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Video Game Sales Thread: December thread over, go use the new one

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    LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    elkatas wrote: »
    JCRooks wrote: »
    Just don't be surprised when myself, and others, who try to be a bit more objective, are more skeptical about something that comes from a company's press release verbatim. :)

    It is great to see that you have self-irony. I wonder why we never heard you comment on Microsoft PR-spins and criticizing them. I wonder why. To be blunt, you are one of the biggest Microsoft billboard around.

    Maybe because there are dozens of people who already do that? But when we get some nintendo statements all there is are posts of "it prints money" and general fanboy wankery?

    Leitner on
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    darleysam wrote: »
    Which was itself said (by me, if we're going back there) in response to Nintendo fanwankery.
    Wankery which was in response to the same assumptive attitude you reiterated in your post.

    I still haven't seen anything to prove that Wii software sales are unacceptable to third parties, which was what you implied.

    Okay, going immediately off that data, in the two Top 10s on page 3, we've got one third-party Wii game for December, and none for the year.

    darleysam on
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    RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I guess my problem and many other people's problems with that chart is that it's just one measurement devoid of context. How many games were released on each system? How many of those games were multiplatform releases? How many of those games made a profit and by how much?

    If you just look at that chart and draw the conclusion that 3rd party companies are selling better on the Wii, then our current reality makes no sense. If they're selling better on the Wii, then why are Microsoft and even Sony getting better 3rd party support than Nintendo? That's why you need to look at the big picture and not focus too much on any one piece of information.

    RainbowDespair on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    darleysam wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Which was itself said (by me, if we're going back there) in response to Nintendo fanwankery.
    Wankery which was in response to the same assumptive attitude you reiterated in your post.

    I still haven't seen anything to prove that Wii software sales are unacceptable to third parties, which was what you implied.

    Okay, going immediately off that data, in the two Top 10s on page 3, we've got one third-party Wii game for December, and none for the year.

    That might mean much if any of the third party titles had as much production values (I feel dirty saying that) as the 360 or PS3 third party games in the top ten for the year. Lower budget games can sell well but never chart. For example, the vast majority of the DS games despite DS third party sales being quite good. You can argue that they don't make them because they wouldn't sell as well as they would on the 360 or PS3, but that sounds like a chicken and egg problem.

    Couscous on
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    DeaconKnowledgeDeaconKnowledge Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    JCRooks wrote: »
    EDIT:
    @Deacon - And yes, I go back to "fanboy" quite often because that's frankly, what I see a lot here. Which is fine, because a lot of people have admitted their biases. Just don't be surprised when myself, and others, who try to be a bit more objective, are more skeptical about something that comes from a company's press release verbatim. :)


    Well friend, I try to be as objective as possible when i'm making my sales analysis , and even then I admit my bias must show; no one is completely objective). I'll tell you first hand Rooks, your bias shows even in your attempt to be objective.

    DeaconKnowledge on
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    JCRooksJCRooks Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Holy hell. It's fucking obvious they're going to choose charts that make them look better, but choosing to totally dismiss the chart as you guys seem to be doing is disingenuous, I think. Part of the reason people post the chart is because we don't have any other convenient sources for LTD or YTD Third-Party sales.

    Obviously it doesn't provide a complete comparison between Wii Third-Party and 360 sales but it has its' uses. Until we have more complete data at our hands, we work with what we have.

    Well, if you read what I said earlier, I'm not trying to say that the chart should be completely dismissed. But don't be surprised if people show skepticism, especially since it has Nintendo's own watermark on it. For example, it's interesting that choose to launch-align dates. That's one way to present numbers. Also, not all 3rd party games are created equal. What's the quality and cost of these games? How many publishers are involved? And as Scarab points out, there is an argument for combining the 360 and PS3 numbers in a way.

    I don't mean to completely poo-poo the graph completely, but neither do I think it's smart to think, "Oh, Nintendo's graph shows that 3rd party games are #1 on the Wii so it must be true!". If you just consider raw sales that are launch aligned, then sure. That's exactly what the graph shows. But as we all know, there's more to video game sales and success than merely that.

    tldr - Any time you see something that comes directly from a company press meeting or release, some skepticism is healthy. I do this all the time especially with MS press releases (I know my own company the best, perhaps, heh). That is merely all that I was trying to convey.

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    mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    darleysam wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Which was itself said (by me, if we're going back there) in response to Nintendo fanwankery.
    Wankery which was in response to the same assumptive attitude you reiterated in your post.

    I still haven't seen anything to prove that Wii software sales are unacceptable to third parties, which was what you implied.

