My opinion(which is just as valid as yours or anyone elses)...I think what they're doing sucks and I'm disappointed. As I pointed out above there's an obvious and logical solution that would keep such achievements from being trivialized without having to remove the rewards from them.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Honestly sarth10 in 10 man gear would be pretty iffy, in my opinion.
If not near impossible, if only due to the requirements from the tanks in terms of hp.
Steve is going to be wearing a lot of FrR on friday, I think.
Plus you have me.
Blessing of sacrifice what what
I fully intend to show up and do my best, but from a realistic standpoint I don't think we have a chance in hell of successfully completing 3d until both our tanks and/or dps are in way better gear. That 1D kill was already cutting it pretty close at some points. It's not really a matter of skill from the guild, it's just a matter of gear. And that's what pisses me off. If Blizzard is seriously going to make two specific paths through raid content, they need to start acting like it and balance appropriately.
The only issue I have with removing the Plagued/Black Proto Drakes, is that people who only raid 10 mans pretty much will never get these special drakes, as long as 10 man hard modes are tuned with 25 man gear in mind (because if you could do 10 man stuff in 10 man gear, 25 man gear would conceivably trivialize certain benchmarks).
This, as some have mentioned, is the main problem here. They don't seem to have thought this through when designing separate 10 and 25 man progression. 25 man gear makes 10 man achievements slightly easier. The gear difference isn't THAT huge, but when 10 man Sarth+3 is still a rare thing even in decked-out 25-man raids, there's a problem. But if they tune it down, then 10-man Glory of the Raider would be trivial for 25-man raiders. Having plagued proto-drakes be more common would probably be a better result overall if it means those 10-man raiders are actually able to complete Glory too, but either conclusion is not ideal.
On top of that, it'll be like the bear where people use it as a fake status symbol.
If you make it easier to get, then you get to roll your eyes at the guys on their black protodrake like it matters.
Like people who used to AFK on Krasus Landing on bronze drakes?
I do think it's curious that they haven't mentioned removing the twilight/black drake drops. Those are also rewards for completing the content on hard mode that will be "trivialized" (if indeed anything will be trivialized) by Ulduar gear. I think THOSE more than the Glory drakes are comparable to the Amani War Bear.
I do think it's curious that they haven't mentioned removing the twilight/black drake drops. Those are also rewards for completing the content on hard mode that will be "trivialized" (if indeed anything will be trivialized) by Ulduar gear. I think THOSE more than the Glory drakes are comparable to the Amani War Bear.
I'm surprised they left those in when they chose to remove the protodrakes. It would be like removing the ZG mounts but leaving the Amani war bear in. If you want to talk status symbols the Sarth+3 mount rewards are it.
Hate: OS Run last night was seriously amateur hour. Fucking MT turned Sarth to face the entire raid during lava waves. In my history of OS Runs this was the first time I ever got cleaved by this boss.
HATE: Got killed early in the fight, and didn't get Battle rezzed til much later.
Happy: There was another hunter in the raid SIGNIFICANTLY better geared than me and beat them hands down. I beat them on Sarth even though I was dead for most of that fight.
KHAAAAANNNNNN: Fucking dumbshit rogue kept charging Sarth, getting killed and resetting the boss. Fucking serious waste of time.
They need to tune the 10-man achievements down to match the gear level. 10 man Sarth 3D was absolutely retarded in its tuning. It shouldn't matter if 25 man geared raiders can then more easily complete the achievement. That achievement isn't for them. It's for people on the 10 man progression track. There is still the incentive to complete the (should be) higher tuned 25 man achievements for them as status symbol. Everyone who sees a 25 man guild with little to no 25 man achievements, and all the 10 man achievements is going to know they phoned it in with higher gear.
Sarth 3D was absolutely tuned way too high for 10 man. IMO the other 10 man achievements are all very completable in 10 man gear.
Hate: Missed out on Hodir testing last night because I had to fight with the PTR Patch downloader all fucking night long. At least it's set up now. I'm hopeful that we'll steal some offnights this week and use them to work on the PTR, especially if they keep Hodir and the Iron Council open through the weekend.
