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The Palm Prē: Whatever the Touchstone touches stays touched

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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Azio wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    The big idfference is that the iPod came on to the scene when there was no real competition.
    There was plenty of competition, it's just that none of them were bright enough to market their respective products as "1,000 songs in your pocket" and were content to occupy shelf space at the back walls of computer stores with catchy taglines like "128MB Portable Digital Music Player".

    Competition may not have been the right word.

    "Serious Frontrunner" might have been better.

    Essentially, the PMP market was far more niche and new at the time, and it was anyone's game to just pick up. As you've already said, in so many words, they didn't have to justify why the iPod was the best mp3 player, just why an mp3 player was a good idea in and of itself.

    Evander on
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    OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Haven't had a chance to read through all of this, and it seems overly defensive, but here's a real argument from a biased Apple fan:

    http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/01/12/palm-pre-the-emperors-new-phone/

    OremLK on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    OremLK wrote: »
    Haven't had a chance to read through all of this, and it seems overly defensive, but here's a real argument from a biased Apple fan:

    http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/01/12/palm-pre-the-emperors-new-phone/

    ouch. I could barely make it in to that

    Evander on
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    ObsObs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    I disagree, owing to the fact that the function end, on phones, is a lot more important than the function end on PMPs.

    Except it really isn't.

    Simplicity is what makes the iPhone good. The more steps you add to a process, the more people you lose along the way. It's so easy to do anything on the iPhone, and the way it's designed makes it so there is very little that can go wrong. The phone is pretty much just fine the way it is.

    And plus, most people aren't incredible savvy about technology as we may be. There are people who basically only think of the iPhone when they hear 3G, because Apple has hijacked the term and drilled it into people through marketing.

    The iPhone won't be killed through technology alone.


    Also, the section in that article about multiple apps is kind of what I was getting to earlier but never developed so eloquently, because fuck, this is a forum not a blog.

    Obs on
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    Big DookieBig Dookie Smells great! Houston, TXRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Maybe I missed something, but when did anyone claim this was going to be an "iPhone Killer"? I don't think anyone with an ounce of intelligence is claiming that the Pre is going to be the death of the iPhone. What we are saying is that the Pre appears for now to be a phone that could provide a feature set that might rival the iPhone, which is something no other phone has truly been able to do so far. There's obviously too little information still to make any real predictions, but what we've seen is certainly promising.

    Even if the Pre is wildly successful, even that will have little effect on the iPhone's success. I think there's plenty of room in the market for both of them, and others.

    Big Dookie on
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    ObsObs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    So basically this thread is about how the Palm Pre might not be a complete utter failure. I can agree with that.

    Obs on
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    Doc HollidayDoc Holliday Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I'm a big UI nerd (indeed I do it for a living, and I should be designing instead of posting on a forum right now), and a big Apple nerd, and I love this Palm Pre. It hits the iPhone at its weakest points: physical keyboard, running multiple apps, connecting to social web application for contact data, even little things like (Obs is going to love this) customizing your desktop background.

    I'm sure, like the iPhone, it won't be for everybody, but there are people with valid complaints about the iPhone, and that's the market Palm went for. Good for them, and good for their designers. It's hard to stand out in an Apple-dominated field, especially when everyone's 98% focused on UI these days.

    edit:
    Obs wrote: »
    So basically this thread is about how the Palm Pre might not be a complete utter failure. I can agree with that.

    By this argument, if it's not #1, then it's just "not a complete utter failure", right?

    Do Apple computers fall under this category, seeing as though they have < 10% market share?

    Doc Holliday on
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    Big DookieBig Dookie Smells great! Houston, TXRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I wouldn't say it's just about it not being a failure, more that it could be the first real iPhone-like device to truly offer it some competition. Of course, they'll still be on completely different carriers, so that's probably a moot point.

    Big Dookie on
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    EgoEgo Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Obs wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    I disagree, owing to the fact that the function end, on phones, is a lot more important than the function end on PMPs.

    Except it really isn't

    I just want to point out that I own an iphone and have several friends with 'em, and we all complain about the silly limitations of the phone (no copy paste, no video, no pictures in SMS, no proper SMS management, software crashes --esp safari, no file manager --to replace the space that the iphone likes to randomly eat, and more.) There are a lot of ways it could be improved.

