YOU CAN NOT EXPECT TO COUNTER A UNIT WITH A UNIT IN AN RTS. THERE ARE TOO MANY OTHER VARIABLES. THESE CAN INCLUDE: RESOURCE DENIAL, FLANKING MANEUVERS, DIFFERENT BUILD ORDERS, VICTORY POINT PLAY, HARD AND SOFT COUNTERS, ETC ETC. I AM NOT BEING ANGRY MY CAPS LOCK IS STUCK.
Sucks about your caps key.
But, you pretty much just made my point.
Solution to a problem? Avoid it until you get a super hard counter. That's not a step back. That's a gigantic leap back.
I don't think you should instantly write the game off just because you don't enjoy it in beta form.
I mean, for god's sake the whole reason they're doing a month-long multiplayer beta because they want the community's help to balance the game to appeal to the most people possible. There's certainly a chance the game will be more palatable to you on release day than it is now.
wat. no. You misunderstand what I say. No.. forget about it. Tek if you don't like the game that's fine.
I'm sorry, I missed your last point: soft counters. Every other point you made involved avoiding the problem.
Why don't you share your soft counter for clearing a bolter from a building, since none of us here have one. I'm sure everyone would appreciate your advice.
TekDragon on
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
wat. no. You misunderstand what I say. No.. forget about it. Tek if you don't like the game that's fine.
Going off what he's said, I get the feeling he will love Starcraft 2 when it comes out, since it's just a rehash of the first one, apparently.
DoW 2 is not CoH. It is not DoW 1. If they wanted to run with the same old formula they'd have pushed out another expansion pack for DoW 1, and maybe touched up the graphics engine. Get over it.
And the game is very heavily focused on strategy Tek. It's got a decent balance between macro and micro. If you can't do both you'll fail miserably at it. I just got into a game where we lost horribly, thanks to my idiot team-mates deciding that simply hitting a and attack-moving to the VP's and hitting their skill hotkeys as soon as they saw an enemy was a recipe to victory. This is compared to moving from cover to cover like I was doing, and using them at the right moment. At least I managed to hold onto the one I was defending.
wat. no. You misunderstand what I say. No.. forget about it. Tek if you don't like the game that's fine.
I'm sorry, I missed your last point: soft counters. Every other point you made involved avoiding the problem.
Why don't you share your soft counter for clearing a bolter from a building, since none of us here have one. I'm sure everyone would appreciate your advice.
I'm no Kinderparty but I've cleared bolters from buildings with upgraded Slugga squads using flamers.
Man, the guys who were watching your game are in no position to be nerfing anything.
Let's keep it that way, I'm having a hard enough time refining my approach with the space marines as it is. :P
Operative21 on
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited January 2009
I think Captain K will agree with me if I say that the biggest reason to buy this game is to use a big green ork as a stealth commando and shank a dude from behind.
uhm. In 1v1, if there's a bolter in a building, I just use the logic that there's a guy in that building there, so he has one less unit than me in the field (thinking of SM mirror here). The most annoying building in 1v1 is that silly one in the jungle map with no green cover around it. Well I have an army larger than his, probably with a heavy bolter where as he does not, and so I simply push around other stages of the map, hitting his economy since he just wants to chill in a hoose. Then I get a razorback and face
wat. no. You misunderstand what I say. No.. forget about it. Tek if you don't like the game that's fine.
I'm sorry, I missed your last point: soft counters. Every other point you made involved avoiding the problem.
Why don't you share your soft counter for clearing a bolter from a building, since none of us here have one. I'm sure everyone would appreciate your advice.
People actually did, but you probably missed them in the pace of the thread. Stuff like flamers or snipers or, gosh, just avoiding that point until you have some hard counter and let him waste those resources. There's a lot of options, honestly.
I don't think you should instantly write the game off just because you don't enjoy it in beta form.
I mean, for god's sake the whole reason they're doing a month-long multiplayer beta because they want the community's help to balance the game to appeal to the most people possible. There's certainly a chance the game will be more palatable to you on release day than it is now.
Possibly, and I'm still debating getting it for the co-op campaign and the 3v3 play (which I have fun with,
even with Goomba who everyone warned me about
But the tiny number of units (all 3 tiers in DoW2 + specials = 33-50% of the units in a CoH army), territory structure, resource mechanics, and technology trees all seem ingrained in the game. That's just the type of game they made.
