We were talking some thread (maybe the raid thread?) about lore/raid instances. Apparently there's a new blizzcast up, and I noticed this:
Apart from all that, there is a whole other aspect the Lich King, which is the Yog Saron plot line. We are suggesting that there is a certain old god component that really moves as a major undercurrent in the Warcraft continuity. Just how is Yog Saron tied to the Scourge or Lich King specifically? I won’t tell you, at this point, but it is definitely a major hook that we are driving forward. Whatever the old gods’ story is, it is not going to end in Northrend. It’s a global threat and really plays to the much broader context of what the Warcraft conflict really is.
Damn old gods. :P
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
I think we have some hints that Yogg Saron was causing Loken to go all loopy.
I wonder what sort of ties the Lich King has with Yogg Saron...I have a feeling they might try to indirectly tie a lot of stuff to Yogg Saron. In the very least, it sounds like the Lich King's fortress is made of the metal blood of the old god.
I'm pretty sure there's more than hints that Yogg Saron is fucking with Loken, as in quests directly refer to it. I used to think that this mean Yogg Saron would be the last boss of Ulduar. Which is still possible, but its influence probably goes farther than that. Then again, if Arthas will be the last boss of the Icecrown Citadel raid, it would be sort of lame for Yogg Saron to not be the last boss of its instance...
Hints? Quests? The guy outright says he's working for yogg in that little speech he makes before you encounter him in HoL.
At this point I'm 95% convinced yogg will be the final boss of Ulduar.
As someone who isn't raiding anymore I feel like there's more content to do than in TBC for a non raiding PVE player. Even if there is fewer heroics pretty much all except for three of the TBC ones fucking sucked anyway, so there's more instances I'll actually run now.
Yeah. I can't imagine there isn't a time savings when using the same tilesets for your raid in a new 5 man, and folding the lore into it, and much of the weapon/armor design.
Yeah. I can't imagine there isn't a time savings when using the same tilesets for your raid in a new 5 man, and folding the lore into it, and much of the weapon/armor design.
That's ignoring the fact that it's probably impossible to have boss mechanics that are anywhere near each other between the two. It's no secret that they like to require certain classes for some fights, and I don't see them dropping that habit to make a 5/25 instance work.
Yeah. I can't imagine there isn't a time savings when using the same tilesets for your raid in a new 5 man, and folding the lore into it, and much of the weapon/armor design.
That's ignoring the fact that it's probably impossible to have boss mechanics that are anywhere near each other between the two. It's no secret that they like to require certain classes for some fights, and I don't see them dropping that habit to make a 5/25 instance work.
Oh no, not a duplicate instance for 5 people. A second instance, that goes along with the raid. Like how the Eye works with Botanica, Mechanar etc.
Yeah. I can't imagine there isn't a time savings when using the same tilesets for your raid in a new 5 man, and folding the lore into it, and much of the weapon/armor design.
That's ignoring the fact that it's probably impossible to have boss mechanics that are anywhere near each other between the two. It's no secret that they like to require certain classes for some fights, and I don't see them dropping that habit to make a 5/25 instance work.
Oh no, not a duplicate instance for 5 people. A second instance, that goes along with the raid. Like how the Eye works with Botanica, Mechanar etc.
Oh okay, my bad.
I think you're right that it can't really be all that difficult. Most BC instances managed to be pretty fun without having a lot of fights that were complex in any way.
Magisters Terrace and Sunwell is a pretty good example as well, a newer harder 5man for the rest and a newer harder raid for the raiders (though maybe not on the same level as Sunwell : b)
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if we see something besides Ulduar in patch 3.1. I mean, patch 2.1 added a bunch of new daily stuff for new and existing factions on top of the Black Temple. I wouldn't be surprised if that's when they implement the Horde/Allaince factions in Crystalsong Forest.
Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, Zul Gurrub, Gates of AQ, Temple of AQ, Naxx.
Not really counting Ony or the massive amount of world dragons, either.
Really it's just MC, BWL, TAQ, and Naxx. With Ony and the World Dragons thrown in. And ZG/RAQ were midtier dungeons. I know this isn't new information.
They can't really do that with WotLK now since everything has both a 10man and 25man version.
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Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, Zul Gurrub, Gates of AQ, Temple of AQ, Naxx.
Not really counting Ony or the massive amount of world dragons, either.
Really it's just MC, BWL, TAQ, and Naxx. With Ony and the World Dragons thrown in. And ZG/RAQ were midtier dungeons. I know this isn't new information.
They can't really do that with WotLK now since everything has both a 10man and 25man version.
They mixed up the tier sets in TBC more than in Vanilla, actually. T2 in vanilla dropped from 3 dungeons, but t4 and 5 also came from like 3 each.
Ony is a tier dungeon, but isn't really directly connected with BWL like gruul and mag are with kara, since it came out way before BWL. Kind of wierd design. Probably left over from the days when both sets dropped in MC?