Amusing: One of our tanks has already called the Iron Council as just being copies of the Illidari council with metal plates and green crystals in their chests.
Hope: Iron Council is more of the Karathress-style council fight than the Illidari. I hate Illidari, it was so boring, the concept of just tanking three of them while burning down one's shared health sucks and makes for a ten-minute-long one-trick pony fight. SO BORING. Meanwhile, a council fight where you have to tank and kill each add in turn, plus the Karathress thing where the main boss gains an ability with each add you kill, was interesting.
Also I'm imagining that you can pull them each separately or all together for Sartharion+drakes style hard mode options.
riz on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Amusing: One of our tanks has already called the Iron Council as just being copies of the Illidari council with metal plates and green crystals in their chests.
Happy: Getting myself a Black war bear from a PUG raid last night. Best part is, I didn't die once and I'm lvl 74
Happy: My profs are finally starting to make me some money at a decent rate.
KHAAAAAAAN: Still so far away from epic riding
Well, the argument of "I can do CoT Strat in thirty minutes and then have no way of getting back to Dalaran short of hiking there from Tanaris" is pretty compelling. I'm glad they reconsidered.
That would be interesting, actually... if at the end of every instance, there was a portal back to where your hearth is set. But then I guess we'd just be running through RFC to kill the one guy and ghetto hearth.
riz on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
Hope: Iron Council is more of the Karathress-style council fight than the Illidari. I hate Illidari, it was so boring, the concept of just tanking three of them while burning down one's shared health sucks and makes for a ten-minute-long one-trick pony fight. SO BORING. Meanwhile, a council fight where you have to tank and kill each add in turn, plus the Karathress thing where the main boss gains an ability with each add you kill, was interesting.
Also I'm imagining that you can pull them each separately or all together for Sartharion+drakes style hard mode options.
I ended up tanking the priest a lot on that fight. God what a snooze fest that was.
Thomamelas on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Hope: Iron Council is more of the Karathress-style council fight than the Illidari. I hate Illidari, it was so boring, the concept of just tanking three of them while burning down one's shared health sucks and makes for a ten-minute-long one-trick pony fight. SO BORING. Meanwhile, a council fight where you have to tank and kill each add in turn, plus the Karathress thing where the main boss gains an ability with each add you kill, was interesting.
Also I'm imagining that you can pull them each separately or all together for Sartharion+drakes style hard mode options.
I ended up tanking the priest a lot on that fight. God what a snooze fest that was.
I had it worse, I was the one calling the interrupt rotation, while tanking the priest.
So I was bored as hell repeating the same words over and over, but if I let my attention wander, we'd miss an interrupt.
I ended up tanking the priest a lot on that fight. God what a snooze fest that was.
If you think that was boring.... I was often the warlock who had to stand over near the priest keeping Curse of Tongues up. THRILLING. I liked when we got recruit warlocks who I could stick over there.
Amusing: When I heard the announcement on the change to the plagued and black proto drakes in 3.1, I checked out the rest of the raiding guilds on Arygos.
Of them, one guild has raiders with the plagued proto-drake. Not a single guild has managed the 25 man Immortal achievement. Only one, maybe two guilds have done it in 10 man.
Nobody on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I had it worse, I was the one calling the interrupt rotation, while tanking the priest.
So I was bored as hell repeating the same words over and over, but if I let my attention wander, we'd miss an interrupt.
I never had to call out the rotation. We had a pretty good set of rogues and an elemental shaman that took care of it.
If you think that was boring.... I was often the warlock who had to stand over near the priest keeping Curse of Tongues up. THRILLING. I liked when we got recruit warlocks who I could stick over there.
Goddamnit I need to stop posting and get to work.
Christ, I'm already at work from the time I posted till now. >.> And I think our locks tended to throw it up and forget about putting it up again.