    Okay, going immediately off that data, in the two Top 10s on page 3, we've got one third-party Wii game for December, and none for the year.

    You guys really have no sense of irony do you? You're all like "incomplete data olol" and then we go back to using only the top 10 to determine the general health of third-party sales on the Wii.

    Thank God there's no Microsoft fanwankery here, nope not at all.

    mynameisguido on
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Which was itself said (by me, if we're going back there) in response to Nintendo fanwankery.
    Wankery which was in response to the same assumptive attitude you reiterated in your post.

    I still haven't seen anything to prove that Wii software sales are unacceptable to third parties, which was what you implied.

    Okay, going immediately off that data, in the two Top 10s on page 3, we've got one third-party Wii game for December, and none for the year.

    That might mean much if any of the third party titles had as much production values (I feel dirty saying that) as the 360 or PS3 third party games in the top ten for the year. Lower budget games can sell well but never chart. For example, the vast majority of the DS games despite DS third party sales being quite good. You can argue that they don't make them because they wouldn't sell as well as they would on the 360 or PS3, but that sounds like a chicken and egg problem.

    But the argument is that they sell just as well. Those numbers in those charts disagree.

    darleysam on
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    PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Well another thing to factor in, what was the last WII third party game that had as much money poured into as a PS3/360 game? Money in regards to production and advertising.

    Preacher on
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    elkataselkatas Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    JCRooks wrote: »
    Well, if you read what I said earlier, I'm not trying to say that the chart should be completely dismissed. But don't be surprised if people show skepticism, especially since it has Nintendo's own watermark on it.

    But it has been verified to be correct from NPD's own information. Or are you doubting NPD's integrity. Hey, NPD is reality biased!

    elkatas on
    Hypnotically inclined.
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    darleysam wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Which was itself said (by me, if we're going back there) in response to Nintendo fanwankery.
    Wankery which was in response to the same assumptive attitude you reiterated in your post.

    I still haven't seen anything to prove that Wii software sales are unacceptable to third parties, which was what you implied.

    Okay, going immediately off that data, in the two Top 10s on page 3, we've got one third-party Wii game for December, and none for the year.

    You guys really have no sense of irony do you? You're all like "incomplete data olol" and then we go back to using only the top 10 to determine the general health of third-party sales on the Wii.

    Thank God there's no Microsoft fanwankery here, nope not at all.

    Again, on one side it's

    "The Wii sells just as many 3rd party games as the other consoles!"

    Then when the charts show that they don't, it's "hurf MS fanboy it doesn't HAVE to sell as much!"

    darleysam on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I guess my problem and many other people's problems with that chart is that it's just one measurement devoid of context. How many games were released on each system? How many of those games were multiplatform releases? How many of those games made a profit and by how much?
    The chart wasn't made for that though. The chart was made in response to the claim that third party sales on the Wii are unusually low compared to the other consoles. Nintendo didn't mean have any purpose other than that for the chart.
    Maybe because there are dozens of people who already do that? But when we get some nintendo statements all there is are posts of "it prints money" and general fanboy wankery?
    The current top dog usually doesn't have to distort facts much in PR. Nintendo distorted the truth when it wa doing poorly during the GC generation, and Sony didn't have to distort the truth much with the PS2.

    Couscous on
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    elkataselkatas Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    darleysam wrote: »
    Then when the charts show that they don't, it's "hurf MS fanboy it doesn't HAVE to sell as much!"

    If getting into TOP-10 would be requirement for doing well, then majority of PS2 and DS 3rd party games are total flops, and market itself would be totally fucked.

    elkatas on
    Hypnotically inclined.
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    RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Yeah, it's really important to take into account costs when looking at sales. For example, Atlus will probably sell around 100k copies of Persona 4 in the US and they'll probably be thrilled at those results, because the game has already paid for itself in Japan so all the US sales have to do is cover the cost of localization (which is drastically lower than making a whole new game).

    Or to use an even more extreme case, if my XNA Community Game ends up selling 10k copies, I would be ecstatic since all it'll end up costing is a $100 membership fee and a lot of time designing and programming. The game would be a tremendous success at 10k sales whereas most games would be considered horrendous bombs at those sales.

    RainbowDespair on
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    elkatas wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Then when the charts show that they don't, it's "hurf MS fanboy it doesn't HAVE to sell as much!"

    If getting into TOP-10 would be requirement for doing well, then majority of PS2 and DS 3rd party games are total flops.

