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First 100 Days: Day 9 - Of Cocktails and Cocksuckers

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    werehippywerehippy Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    So yeah, he's starting tonight, it seems.

    http://www.politico.com/politico44/
    BREAKING: White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel stops Bush’s last-minute regs. Emanuel signs a memorandum ordering all agencies and departments to stop all pending regulations until a legal and policy review can be conducted by the Obama administration.

    And that's why we chose Captain Ballbuster for the role. Glad to see he's anxious enough to start early. I can only wonder what crazy antics we shall hear of during his time as chief of staff.

    This is the man who promised to kill his enemies at an election celebration dinner, mailed someone a dead fish, and told the prime minster of our closest ally not to fuck up meeting Clinton. Unless he just starts slapping people, I think Rahmbo's craziness has peaked.

    werehippy on
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    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    werehippy wrote: »
    So yeah, he's starting tonight, it seems.

    http://www.politico.com/politico44/
    BREAKING: White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel stops Bush’s last-minute regs. Emanuel signs a memorandum ordering all agencies and departments to stop all pending regulations until a legal and policy review can be conducted by the Obama administration.

    And that's why we chose Captain Ballbuster for the role. Glad to see he's anxious enough to start early. I can only wonder what crazy antics we shall hear of during his time as chief of staff.

    This is the man who promised to kill his enemies at an election celebration dinner, mailed someone a dead fish, and told the prime minster of our closest ally not to fuck up meeting Clinton. Unless he just starts slapping people, I think Rahmbo's craziness has peaked.

    oh he's only just begun...

    Medopine on
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    BarcardiBarcardi All the Wizards Under A Rock: AfganistanRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    raiden the neopolitan ice cream

    Barcardi on
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    MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    At a minimum I want Obama to form some sort of committee to look into prosecuting Bush and Co. to keep the insane branch of the sane end of the political spectrum from going nuts.

    MKR on
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    TekDragonTekDragon __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    MKR wrote: »
    At a minimum I want Obama to form some sort of committee to look into prosecuting Bush and Co. to keep the insane branch of the sane end of the political spectrum from going nuts.

    He'd rather make 90% of the country happy than pacify the 5% of extreme leftists who are going to hate him anyway for every day that goes by that doesn't have Venezuelan-esque nationalization.

    TekDragon on
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    OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    MKR wrote: »
    At a minimum I want Obama to form some sort of committee to look into prosecuting Bush and Co. to keep the insane branch of the sane end of the political spectrum from going nuts.

    That would rank as one of the stupidest ways to begin his administration. Even if it would be just, it would not be remotely smart or practical. And I like to hope that Obama is both smart and practical, because we could use a smart and practical president at this point.

    OremLK on
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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    TekDragon wrote: »
    Change.gov is visited primarily by hard core leftists. The same online communities that make up DU, MoveOn, and Koz are the biggest activists on Change.gov.

    You know what all those groups share in common?

    Democrats ignore them as soon as an election cycle is over. Because they're fucking lunatics.

    Good to know.

    Your political system is so entertaining.

    Forar on
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    durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I think it would be just, right, and preferable to prosecute our erstwhile oligarchs. But it's not at all practical.

    durandal4532 on
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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I think it would be just, right, and preferable to prosecute our erstwhile oligarchs. But it's not at all practical.
    I'm not sure when it would be practical to do so if not now, when the current President's approval is 80% and the exiting President's is ~20%

    PantsB on
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    QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    TekDragon wrote: »
    Change.gov is visited primarily by hard core leftists. The same online communities that make up DU, MoveOn, and Koz are the biggest activists on Change.gov.

    You know what all those groups share in common?

    Democrats ignore them as soon as an election cycle is over. Because they're fucking lunatics.
    They're not lunatics. They're activists, but that doesn't mean they're lunatics by a long shot. Especially since you probably agree with 98% of their ideology and you don't self-identify as a lunatic.

    Part of the progressive movement is channeling the ideology of activists—who are traditionally considered on the "fringe" by the mainstream media—into mainstream politics. But I'm not even convinced that places like DKos are on the fringe anymore. Mostly because the mainstream media is fracturing, the internet has given them more influence, and as activists, they are smarter than the previous generation of activists.

    Maybe not with pot legalization right away—but I think "leftist activisits" will find a politically smart way to get listened to—and I hope they do.

