Using a stylus is unacceptable. It speaks of lazy design. The iPhone was engineered to detect taps in such a way that they would always be as accurate as possible. A tap from a finger of any size always translates neatly to a single coordinate point that is used to register a touch. It's really quite amazing. You see the numbers for navigating through pages in this thread? I can click on those quite well on the iPhone and quite accurately despite the fact that they look tiny on the screen.
i understand where you come from now Evander, you're from the camp that believes more choices and features automatically makes things better. But do you really want to waste time making choices? Or do you just want shit to work with no hassle?
See, you mention that it's designed for fat fingers. I have skinny fingers and it is not that good. If I'm browsing in landscape at default zoom and want to select the middle link of 3 at normally spaced lines of text (like the page numbers of a thread or three links in a row) it will more often than not require 2 or more attempts as it picks a different one from the one I meant to choose. Inevitably I go back, zoom in so the link is as large as my finger, and then select it.
Perhaps I need to learn where it's trying to register my touch accurately, but that flies in the face of all good UI. Users should not have to learn the system, the system should learn the user.
There's plenty of good about the UI, the icons are a good size for finger navigation and all, but there are definitely times where a stylus would be a good idea. I am not saying they should automatically design for one, but it would be acceptable to allow or accept that your users may prefer to use one. I think I've even seen styli that are supposed to work on the touch screen. Now if they had an option to format the screen for the smaller display and enlarged links to be finger sized, that would be a good option to have.
i understand where you come from now Evander, you're from the camp that believes more choices and features automatically makes things better. But do you really want to waste time making choices? Or do you just want shit to work with no hassle?
What works without hassle?
This thread (and many others) are FULL of comments about having to try a couple times to get things right on the iPhone. The fact is, without tactile feedback, a finger just can't be as accurate as you're pretending; our biology isn't designed for it.
If I have options, then I can set things up in a way that I will never have a hassle again. You MAY claim that setting things up is a hassle, but I'd argue that learning things in the first place is a hassle, and if you want to insist that apple products are 100% intuitive, and no one needs to learn anything, then I have something to show you.
Obs: "Using a stylus is unacceptable. It speaks of lazy design."
I'd say this is about as objectively stupid as this kind of statement can get.
Evander: I think the issue perhaps, is that there are at least two different schools of thought here. Both are idealistic in some ways, pragmatic in others, both have advantages and disadvantages, and neither is incorrect.
It comes down, again, to functionality versus form. Apple leans heavily towards form, I find WinMo devices go for functionality. Most phones often have neither. In general, I hate the cell phone market, and I don't think that will change anytime soon. Even as a designer though, I prefer WM devices because of how much they can do, albeit, not well sometimes, but the option is there, and other people will program apps to make up for the lack in features or usability.
There needs to be a device that walks that fine line, offering more than one way of doing things, while still being dead simple. It must be feature rich and usable. I haven't found this device yet, but I hope someone makes it.
Obs: "Using a stylus is unacceptable. It speaks of lazy design."
I'd say this is about as objectively stupid as this kind of statement can get.
Evander: I think the issue perhaps, is that there are at least two different schools of thought here. Both are idealistic in some ways, pragmatic in others, both have advantages and disadvantages, and neither is incorrect.
Jake, I'd argue that there is nothing pragmatic about the other "school of thought"
Saying that choice inherently compromises quality is simply an illogical statement. There are examples where it has, and examples where it hasn't.
Pragmatism lies in seeing what works, not insisting that nothing will.
Firstly, I didn't say that 'choice* inherently compromises quality.' I don't know if you just misread why I quoted Obs, but if not then you seem determined to find an argument where there is none.
Secondly, here is an example of pragmatism vs idealism from my 'school of thought'.
The ideal input method for a given task on certain phones might be any combination of the following;
joystick, roller ball, keypad, stylus, touch pad, etc.
In a practical sense though, both user and developer only has a finite amount of time to learn and develop input methods. I'd prefer one standard input that's as polished as can be, rather than three or four input methods that a developer picks and chooses from arbitrarily, even if these inputs are more suited to individual tasks. In my opinion this is the biggest disadvantage the G1.