    I'm talking straight sales figures here, though. It's being suggested that, contrary to the meme, 3rd party games sell just as well on the Wii as the 360 or PS3, and probably even better. Surely if that were the case, there would be 3rd party Wii games in that list?

    Yes they might be selling less but still turning a profit, but that's not what's being argued.

    darleysam on
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    JCRooksJCRooks Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    JCRooks wrote: »
    EDIT:
    @Deacon - And yes, I go back to "fanboy" quite often because that's frankly, what I see a lot here. Which is fine, because a lot of people have admitted their biases. Just don't be surprised when myself, and others, who try to be a bit more objective, are more skeptical about something that comes from a company's press release verbatim. :)


    Well friend, I try to be as objective as possible when i'm making my sales analysis , and even then I admit my bias must show; no one is completely objective). I'll tell you first hand Rooks, your bias shows even in your attempt to be objective.

    Well obviously I am biased, and I have never tried to hide that. :)

    That said, I try to remain objective (much to the chagrin of other fanboys, primarily on the Sony and Nintendo variety), because it's the games industry that I know and love, and not so much the company. I have many friends who have jumped all around the industry, and it's something that I've thought of as well. So even though I admit my bias, it's also healthy for myself to remain objective as best as I can because who knows, I may be working around the corner at Nintendo next year.

    The funny thing is that I used to be the biggest Nintendo fanboy when I was growing up. I still consider myself a fan of Nintendo's business practices, and many of us are in awe of what they've managed to do this generation. But this doesn't mean they get a "free pass" with everything they do, nor should I believe everything that they say. That would be rather silly to do as well. Just as silly as believing everything my "corporate masters" say too.

    Anyway, I'm leaving this conversation because it's obvious that once the "fanwankery" accusations has made, well, it's sort of like Godwin's Law. No more good can be made. (And besides, I have a dinner date to go to!)

    Oh yeah, someone wake up toxk and see who wins the predictions! I'll do one last NPD prediction prize for December, then it's on hiatus for a while.

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    DeaconKnowledgeDeaconKnowledge Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I guess my problem and many other people's problems with that chart is that it's just one measurement devoid of context. How many games were released on each system? How many of those games were multiplatform releases? How many of those games made a profit and by how much?

    If you just look at that chart and draw the conclusion that 3rd party companies are selling better on the Wii, then our current reality makes no sense. If they're selling better on the Wii, then why are Microsoft and even Sony getting better 3rd party support than Nintendo? That's why you need to look at the big picture and not focus too much on any one piece of information.

    Very good question.

    The answer, to put it simply, is more software. The Wii as a console ships far more software then the PS3 and 360 do. To put it bluntly, in an absolute sense, Nintendo is receiving better console support via raw development and units sold.

    Where it differs is in two areas; budget, and quality. The 360 and PS3 are host to a wealth of the top tier developers, particularly the Western ones (for example, in this December's NPD, the 3rd party representation is comprised of Activision, EA/Valve, and of you count them, Epic, all of which are most prominent on the 360/PS3.) who are providing higher quality titles than the average 3rd party Wii developer.

    This is why the Sales vs. Quality argument always springs up; because besides Wiis dominance, it still isn't host to the best and brightest third parties have to offer. This, coupled with the pre-eminence of the "Top 10" in gamers' eyes (Take for example Shaun White Snowboarding, wherein the Wii version is the highest selling and is forecasted to break a million units, isn't talked about because of its lack of an appearance in the top 10) makes people raise eyebrows when graphs indicating the Wii selling more software are posted in sales threads.

    DeaconKnowledge on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    The next person to use the phrase "fan-wankery" will be dragged out and shot.

    Couscous on
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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    darleysam wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Which was itself said (by me, if we're going back there) in response to Nintendo fanwankery.
    Wankery which was in response to the same assumptive attitude you reiterated in your post.

    I still haven't seen anything to prove that Wii software sales are unacceptable to third parties, which was what you implied.

    Okay, going immediately off that data, in the two Top 10s on page 3, we've got one third-party Wii game for December, and none for the year.

    I see two for the 360 and one for the PS3 in December, and four for the 360 and one for the PS3 for the year. These numbers are also pretty low in magnitude. The Wii is doing pretty good for December, but when looking at the yearly data the other two consoles are doing quite literally infinitely better.

    However, an absence of sweet, sweet numbers does not indicate an absence of sales. The Wii games for which we have no account do not have zero sales. Third parties are not jumping ship, and we have observed a long tail effect in sales (an example from 2008), along with regular glimpses into third party sales which are generally quite respectable.
    But the argument is that they sell just as well. Those numbers in those charts disagree.
    The argument is that they do not sell poorly enough that it is of any concern. It does appear that even if they do not sell just as well, they are not far behind.

