Is a laptop more well rounded if it comes with a trackpad, trackball, and nubbin?
A tablet, duh :P
Tablets are awesome. But the reason why a stylus works well for a tablet and the DS and not a phone is that you generally want to use a phone within seconds and not a minute. You are often done with the phone after a couple of minutes instead of a half hour. It really seems that it all comes down to the % of time you have to deal with getting the stylus to the time you are going to use it.
Cronus on
"Read twice, post once. It's almost like 'measure twice, cut once' only with reading." - MetaverseNomad
Evander, of course different input methods increase development time;
First off, OS development is software development.
Secondly, even when you have a mature OS, you'll still find instances where different input methods that should give analogous results behave slightly differently. If you have six different input methods, you'll have to do ast least some testing with each method.
Anyway, here you go. Should work with the Pre too. Now you have your choice.
The fact that I sell video games doesn't mean that I have the authority to speak on the behalf of all gamers out there on what they want. The fact that you seel cell phones doesn't mean that your clientelle is 100% proportionally representative of the overall market as a whole.
Right, it's completely dependent on the market. I get that. I also get that people don't want styluses. Look at this thread, look on the internet, ask people you know [that aren't long-time treo users], and they'll all tell you the same thing. I get why a stylus is awesome, and there are certain instances where I'll use one, such as if I actually had to edit in excel on my phone [ughhh], but I still think the UI ought to be finger friendly at the very least.
The fact that I sell video games doesn't mean that I have the authority to speak on the behalf of all gamers out there on what they want. The fact that you seel cell phones doesn't mean that your clientelle is 100% proportionally representative of the overall market as a whole.
Right, it's completely dependent on the market. I get that. I also get that people don't want styluses. Look at this thread, look on the internet, ask people you know [that aren't long-time treo users], and they'll all tell you the same thing. I get why a stylus is awesome, and there are certain instances where I'll use one, such as if I actually had to edit in excel on my phone [ughhh], but I still think the UI ought to be finger friendly at the very least.
but see, I agree about the UI. I don't think you ACTUALLY disagree with me, I think you've been tricked into somehow defending Obs.
My stance here is that the UI should be finger friendly, as should as many other tasks as possible. I am not saying that the phone should be designed to USE a stylus, I'm saying the phone should be designed to INCLUDE a stylus.
And Jake, I understand that there is some ammount of extra developement time involved, but that extra developement time results in a better, more well rounded product. As a consumer, I want a product that gives me options. If the developers are too lazy to put in the time, or the the management is too short sighted to allow them the time, then that's fine, that's just not the product that I want.
My stance here is that the UI should be finger friendly, as should as many other tasks as possible. I am not saying that the phone should be designed to USE a stylus, I'm saying the phone should be designed to INCLUDE a stylus.
And why can't a UI be designed to make users throw the stylus in the fucking garbage, where it should be?
A finger is not for pointing, a finger is for tapping. You look at what you want to tap, and then you tap it, a finger does not hover over the screen.
right
because dragging isn't a thing
Seriously man, what is up with these strawmen?
It's not difficult to use a UI with your finger if it's made for fingers.
That's only a strawman if you ignore the entire context. Fyre stated fingers obscure whatever they're touching. You specified a subset of that scenario and flipped the bird at his argument, but that's wrong because just the single-touch action does not account for all times that a finger is used and therefore obscures it's target.
The press-and-hold action is where using a finger fails most obviously. If you're trying to drag something or select something, you need to know whether you've got the right object in the right place, or if you've accurately selected what you wanted to.
And your trolling drives people away because you're being needlessly antagonistic, and only the people that take issue with your verbal diarrhea (us) bother to tell you you're wrong.
Edito:
Read that wiki and learn to stop using them.
Is a laptop more well rounded if it comes with a trackpad, trackball, and nubbin?
A tablet, duh :P
Tablets are awesome. But the reason why a stylus works well for a tablet and the DS and not a phone is that you generally want to use a phone within seconds and not a minute. You are often done with the phone after a couple of minutes instead of a half hour. It really seems that it all comes down to the % of time you have to deal with getting the stylus to the time you are going to use it.