* Although this reminds me of an interesting video on ted
Jake, this forum has a proper quote function. If you don't use it, then it creates confusion when you are attempting to quote others.
Allowing more input methods for the hardware ONLY creates more time used in development of the hardware itself. A software developer can choose not to use any of them. My phone has multiple hardware buttons, a touch screen, a slide out keyboard, a touch ring (this is great for zooming), a stylus, and a tilt sensor. I have NEVER felt that a single program was gimped because of a need to be accessible to multiple control schemes. Many programs simply ignore some of the input methods, and that is fine. I'm not arguing that every program should use everything, I'm arguing that on a hardware level you can only benefit from having the OPTION there.
Evander on
0
Big DookieSmells great!Houston, TXRegistered Userregular
edited April 2009
Argh, I just wish we could get an official release date already. I want this thing NOW.
Argh, I just wish we could get an official release date already. I want this thing NOW.
I want a release date as well.
As it stands right now, my little brother is either goign to get a Pre or a Pro. I want to try playing with either one, so I'm looking forward to him getting it.
You know, this whole UI thing is really interesting and worth debating, and I realize that it is titled apple vs palm, but would anyone mind making another thread for it (perhaps in D&D) so that it gets more exposure?
I'm afraid more exposure would just leave reitterating everything we've already been over, boring away those of us who are actually discussing it now, and leaving only other people discussing it.
I know it isn't official, but mid-May to early June is almost definitely going to be it. It's Q2 of this year, and a Sprint rep told me they were ahead of schedule with a possible release date as early as the Third week in May. Also, it's probably going to launch at corporate Sprint stores and Best Buy for the first three months.
You see the numbers for navigating through pages in this thread? I can click on those quite well on the iPhone and quite accurately despite the fact that they look tiny on the screen.
Unless you have tiny girl hands or zoom the page in ridiculously this is a bold faced lie.
You see the numbers for navigating through pages in this thread? I can click on those quite well on the iPhone and quite accurately despite the fact that they look tiny on the screen.
Unless you have tiny girl hands or zoom the page in ridiculously this is a bold faced lie.
I zoom in the page until the text is readable, but after that I can tap anything relatively easily. Perhaps it's just as a result of practice.
What you have to understand about the iPhone is that it takes the average of the area you tapped and uses the central point of the tap as the place you tapped, it basically tries to figure out what you meant.
Therefore, unless you really suck at tapping, it isn't hard to accurately target, as long as the area is greater than or equal to 44 dots in size, which is pretty good.
So, not the type of thing that one could just sit down and get right away?
Varies from person to person.
The determining factor being intelligence.
Are you calling yourself dumb?
This is getting very petty...
Stylus input, in my opinion, is lazy design. I think this because it hasn't changed significantly in the last five years. We shouldn't be content with a status quot that isn't as easy to use as other options. I think the way Windows 7 is going, where everything is going to be hexagonal based in order to become more finger-friendly, is totally the way to go. Most problems caused by lack of stylus can be easily remedied by a bit of interface redesign. For example, looking at a web page, make any link slightly larger with bubbled edges so that people can click it without problem. Use more round shapes rather than squares, as that's the shape of the human finger. These are not things that should be difficult to grasp, yet they still haven't came about. Why?
So, not the type of thing that one could just sit down and get right away?
Varies from person to person.
The determining factor being intelligence.
Are you calling yourself dumb?
This is getting very petty...
Stylus input, in my opinion, is lazy design. I think this because it hasn't changed significantly in the last five years. We shouldn't be content with a status quot that isn't as easy to use as other options. I think the way Windows 7 is going, where everything is going to be hexagonal based in order to become more finger-friendly, is totally the way to go. Most problems caused by lack of stylus can be easily remedied by a bit of interface redesign. For example, looking at a web page, make any link slightly larger with bubbled edges so that people can click it without problem. Use more round shapes rather than squares, as that's the shape of the human finger. These are not things that should be difficult to grasp, yet they still haven't came about. Why?
Because we want our phones to semlessly integrate with out other computing systems.