I think Captain K will agree with me if I say that the biggest reason to buy this game is to use a big green ork as a stealth commando and shank a dude from behind.
I don't think you should instantly write the game off just because you don't enjoy it in beta form.
I mean, for god's sake the whole reason they're doing a month-long multiplayer beta because they want the community's help to balance the game to appeal to the most people possible. There's certainly a chance the game will be more palatable to you on release day than it is now.
Possibly, and I'm still debating getting it for the co-op campaign and the 3v3 play (which I have fun with,
even with Goomba who everyone warned me about
But the tiny number of units (all 3 tiers in DoW2 + specials = 33-50% of the units in a CoH army), territory structure, resource mechanics, and technology trees all seem ingrained in the game. That's just the type of game they made.
Well, it's a possibility that you'll never like it, but you're a smart dude and you have a lot of intelligent shit to say, so if you decide to stick with the beta and offer feedback, the game will probably end up better for your constructive criticism.
Just don't push people's buttons while you're at it. :P
wat. no. You misunderstand what I say. No.. forget about it. Tek if you don't like the game that's fine.
I'm sorry, I missed your last point: soft counters. Every other point you made involved avoiding the problem.
Why don't you share your soft counter for clearing a bolter from a building, since none of us here have one. I'm sure everyone would appreciate your advice.
People actually did, but you probably missed them in the pace of the thread. Stuff like flamers or snipers or, gosh, just avoiding that point until you have some hard counter. There's a lot of options, honestly.
Can you de-equip a flamer from a tac squad once you've given it to him? If not, you've just dedicated 1/5th of your army to being a "building clearer" (in a game where people rarely use buildings) who can't use plasma or missiles later on. That's a massive dedication for a 500 manpower unit that takes up 15 pop cap.
Compare that to CoH where equipping an engineer with a flame thrower was neither crippling or situational. I realize this isn't CoH, but the comparison in strategic depth of options is glaring.
As for sniper upgrade on a scout - I may be incorrect, but doesn't sniper require tier 2 and 60 power?
TekDragon on
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
wat. no. You misunderstand what I say. No.. forget about it. Tek if you don't like the game that's fine.
I'm sorry, I missed your last point: soft counters. Every other point you made involved avoiding the problem.
Why don't you share your soft counter for clearing a bolter from a building, since none of us here have one. I'm sure everyone would appreciate your advice.
That may not have been directed at me. But it depends on the race. This is setting aside the fact that so far, all of the maps have garrisonable buildings in places where you can just run around them, and not have to deal with them. Even the right-most VP on that Desert Gate map can be capped without having to worry about a bolter squad shooting you, since it's just out of range.
Tyranids: Ripper squad supported by any synapse aura capable creature. They get in range, distract the enemy, player goes off to the side with the rest of his ranged units, and proceeds to obliterate the enemies inside. Alternatively whatever the Tyranid's close range building clearing weapon is.
Marines: Plasma Cannons, dreadnaughts, snipers, or just avoid the damn thing. Predators work too, but they take too long to get out usually.
Eldar: Haven't played them much, so i'd say Rangers.
Orcs: Why even bother? Orcs can just ignore the thing and descend on the bolter squad in a tide of green flesh when they ungarrison it. If you have too, though, flamers, looted tanks, and those killa kan units work well.
Answer your question?
Edit: Holy shit, there's a coop campaign?
Archonex on
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
I think Captain K will agree with me if I say that the biggest reason to buy this game is to use a big green ork as a stealth commando and shank a dude from behind.
uhm. In 1v1, if there's a bolter in a building, I just use the logic that there's a guy in that building there, so he has one less unit than me in the field (thinking of SM mirror here). The most annoying building in 1v1 is that silly one in the jungle map with no green cover around it. Well I have an army larger than his, probably with a heavy bolter where as he does not, and so I simply push around other stages of the map, hitting his economy since he just wants to chill in a hoose. Then I get a razorback and face
wat. no. You misunderstand what I say. No.. forget about it. Tek if you don't like the game that's fine.
I'm sorry, I missed your last point: soft counters. Every other point you made involved avoiding the problem.
Why don't you share your soft counter for clearing a bolter from a building, since none of us here have one. I'm sure everyone would appreciate your advice.