See, for almost all quick functions except typing with the default keyboard, fingers work perfectly fine in WinMo, and this is the default WM6.0 I have on my 4 year old axim, not the fancy shmancy HTC shell. In fact, since you can use you fingernail instead of the pad of your fingers (and since I'm a nervous gnawer, you really don't need much fingernail), it's actually at least twice as accurate as the pad of your finger you'd have to use with capacitive touchscreens. Heck, even using your fingers, you can select text with a fair degree of accuracy, which is more than I can say for the ipod touch, where it takes less time just to type it out again then to spend half a minute to try to actually get the text cursor where you want it (and yes, that's with the magifying glass that pops up)
Is a laptop more well rounded if it comes with a trackpad, trackball, and nubbin?
A tablet, duh :P
Tablets are awesome. But the reason why a stylus works well for a tablet and the DS and not a phone is that you generally want to use a phone within seconds and not a minute. You are often done with the phone after a couple of minutes instead of a half hour. It really seems that it all comes down to the % of time you have to deal with getting the stylus to the time you are going to use it.
See, for almost all quick functions except typing with the default keyboard, fingers work perfectly fine in WinMo, and this is the default WM6.0 I have on my 4 year old axim, not the fancy shmancy HTC shell. In fact, since you can use you fingernail instead of the pad of your fingers (and since I'm a nervous gnawer, you really don't need much fingernail), it's actually at least twice as accurate as the pad of your finger you'd have to use with capacitive touchscreens. Heck, even using your fingers, you can select text with a fair degree of accuracy, which is more than I can say for the ipod touch, where it takes less time just to type it out again then to spend half a minute to try to actually get the text cursor where you want it (and yes, that's with the magnifying glass that pops up)
I don't think WM was every really designed for fingers on a touchscreen, was it? I mean, WM/PocketPC dates back to around 2000. The whole Windows CE OS came out around 1996. Around both those times, anything "touch" was stylus input anyway, wasn't it? Its no huge surprise that the default UI isn't designed for big fat fingers. I don't really fault the designers for that. I don't think they made the buttons the size they are because they're fuckwits with no idea what they're doing. Its just what comes with having an open platform that's 9 years old and has had to adjust to a huge variety/changes in devices.
Is a laptop more well rounded if it comes with a trackpad, trackball, and nubbin?
A tablet, duh :P
Tablets are awesome. But the reason why a stylus works well for a tablet and the DS and not a phone is that you generally want to use a phone within seconds and not a minute. You are often done with the phone after a couple of minutes instead of a half hour. It really seems that it all comes down to the % of time you have to deal with getting the stylus to the time you are going to use it.
See, for almost all quick functions except typing with the default keyboard, fingers work perfectly fine in WinMo, and this is the default WM6.0 I have on my 4 year old axim, not the fancy shmancy HTC shell. In fact, since you can use you fingernail instead of the pad of your fingers (and since I'm a nervous gnawer, you really don't need much fingernail), it's actually at least twice as accurate as the pad of your finger you'd have to use with capacitive touchscreens. Heck, even using your fingers, you can select text with a fair degree of accuracy, which is more than I can say for the ipod touch, where it takes less time just to type it out again then to spend half a minute to try to actually get the text cursor where you want it (and yes, that's with the magnifying glass that pops up)
I don't think WM was every really designed for fingers on a touchscreen, was it? I mean, WM/PocketPC dates back to around 2000. The whole Windows CE OS came out around 1996. Around both those times, anything "touch" was stylus input anyway, wasn't it? Its no huge surprise that the default UI isn't designed for big fat fingers. I don't really fault the designers for that. I don't think they made the buttons the size they are because they're fuckwits with no idea what they're doing. Its just what comes with having an open platform that's 9 years old and has had to adjust to a huge variety/changes in devices.
exactly.
And rather than rushing a finger UI to market, they are taking their time to build one that should hopefully be decent.
If your fingernails are short, don't you have to curl your finger inwards to use old style touchscreens with it? That's what i have to do when I work on them without a stylus, and then my knuckles are definitely doing some obscuring --since people seem to think this is a big issue.
If your fingernails are short, don't you have to curl your finger inwards to use old style touchscreens with it? That's what i have to do when I work on them without a stylus, and then my knuckles are definitely doing some obscuring --since people seem to think this is a big issue.
edit: in response to spoit.