The internet isn't designed for fingers, it's designed for a mouse. A styllus is the touch screen analog of a mouse pointer, due to its precision.
I'm willing to recognize that not everyone likes stylii (and I support more finger integration) but you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that some of us DO like to use a stylus.
I know it isn't official, but mid-May to early June is almost definitely going to be it. It's Q2 of this year, and a Sprint rep told me they were ahead of schedule with a possible release date as early as the Third week in May. Also, it's probably going to launch at corporate Sprint stores and Best Buy for the first three months.
Seems pretty close. At the last conference they still wouldn't let anyone USE the phone, and kept mentioning it wasn't production. How long does it take to go from final hardware and code to production?
So, not the type of thing that one could just sit down and get right away?
Varies from person to person.
The determining factor being intelligence.
Are you calling yourself dumb?
This is getting very petty...
Stylus input, in my opinion, is lazy design. I think this because it hasn't changed significantly in the last five years. We shouldn't be content with a status quot that isn't as easy to use as other options. I think the way Windows 7 is going, where everything is going to be hexagonal based in order to become more finger-friendly, is totally the way to go. Most problems caused by lack of stylus can be easily remedied by a bit of interface redesign. For example, looking at a web page, make any link slightly larger with bubbled edges so that people can click it without problem. Use more round shapes rather than squares, as that's the shape of the human finger. These are not things that should be difficult to grasp, yet they still haven't came about. Why?
Because we want our phones to semlessly integrate with out other computing systems.
The internet isn't designed for fingers, it's designed for a mouse. A styllus is the touch screen analog of a mouse pointer, due to its precision.
I'm willing to recognize that not everyone likes stylii (and I support more finger integration) but you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that some of us DO like to use a stylus.
That's part of it. I've yet to find a stylus that will feel comfortable in my hand. Even the larger ones make me feel ridiculous when I'm using them on a small screen. The other part of it is that I don't think most phones should NEED one. There should be the option to use everything on the phone without one, yet, the most basic function that all smartphone users do, internet browsing, seems to require it on almost every phone.
*Edit* while longtime Treo users like yourself may be adapted to the the stylus, most people HATE them. Like, 95% of people.
What I really like about fingers over stylii? The fact that if I've lost my goddamn finger something has gone very fucking wrong. Whereas losing a stylus is about as easy as breathing.
So, not the type of thing that one could just sit down and get right away?
Varies from person to person.
The determining factor being intelligence.
Damn, I can't believe I forgot to comment on this. Dude, why are you being a douchebag and killing your argument? You keep coming up with pretty good claims and yet you let them die by pulling out ridiculous bullshit instead of backing things up with logical grounds. Yes, you do get used to using the iphone and even become able to click on links. You can also do the same thing with a lot of Windows Mobile phones-- I've done it with my HTC Touch, and from the few minutes I've spent with my Diamond, it's even easier.
But really, practicing can make you used to something, but there's still a limit based on the device's design.
So, not the type of thing that one could just sit down and get right away?
Varies from person to person.
The determining factor being intelligence.
Damn, I can't believe I forgot to comment on this. Dude, why are you being a douchebag and killing your argument? You keep coming up with pretty good claims and yet you let them die by pulling out ridiculous bullshit instead of backing things up with logical grounds. Yes, you do get used to using the iphone and even become able to click on links. You can also do the same thing with a lot of Windows Mobile phones-- I've done it with my HTC Touch, and from the few minutes I've spent with my Diamond, it's even easier.
But really, practicing can make you used to something, but there's still a limit based on the device's design.
Yeah, the only time I even both taking out the stylus when using my axim (which I've gone back to for my handheld internet needs because of apple's stupid lack of word wrap) is when I need to type anything more than a sentence or two. And never mind the perfect accuracy that you get from a stylus, fingernails are infinitely more accurate to select and click things than the flat part of your finger
For the record I can totally see the value of picking a finger-touch interface or stylus but not both. If you're designing programs from the point of view of a stylus, then a finger obviously isn't going to have a small enough tip to make selecting things easy. And if you're designing things from the point of view of a finger, then the extra precision of a stylus shouldn't be a requirement --so why include one more thing to lose.