People actually did, but you probably missed them in the pace of the thread. Stuff like flamers or snipers or, gosh, just avoiding that point until you have some hard counter. There's a lot of options, honestly.
Can you de-equip a flamer from a tac squad once you've given it to him? If not, you've just dedicated 1/5th of your army to being a "building clearer" (in a game where people rarely use buildings) who can't use plasma or missiles later on. That's a massive dedication for a 500 manpower unit that takes up 15 pop cap.
I may be incorrect, but doesn't sniper require tier 2 and 60 power?
Flamers are actually really great weapons in their own right, and in many cases preferential to plasma, unless you're fighting some noob who dosent use cover.
Yeah, a tac squad with a flamer isn't just a building clearer. It will face-rape infantry under any circumstances--it just does extra rape when they're in cover or a building.
How do people generally use their tac marines? I rarely find that they're worth their cost. I seem to do much better when I use specialised units like Scouts and Devastators.
How do people generally use their tac marines? I rarely find that they're worth their cost. I seem to do much better when I use specialised units like Scouts and Devastators.
A forward unit that I keep about half a screen in front of my devestators. Get the enemy to focus on fighting them and draw them into the devs firing arc.
Also once you get them to t2 they're no slouches in fighting melee units when you pop the "They shall know no fear" ability.
Yeah, a tac squad with a flamer isn't just a building clearer. It will face-rape infantry under any circumstances--it just does extra rape when they're in cover or a building.
Hmm, I tried using them and wasn't impressed. Dedicated ranged units will outrange the flamer, requiring you to move through open cover to get in range, risking running into a bolter. Dedicated melee units (ASM/Banshees) don't even care about the silly flamer while they're lolthroatpunching the tac marines.
Yeah, a tac squad with a flamer isn't just a building clearer. It will face-rape infantry under any circumstances--it just does extra rape when they're in cover or a building.
Hmm, I tried using them and wasn't impressed. Dedicated ranged units will outrange the flamer, requiring you to move through open cover to get in range, risking running into a bolter. Dedicated melee units (ASM/Banshees) don't even care about the silly flamer while they're lolthroatpunching the tac marines.
Why are you running tac marines across open terrain anyways? Give them some cover fire, at least. At most, try to maneuver them so they run past heavy cover.
Yeah, a tac squad with a flamer isn't just a building clearer. It will face-rape infantry under any circumstances--it just does extra rape when they're in cover or a building.
Hmm, I tried using them and wasn't impressed. Dedicated ranged units will outrange the flamer, requiring you to move through open cover to get in range, risking running into a bolter. Dedicated melee units (ASM/Banshees) don't even care about the silly flamer while they're lolthroatpunching the tac marines.
It certainly works best if you've got the target unit suppressed or tied up in melee somehow. I think flamers (for any faction) are best in team games where you can run your flame squad up to a big scrum and pour damage on the enemy's melee squads.
Tek did you see me answer you? Are you a better SM player now and content with DOW2?
You missed my point. I love SM and I've a pretty decent player with them. My comments weren't in regard to game balance (not counting the flamer discussion we're having now). My comments were in comparing the massive leap backwards in strategic options you have available in DoW2 (avoid the situation until an expensive super counter becomes available ie: dread or sniper) vs CoH (12 counters I can think of in tier 1 ALONE).
I'm of the opinion that being able the change weapons and upgrades on standard units would be a major improvement to the game.
I'm not sure, I think I like that you have to commit to one upgrade or another. I liked this about CoH too.
I abuse the hell out of the commander loadout switch option with my Kommando--I usually buy all three of his weapons and change them constantly. Do I need to assassinate a hero, deal with an infantry blob, or take down a vehicle? By the time the Kommando's walked a screen and a half I can have the right weapon equipped.
Kinderparty writing about how the powersword is worthless makes me sad. Before the beta went live, it used to decimate light buildings. I used it to harass and obliterate my opponents economy early game.
Yeah, a tac squad with a flamer isn't just a building clearer. It will face-rape infantry under any circumstances--it just does extra rape when they're in cover or a building.
Hmm, I tried using them and wasn't impressed. Dedicated ranged units will outrange the flamer, requiring you to move through open cover to get in range, risking running into a bolter. Dedicated melee units (ASM/Banshees) don't even care about the silly flamer while they're lolthroatpunching the tac marines.