    Qingu on
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    durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    I think it would be just, right, and preferable to prosecute our erstwhile oligarchs. But it's not at all practical.
    I'm not sure when it would be practical to do so if not now, when the current President's approval is 80% and the exiting President's is ~20%

    It's a flaw.

    durandal4532 on
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    Lord YodLord Yod Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    The thing is, no matter how awesome it would be to try these guys for the various crimes we all know they've committed, wouldn't it be better to spend that time and energy getting the country back on track?

    Boil it down to, which is better: Being right, or people knowing that you're right? If Obama's administration can step in and make everything awesome again, isn't that good enough?

    Lord Yod on
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    ObsObs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    Guys, forget it.

    Barack Obama isn't the kind of guy who spends a lot of time looking backward at the past I'm sorry to tell you. Haven't you realize this? He's all about moving forward and the more time we spend trying to childishly get Bush the less time we spend moving forward.

    Obs on
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    PicardathonPicardathon Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    We're never prosecuting Bush.
    Even if there's evidence, the guy who's saying that we need to move beyond political divides isn't going to go around and do something that would inflame those tensions for no other reason other than placating his own base. Dictionaries in the future would have it down near the definition of "hypocrisy".

    Picardathon on
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Obs wrote: »
    Barack Obama isn't the kind of guy who spends a lot of time looking backward at the past I'm sorry to tell you. Haven't you realize this? He's all about moving forward and the more time we spend trying to childishly get Bush the less time we spend moving forward.

    Yeah, this, pretty much.

    Daedalus on
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    Lord YodLord Yod Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Honestly, if he just goes through all of the executive orders and strikes down a bunch as being blatantly illegal, that's good enough for me.

    Lord Yod on
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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    We're never prosecuting Bush.
    Even if there's evidence, the guy who's saying that we need to move beyond political divides isn't going to go around and do something that would inflame those tensions for no other reason other than placating his own base. Dictionaries in the future would have it down near the definition of "hypocrisy".

    Giant hole in your argument is underlined. Holding our leaders accountable, not putting leaders above the law and not putting political expediency above the law are important things for a society to do if it is to remain a healthy democracy

    PantsB on
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    ObsObs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    We're never prosecuting Bush.
    Even if there's evidence, the guy who's saying that we need to move beyond political divides isn't going to go around and do something that would inflame those tensions for no other reason other than placating his own base. Dictionaries in the future would have it down near the definition of "hypocrisy".

    Giant hole in your argument is underlined. Holding our leaders accountable, not putting leaders above the law and not putting political expediency above the law are important things for a society to do if it is to remain a healthy democracy

    You should have done that while he was in power.

    Too late now.

    It's over. Let it go.

    Obs on
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    We tried, but our democratic leaders were fucking pussies.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    SavantSavant Simply Barbaric Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Qingu wrote: »
    TekDragon wrote: »
    Change.gov is visited primarily by hard core leftists. The same online communities that make up DU, MoveOn, and Koz are the biggest activists on Change.gov.

    You know what all those groups share in common?

    Democrats ignore them as soon as an election cycle is over. Because they're fucking lunatics.
    They're not lunatics. They're activists, but that doesn't mean they're lunatics by a long shot. Especially since you probably agree with 98% of their ideology and you don't self-identify as a lunatic.

    Part of the progressive movement is channeling the ideology of activists—who are traditionally considered on the "fringe" by the mainstream media—into mainstream politics. But I'm not even convinced that places like DKos are on the fringe anymore. Mostly because the mainstream media is fracturing, the internet has given them more influence, and as activists, they are smarter than the previous generation of activists.

    Maybe not with pot legalization right away—but I think "leftist activisits" will find a politically smart way to get listened to—and I hope they do.

    I'd say that some of them are loonies, but not all of them. I don't really know what percentage would be because most of them are probably quiet (like, lurkers).

    As for the Bush prosecution stuff, favor for that won't necessarily follow ideological lines, or at the very least completely along partisan lines. There are going to be quite a few political moderates and libertarians off to the side who hate Bush for his transgressions and wouldn't have a problem with his crew being prosecuted. The most likely case I think of that happening would be Obama throwing the book at some Bush lackeys, but not necessarily the man himself.