Though I think either way, phones should move to capacative touch interfaces (magnetic tipped stylus') whether they're intended to be used by the stylus or not. Capacative screens are so much nicer than old-school touch screens.
Personally I just think it's a shame that we don't have pointier fingers, so as to get the best of both worlds. Thanks a lot, god.
(everyone knows god is a hardcore CLI user anyways.)
And never mind the perfect accuracy that you get from a stylus, fingernails are infinitely more accurate to select and click things than the flat part of your finger
Some of us never have fingernails that long. I almost never use my stylus any more on my Mogul, it has a wonderful touch screen with a DPad right next to it and a keyboard I can drop down if i need text, making web navigation easy as pie. The thing that pisses me off is that the screen bezel comes up a good Lincoln's beard from the screen, making dust collect around the edges and things in corners (of which there are many in WinMo) difficult to hit. HTC took note of this and made their next devices all have flat as shit touch screens.
So, not the type of thing that one could just sit down and get right away?
Varies from person to person.
The determining factor being intelligence.
Are you calling yourself dumb?
This is getting very petty...
Stylus input, in my opinion, is lazy design. I think this because it hasn't changed significantly in the last five years. We shouldn't be content with a status quot that isn't as easy to use as other options. I think the way Windows 7 is going, where everything is going to be hexagonal based in order to become more finger-friendly, is totally the way to go. Most problems caused by lack of stylus can be easily remedied by a bit of interface redesign. For example, looking at a web page, make any link slightly larger with bubbled edges so that people can click it without problem. Use more round shapes rather than squares, as that's the shape of the human finger. These are not things that should be difficult to grasp, yet they still haven't came about. Why?
Because we want our phones to semlessly integrate with out other computing systems.
The internet isn't designed for fingers, it's designed for a mouse. A styllus is the touch screen analog of a mouse pointer, due to its precision.
I'm willing to recognize that not everyone likes stylii (and I support more finger integration) but you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that some of us DO like to use a stylus.
That's part of it. I've yet to find a stylus that will feel comfortable in my hand. Even the larger ones make me feel ridiculous when I'm using them on a small screen. The other part of it is that I don't think most phones should NEED one. There should be the option to use everything on the phone without one, yet, the most basic function that all smartphone users do, internet browsing, seems to require it on almost every phone.
*Edit* while longtime Treo users like yourself may be adapted to the the stylus, most people HATE them. Like, 95% of people.
Well, if you have numbers, I'm sure you have a study to show me. It couldn't be that you are just making the assumption that most people agree with what you like...
Seriously, though, I can't think of anything that I NEED a stylus to do with my phone (HTC Touch Pro) I've learned how to do everything on it with my fingers. Sometimes it is just quicker to use a stylus.
And even on my Treo 700wx, I could do everything using just hardware buttons. I know this because my touchscreen broke at one point, and it took me almost a month to get it fixed (arguing about warranty.)
The fact that a phone has a stylus option doesn't mean that all software for it will automatically require a stylus. Anyone who says that (Obs) is arguing from knee-jerk bullshit, rather than anything empirical.
For the record I can totally see the value of picking a finger-touch interface or stylus but not both. If you're designing programs from the point of view of a stylus, then a finger obviously isn't going to have a small enough tip to make selecting things easy. And if you're designing things from the point of view of a finger, then the extra precision of a stylus shouldn't be a requirement --so why include one more thing to lose.
Because you end up with a more well rounded system. Just because the UI uses fingers doesn't mean that third parties won't want to make software that uses a stylus, or vice versa.
So, not the type of thing that one could just sit down and get right away?
Varies from person to person.
The determining factor being intelligence.
Damn, I can't believe I forgot to comment on this. Dude, why are you being a douchebag and killing your argument? You keep coming up with pretty good claims and yet you let them die by pulling out ridiculous bullshit instead of backing things up with logical grounds.
Because if we argued everything on logical grounds alone the forums would be nothing but dry, dispassionate arguments, that no one would want to read.