Why are you running tac marines across open terrain anyways? Give them some cover fire, at least. At most, try to maneuver them so they run past heavy cover.
lol, if only cover worked like that.
Unfortunately cover is sporadic. You know those gaps of open terrain between cover? That's open terrain
How do people generally use their tac marines? I rarely find that they're worth their cost. I seem to do much better when I use specialised units like Scouts and Devastators.
I started experimenting with them recently. Although they're not a great investment at t1, from t2 onwards they're actually pretty decent, especially once they level up a bit. They're generally more robust than scouts and unlike devastators they don't have that fixed arc of fire or setup time.
Personally, I've found I like equipping mine with rocket launchers as it gives them the flexibility to deal with armor and infantry equally well. Just keep them away from specialized melee assault units if you can.
Operative21 on
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
Yeah, a tac squad with a flamer isn't just a building clearer. It will face-rape infantry under any circumstances--it just does extra rape when they're in cover or a building.
Hmm, I tried using them and wasn't impressed. Dedicated ranged units will outrange the flamer, requiring you to move through open cover to get in range, risking running into a bolter. Dedicated melee units (ASM/Banshees) don't even care about the silly flamer while they're lolthroatpunching the tac marines.
Why are you running tac marines across open terrain anyways? Give them some cover fire, at least. At most, try to maneuver them so they run past heavy cover.
lol, if only cover worked like that.
Unfortunately cover is sporadic. You know those gaps of open terrain between cover? That's open terrain
So get your hands on some of the delicious ass-kicking that is assault marines, and jump them into whatever is bothering you as you move the flamers up. You can't ignore assault marines, because they put out a hellish amount of melee damage. And provided you don't choose the wrong target to jump too, they'll not only knock the enemies back (And I think.) and make them have to set up any heavy weapons again, they'll also engage them in melee combat, allowing your tac marines to sit on the other side of the cover they were using and give them a napalm bath.
Posts
Sucks about your caps key.
But, you pretty much just made my point.
Solution to a problem? Avoid it until you get a super hard counter. That's not a step back. That's a gigantic leap back.
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=444691
Plus he has a few good replays.
100 wins!
I mean, for god's sake the whole reason they're doing a month-long multiplayer beta because they want the community's help to balance the game to appeal to the most people possible. There's certainly a chance the game will be more palatable to you on release day than it is now.
I'm sorry, I missed your last point: soft counters. Every other point you made involved avoiding the problem.
Why don't you share your soft counter for clearing a bolter from a building, since none of us here have one. I'm sure everyone would appreciate your advice.
Going off what he's said, I get the feeling he will love Starcraft 2 when it comes out, since it's just a rehash of the first one, apparently.
DoW 2 is not CoH. It is not DoW 1. If they wanted to run with the same old formula they'd have pushed out another expansion pack for DoW 1, and maybe touched up the graphics engine. Get over it.
And the game is very heavily focused on strategy Tek. It's got a decent balance between macro and micro. If you can't do both you'll fail miserably at it. I just got into a game where we lost horribly, thanks to my idiot team-mates deciding that simply hitting a and attack-moving to the VP's and hitting their skill hotkeys as soon as they saw an enemy was a recipe to victory. This is compared to moving from cover to cover like I was doing, and using them at the right moment. At least I managed to hold onto the one I was defending.
I'm no Kinderparty but I've cleared bolters from buildings with upgraded Slugga squads using flamers.
No lie.
Let's keep it that way, I'm having a hard enough time refining my approach with the space marines as it is. :P
Possibly, and I'm still debating getting it for the co-op campaign and the 3v3 play (which I have fun with,
But the tiny number of units (all 3 tiers in DoW2 + specials = 33-50% of the units in a CoH army), territory structure, resource mechanics, and technology trees all seem ingrained in the game. That's just the type of game they made.
I really really really love the Kommando
Well, it's a possibility that you'll never like it, but you're a smart dude and you have a lot of intelligent shit to say, so if you decide to stick with the beta and offer feedback, the game will probably end up better for your constructive criticism.
Just don't push people's buttons while you're at it. :P
but I am not really sleepy enough
Can you de-equip a flamer from a tac squad once you've given it to him? If not, you've just dedicated 1/5th of your army to being a "building clearer" (in a game where people rarely use buildings) who can't use plasma or missiles later on. That's a massive dedication for a 500 manpower unit that takes up 15 pop cap.