    The iphone is so far from perfect that anyone who thinks there's no room for competition is deluding themselves. The iphone is a nice phone to use, and does neat things, but for a smart-phone it also packs in an awful lot of stupid.

    Go palm. More competition means a better iphone 2.0.

    Ego on
    Erik
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    iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Ego wrote: »
    Go palm. More competition means a better iphone 2.0.
    This. I love my iPhone, but competition is great and it will only end up making things better.

    iTunesIsEvil on
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    tofutofu Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    If it was on Verizon I'd be interested.

    tofu on
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    victor_c26victor_c26 Chicago, ILRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    A co-worker of mine was happy when I told him about the Prē.

    He's on Sprint, and wanted a smartphone that was like either the iPhone or the G1.

    It's like Palm heard his request, heh.

    victor_c26 on
    It's been so long since I've posted here, I've removed my signature since most of what I had here were broken links. Shows over, you can carry on to the next post.
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    tofu wrote: »
    If it was on Verizon I'd be interested.

    Verizon and Sprint use the same towers

    so if you pay more for an unlocked one, I don't see why it wouldn't work

    Evander on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    victor_c26 wrote: »
    A co-worker of mine was happy when I told him about the Prē.

    He's on Sprint, and wanted a smartphone that was like either the iPhone or the G1.

    It's like Palm heard his request, heh.

    tell him to look at the HTC Touch Pro.

    Evander on
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    AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    OremLK wrote: »
    Because of marketing, and because of form over function.

    Man, I hate this meme so bad.

    For consumer electronics form is a part of function. For something that I need to carry in my pocket every single day, in every single outfit I happen to wear, you had better believe that marginal considerations over width and weight are important. And nobody ever jumped down someone's throat for getting a hair cut, or buying shirts that fit right— just because it has a battery, aesthetic considerations are now stupid?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that Palm is bringing some great things to the table. I just hate this attitude that gets tossed around, at Mac users especially, that people are marketing saps or whatever for paying money for things that look nice.

    Adrien on
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    GrimReaperGrimReaper Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Curiously enough I asked Stephen Fry to do a review of this when he gets back to the UK. He rather nicely replied that he would.

    I distrust a lot of websites because there's always the profit motive behind it, once the great and glorious gets his hands on it then we shall see.

    GrimReaper on
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    NatheoNatheo Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Obs wrote: »
    So basically this thread is about how the Palm Pre might not be a complete utter failure. I can agree with that.

    You are absolutely the worst fanboy in the entire world. Like, a total caricature of an apple fanboy. Seriously, thanks for this, I can go to bed happy.

    Natheo on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    bashbash Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Technologically I'm extremely skeptical of the Pre, Palm managed to snag some ex-Apple folks that brought with them a lot of swagger but not necessarily the chops to back it up. It might turn out to be a great device but in interviews Palm has been talking a lot of shit without having sold a single unit.

    The Pre does not really do "multitasking" in the desktop sense. All of their applications are essentially HTML/JS widgets like Dashboard Widgets or Sidebar Gadgets. Having multiple "apps" open on the Pre is like having multiple browser tabs open simultaneously. This is very different from running multiple full fledged native applications. While this makes for a very web 2.0 experience it also locks out a lot of functionality for people writing apps. This was a major complaint about the iPhone's 1.x software which didn't allow native third party apps and only web apps. I don't understand why people bashed the iPhone to hell and back but give Palm a free pass. Well I do, it's some sort of group-think Apple bashing. However many of the same arguments against Apple's web app plans need to be levied against Palm.

    Palm's bragging about their hardware capability is also a bit premature and misplaced. The ARM chip in the current iPhones is speedy but still underclocked for longevity. If the overall chip count can be reduced to allow more volume for the battery the CPU can pretty easily be clocked higher. The ARMv7 cores (Coretex-A8 used in the Pre) are backwards compatible (IIRC) which means the next iPhone revision could move to one of these instead of just clocking the current chip higher if Apple want to play the raw performance game. Palm's comparing their unreleased hardware with Apple's shipping hardware from last June. The same goes for other handheld manufacturers using ARM11 chips, they can always move to the same or similar chip that Palm's using without much trouble. Again Palm's comparing their as yet unreleased hardware to that of their competitors that are in the middle or end of their product cycles.