Because if we argued everything on logical grounds alone the forums would be nothing but dry, dispassionate arguments, that no one would want to read.
It's OK guys. He's trolling so that we can have interesting conversations that our mothers want to read.
I'd prefer those mythical conversations ground in logic and facts. Ah, those would be grand times. I've got to say, I've seen them before in D&D and they are grand things.
Cronus on
"Read twice, post once. It's almost like 'measure twice, cut once' only with reading." - MetaverseNomad
For the record I can totally see the value of picking a finger-touch interface or stylus but not both. If you're designing programs from the point of view of a stylus, then a finger obviously isn't going to have a small enough tip to make selecting things easy. And if you're designing things from the point of view of a finger, then the extra precision of a stylus shouldn't be a requirement --so why include one more thing to lose.
Because you end up with a more well rounded system. Just because the UI uses fingers doesn't mean that third parties won't want to make software that uses a stylus, or vice versa.
Is a laptop more well rounded if it comes with a trackpad, trackball, and nubbin?
I know it's easy to read Obs' argument and instinctively run in the opposite direction, but honestly, I would rather have a phone designed from the ground up to use a finger OR a stylus, so that I'm not switching an app to discover that it's time to pull out the stylus again, then switching to another and finding, oh hey, I can put that annoying piece of crap away... only to have to pull it out again a minute later.
It's a tough sell to say that you lose out by adding a keyboard to a touch-interface phone, but I think it's completely reasonable to say that the 'touch' part of the UI should be based on finger or stylus but not both.
That's part of it. I've yet to find a stylus that will feel comfortable in my hand. Even the larger ones make me feel ridiculous when I'm using them on a small screen. The other part of it is that I don't think most phones should NEED one. There should be the option to use everything on the phone without one, yet, the most basic function that all smartphone users do, internet browsing, seems to require it on almost every phone.
*Edit* while longtime Treo users like yourself may be adapted to the the stylus, most people HATE them. Like, 95% of people.
Well, if you have numbers, I'm sure you have a study to show me. It couldn't be that you are just making the assumption that most people agree with what you like...
No, I'm not making the assumption, but this isn't even something that you can empirically research, so tell me again why I should have statistics? I sell phones. People ask for phones that don't need styluses. People want their phones to be convenient and quick, and a stylus is neither of these.
Seriously, though, I can't think of anything that I NEED a stylus to do with my phone (HTC Touch Pro) I've learned how to do everything on it with my fingers. Sometimes it is just quicker to use a stylus.
And even on my Treo 700wx, I could do everything using just hardware buttons. I know this because my touchscreen broke at one point, and it took me almost a month to get it fixed (arguing about warranty.)
The fact that a phone has a stylus option doesn't mean that all software for it will automatically require a stylus. Anyone who says that (Obs) is arguing from knee-jerk bullshit, rather than anything empirical.
It's not about software requiring a stylus, it's about the actual UI itself. WM6.1 is NOT finger-friendly. The HTC custom skin? Sort of, but it's the exception. Even the Touchwiz style WM is lame for fingers. Whether the apps work isn't always the issue man, sometimes it's getting to them that's half of the battle.
The fact that I sell video games doesn't mean that I have the authority to speak on the behalf of all gamers out there on what they want. The fact that you seel cell phones doesn't mean that your clientelle is 100% proportionally representative of the overall market as a whole.
Posts
i understand where you come from now Evander, you're from the camp that believes more choices and features automatically makes things better. But do you really want to waste time making choices? Or do you just want shit to work with no hassle?
Stupidity is highly subjective.
Perhaps I need to learn where it's trying to register my touch accurately, but that flies in the face of all good UI. Users should not have to learn the system, the system should learn the user.
There's plenty of good about the UI, the icons are a good size for finger navigation and all, but there are definitely times where a stylus would be a good idea. I am not saying they should automatically design for one, but it would be acceptable to allow or accept that your users may prefer to use one. I think I've even seen styli that are supposed to work on the touch screen. Now if they had an option to format the screen for the smaller display and enlarged links to be finger sized, that would be a good option to have.