Compare that to CoH where equipping an engineer with a flame thrower was neither crippling or situational. I realize this isn't CoH, but the comparison in strategic depth of options is glaring.
As for sniper upgrade on a scout - I may be incorrect, but doesn't sniper require tier 2 and 60 power?
That may not have been directed at me. But it depends on the race. This is setting aside the fact that so far, all of the maps have garrisonable buildings in places where you can just run around them, and not have to deal with them. Even the right-most VP on that Desert Gate map can be capped without having to worry about a bolter squad shooting you, since it's just out of range.
Tyranids: Ripper squad supported by any synapse aura capable creature. They get in range, distract the enemy, player goes off to the side with the rest of his ranged units, and proceeds to obliterate the enemies inside. Alternatively whatever the Tyranid's close range building clearing weapon is.
Marines: Plasma Cannons, dreadnaughts, snipers, or just avoid the damn thing. Predators work too, but they take too long to get out usually.
Eldar: Haven't played them much, so i'd say Rangers.
Orcs: Why even bother? Orcs can just ignore the thing and descend on the bolter squad in a tide of green flesh when they ungarrison it. If you have too, though, flamers, looted tanks, and those killa kan units work well.
Answer your question?
Edit: Holy shit, there's a coop campaign?
Orkz.
Kommando.
Captain K.
It was destiny.
Flamers are actually really great weapons in their own right, and in many cases preferential to plasma, unless you're fighting some noob who dosent use cover.
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/portals.php?show=page&name=dawn-of-war-2-beta-force-commander-overview
I also only use Tacs and rarely use ASM. I just use them as big super enhanced grenadiers and save that power for Razorback.
A forward unit that I keep about half a screen in front of my devestators. Get the enemy to focus on fighting them and draw them into the devs firing arc.
Also once you get them to t2 they're no slouches in fighting melee units when you pop the "They shall know no fear" ability.
Hmm, I tried using them and wasn't impressed. Dedicated ranged units will outrange the flamer, requiring you to move through open cover to get in range, risking running into a bolter. Dedicated melee units (ASM/Banshees) don't even care about the silly flamer while they're lolthroatpunching the tac marines.
Why are you running tac marines across open terrain anyways? Give them some cover fire, at least. At most, try to maneuver them so they run past heavy cover.
I thought you could buy them a new bonus weapon to replace their old one...
It certainly works best if you've got the target unit suppressed or tied up in melee somehow. I think flamers (for any faction) are best in team games where you can run your flame squad up to a big scrum and pour damage on the enemy's melee squads.
You missed my point. I love SM and I've a pretty decent player with them. My comments weren't in regard to game balance (not counting the flamer discussion we're having now). My comments were in comparing the massive leap backwards in strategic options you have available in DoW2 (avoid the situation until an expensive super counter becomes available ie: dread or sniper) vs CoH (12 counters I can think of in tier 1 ALONE).
I'm not sure, I think I like that you have to commit to one upgrade or another. I liked this about CoH too.
I abuse the hell out of the commander loadout switch option with my Kommando--I usually buy all three of his weapons and change them constantly. Do I need to assassinate a hero, deal with an infantry blob, or take down a vehicle? By the time the Kommando's walked a screen and a half I can have the right weapon equipped.
lol, if only cover worked like that.
Unfortunately cover is sporadic. You know those gaps of open terrain between cover? That's open terrain
I started experimenting with them recently. Although they're not a great investment at t1, from t2 onwards they're actually pretty decent, especially once they level up a bit. They're generally more robust than scouts and unlike devastators they don't have that fixed arc of fire or setup time.
Personally, I've found I like equipping mine with rocket launchers as it gives them the flexibility to deal with armor and infantry equally well. Just keep them away from specialized melee assault units if you can.
So get your hands on some of the delicious ass-kicking that is assault marines, and jump them into whatever is bothering you as you move the flamers up. You can't ignore assault marines, because they put out a hellish amount of melee damage. And provided you don't choose the wrong target to jump too, they'll not only knock the enemies back (And I think.) and make them have to set up any heavy weapons again, they'll also engage them in melee combat, allowing your tac marines to sit on the other side of the cover they were using and give them a napalm bath.