    UncleSporky on
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    DeaconKnowledgeDeaconKnowledge Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    JCRooks wrote: »
    JCRooks wrote: »
    EDIT:
    @Deacon - And yes, I go back to "fanboy" quite often because that's frankly, what I see a lot here. Which is fine, because a lot of people have admitted their biases. Just don't be surprised when myself, and others, who try to be a bit more objective, are more skeptical about something that comes from a company's press release verbatim. :)


    Well friend, I try to be as objective as possible when i'm making my sales analysis , and even then I admit my bias must show; no one is completely objective). I'll tell you first hand Rooks, your bias shows even in your attempt to be objective.

    Well obviously I am biased, and I have never tried to hide that. :)

    That said, I try to remain objective (much to the chagrin of other fanboys, primarily on the Sony and Nintendo variety), because it's the games industry that I know and love, and not so much the company. I have many friends who have jumped all around the industry, and it's something that I've thought of as well. So even though I admit my bias, it's also healthy for myself to remain objective as best as I can because who knows, I may be working around the corner at Nintendo next year.

    The funny thing is that I used to be the biggest Nintendo fanboy when I was growing up. I still consider myself a fan of Nintendo's business practices, and many of us are in awe of what they've managed to do this generation. But this doesn't mean they get a "free pass" with everything they do, nor should I believe everything that they say. That would be rather silly to do as well. Just as silly as believing everything my "corporate masters" say too.

    Anyway, I'm leaving this conversation because it's obvious that once the "fanwankery" accusations has made, well, it's sort of like Godwin's Law. No more good can be made. (And besides, I have a dinner date to go to!)

    Oh yeah, someone wake up toxk and see who wins the predictions! I'll do one last NPD prediction prize for December, then it's on hiatus for a while.


    You're getting a bit melodramatic. No ones saying you have to go on hiatus or anything like that. I'm just trying to show you that for someone trying to be objective, your constant "fanboy" baiting is anything but.

    DeaconKnowledge on
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    elkataselkatas Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    darleysam wrote: »
    Surely if that were the case, there would be 3rd party Wii games in that list?

    When market is healthy, sales distribute more evenly between the titles. Due market size, there is potential for 3rd party hit, but potential and market size doesn't help when you don't have skill and desire to capitalize it. There has not been 3rd party game that would cause lemmings effect due its hype and marketing. Nobody has even tried. X360's situation is quite opposite. Last month over 65 percent of X360 softwares sales came from eight titles and were distributed between four companies. Two were first party.

    elkatas on
    Hypnotically inclined.
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    rocky62rocky62 Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    The next person to use the phrase "fan-wankery" will be dragged out and shot.

    hey, i'm a wankery fan :P

    rocky62 on
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    lowlylowlycooklowlylowlycook Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    So SE says FFXIII won't be out until 2010 in the West.
    from Kotaku

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    So SE says FFXIII won't be out until 2010 in the West.
    from Kotaku

    What is the usually period between Japanese release date and US release date for FF games?

    Couscous on
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    elkataselkatas Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    What is the usually period between Japanese release date and US release date for FF games?

    10-11 months, give or take.

    elkatas on
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    mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    darleysam wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Which was itself said (by me, if we're going back there) in response to Nintendo fanwankery.
    Wankery which was in response to the same assumptive attitude you reiterated in your post.

    I still haven't seen anything to prove that Wii software sales are unacceptable to third parties, which was what you implied.

    Okay, going immediately off that data, in the two Top 10s on page 3, we've got one third-party Wii game for December, and none for the year.

    You guys really have no sense of irony do you? You're all like "incomplete data olol" and then we go back to using only the top 10 to determine the general health of third-party sales on the Wii.

    Thank God there's no Microsoft fanwankery here, nope not at all.

    Again, on one side it's

    "The Wii sells just as many 3rd party games as the other consoles!"

    Then when the charts show that they don't, it's "hurf MS fanboy it doesn't HAVE to sell as much!"

    What the fuck are you talking about? I never said that the top 10 charts don't matter, or that 3rd party sales are equal on the 360 and Wii. I said that it was hypocritical to go after the Nintendo 3rd party chart because of its' incomplete data after using a similarly (or even more so) limited set of data to try and argue that Wii 3rd party sales are unhealthy.

    mynameisguido on
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    Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Third party games sell well on the Wii. Because there are a lot of them. That's why.