    Savant on
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Savant wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    TekDragon wrote: »
    Change.gov is visited primarily by hard core leftists. The same online communities that make up DU, MoveOn, and Koz are the biggest activists on Change.gov.

    You know what all those groups share in common?

    Democrats ignore them as soon as an election cycle is over. Because they're fucking lunatics.
    They're not lunatics. They're activists, but that doesn't mean they're lunatics by a long shot. Especially since you probably agree with 98% of their ideology and you don't self-identify as a lunatic.

    Part of the progressive movement is channeling the ideology of activists—who are traditionally considered on the "fringe" by the mainstream media—into mainstream politics. But I'm not even convinced that places like DKos are on the fringe anymore. Mostly because the mainstream media is fracturing, the internet has given them more influence, and as activists, they are smarter than the previous generation of activists.

    Maybe not with pot legalization right away—but I think "leftist activisits" will find a politically smart way to get listened to—and I hope they do.

    I'd say that some of them are loonies, but not all of them. I don't really know what percentage would be because most of them are probably quiet (like, lurkers).

    As for the Bush prosecution stuff, favor for that won't necessarily follow ideological lines, or at the very least completely along partisan lines. There are going to be quite a few political moderates and libertarians off to the side who hate Bush for his transgressions and wouldn't have a problem with his crew being prosecuted. The most likely case I think of that happening would be Obama throwing the book at some Bush lackeys, but not necessarily the man himself.

    Hell, one of the most prominent voices for Bush prosecution is Bruce Fein, who was a deputy AG under Reagan. It's an interesting coalition of constitutional law types.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Obs wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    We're never prosecuting Bush.
    Even if there's evidence, the guy who's saying that we need to move beyond political divides isn't going to go around and do something that would inflame those tensions for no other reason other than placating his own base. Dictionaries in the future would have it down near the definition of "hypocrisy".

    Giant hole in your argument is underlined. Holding our leaders accountable, not putting leaders above the law and not putting political expediency above the law are important things for a society to do if it is to remain a healthy democracy

    You should have done that while he was in power.

    Too late now.

    It's over. Let it go.
    So after how many years since committing a crime does one's guilt lessen?

    Just ballpark it for me.

    MikeMan on
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    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2009
    wow I am sick of people joking about mainlining caffeine

    Medopine on
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    werehippywerehippy Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Obs wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    We're never prosecuting Bush.
    Even if there's evidence, the guy who's saying that we need to move beyond political divides isn't going to go around and do something that would inflame those tensions for no other reason other than placating his own base. Dictionaries in the future would have it down near the definition of "hypocrisy".

    Giant hole in your argument is underlined. Holding our leaders accountable, not putting leaders above the law and not putting political expediency above the law are important things for a society to do if it is to remain a healthy democracy

    You should have done that while he was in power.

    Too late now.

    It's over. Let it go.

    Amazingly enough, a desire to see the rule of law enforced can be driven by something other than personal vendetta. And considering we're all of 11 hours into the next administration, it's probably a bit early to start getting touchy about people still actually advocating for things they think are a good idea.

    We're almost certain to never see anything along the lines of any sort of prosecution of anyone at the cabinet level or higher, but that has a lot more to do with the lack of political will and a capitulation to short term pragmatism than what's actually right or how the idea fits in with the philosophy Obama supports. And that doesn't rule out either the possibility of prosecution of lower level administration staff or private groups that were involved or some sort of house cleaning without legal consequences.

    Seeing the abuses of the Bush administration brought to light isn't about punishing the people involved, at least not primarily. It's about making sure that it's loud and clear that the message taken from the last years is "Corruption will be found out and there will be consequences, be they personal or political" as opposed to "No one will have the stones to stop you from doing anything, as long as you aren't also simultaneously incompetent."

    It isn't about thinking about what's best over the next 6 months, or the midterms, or next term, or even about the next democratic president. It's about who the next republican president will be (and no matter how good we are, there will be one eventually) and what kind of a presidency they'll have. Because since Nixon the republican party has been trending undeniably in one direction, demonizing the opposition or the unAmerican to get into office and then doing everything humanly possible to shower rewards on your support and fuck the opposition.