No, I turn my hand around, with the palm facing away from the screen. It obscures the screen even less than using the flat part of you finger because of the relatively high angle of approach, and it approaches from the top, rather than the bottom, which helps a bit too.
If your fingernails are short, don't you have to curl your finger inwards to use old style touchscreens with it? That's what i have to do when I work on them without a stylus, and then my knuckles are definitely doing some obscuring --since people seem to think this is a big issue.
edit: in response to spoit.
No, I turn my hand around, with the palm facing away from the screen. It obscures the screen even less than using the flat part of you finger because of the relatively high angle of approach, and it approaches from the top, rather than the bottom, which helps a bit too.
that sounds really awkward and uncomfortable, to be honest.
If your fingernails are short, don't you have to curl your finger inwards to use old style touchscreens with it? That's what i have to do when I work on them without a stylus, and then my knuckles are definitely doing some obscuring --since people seem to think this is a big issue.
edit: in response to spoit.
No, I turn my hand around, with the palm facing away from the screen. It obscures the screen even less than using the flat part of you finger because of the relatively high angle of approach, and it approaches from the top, rather than the bottom, which helps a bit too.
that sounds really awkward and uncomfortable, to be honest.
If your fingernails are short, don't you have to curl your finger inwards to use old style touchscreens with it? That's what i have to do when I work on them without a stylus, and then my knuckles are definitely doing some obscuring --since people seem to think this is a big issue.
edit: in response to spoit.
No, I turn my hand around, with the palm facing away from the screen. It obscures the screen even less than using the flat part of you finger because of the relatively high angle of approach, and it approaches from the top, rather than the bottom, which helps a bit too.
that sounds really awkward and uncomfortable, to be honest.
If your fingernails are short, don't you have to curl your finger inwards to use old style touchscreens with it? That's what i have to do when I work on them without a stylus, and then my knuckles are definitely doing some obscuring --since people seem to think this is a big issue.
edit: in response to spoit.
No, I turn my hand around, with the palm facing away from the screen. It obscures the screen even less than using the flat part of you finger because of the relatively high angle of approach, and it approaches from the top, rather than the bottom, which helps a bit too.
that sounds really awkward and uncomfortable, to be honest.
Evander, I see what you're saying now and it makes sense. I just wish more applications in the default shell were finger-friendly, specifically internet usage. I do think a trackball is much more analogous to a mouse than a stylus and would be a much-welcomed option and all but replace the need to ever use a stylus. I don't want to switch to T-mobile, unfortunately.
Evander, I see what you're saying now and it makes sense. I just wish more applications in the default shell were finger-friendly, specifically internet usage. I do think a trackball is much more analogous to a mouse than a stylus and would be a much-welcomed option and all but replace the need to ever use a stylus. I don't want to switch to T-mobile, unfortunately.
I'm all for more finger friendly applications.
I prefer a stylus over a trackball anyday, though, because it's easier to fix a lost stylus (go get a new one) than it is to fix a gunked-up trackball. Additionally, there is something nice about being able to actually touch the screen, instead of moving a virtual pointer through virtual space.
Interestingly enough, resistive touch technology is far from dead.
A company called Stantum has prototyped a pretty sweet multi-touch resistive that is completely finger friendly, and is apparently quite the treat to use.
Capacitive touch screens are overrated. Other than multitouch, the only difference I noticed between the ipod and my 5 year old axim is that you can actually use a stylus with resistive touchscreens
Sliders are also real finicky on the iphone, sometimes they work perfectly, other times they;re impossible to even move in the first place, much less try to get accurately
Posts
I know this because of my learnings.
A tablet, duh :P
Tablets are awesome. But the reason why a stylus works well for a tablet and the DS and not a phone is that you generally want to use a phone within seconds and not a minute. You are often done with the phone after a couple of minutes instead of a half hour. It really seems that it all comes down to the % of time you have to deal with getting the stylus to the time you are going to use it.
"Read twice, post once. It's almost like 'measure twice, cut once' only with reading." - MetaverseNomad
First off, OS development is software development.
Secondly, even when you have a mature OS, you'll still find instances where different input methods that should give analogous results behave slightly differently. If you have six different input methods, you'll have to do ast least some testing with each method.
Anyway, here you go. Should work with the Pre too. Now you have your choice.