And that fight wasn't the most boring fight by a long shot. I had to call out the movements on Chromie a number of times. And I figured I would prevent panic and call it out in a calm, soothing voice. And it worked. Worked well enough that I put two guild members to sleep. I'm really good at being calm and soothing. >.>
Happy: cleared Eye 25 and Naxx 25 in just over 3 hours. Finally finished my teir set (never wanted to wear but just have it, so i waited till all those who needed it got it first...cuz i am nice like that), also got my off hand i been waiting for Accursed Spine , just need my wand and cape to drop then my gear is done
Made me smile: there is 2 people in my guild raid I just dont like. One of them is a shaman and awesome player but beacuse he knows he is good he acts better then everyone else. He's occasionally comes on vent to yell at people over dumb things. The other is only there beacuse we love her husband, such a great player and guy ^^ but the raid carries her. 10 mans dont even want this boomkin:P
So last night we were trying for the immortal, we started on thaddius. He is going on in vent how we need to watch ourselves etc etc. Guess who was first to die? and the only one to die? Yeah I laughed.
On the 4H fight, we stick the Boomkin and a lock in the back. She dies pretty much instantly, but we finished the fight in record time. She whines on vent about no one healing her and that she can't heal herself because of interupts. someone in raid says something along the line, umm your a druid? use your HoTs. And another says your not back there to dps for agro, your back there to survive. Or else we put different classes back there besides self healing types. She didn't say a word for 2 hours. Then at the end of the night she posts dmg meters, she was dead last. Way to make yourself look bad!
Hope: Tonight i win the roll for the drake in OS ^^.
I'm surprised they left those in when they chose to remove the protodrakes. It would be like removing the ZG mounts but leaving the Amani war bear in. If you want to talk status symbols the Sarth+3 mount rewards are it.
That's not a valid comparison, since the ZG mounts are random which is why they still drop to this day. Because of this I believe they'll make the 3rd drake drop 2nd drake's loot and make the mount drop randomly.
City of Heroes has a buddy option yea? It allows a higher level player to partner up with a lower level one and artificially scales his power down to match the lower level person. Simply apply this to players wanting to do lower level instances.....allow them the option to scale their level of power down to meet the instance. Only those who match the appropriate level of power can complete the achievements(and thus receive the rewards). Problem solved.
The rewards are still there. It's still a challenge and an indication of skill. The only people that would upset are those who want to feel 'special' and lord it over everyone else.
I've been wanting something like this for a long time, maybe even something like once the level cap is raised old content could have a version where your character and gear is reset to the level cap before.
xiears on
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
The reason the Sarth+3 drakes are in, and the proto-drakes out, is that the proto drakes are 310% speed, and the Sarth drakes just look cool.
The funny things is that the arena drakes never generated this much QQ and they are essentially the same principle. Award people at the top tier every season.
I agree with this principle but I don't agree with the fact that 3 drake 10 man sartharion and Maly 6 min were balanced around 25 man gear.
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
I read one person suggest just making the achievement protos 280% speed post 3.1, but leaving them in as rewards. The whin-I mean skilled deserving people can still have their uniqueness, and the rest of the people can still actually hope to obtain those drakes. Win/win.
I read one person suggest just making the achievement protos 280% speed post 3.1, but leaving them in as rewards. The whin-I mean skilled deserving people can still have their uniqueness, and the rest of the people can still actually hope to obtain those drakes. Win/win.
It's funny that you make a post suggesting that the people who already have the proto drakes are the whiners
I read one person suggest just making the achievement protos 280% speed post 3.1, but leaving them in as rewards. The whin-I mean skilled deserving people can still have their uniqueness, and the rest of the people can still actually hope to obtain those drakes. Win/win.
It's funny that you make a post suggesting that the people who already have the proto drakes are the whiners
When they are the ones that complain about "casuals get everything handed to them" and "why can't we be speeeciaaaal", yes, that's pretty much the case.
To be fair, I'm not suggesting that they're the only ones whining, not at all, but it's definitely going on over in both sides of the fence. The great thing about the above is that it satisfies both parties (to an extent, at least, which is about the best you could ask for in this situation).
