I guess that was one good thing about FFXI and the earlier days of EQ; there wasn't nearly this much dick-waving and feeling of entitlement going around, where people would get gear (or whatever) just to spend it standing around in (insert capital city here) to jerk off to being gawked at. Hell, you couldn't even /examine many people in FFXI without being considered rude.
Um, I don't know when you played FFXI but when I played, you weren't getting a group if your gear wasn't top of the line. Given the penalty for death, people didn't want to group with someone who wasn't going to be at their peak.
I heard about that happening, but I didn't really pug much in that game (one of the main reasons I left, actually; I had some solid gear but never got invites because very few groups wanted a monk :? ). Still, that's not so much dick-waving as it is advertising yourself; if you wanted a group, you pretty much had to stand in town flagged and waiting. Luckily I had a linkshell static so I didn't have to mess with that too often.
Anyway, I digress. Point is, FFXI's standing around was functional, whereas in WoW people stand around in Org/Stormwind/etc like models on a runway for no reason other than the attention.
The standing around because you couldn't get a group wasn't a better thing. It was a much, much worse thing. It made the game fucking unplayable. And the only way to get around it was to spend hours and hours farming to be able to be part of a group for an hour or two. Even as a raider during vanilla wow, I wasn't spending anywhere near the amount of time farming that I was in FFXI.
I can't understand the thought process that makes you think that was a better culture then WoWs. The epeen is annoying but anyone can play the fucking game.
Thomamelas on
0
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
Oh damnit, that reminds me, I forgot to log back in and open my egg when it cracked last night. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Halfmex on
0
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
The standing around because you couldn't get a group wasn't a better thing. It was a much, much worse thing. It made the game fucking unplayable. And the only way to get around it was to spend hours and hours farming to be able to be part of a group for an hour or two. Even as a raider during vanilla wow, I wasn't spending anywhere near the amount of time farming that I was in FFXI.
I can't understand the thought process that makes you think that was a better culture then WoWs. The epeen is annoying but anyone can play the fucking game.
I think we've gotten our wires crossed here. You are preaching to the choir, believe me. I'm not arguing that FFXI was a better game or something. I'm simply saying that there was a reason you stood around in town there (to get groups) whereas in WoW, people have been standing in the middle of Org since I've been playing for no reason other than to show off their latest purpz. It's not nearly as bad as it used to be (again, because so much of the gear is available across the board nowadays), but it still happens. It was pretty bad back in the days of Tier 0/1/2 though; could almost not even get to the mailbox because people would be packed around the bank area just standing there casting a shadow.
Thoma's got a handle on it. Even farming in FFXI was retarded because named mobs only spawned once every thirty years, so you spent even more time standing around doing nothing. At least the exclusivity of WoW isn't in the items you need, just a bunch of shit you might think looks cool.
Edit: Okay now that you posted that, I have to ask why you give a shit that people want to show off. Relax.
Iroh on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
Jesus christ.
Halfmex on
0
ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
You made a statement saying that it was a good thing about FFXI was the lack of people standing around showing off e-peen. Don't be surprised when people call you out because the culture of FFXI was fucked in the opposite direction.
Thomamelas on
0
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
You made a statement saying that it was a good thing about FFXI was the lack of people standing around showing off e-peen. Don't be surprised when people call you out because the culture of FFXI was fucked in the opposite direction.
The statement is valid; how fucked FFXI was or wasn't in terms of the rest of the culture or as a game is immaterial to the discussion.
You made a statement saying that it was a good thing about FFXI was the lack of people standing around showing off e-peen. Don't be surprised when people call you out because the culture of FFXI was fucked in the opposite direction.
The statement is valid; how fucked FFXI was or wasn't in terms of the rest of the culture or as a game is immaterial to the discussion.
When you praise something that comes from a fucked up situation, it is material to the discussion.
Thomamelas on
0
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
I disagree, but this discussion is really A) wildly offtopic and going nowhere, so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
remember, you can only please 50% of the people 50% of the time.
> Dilbert: I didn't have any accurate numbers so I just made up this one.
> Studies have shown that accurate numbers aren't any more useful than the
> ones you make up.
>
> Pointy-Haired-Boss: How many studies showed that?
>
> Dilbert: Eighty-seven.
You obviously didn't play EQ because even in the early days before epic weapon quests were in game, or plane of hate, or hell even the dragons people were standing around waving their imaginary dicks around.
"Look at me! I have a full set of ravenscale! LOL what's that? Blackened Iron mail, lol nice replica newb!"
KHHAAAAN: WTF is with you people? Are you all huge fans of TLC again for some reason? We back in the late '90's again and nobody told me? Let "scrub" die, it's been dying for years and years, why bring it back all of a sudden?
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
KHHAAAAN: WTF is with you people? Are you all huge fans of TLC again for some reason? We back in the late '90's again and nobody told me? Let "scrub" die, it's been dying for years and years, why bring it back all of a sudden?