In fact, every extra step a person has to take to do something is just another opportunity for them to be turned off from your product.
Right, it's completely dependent on the market. I get that. I also get that people don't want styluses. Look at this thread, look on the internet, ask people you know [that aren't long-time treo users], and they'll all tell you the same thing. I get why a stylus is awesome, and there are certain instances where I'll use one, such as if I actually had to edit in excel on my phone [ughhh], but I still think the UI ought to be finger friendly at the very least.
but see, I agree about the UI. I don't think you ACTUALLY disagree with me, I think you've been tricked into somehow defending Obs.
My stance here is that the UI should be finger friendly, as should as many other tasks as possible. I am not saying that the phone should be designed to USE a stylus, I'm saying the phone should be designed to INCLUDE a stylus.
And Jake, I understand that there is some ammount of extra developement time involved, but that extra developement time results in a better, more well rounded product. As a consumer, I want a product that gives me options. If the developers are too lazy to put in the time, or the the management is too short sighted to allow them the time, then that's fine, that's just not the product that I want.
And why can't a UI be designed to make users throw the stylus in the fucking garbage, where it should be?
A finger is not for pointing, a finger is for tapping. You look at what you want to tap, and then you tap it, a finger does not hover over the screen.
right
because dragging isn't a thing
Seriously man, what is up with these strawmen?
It's not difficult to use a UI with your finger if it's made for fingers.
Seriously, You're not good at this whole trolling thing.
Maybe I could learn from a professional like you
That's only a strawman if you ignore the entire context. Fyre stated fingers obscure whatever they're touching. You specified a subset of that scenario and flipped the bird at his argument, but that's wrong because just the single-touch action does not account for all times that a finger is used and therefore obscures it's target.
The press-and-hold action is where using a finger fails most obviously. If you're trying to drag something or select something, you need to know whether you've got the right object in the right place, or if you've accurately selected what you wanted to.
And your trolling drives people away because you're being needlessly antagonistic, and only the people that take issue with your verbal diarrhea (us) bother to tell you you're wrong.
Edito:
Read that wiki and learn to stop using them.
There are somethings that just can't be taught.
If you really want to learn, go hunt down Pi
See, for almost all quick functions except typing with the default keyboard, fingers work perfectly fine in WinMo, and this is the default WM6.0 I have on my 4 year old axim, not the fancy shmancy HTC shell. In fact, since you can use you fingernail instead of the pad of your fingers (and since I'm a nervous gnawer, you really don't need much fingernail), it's actually at least twice as accurate as the pad of your finger you'd have to use with capacitive touchscreens. Heck, even using your fingers, you can select text with a fair degree of accuracy, which is more than I can say for the ipod touch, where it takes less time just to type it out again then to spend half a minute to try to actually get the text cursor where you want it (and yes, that's with the magifying glass that pops up)
exactly.
And rather than rushing a finger UI to market, they are taking their time to build one that should hopefully be decent.
edit: in response to spoit.
No, I turn my hand around, with the palm facing away from the screen. It obscures the screen even less than using the flat part of you finger because of the relatively high angle of approach, and it approaches from the top, rather than the bottom, which helps a bit too.
that sounds really awkward and uncomfortable, to be honest.
That's why capacitance screens were invented.
cite, please
iPhone, Apple Inc.
Depends on your definition of "invent".
I'm all for more finger friendly applications.
I prefer a stylus over a trackball anyday, though, because it's easier to fix a lost stylus (go get a new one) than it is to fix a gunked-up trackball. Additionally, there is something nice about being able to actually touch the screen, instead of moving a virtual pointer through virtual space.
A company called Stantum has prototyped a pretty sweet multi-touch resistive that is completely finger friendly, and is apparently quite the treat to use.
PSN:RevDrGalactus/NN:RevDrGalactus/Steam
I think the word you're looking for is "popularize."
Apple invents very few things and finally-does-the-right-way a lot of things.
PSN:RevDrGalactus/NN:RevDrGalactus/Steam
which means added cost
I thought we've been over this before, Obsy. More expensive doesn't mean better.
If you have special needs, you can usually expect to pay more to have them fulfilled.
I'm sure you know all about having special needs.
I'M A TWITTER SHITTER
There is a fantastic example of where a stylus would be superior.
Satans..... hints.....