The reason the Sarth+3 drakes are in, and the proto-drakes out, is that the proto drakes are 310% speed, and the Sarth drakes just look cool.
The Amani War Bear did not go any faster than other land mounts. Going on previous decisions, the twilight/black drakes should be out.
Personally, I like what they did with 3.0 as far as making certain titles indicative of having done an achievement at the right time, and making the achievement but not the title obtainable later. They royally fucked that up by not changing the quest properly so scrubs were still getting Hand of A'dal and Champion of the Naaru post-3.0, but the idea is solid.
I read one person suggest just making the achievement protos 280% speed post 3.1, but leaving them in as rewards. The whin-I mean skilled deserving people can still have their uniqueness, and the rest of the people can still actually hope to obtain those drakes. Win/win.
When I suggested this here, I was told that raiding should be like arenas. Yeah...
Eh.. I'm bad at arenas/PVP. I will never get a gladiator drake. Would I like one? Sure, they look awesome and go fast. Do I think I deserve to earn one with, like, grinding BGs for honor a season behind? No. That is the price I pay for being bad at PVP and/or choosing not to participate.
I think the argument about 10-man and 25-man gear is a compelling one. Blizzard hasn't managed to make 10-man raid achievements self-sufficient, and an awful lot of people doing them did so in 25-man gear.
Bottom-line, there have always been 'scrubs' getting mounts, etc. that they weren't really entitled to (selling bear runs, anyone?). If there are new, cooler mounts in Ulduar, everyone will be sitting on them outside of wherever they want to show off how cool they think they are. Why not let the casuals, who are likely working harder than the 25-man raiders did to get the achievements, get a mount that'll be outdated by the time they get it anyways?
martini on
I raised the wall. And I will be the one to knock it down.
I find it hilarious that mounts are the pinnacle of status in the game now. Seriously, a collection of pixels that let you run faster and you spend maybe 20% of your play time using? That's worth frothing at the mouth for?
Back in the day it was your gear that defined you, but I suppose with Blizzard making gear so readily available, weak-willed people had to latch onto something to make them feel secure in their worth.
Well, yeah... Gear isn't a status symbol anymore, the only thing people have to lord over others is titles and mounts now.
One of our druids said last night that he recopied his main to the PTR because the original copy didn't have The Immortal and one or two new pieces of gear. But he seriously felt that not having The Immortal on the PTR was something that he needed to correct. /sigh
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
I guess that was one good thing about FFXI and the earlier days of EQ; there wasn't nearly this much dick-waving and feeling of entitlement going around, where people would get gear (or whatever) just to spend it standing around in (insert capital city here) to jerk off to being gawked at. Hell, you couldn't even /examine many people in FFXI without being considered rude.
Halfmex on
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
I guess that was one good thing about FFXI and the earlier days of EQ; there wasn't nearly this much dick-waving and feeling of entitlement going around, where people would get gear (or whatever) just to spend it standing around in (insert capital city here) to jerk off to being gawked at. Hell, you couldn't even /examine many people in FFXI without being considered rude.
Um, I don't know when you played FFXI but when I played, you weren't getting a group if your gear wasn't top of the line. Given the penalty for death, people didn't want to group with someone who wasn't going to be at their peak.
Thomamelas on
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
I guess that was one good thing about FFXI and the earlier days of EQ; there wasn't nearly this much dick-waving and feeling of entitlement going around, where people would get gear (or whatever) just to spend it standing around in (insert capital city here) to jerk off to being gawked at. Hell, you couldn't even /examine many people in FFXI without being considered rude.
Um, I don't know when you played FFXI but when I played, you weren't getting a group if your gear wasn't top of the line. Given the penalty for death, people didn't want to group with someone who wasn't going to be at their peak.
I heard about that happening, but I didn't really pug much in that game (one of the main reasons I left, actually; I had some solid gear but never got invites because very few groups wanted a monk :? ). Still, that's not so much dick-waving as it is advertising yourself; if you wanted a group, you pretty much had to stand in town flagged and waiting. Luckily I had a linkshell static so I didn't have to mess with that too often.