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Right now you have a 10 AND a 25 man coming out with each raid content patch. Not counting the raid instances that will be patched into the wyrmrest temple.
Sarth+3 is much more of a challenge than anything provided in vanilla WoW's 1st 3 raid instances.
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A 10 and a 25 man that provide the same amount of content as just one.
I disagree.
You could only do MC, BWL, AQ40 or Naxx once per week. Back when it was just MC and BWL, it was fairly regular for my crew with 4-5 raid nights per week to do them in 2 nights total, and then were left with solo and small group adventures. ZG of course added another night of more casual fooling around, and later instances eventually filled up the week, as we weren't able to fully finish AQ40 or Naxx (all but 3 bosses in AQ40, only about 1/3 of Naxx).
With 4 x 25 + 4 x 10 + Archavon/Malygos/Sartharion x 2 (or whatever his name is), etc, that's 8 full instances and 6 'onyxia style' encounters on a one week reset. That's a whole shitload of content across just 7 zones, and probably more than most people will ever complete in a week. I'm sure the hardcore will do it (twice, with alts, while drunk, and half a raid, whatever), but the new style really does lend itself to giving people plenty to do by the time the expansion is winding down.
Compared to TBC's release, we have a roughly equal number of instances, with a couple extra "onxyia style" zones thrown in.
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First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
That's like saying taking a raid, and cutting the reset timer in half, suddenly gives you more content. The bosses are almost exactly the same, the instance is visually identical, I dont' consider the 10 and 25 man versions additive in terms of content.
That's like saying taking a raid, and cutting the reset timer in half, suddenly gives you more content. The bosses are almost exactly the same, the instance is visually identical, I dont' consider the 10 and 25 man versions additive in terms of content.
They're not additive in terms of new content, but if a person is so inclined, they can run Naxx 10 man and 25 man in the same week. Hell, in the same day, if their group can do it.
Once you completed Molten Core, you were done.
A 13 ilevel difference is a pretty minimal amount between the two loot tables, so it's an extra set of chances to gear people up, try people out, and do things as a group. They even have seperate achievements, which will drive some players on for ages on their own.
While the mechanics are certainly similar, the simple nature of having 40% of the group size to work with does change things significantly. On one hand, the number of tanks for many encounters is disproportionately high (there aren't many 25 man encounters that take 5 tanks), healers can be hit or miss (but hybrids help balance it, to be sure), and as easy as it can be to just grab ~6 dps and fly with it, with fewer people on hand, the lust (if not necessity) to have a Replenisher on hand can drive some groups batty. God knows I listened to enough bitching about them on Vent in past months.
I agree that while doing Naxx 10 and Naxx 25 isn't the same as doing MC and ZG in the same week, it is at least something to do, with appreciably similar/viable loot, and can pose its own set of challenges.
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First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Whoops, read that as a 20. A 5 man group ought to not have much trouble. We have groups of ~15-20 people that sometimes do AQ40, and they clear the whole instance in around a half hour.
ZG: Soloable almost completely. Hakkar is a bit of a pain. Classes without reliable interrupts will have issues with the couple bosses that heal in there. Axe Throwers in trash packs > most everything else in that instance.
Molten core: Trash is soloable if you can reliably heal yourself. Very very slow going on my Holy Paladin, but is doable. Bosses with Curse/healing debuff mechanics require someone that can remove them. Ghennas(SP?)'s curse can still kill you, simply because it's a huge(75% or more) healing reduction, and he still hits decently enough that you won't kill him before he kills you. Sulfuron the Harbringer and his 4 adds require more than 2 people. You have to be able to still drag one add away and kill it at a time. They will all still heal, and will do so frequently enough that you're not killing them without interrupting. Golemagg and his puppies are quite capable of rocking you, because the fire debuff and puppy bites stack up enough to still be a lethal combo. Bottom line, have 2-manned up to Sulf/Major Domo. With the patch change, I'd like to see if Ragnaros is up all by himself, or if Major Domo is still required to be defeated. Haven't gotten around to it yet.
AQ40: Same as MC. Boss mechanics are still going to mess up most solo attempts. Consider parties of 5-7 people, and you should be fine.
AQ20: DK can solo the whole thing. (Whole thing being bosses in the way of a direct path, and including Ossirian.)
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Damn old gods. :P
At this point I'm 95% convinced yogg will be the final boss of Ulduar.
Hahah, awesome.
Hopefully they'll release a new 5-man or two alonge the way as well. There doesnt seem to be as many as there was in BC
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They've actually posted that there are no plans for a new 5 man in 3.1
I said along the way.
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Right, I'm just posting it's going to be later rather than sooner.
Someone had better make this happen.
edit: or else
What a shock, Blizzard is yet again missing a perfect opportunity to provide new content for the non-raiders, at lower cost to themselves.
