There should always be multiple ways of completing each task (I forget what the UI sweet spot is, 3?), so forcing users to zoom in to make things large enough to distinguish what link you are clicking is only 1 way. So it needs 2 more. Perhaps a Blackberry style mouse pointer (first thing that popped into my head since I have an 8350) that you can drag onto the link for finger+precision, and a stylus could be the other 2.
The problem with fingers only is that the web itself is not made for it. Links can be TINY. I don't want to have to zoom in 3 times before it's big enough to distinguish between which of the 3 threads I want to select. If I can also have stylus control, I can skip zooming and select that link with precision.
There should always be multiple ways of completing each task (I forget what the UI sweet spot is, 3?), so forcing users to zoom in to make things large enough to distinguish what link you are clicking is only 1 way. So it needs 2 more. Perhaps a Blackberry style mouse pointer (first thing that popped into my head since I have an 8350) that you can drag onto the link for finger+precision, and a stylus could be the other 2.
that's how I feel.
You also have to rememebr that fingers aren't standardized. If you make something that can be used by ANY size fingers, then folks with small fingers will complain about wasted screen space. If you try to find a compromise, then you end up making it difficult to use for people with larger fingers.
You can standardize the size of the tip of your stylus.
And as for not liking the SIZE of a stylus, then buy a bigger one. No one says you have to use one that slides in to the side of a system, you can just as easily buy one of the retractable stylus/pens out there, and just carry it in your pocket.
Posts
But as said it's not a deal breaker, just a stupid design choice. The PA forum index is comfortable to view zoomed out completely in landscape mode, and thread titles are still legible (if squinty) zoomed out in portrait. PA thread text is easily read in full screen landscape mode, though not all pages are like that.
Generally speaking pages arrange content in vertical collumns, so for a lot of pages, browsing goes like this:
Go to page, zoomed out. Double tap area you want to view (zooms to width --so if I double tap text someone posted in this thread the text will span one edge of the screen to the other.) scroll down as you read.
Not really a lot of horizontal scrolling for me (more while writing posts like this one than when browsing.)
Safari should allow font resizing, but it's still a world better than browsing pages butchered by opera mini. Opera mobile seems about as good to me.
I'd rather view the content exactly how it was made to be viewed.
It's just good for articles, since all you have to do is move your thumb up and down to scroll, not having to pan around the web page to read an article.
It's especially easier when reading long articles, like say, on Ars Technica.
It can be disabled though, at least on Android.
but at the expense of another option?
Which one, cut and paste?
No. How can you say that the absence of choice is superior?
Hi, have you met obs? o_O
It's just that he isn't trolling; he believes what he's saying.
Which means that when you press him, you get some really hilarious gems.
I think he means video capture.
You mean video capture, right Obs?
Or was that MMS?
I'M A TWITTER SHITTER
wait, are you implying that the iphone doesn't do videos?
Why the hell does anyone like that phone, again?
This is not trolling?
...
Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the Prē get onto more networks. I'm on ATT, and I've got an iPhone (1st Gen.) currently. I think I'd drop the iPhone though if ATT offered the Prē.
I hope Palm knocks one out of the park with this phone; if for no other reason than to hopefully get other companies to try to fucking compete and do new things.
Ever time we discuss features, I discover more and more that the iPhone lacks.
I honestly do not understand why everyone raves about it, seeing as it doesn't seem to do anything.
Have you tried one in the store? Thing is, despite lack of video recording, MMS, or clipboard support, the iPhone's UI design makes it so nice to use that for a lot of folks, it's worth foregoing those things just to have a phone that works so nicely.
Which is one of the reasons people are excited about the Pre; it seems like it's going to give the iPhone a run for its money in the UI department while also adding more features and useful stuff.
PSN:RevDrGalactus/NN:RevDrGalactus/Steam
I'm one of many people totally disappointed by some lacking features in the iphone (including MMS, video, copy and paste) but I also got my iphone for free (and my w810's charger was lost in a car wreck, so I really DID need a phone right away.)
With the patches Apple's doing I think the iphone's (will be) pretty impressive, but right now it's only impressive in the sense of being a good browser / pmp / software machine, all of which it excels at.
Is it? I thought you were joking.
Honest answer, is that as tech gadget, even lacking so many features that so many phones have, it still does so many of the things that it does do better.
The screen is a joy to use, the display is (yes, in a nod to Obs) big, bright, and readable. And it was the first phone with a real, usable browser built right into the device. It's still the best phone for playing music and video.
Features on paper aren't everything, things can't just be reduced to a checkmark in a box, and that's what Apple at least partly understands, and that's where the iPhone excels -- big, bright icons, easy to touch, motion transitions, easy access to programs. The interface is quick, and it was visually designed by someone with an actual art degree, rather than a programmer just printf()'ing unformatted text to a screen.
It's fun to use, and that's what in the end makes a device -- not just the features.
The thing is, by all indications, this is what the Palm Pre is getting right too. And that my friend, is what makes Obs the complete idiot that everyone in this thread keeps calling him.