What works without hassle?
This thread (and many others) are FULL of comments about having to try a couple times to get things right on the iPhone. The fact is, without tactile feedback, a finger just can't be as accurate as you're pretending; our biology isn't designed for it.
If I have options, then I can set things up in a way that I will never have a hassle again. You MAY claim that setting things up is a hassle, but I'd argue that learning things in the first place is a hassle, and if you want to insist that apple products are 100% intuitive, and no one needs to learn anything, then I have something to show you.
I'd say this is about as objectively stupid as this kind of statement can get.
Evander: I think the issue perhaps, is that there are at least two different schools of thought here. Both are idealistic in some ways, pragmatic in others, both have advantages and disadvantages, and neither is incorrect.
There needs to be a device that walks that fine line, offering more than one way of doing things, while still being dead simple. It must be feature rich and usable. I haven't found this device yet, but I hope someone makes it.
Jake, I'd argue that there is nothing pragmatic about the other "school of thought"
Saying that choice inherently compromises quality is simply an illogical statement. There are examples where it has, and examples where it hasn't.
Pragmatism lies in seeing what works, not insisting that nothing will.
Secondly, here is an example of pragmatism vs idealism from my 'school of thought'.
The ideal input method for a given task on certain phones might be any combination of the following;
joystick, roller ball, keypad, stylus, touch pad, etc.
In a practical sense though, both user and developer only has a finite amount of time to learn and develop input methods. I'd prefer one standard input that's as polished as can be, rather than three or four input methods that a developer picks and chooses from arbitrarily, even if these inputs are more suited to individual tasks. In my opinion this is the biggest disadvantage the G1.
* Although this reminds me of an interesting video on ted
Are you just LARPing your Brave New World character?
Allowing more input methods for the hardware ONLY creates more time used in development of the hardware itself. A software developer can choose not to use any of them. My phone has multiple hardware buttons, a touch screen, a slide out keyboard, a touch ring (this is great for zooming), a stylus, and a tilt sensor. I have NEVER felt that a single program was gimped because of a need to be accessible to multiple control schemes. Many programs simply ignore some of the input methods, and that is fine. I'm not arguing that every program should use everything, I'm arguing that on a hardware level you can only benefit from having the OPTION there.
Oculus: TheBigDookie | XBL: Dook | NNID: BigDookie
I want a release date as well.
As it stands right now, my little brother is either goign to get a Pre or a Pro. I want to try playing with either one, so I'm looking forward to him getting it.
Have you ever done any software development? Because that statement leads me to believe you haven't.
Unless you have tiny girl hands or zoom the page in ridiculously this is a bold faced lie.
Satans..... hints.....
I zoom in the page until the text is readable, but after that I can tap anything relatively easily. Perhaps it's just as a result of practice.
What you have to understand about the iPhone is that it takes the average of the area you tapped and uses the central point of the tap as the place you tapped, it basically tries to figure out what you meant.
Therefore, unless you really suck at tapping, it isn't hard to accurately target, as long as the area is greater than or equal to 44 dots in size, which is pretty good.
Are you telling me that having hardward options that you aren;t programmin for somehow STILL take up development time?
So, not the type of thing that one could just sit down and get right away?
Varies from person to person.
The determining factor being intelligence.
Are you calling yourself dumb?
This is getting very petty...
Stylus input, in my opinion, is lazy design. I think this because it hasn't changed significantly in the last five years. We shouldn't be content with a status quot that isn't as easy to use as other options. I think the way Windows 7 is going, where everything is going to be hexagonal based in order to become more finger-friendly, is totally the way to go. Most problems caused by lack of stylus can be easily remedied by a bit of interface redesign. For example, looking at a web page, make any link slightly larger with bubbled edges so that people can click it without problem. Use more round shapes rather than squares, as that's the shape of the human finger. These are not things that should be difficult to grasp, yet they still haven't came about. Why?
Because we want our phones to semlessly integrate with out other computing systems.
The internet isn't designed for fingers, it's designed for a mouse. A styllus is the touch screen analog of a mouse pointer, due to its precision.