    Xenogears of Bore on
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    CadeCade Eppur si muove.Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    For the sake of things(or against it I'm not sure) here is another chart that might put things into perspective.

    graphusa01e.png

    Cade on
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    greeblegreeble Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    So SE says FFXIII won't be out until 2010 in the West.
    from Kotaku

    What is the usually period between Japanese release date and US release date for FF games?

    Yeah the ps3 version is being delayed in the US so they can port it to the xbox...

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    Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Third party games sell well on the Wii. Because there are a lot of them. That's why.

    That's not true! That's unpossible!

    Santa Claustrophobia on
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    darleysam wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Which was itself said (by me, if we're going back there) in response to Nintendo fanwankery.
    Wankery which was in response to the same assumptive attitude you reiterated in your post.

    I still haven't seen anything to prove that Wii software sales are unacceptable to third parties, which was what you implied.

    Okay, going immediately off that data, in the two Top 10s on page 3, we've got one third-party Wii game for December, and none for the year.

    You guys really have no sense of irony do you? You're all like "incomplete data olol" and then we go back to using only the top 10 to determine the general health of third-party sales on the Wii.

    Thank God there's no Microsoft fanwankery here, nope not at all.

    Again, on one side it's

    "The Wii sells just as many 3rd party games as the other consoles!"

    Then when the charts show that they don't, it's "hurf MS fanboy it doesn't HAVE to sell as much!"

    What the fuck are you talking about? I never said that the top 10 charts don't matter, or that 3rd party sales are equal on the 360 and Wii. I said that it was hypocritical to go after the Nintendo 3rd party chart because of its' incomplete data after using a similarly (or even more so) limited set of data to try and argue that Wii 3rd party sales are unhealthy.

    Relax, please?
    Okay, firstly, it's being argued that that chart is there to show those sales in the best possible light (since it's from a Nintendo conference showing Nintendo superiority), and that's fine. Really. But it highlights its validity to this argument, that it might be best not to take it as gospel proof that everything is equal.
    Yes I'd love to see a bigger list than that top 10 if you have that data. Until then, I'll work with what I've got.

    darleysam on
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    DeaconKnowledgeDeaconKnowledge Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Apparently Wii Music sold 865,000 in December.

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    RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Apparently Wii Music sold 865,000 in December.

    Did you put an extra 0 in there? Because the 10th best selling game had about half a million sales and Wii Music wasn't on the top 10 list.

    RainbowDespair on
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    Shady3011Shady3011 Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Someone got the top 20 list for December?

    Shady3011 on
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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Apparently Wii Music sold 865,000 in December.

    Did you put an extra 0 in there? Because the 10th best selling game had about half a million sales and Wii Music wasn't on the top 10 list.

    The top 10 only lists games, not non-games.

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    mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    The number is YTD, apparently, which means it sold around 400k this month.

    mynameisguido on
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    aBlankaBlank Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Apparently Wii Music sold 865,000 in December.

    Did you put an extra 0 in there? Because the 10th best selling game had about half a million sales and Wii Music wasn't on the top 10 list.

    865000 is how much it sold in 2008, not just in December (source IGN).

    (edit) beaten!

    aBlank on
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    DeaconKnowledgeDeaconKnowledge Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Apparently Wii Music sold 865,000 in December.

    Did you put an extra 0 in there? Because the 10th best selling game had about half a million sales and Wii Music wasn't on the top 10 list.

    Sorry, I think that's for the year.

    I just got that skimming the NeoGAF thread. Still looking for the source.

    edit: IGN apparently.

    January 15, 2009 - The 2008 NPD numbers are in, and Nintendo cleaned up with five of the top 10 best-selling games. Despite our best efforts to warn the world, Wii Music is a definite success with 865,465 units sold so far in North America alone. That number wasn't enough to get it into the top 10 for the year, but it's still an impressive amount and the 38th best-selling game of the year. Nintendo raked in over $41 million on the toy.

    DeaconKnowledge on
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    XiaNaphryzXiaNaphryz Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Apparently Wii Music sold 865,000 in December.

    Did you put an extra 0 in there? Because the 10th best selling game had about half a million sales and Wii Music wasn't on the top 10 list.

    The top 10 only lists games, not non-games.

    Unless you're talking about Japan sales charts anyway.

    XiaNaphryz on
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    fragglefartfragglefart Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Cade wrote: »
    For the sake of things(or against it I'm not sure) here is another chart that might put things into perspective.

    graphusa01e.png

    Nice graph.

    And OMG trends!

    fragglefart on
    fragglefart.jpg
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