    To the form over function meme, it's more demagoguery. The iPhone is not popular simply because it looks nice. Behind the glossy finish is a lot of functionality that is thoughtfully exposed. The iPhone makes it easy for non-nerds to use every bit of its functionality. This is what makes the iPhone attractive to the masses. The iPhone commercials have been showing off features of the phone in realtime. They don't just show glamour shots and mockups. A dude holds up the phone, browses the internet, and gets a phone call. This is all stuff normal non-technical users can do out of the box without even reading a manual. Also as Adrien alluded to, phones are devices you carry with you all the damned time. They should not only be comfortable to hold in your hand but carry in your pocket and not weigh down a purse. It also helps when they don't look and feel like a cheap piece of shit (not saying the Pre looks like a piece of shit).

    bash on
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    StormwatcherStormwatcher Blegh BlughRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I don't know why people bother with Obs.
    I mean, the guy can't even write his own sig right (there should be no comma after "welcome").

    Stormwatcher on
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    ObsObs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    I don't know why people bother with Obs.
    I mean, the guy can't even write his own sig right (there should be no comma after "welcome").

    There has to be a pause after the Welcome, in order to prepare for the gravity of the rest of the sentence. "Welcome to Obs" get's read too quickly.





    Also guys, I'm not a huge fanboy, I'm just saying that if anyone is going to really compete hard to steal the spotlight from the iPhone, merely matching it is not enough. They have to be at least 4 times better and more revolutionary than the iPhone. Remember how shocked everyone was when the iPhone first came out? The next iPhone killer will have to do that again. Until then, all you have are imitators.

    Obs on
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    VistiVisti Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Colour me mildly interested. I'm in the market for a new handheld device that doesn't run WM6.1.

    Also just a little openness in the software would be awesome.

    Visti on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    DigDug2000DigDug2000 Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    bash wrote: »
    The Pre does not really do "multitasking" in the desktop sense. All of their applications are essentially HTML/JS widgets like Dashboard Widgets or Sidebar Gadgets. Having multiple "apps" open on the Pre is like having multiple browser tabs open simultaneously. This is very different from running multiple full fledged native applications. While this makes for a very web 2.0 experience it also locks out a lot of functionality for people writing apps. This was a major complaint about the iPhone's 1.x software which didn't allow native third party apps and only web apps. I don't understand why people bashed the iPhone to hell and back but give Palm a free pass. Well I do, it's some sort of group-think Apple bashing. However many of the same arguments against Apple's web app plans need to be levied against Palm.
    Exposing system level API's/data to protected javascript/html "apps" really isn't that hard. I think that's what Palm is doing here, but who knows. Thats what everyone was hoping Apple would do with the iPhone, but Apple just failed miserably at putting out a usable SDK (i.e. Mobile Safari didn't even have offline storage capabilities when the iPhone was released). No idea if Palm will pull it off either, but its not impossible, and the developer talk that I've seen so far makes it sounds like they're succeeding.

    Saying that its not multitasking because the apps are written in a scripting/xml language is absolutely retarded though.

    DigDug2000 on
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    stigweardstigweard Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Obs wrote: »
    Simplicity is what makes the iPhone good. The more steps you add to a process, the more people you lose along the way. It's so easy to do anything on the iPhone, and the way it's designed makes it so there is very little that can go wrong. The phone is pretty much just fine the way it is.

    Copy and paste. Oop, can't do that. How about setup an email on a non ssl imap service. What? You mean I had to call because I have to let it fail three times before it will accept the connection? Why can't I set it to default to the regular ports? Don't want to make it too hard for average users. And what a lovely keyboard it has, if you have little girly fingers. I've setup dozens of these phones for people because they couldn't figure out get their email working on it. In the last two years, I've only had to setup one blackberry for the same reason. The iphone is a consumer phone and status item. A few of the things it does, it does really well but it is severely lacking in other areas.

    stigweard on
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    ObsObs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    Visti wrote: »
    Also just a little openness in the software would be awesome.

    Is it really?