I'm willing to recognize that not everyone likes stylii (and I support more finger integration) but you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that some of us DO like to use a stylus.
Seems pretty close. At the last conference they still wouldn't let anyone USE the phone, and kept mentioning it wasn't production. How long does it take to go from final hardware and code to production?
That's part of it. I've yet to find a stylus that will feel comfortable in my hand. Even the larger ones make me feel ridiculous when I'm using them on a small screen. The other part of it is that I don't think most phones should NEED one. There should be the option to use everything on the phone without one, yet, the most basic function that all smartphone users do, internet browsing, seems to require it on almost every phone.
*Edit* while longtime Treo users like yourself may be adapted to the the stylus, most people HATE them. Like, 95% of people.
Damn, I can't believe I forgot to comment on this. Dude, why are you being a douchebag and killing your argument? You keep coming up with pretty good claims and yet you let them die by pulling out ridiculous bullshit instead of backing things up with logical grounds. Yes, you do get used to using the iphone and even become able to click on links. You can also do the same thing with a lot of Windows Mobile phones-- I've done it with my HTC Touch, and from the few minutes I've spent with my Diamond, it's even easier.
But really, practicing can make you used to something, but there's still a limit based on the device's design.
Though I think either way, phones should move to capacative touch interfaces (magnetic tipped stylus') whether they're intended to be used by the stylus or not. Capacative screens are so much nicer than old-school touch screens.
Personally I just think it's a shame that we don't have pointier fingers, so as to get the best of both worlds. Thanks a lot, god.
(everyone knows god is a hardcore CLI user anyways.)
Well, if you have numbers, I'm sure you have a study to show me. It couldn't be that you are just making the assumption that most people agree with what you like...
Seriously, though, I can't think of anything that I NEED a stylus to do with my phone (HTC Touch Pro) I've learned how to do everything on it with my fingers. Sometimes it is just quicker to use a stylus.
And even on my Treo 700wx, I could do everything using just hardware buttons. I know this because my touchscreen broke at one point, and it took me almost a month to get it fixed (arguing about warranty.)
The fact that a phone has a stylus option doesn't mean that all software for it will automatically require a stylus. Anyone who says that (Obs) is arguing from knee-jerk bullshit, rather than anything empirical.
Because you end up with a more well rounded system. Just because the UI uses fingers doesn't mean that third parties won't want to make software that uses a stylus, or vice versa.
Because if we argued everything on logical grounds alone the forums would be nothing but dry, dispassionate arguments, that no one would want to read.
I'd prefer those mythical conversations ground in logic and facts. Ah, those would be grand times. I've got to say, I've seen them before in D&D and they are grand things.
"Read twice, post once. It's almost like 'measure twice, cut once' only with reading." - MetaverseNomad
Is a laptop more well rounded if it comes with a trackpad, trackball, and nubbin?
I know it's easy to read Obs' argument and instinctively run in the opposite direction, but honestly, I would rather have a phone designed from the ground up to use a finger OR a stylus, so that I'm not switching an app to discover that it's time to pull out the stylus again, then switching to another and finding, oh hey, I can put that annoying piece of crap away... only to have to pull it out again a minute later.
It's a tough sell to say that you lose out by adding a keyboard to a touch-interface phone, but I think it's completely reasonable to say that the 'touch' part of the UI should be based on finger or stylus but not both.
No, I'm not making the assumption, but this isn't even something that you can empirically research, so tell me again why I should have statistics? I sell phones. People ask for phones that don't need styluses. People want their phones to be convenient and quick, and a stylus is neither of these.
It's not about software requiring a stylus, it's about the actual UI itself. WM6.1 is NOT finger-friendly. The HTC custom skin? Sort of, but it's the exception. Even the Touchwiz style WM is lame for fingers. Whether the apps work isn't always the issue man, sometimes it's getting to them that's half of the battle.
You're the one who started making up percentages.
The fact that I sell video games doesn't mean that I have the authority to speak on the behalf of all gamers out there on what they want. The fact that you seel cell phones doesn't mean that your clientelle is 100% proportionally representative of the overall market as a whole.