Anyway, I digress. Point is, FFXI's standing around was functional, whereas in WoW people stand around in Org/Stormwind/etc like models on a runway for no reason other than the attention.
Posts
And I won it with a 92. ;-)
Steam: pazython
Steve is going to be wearing a lot of FrR on friday, I think.
Plus you have me.
Blessing of sacrifice what what
I fully intend to show up and do my best, but from a realistic standpoint I don't think we have a chance in hell of successfully completing 3d until both our tanks and/or dps are in way better gear. That 1D kill was already cutting it pretty close at some points. It's not really a matter of skill from the guild, it's just a matter of gear. And that's what pisses me off. If Blizzard is seriously going to make two specific paths through raid content, they need to start acting like it and balance appropriately.
Steam | XBL: Elazual | Last.fm
This, as some have mentioned, is the main problem here. They don't seem to have thought this through when designing separate 10 and 25 man progression. 25 man gear makes 10 man achievements slightly easier. The gear difference isn't THAT huge, but when 10 man Sarth+3 is still a rare thing even in decked-out 25-man raids, there's a problem. But if they tune it down, then 10-man Glory of the Raider would be trivial for 25-man raiders. Having plagued proto-drakes be more common would probably be a better result overall if it means those 10-man raiders are actually able to complete Glory too, but either conclusion is not ideal.
Like people who used to AFK on Krasus Landing on bronze drakes?
I do think it's curious that they haven't mentioned removing the twilight/black drake drops. Those are also rewards for completing the content on hard mode that will be "trivialized" (if indeed anything will be trivialized) by Ulduar gear. I think THOSE more than the Glory drakes are comparable to the Amani War Bear.
I'm surprised they left those in when they chose to remove the protodrakes. It would be like removing the ZG mounts but leaving the Amani war bear in. If you want to talk status symbols the Sarth+3 mount rewards are it.
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
HATE: Got killed early in the fight, and didn't get Battle rezzed til much later.
Happy: There was another hunter in the raid SIGNIFICANTLY better geared than me and beat them hands down. I beat them on Sarth even though I was dead for most of that fight.
KHAAAAANNNNNN: Fucking dumbshit rogue kept charging Sarth, getting killed and resetting the boss. Fucking serious waste of time.
Sarth 3D was absolutely tuned way too high for 10 man. IMO the other 10 man achievements are all very completable in 10 man gear.
Hate: Missed out on Hodir testing last night because I had to fight with the PTR Patch downloader all fucking night long. At least it's set up now. I'm hopeful that we'll steal some offnights this week and use them to work on the PTR, especially if they keep Hodir and the Iron Council open through the weekend.
Amusing: One of our tanks has already called the Iron Council as just being copies of the Illidari council with metal plates and green crystals in their chests.
Hope: Iron Council is more of the Karathress-style council fight than the Illidari. I hate Illidari, it was so boring, the concept of just tanking three of them while burning down one's shared health sucks and makes for a ten-minute-long one-trick pony fight. SO BORING. Meanwhile, a council fight where you have to tank and kill each add in turn, plus the Karathress thing where the main boss gains an ability with each add you kill, was interesting.
Also I'm imagining that you can pull them each separately or all together for Sartharion+drakes style hard mode options.
this made me giggle
In 3.1?
That's nice.
Happy: My profs are finally starting to make me some money at a decent rate.
KHAAAAAAAN: Still so far away from epic riding
Yeah they caved under intense QQ pressure on the forums.
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
That would be interesting, actually... if at the end of every instance, there was a portal back to where your hearth is set. But then I guess we'd just be running through RFC to kill the one guy and ghetto hearth.
I ended up tanking the priest a lot on that fight. God what a snooze fest that was.
I had it worse, I was the one calling the interrupt rotation, while tanking the priest.
So I was bored as hell repeating the same words over and over, but if I let my attention wander, we'd miss an interrupt.