    Because I've heard reports malware has been written on the Android Platform, which is very open and free. Do you really want to have to worry about keeping an Anti-Virus up to date on your fucking phone (I don't even like doing that on my computers).

    Obs on
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    ObsObs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    stigweard wrote: »
    Obs wrote: »
    Simplicity is what makes the iPhone good. The more steps you add to a process, the more people you lose along the way. It's so easy to do anything on the iPhone, and the way it's designed makes it so there is very little that can go wrong. The phone is pretty much just fine the way it is.

    Copy and paste. Oop, can't do that. How about setup an email on a non ssl imap service. What? You mean I had to call because I have to let it fail three times before it will accept the connection? Why can't I set it to default to the regular ports? Don't want to make it too hard for average users. And what a lovely keyboard it has, if you have little girly fingers. I've setup dozens of these phones for people because they couldn't figure out get their email working on it. In the last two years, I've only had to setup one blackberry for the same reason. The iphone is a consumer phone and status item. A few of the things it does, it does really well but it is severely lacking in other areas.

    Don't worry man, there will be software updates. There will be new iPhones.

    just


    chill

    Obs on
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    NatheoNatheo Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Cause you have so much to lost in reflashing your phone. And open source software is always riddled with malware, isn't it? Like Linux?

    Seriously, the vast majority of malware can be avoided by just not being a dumbass. Of course you can't trust the crowd that downloads fake beer mugs and shaking titties onto their phones to have such judgment.

    Natheo on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Do you guys even know what a meme is? Saying that iStuff is "form over function" is not a meme. It might be cliched or untrue (this is debatable) or form might be more important than it implies, but it's not a meme.

    OremLK on
    My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
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    ObsObs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    Natheo wrote: »
    Cause you have so much to lost in reflashing your phone. And open source software is always riddled with malware, isn't it? Like Linux?

    Seriously, the vast majority of malware can be avoided by just not being a dumbass. Of course you can't trust the crowd that downloads fake beer mugs and shaking titties onto their phones to have such judgment.

    Flawed.



    aslo, there is a shaking titties app!?

    Obs on
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    NatheoNatheo Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Natheo on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Adrien wrote: »
    OremLK wrote: »
    Because of marketing, and because of form over function.

    Man, I hate this meme so bad.

    For consumer electronics form is a part of function. For something that I need to carry in my pocket every single day, in every single outfit I happen to wear, you had better believe that marginal considerations over width and weight are important. And nobody ever jumped down someone's throat for getting a hair cut, or buying shirts that fit right— just because it has a battery, aesthetic considerations are now stupid?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that Palm is bringing some great things to the table. I just hate this attitude that gets tossed around, at Mac users especially, that people are marketing saps or whatever for paying money for things that look nice.

    Chrome and glossy black is important to your lifestyle?

    Evander on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    stigweard wrote: »
    Obs wrote: »
    Simplicity is what makes the iPhone good. The more steps you add to a process, the more people you lose along the way. It's so easy to do anything on the iPhone, and the way it's designed makes it so there is very little that can go wrong. The phone is pretty much just fine the way it is.

    Copy and paste. Oop, can't do that. How about setup an email on a non ssl imap service. What? You mean I had to call because I have to let it fail three times before it will accept the connection? Why can't I set it to default to the regular ports? Don't want to make it too hard for average users. And what a lovely keyboard it has, if you have little girly fingers. I've setup dozens of these phones for people because they couldn't figure out get their email working on it. In the last two years, I've only had to setup one blackberry for the same reason. The iphone is a consumer phone and status item. A few of the things it does, it does really well but it is severely lacking in other areas.

    The iPhone is actually a feature-phone, not a smart-phone, but folks don't like to hear that.

    Evander on
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    ObsObs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    Define smart-phone.

    Obs on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    It's all a gray area. It has to do with the ways in which it can be used, not just its power.

    the only real significance is that the iPhone software is not as open as its competitors are, and there are certain advanced features that it are missing.

    I was downloading all manner of third party programs directly off of the internet for my Palm IIIe back in high school, and I've been downloading and setting my own ringtones for free for longer than I can remember at this point. My current phone has Windows mobile, which still allows me the same freedom with applications, and even has a built in mp3 trimmer program, whereby I can just toss an mp3 on to the phone, trim out the appropriate section right there, and set it as a ringtone on the fly.