I'M A TWITTER SHITTER
I;ve played around with an iPod touch. I've never gone in to a store that had an iPhone on display, so if there is some significant difference, I wouldn't know.
The UI doesn't impress me. It doesn't seem significant;y easier to me than anything else. It really just strikes me as group-think.
What's wrong with group think?
Too conformist for you?
Gotta stab at Apple from afar?
I give credit where it's due. As a graphic designer, one who specializes in user-interface design - exclusively for touch screens (kiosks), I think Apple fucked up with the UI. There's a lot of little instances where things could have, and should have been done better. One main complaint I have is the main menu scren, where you just have a grid of icons. And you can have many of these grid-screens, side by side. My problem: you have no fucking clue where anything is. Yes, you can manually sort, but essentially the way it comes down to knowing where you need to go to launch anything, is pure memory. You have to know where in the grid, and what page everything is on. This is bad UI design, period. It's the same thing people bitch about if they use someone else's computer and the desktop is just filled with icons. It's poor usability.
There's also the whole lack of consistency - some Apple apps you can view in landscape, others you can't. I only find the landscape keyboard usable, yet you can't get landscape mode in the email app (have they fixed this yet?). All this couple with Apples very tight control of the system, means I'll probably never get one. To think, I was ecstatic when they were first announced and planned on buying one. Thank god my fiancee bit the bullet first and I got a chance to actually use it. I hate the fucking thing now.
Ever heard of the Challenger?
Groupthink is a dangerous thing. Obviously not always on the challenger scale, but the point is that it subverts the way that people truly feel in favor of the way that they perceive others want them to feel.
Before Apple announced the iPhone I used Windows Mobile, a lot (and a Sony Ericsson p800 before that). I was at university at the time, doing a degree in multimedia and interface design, and as a consequence I spent a lot of time thinking about how to improve the mobile touchscreen interface. My personal conclusion was they needed to throw away the stylus.
I think the core implementation of the iphone ui is fantastic, although I agree with Odium that the home screen is crappy. I imagine that Apple was caught with its pants down, and kludged this awful page thing together in a rush when they realised people wanted more software, and therefore more than one screen of icons.
In terms of Apple vs Pre, I prefer the physical size of the iPhone, and the lack of keyboard (I know, but I think one input method forces developers to polish rather than compromise). I'd buy a Pre if the screen were larger, and if the thing integrates as well with my Mac as the iPhone does. The UI is so similar that neither really has an advantage imo.
The Challenger space shuttle explosion?
One of the parroting bits that I have trouble understanding is the whole "best mobile internet" line. I've used the browser on an iPod touch, and it never struck me as anything special. In addition, it's missing features that I see as necessary (word wrap, physical keyboard, and more) which makes it all the stanger to em.
I'm curious to see how the Pre works out, although admittedly I'm a bit more interested in the Pro. I'm just used to WinMo at this point.
Yes. It could have been prevented, and should have been, but groupthink kept people from recognizing the issues with the launch. Everything that went wrong was predicted up front, but those making the predictions were pressured in to retracting them, and going along with everyone else's thinking on the matter instead. The guy who predicted it all ended up killing himself over the guilt of it.
I'm NOT comparing that to the iPhone. I'm just answering your question of what is wrong with groupthink.
There's not enough lime and bold to express how true this is. Stylus navigation is a miserable way to navigate. I've trained myself to use my HTC Touch without a stylus, and that's probably one of the reasons why the phone irritates me.
a thousand times no.
The HTC Touch Pro does it right. The interface is designed to be used by fingers, but there is still a stylus present for text selection and other times when a more specific touch is needed.
Phones need to be designed for fingers, but don't throw out the stylus entirely. Having an option for precision is not a bad thing.
As of right now, yes it is. Again, you have the whole idea of "choice makes everything better" in your head, instead of the reality of "choice gives you a neutered version of both options". In my opinion, having to use the stylus to click a link means that the web browsing is awful. If you want to keep that relic of ages past around, give us the option to not use it EVER if we don't want to. There are plenty of reasons why I could want a stylus, but most of those times I prefer to use a pen without the ball-point out, as it's much more comfortable to hold and write with. If they can make the stylus something that can be used comfortably, it would be a good idea. As for right now, I still prefer scroll-wheels as a means of jumping between selectable items over stylus use.
There should always be multiple ways of completing each task (I forget what the UI sweet spot is, 3?), so forcing users to zoom in to make things large enough to distinguish what link you are clicking is only 1 way. So it needs 2 more. Perhaps a Blackberry style mouse pointer (first thing that popped into my head since I have an 8350) that you can drag onto the link for finger+precision, and a stylus could be the other 2.
that's how I feel.
You also have to rememebr that fingers aren't standardized. If you make something that can be used by ANY size fingers, then folks with small fingers will complain about wasted screen space. If you try to find a compromise, then you end up making it difficult to use for people with larger fingers.
You can standardize the size of the tip of your stylus.
And as for not liking the SIZE of a stylus, then buy a bigger one. No one says you have to use one that slides in to the side of a system, you can just as easily buy one of the retractable stylus/pens out there, and just carry it in your pocket.