    So if everyone just accepts that we have to be complicit in covering up the most brazen and ham handed corruption in modern American history, who exactly do you think that next republican president will be, and what will they have learned? Will they buck the trend and every experienced political operative in their party to limit executive power and stay within the law, or will they try to do a just good enough job at running the country that no one bothers to say anything about the corruption?

    I can understand why it's a political quagmire, and I'm not willing to throw everything else we can do away to make a point on this issue, but it is an important issue and it deserves more thought and attention that a quiet brush off, especially among people like us, who are outside the political system and have nothing to lose and every reason to want to see this dealt with.

    werehippy on
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    OhtheVogonityOhtheVogonity Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    This seems like a great place for this:
    An accounting of all of Obama's campaign promises, and their current status of complete-itude
    Tally currently stands at:
    * Promise Kept 2

    * Compromise 0

    * Promise Broken 0

    * Stalled 1

    * In the Works 12

    * No Action 495

    They even explain each promise, cite the source, and in the cases where there has been action of some sort, they explain what's going in as fair a way as possible.



    I plan on checking up once a week.

    We'll hold up our end big guy, here's hoping you hold up yours.

    OhtheVogonity on
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    PicardathonPicardathon Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    We're never prosecuting Bush.
    Even if there's evidence, the guy who's saying that we need to move beyond political divides isn't going to go around and do something that would inflame those tensions for no other reason other than placating his own base. Dictionaries in the future would have it down near the definition of "hypocrisy".

    Giant hole in your argument is underlined. Holding our leaders accountable, not putting leaders above the law and not putting political expediency above the law are important things for a society to do if it is to remain a healthy democracy

    There are so many different things to do in regards to justice other than prosecuting Bush.
    Getting rid of Gitmo, depoliticizing the Justice Department, abolishing the death penalty (because of course the state is always so correct about these things that we are able to put people to death am I right?), getting rid of all of the other secret prisons, wiretapping, et cetera.
    Okay, so you're right, there is some merit to prosecuting Bush, but the amount of political capital it would take to run the trials for Bush and everyone else would be equivalent to the amount of political capital that it would take to do all of this other stuff which would not only help set the tone of a justice focused administration, but would also actually help people.
    Also, it doesn't matter how much the prosecution is purely focused on justice, the moral of the story would be "if you have any things that you did during your administration that you want covered up you need to pardon everyone and anyone involved with it or else the other party will immediately destroy you over it as soon as they are in office".
    I would be upset with the guy who said that he's trying to move beyond the boomer divisions and issues and hate if he went ahead and fed it enough coal to fire it for the next fifty years.

    Picardathon on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Obs wrote: »
    Guys, forget it.

    Barack Obama isn't the kind of guy who spends a lot of time looking backward at the past I'm sorry to tell you. Haven't you realize this? He's all about moving forward and the more time we spend trying to childishly get Bush the less time we spend moving forward.


    Wow, this is your first post that I really agree with. Say more things like this, please and less of the nonsense.

    Regina Fong on
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    durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    This seems like a great place for this:
    An accounting of all of Obama's campaign promises, and their current status of complete-itude
    Tally currently stands at:
    * Promise Kept 2

    * Compromise 0

    * Promise Broken 0

    * Stalled 1

    * In the Works 12

    * No Action 495

    They even explain each promise, cite the source, and in the cases where there has been action of some sort, they explain what's going in as fair a way as possible.



    I plan on checking up once a week.

    We'll hold up our end big guy, here's hoping you hold up yours.

    That's pretty sweet. I usually end up disagreeing with a lot of these sorts of sites, but there should be more of them. For me, the biggest promise of the Obama administration is that there is some chance he will listen to and consider reasonable argument and criticism.

    durandal4532 on
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    agoajagoaj Top Tier One FearRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    TekDragon wrote: »
    MKR wrote: »
    At a minimum I want Obama to form some sort of committee to look into prosecuting Bush and Co. to keep the insane branch of the sane end of the political spectrum from going nuts.

    He'd rather make 90% of the country happy than pacify the 5% of extreme leftists who are going to hate him anyway for every day that goes by that doesn't have Venezuelan-esque nationalization.

    But we have to chase Batman!

    agoaj on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Lord Yod wrote: »
    The thing is, no matter how awesome it would be to try these guys for the various crimes we all know they've committed, wouldn't it be better to spend that time and energy getting the country back on track?