If you think that was boring.... I was often the warlock who had to stand over near the priest keeping Curse of Tongues up. THRILLING. I liked when we got recruit warlocks who I could stick over there.
Goddamnit I need to stop posting and get to work.
Of them, one guild has raiders with the plagued proto-drake. Not a single guild has managed the 25 man Immortal achievement. Only one, maybe two guilds have done it in 10 man.
I never had to call out the rotation. We had a pretty good set of rogues and an elemental shaman that took care of it.
Christ, I'm already at work from the time I posted till now. >.> And I think our locks tended to throw it up and forget about putting it up again.
And that fight wasn't the most boring fight by a long shot. I had to call out the movements on Chromie a number of times. And I figured I would prevent panic and call it out in a calm, soothing voice. And it worked. Worked well enough that I put two guild members to sleep. I'm really good at being calm and soothing. >.>
Made me smile: there is 2 people in my guild raid I just dont like. One of them is a shaman and awesome player but beacuse he knows he is good he acts better then everyone else. He's occasionally comes on vent to yell at people over dumb things. The other is only there beacuse we love her husband, such a great player and guy ^^ but the raid carries her. 10 mans dont even want this boomkin:P
So last night we were trying for the immortal, we started on thaddius. He is going on in vent how we need to watch ourselves etc etc. Guess who was first to die? and the only one to die? Yeah I laughed.
On the 4H fight, we stick the Boomkin and a lock in the back. She dies pretty much instantly, but we finished the fight in record time. She whines on vent about no one healing her and that she can't heal herself because of interupts. someone in raid says something along the line, umm your a druid? use your HoTs. And another says your not back there to dps for agro, your back there to survive. Or else we put different classes back there besides self healing types. She didn't say a word for 2 hours. Then at the end of the night she posts dmg meters, she was dead last. Way to make yourself look bad!
Hope: Tonight i win the roll for the drake in OS ^^.
I've been wanting something like this for a long time, maybe even something like once the level cap is raised old content could have a version where your character and gear is reset to the level cap before.
I agree with this principle but I don't agree with the fact that 3 drake 10 man sartharion and Maly 6 min were balanced around 25 man gear.
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
It's funny that you make a post suggesting that the people who already have the proto drakes are the whiners
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
To be fair, I'm not suggesting that they're the only ones whining, not at all, but it's definitely going on over in both sides of the fence. The great thing about the above is that it satisfies both parties (to an extent, at least, which is about the best you could ask for in this situation).
The Amani War Bear did not go any faster than other land mounts. Going on previous decisions, the twilight/black drakes should be out.
Personally, I like what they did with 3.0 as far as making certain titles indicative of having done an achievement at the right time, and making the achievement but not the title obtainable later. They royally fucked that up by not changing the quest properly so scrubs were still getting Hand of A'dal and Champion of the Naaru post-3.0, but the idea is solid.
When I suggested this here, I was told that raiding should be like arenas. Yeah...
Steam: pazython
Bottom-line, there have always been 'scrubs' getting mounts, etc. that they weren't really entitled to (selling bear runs, anyone?). If there are new, cooler mounts in Ulduar, everyone will be sitting on them outside of wherever they want to show off how cool they think they are. Why not let the casuals, who are likely working harder than the 25-man raiders did to get the achievements, get a mount that'll be outdated by the time they get it anyways?
Back in the day it was your gear that defined you, but I suppose with Blizzard making gear so readily available, weak-willed people had to latch onto something to make them feel secure in their worth.
One of our druids said last night that he recopied his main to the PTR because the original copy didn't have The Immortal and one or two new pieces of gear. But he seriously felt that not having The Immortal on the PTR was something that he needed to correct. /sigh
Um, I don't know when you played FFXI but when I played, you weren't getting a group if your gear wasn't top of the line. Given the penalty for death, people didn't want to group with someone who wasn't going to be at their peak.
Anyway, I digress. Point is, FFXI's standing around was functional, whereas in WoW people stand around in Org/Stormwind/etc like models on a runway for no reason other than the attention.