Tempest Keep had 3, same with Coilfang, which are probably the models of good 5 man/raid grouping.
I think people were hoping for a 5 man instance in Uldum?
Oh no, not a duplicate instance for 5 people. A second instance, that goes along with the raid. Like how the Eye works with Botanica, Mechanar etc.
I think you're right that it can't really be all that difficult. Most BC instances managed to be pretty fun without having a lot of fights that were complex in any way.
Wouldn't it be 4 raids, including Naxx?
Which puts it on par for Classic and TBC, this time we just know that's their plan in advance.
Not really counting Ony or the massive amount of world dragons, either.
Really it's just MC, BWL, TAQ, and Naxx. With Ony and the World Dragons thrown in. And ZG/RAQ were midtier dungeons. I know this isn't new information.
They can't really do that with WotLK now since everything has both a 10man and 25man version.
FFBE: 838,975,107
Dokkan: 1668363315
They mixed up the tier sets in TBC more than in Vanilla, actually. T2 in vanilla dropped from 3 dungeons, but t4 and 5 also came from like 3 each.
Ony is a tier dungeon, but isn't really directly connected with BWL like gruul and mag are with kara, since it came out way before BWL. Kind of wierd design. Probably left over from the days when both sets dropped in MC?
Molten core = ZG = AQ20 -> Blacking Lair -> AQ40 -> Naxx
Right now you have a 10 AND a 25 man coming out with each raid content patch. Not counting the raid instances that will be patched into the wyrmrest temple.
Sarth+3 is much more of a challenge than anything provided in vanilla WoW's 1st 3 raid instances.
I disagree.
You could only do MC, BWL, AQ40 or Naxx once per week. Back when it was just MC and BWL, it was fairly regular for my crew with 4-5 raid nights per week to do them in 2 nights total, and then were left with solo and small group adventures. ZG of course added another night of more casual fooling around, and later instances eventually filled up the week, as we weren't able to fully finish AQ40 or Naxx (all but 3 bosses in AQ40, only about 1/3 of Naxx).
With 4 x 25 + 4 x 10 + Archavon/Malygos/Sartharion x 2 (or whatever his name is), etc, that's 8 full instances and 6 'onyxia style' encounters on a one week reset. That's a whole shitload of content across just 7 zones, and probably more than most people will ever complete in a week. I'm sure the hardcore will do it (twice, with alts, while drunk, and half a raid, whatever), but the new style really does lend itself to giving people plenty to do by the time the expansion is winding down.
Compared to TBC's release, we have a roughly equal number of instances, with a couple extra "onxyia style" zones thrown in.
They're not additive in terms of new content, but if a person is so inclined, they can run Naxx 10 man and 25 man in the same week. Hell, in the same day, if their group can do it.
Once you completed Molten Core, you were done.
A 13 ilevel difference is a pretty minimal amount between the two loot tables, so it's an extra set of chances to gear people up, try people out, and do things as a group. They even have seperate achievements, which will drive some players on for ages on their own.
While the mechanics are certainly similar, the simple nature of having 40% of the group size to work with does change things significantly. On one hand, the number of tanks for many encounters is disproportionately high (there aren't many 25 man encounters that take 5 tanks), healers can be hit or miss (but hybrids help balance it, to be sure), and as easy as it can be to just grab ~6 dps and fly with it, with fewer people on hand, the lust (if not necessity) to have a Replenisher on hand can drive some groups batty. God knows I listened to enough bitching about them on Vent in past months.
I agree that while doing Naxx 10 and Naxx 25 isn't the same as doing MC and ZG in the same week, it is at least something to do, with appreciably similar/viable loot, and can pose its own set of challenges.
MC
ZG
AQ40
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Molten core: Trash is soloable if you can reliably heal yourself. Very very slow going on my Holy Paladin, but is doable. Bosses with Curse/healing debuff mechanics require someone that can remove them. Ghennas(SP?)'s curse can still kill you, simply because it's a huge(75% or more) healing reduction, and he still hits decently enough that you won't kill him before he kills you. Sulfuron the Harbringer and his 4 adds require more than 2 people. You have to be able to still drag one add away and kill it at a time. They will all still heal, and will do so frequently enough that you're not killing them without interrupting. Golemagg and his puppies are quite capable of rocking you, because the fire debuff and puppy bites stack up enough to still be a lethal combo. Bottom line, have 2-manned up to Sulf/Major Domo. With the patch change, I'd like to see if Ragnaros is up all by himself, or if Major Domo is still required to be defeated. Haven't gotten around to it yet.
AQ40: Same as MC. Boss mechanics are still going to mess up most solo attempts. Consider parties of 5-7 people, and you should be fine.
AQ20: DK can solo the whole thing. (Whole thing being bosses in the way of a direct path, and including Ossirian.)
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