    Everything on the iPhone is locked down and monetized. This is what separates it from other smartphones out there.

    Evander on
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    ArcSynArcSyn Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    eh, I would say the iPhone is a smart phone. It's just not as full-featured and complex as some of the smart phones available on the market.

    I define a smart phone as a phone that was designed to provide the end user with more functionality than the phone as a primary concern. ie: it was built with the capability to do tasks, other than make calls, as something that may use more than 50% of the device's usage time.

    I will also say that the smart phone arena, similar to the console arena, is not a race. You don't have to be number 1 to be successful or profitable. Symbian is the leading OS in the smart phone area and I couldn't tell you a single model of phone that uses it. If it makes a profit for the company, it's a success. Just the fact that Palm is redesigning their OS and practically starting from scratch is a good thing. It means we are progressing. Sure, the iPhone brought some nice things to the table, some that had been done before, but were not as heavily marketed, and some that were not. Now the industry is taking what it has been learning and is evolving.

    ArcSyn on
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    NatheoNatheo Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    lack of the ability to share data between apps is another indicator too. IE cut and paste.

    Natheo on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Natheo wrote: »
    lack of the ability to share data between apps is another indicator too. IE cut and paste.

    I still have trouble believing that's missing from the phone.

    It's such a simple thing; I'd rather believe that every single person who has ever used it just hasn't figured out how to do it.



    Is it possible to select text at all?

    Evander on
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    NatheoNatheo Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    See I had the same idea. It's like it'd be so nice to swipe your finger across some text and go from there. But no, it's gone. No sign of it.

    Natheo on
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    ObsObs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Natheo wrote: »
    lack of the ability to share data between apps is another indicator too. IE cut and paste.

    I still have trouble believing that's missing from the phone.

    It's such a simple thing; I'd rather believe that every single person who has ever used it just hasn't figured out how to do it.



    Is it possible to select text at all?

    Yes it is possible.

    Obs on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    ArcSyn wrote: »
    I define a smart phone as a phone that was designed to provide the end user with more functionality than the phone as a primary concern. ie: it was built with the capability to do tasks, other than make calls, as something that may use more than 50% of the device's usage time.

    I feel like you're creating a binary proposition there, where they is more of a spectrum. Regardless of where the iPhone is categorized, I really feel that there are more categories of phone. I wouldn't necessarily put the Helio Ocean, for instance, in the same category as a Treo.

    That's where feature phone's come in. They are the phones that do more than just a regular phone, but not quite enough to be a smart phone. Where the confusion lies is the original smart phones that were out there, were they to be released today, would likely have been feature phones. The realms have shifted over time.

    [/quote]I will also say that the smart phone arena, similar to the console arena, is not a race. You don't have to be number 1 to be successful or profitable. Symbian is the leading OS in the smart phone area and I couldn't tell you a single model of phone that uses it. If it makes a profit for the company, it's a success. Just the fact that Palm is redesigning their OS and practically starting from scratch is a good thing. It means we are progressing. Sure, the iPhone brought some nice things to the table, some that had been done before, but were not as heavily marketed, and some that were not. Now the industry is taking what it has been learning and is evolving.[/QUOTE]

    I don't think you can compare phones to consoles so easily. The business models are ALL KINDS of different (profits coming from software versus hardware, rate at which new models are released, the importance of compatibility, etc.) Just because a product turns a profit doesn't make it a success if a different product could have turned a higher profit. With video games, the console is the platform, and the individual titles are the products. With cellphones, the phones are the product themselves.

    Evander on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Obs wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Natheo wrote: »
    lack of the ability to share data between apps is another indicator too. IE cut and paste.

    I still have trouble believing that's missing from the phone.

    It's such a simple thing; I'd rather believe that every single person who has ever used it just hasn't figured out how to do it.



    Is it possible to select text at all?

    Yes it is possible.

    just out of curiosity, how accurate is it, really? (don't lie to me, I've heard the horror stories about the iPhone keyboard)



    I was entirely shocked when I first learned that the iPhone would have no stylus.

    Evander on
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