    Boil it down to, which is better: Being right, or people knowing that you're right? If Obama's administration can step in and make everything awesome again, isn't that good enough?

    This has pretty much been Obama's message from the beginning. Trying to get revenge on the old administration will do absolutely nothing to fix the sorry state the country is in. He said it time and time again about Mccain's attacks on him being liberal, he's steadfastly stuck to the idea that we cannot move forward while looking backward. The same kind of mudslinging bullshit we've seen for the past decade has done nothing to help either party, or the country at large.





    Even though I could die tomorrow a happy man if I knew GWB was going to face prison for high treason or some other such obscenely serious charge. Of course, he wouldn't face prosecution even if Obama fixed his entire administration on such a goal, so the entire thing is pretty much a non starter.

    Now I think it's possible some (lower level) individuals who worked for the Bush administration may be prosecuted down the road.

    override367 on
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Well, the real thing he should do is to appoint Patrick Fitzgerald to "establish the truth of what happened for the American people" or some such and give him subpoena power. If he uncovers felonies, he's gonna prosecute them because that's the kind of guy he is. And I think we all recognize that the Bush Administration committed felonies at least to the level of the Vice President.

    enlightenedbum on
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    Lord YodLord Yod Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    I thought that's what they were going to do anyways?

    I mean as far as going through administration orders and directives and such.

    Lord Yod on
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    kdrudykdrudy Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Well, the real thing he should do is to appoint Patrick Fitzgerald to "establish the truth of what happened for the American people" or some such and give him subpoena power. If he uncovers felonies, he's gonna prosecute them because that's the kind of guy he is. And I think we all recognize that the Bush Administration committed felonies at least to the level of the Vice President.

    This I can get behind, and investigation by someone like that doesn't take up the administrations time.

    kdrudy on
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    There's always the option of declaring Bush to be an enemy combatant.

    HamHamJ on
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    OhtheVogonityOhtheVogonity Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    kdrudy wrote: »
    Well, the real thing he should do is to appoint Patrick Fitzgerald to "establish the truth of what happened for the American people" or some such and give him subpoena power. If he uncovers felonies, he's gonna prosecute them because that's the kind of guy he is. And I think we all recognize that the Bush Administration committed felonies at least to the level of the Vice President.

    This I can get behind, and investigation by someone like that doesn't take up the administrations time.

    I second this motion.


    I don't even care if they bring up charges. I just want to know exactly what happened, and while I'm wishing I want it to be so cut and dried that the whole country can realize what nasty schemers they all were.

    So next time some asshole comes along with the same line of bullshit, instead of handing over the keys to the country, we tell him to fuck off.

    Never Forget.

    <jpg of eagle shedding single tear>

    OhtheVogonity on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    There's always the option of declaring Bush to be an enemy combatant.

    Oh the irony of this would literally kill me

    override367 on
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    OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    It's not even about the time and energy so much as the expenditure of political capital and the divisiveness that we just don't need right now.

    While the point about keeping our leaders accountable is a valid one, it's also a double-edged sword; Once we go down that road, every future president is going to have to think about covering his ass all the time. Because otherwise his political adversaries will take advantage of any toe out of line as soon as he steps out of office. I'm not saying that I know the net effect would be worse, I just don't believe it's all for the good, and when combined with the current political climate I think it would be a very bad idea to start that particular ball rolling right now.

    OremLK on
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    We committed war crimes because of these people. They were our democratically elected leaders and they committed war crimes.

    They have to be prosecuted. We're a rogue nation right now.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    We committed war crimes because of these people. They were our democratically elected leaders and they committed war crimes.

    They have to be prosecuted. We're a rogue nation right now.

    Governments do shitty things, that doesn't make them a "rogue nation". Unless I'm mistaken people still trade with us, because if they stopped we'd fall apart then they'd never get the debt we owe them back.

    override367 on
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    We committed war crimes because of these people. They were our democratically elected leaders and they committed war crimes.

    They have to be prosecuted. We're a rogue nation right now.

    Governments do shitty things, that doesn't make them a "rogue nation". Unless I'm mistaken people still trade with us, because if they stopped we'd fall apart then they'd never get the debt we owe them back.

    War crimes are different. Our former President cannot leave the country without being arrested and we're not willing to arrest him. What exactly do we call that, if not a rogue nation?

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
This discussion has been closed.