Yeeeeeaaah. I blame my guildies. I can't really think of a better word for it, and that's what people often say, so it slips out sometimes. I've never liked the way it sounds though. It sounds less good-natured than "noob," though, so when I meant to sound particularly negative it seems to work.
riz on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
The funny things is that the arena drakes never generated this much QQ and they are essentially the same principle. Award people at the top tier every season.
I agree with this principle but I don't agree with the fact that 3 drake 10 man sartharion and Maly 6 min were balanced around 25 man gear.
Different principle. If it were the same principle, you'd get a different kind of protodrake for doing it after 3.1 than doing it pre 3.1
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
KHHAAAAN: WTF is with you people? Are you all huge fans of TLC again for some reason? We back in the late '90's again and nobody told me? Let "scrub" die, it's been dying for years and years, why bring it back all of a sudden?
Yeeeeeaaah. I blame my guildies. I can't really think of a better word for it, and that's what people often say, so it slips out sometimes. I've never liked the way it sounds though. It sounds less good-natured than "noob," though, so when I meant to sound particularly negative it seems to work.
We call them mouth-breathers. I prefer douche-nozzle.
The funny things is that the arena drakes never generated this much QQ and they are essentially the same principle. Award people at the top tier every season.
I agree with this principle but I don't agree with the fact that 3 drake 10 man sartharion and Maly 6 min were balanced around 25 man gear.
Different principle. If it were the same principle, you'd get a different kind of protodrake for doing it after 3.1 than doing it pre 3.1
Yeah, you will get a different color protodrake (or something) for being in the top tier next raid "season." There was never a way to farm for a merciless glad drake in S4.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
The funny things is that the arena drakes never generated this much QQ and they are essentially the same principle. Award people at the top tier every season.
I agree with this principle but I don't agree with the fact that 3 drake 10 man sartharion and Maly 6 min were balanced around 25 man gear.
Different principle. If it were the same principle, you'd get a different kind of protodrake for doing it after 3.1 than doing it pre 3.1
Yeah, you will get a different color protodrake (or something) for being in the top tier next raid "season." There was never a way to farm for a merciless glad drake in S4.
Thanks for replying with what I would have had I seen the response sooner.
Same principle.
You don't win a belt & title for beating the guy that used to be champion. That guy sucks, that's why he isn't the champ anymore.
As has been mentioned, I think the main issue was that 10 man 3D was overtuned a little. I have no doubt that it would be doable using 10 man only gear, but it would have been much more difficult than 25 man 3D is with 25 man gear.
What I don't get is why people all feel so entitled to everything all of a sudden. Blizzard recognized that the entry level raiding and progression was too difficult in BC, and they dumbed it down so much that people were succesfully completing Naxx pugs less than a month after the expansion hit. They listened to people's suggestions of allowing 10 man raids and catered to them. Epics which were at one point a symbol of at least some level of skill are now easily obtained through BGs and PVE. The entire game has been adjusted around casual players on a level not even comparable to previous WoW.
The one thing that Blizzard left for the "hardcore" (really not necessarily hardcore even, just good enough to not suck) players is a set of achievements leading to a mount. The mount is slightly faster than other mounts, but has absolutely no value as far as raiding or PVP is concerned, it is purely cosmetic and a reward for going above and beyond the raiding bare minimums. The achievement points themselves will still be obtainable (for those who really go for points) and the cosmetic mount reward for playing well will not be.
I don't know how much more you want as a casual player or a terrible player or a decent player in a guild below your skill level. Blizzard has made the game so easy that I see scrubs in straight blues/greens with Betrayer of Humanity (true story). I know it doesn't affect me personally if this poor player comes back in a year with the new badge loot and PVP welfare epics and completes these achievements, but honestly if you don't have even trivial little cosmetic things like mounts as some sort of incentive for being a good player, I think that is being greedy as a lower tier player. Blizzard catered to the 70% or whatever of players that couldn't clear Kara until a year after release with this expansion by making Naxx so easy allowing you to get all this BIS gear and feeling some accomplishment. Why is it that when they turn around and cater to the top 5% and all that they offer them is a cosmetic mount that you again pull out the sadface and entitlement card and start the crying on forums about it?
I guess we should stop allowing people to run low level instances because it trivializes it. There's no reason why people can't complete the instances from RFC to Naxxaramas with level appropriate groups for their achievements.
Did I do that right?
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I guess we should stop allowing people to run low level instances because it trivializes it. There's no reason why people can't complete the instances from RFC to Naxxaramas with level appropriate groups for their achievements.
Did I do that right?
No, you didn't do it right, seeing as the achievements are still there for people to complete when they like.
You can still do the same instances, for the same gear, for the same achievements, in order to progress to the next tier of raiding. None of that changes whatsoever.
All that you don't get is a mount which is a reward for players being good enough to accomplish those things in the first six months of the content being available. A mount, which has no use whatsoever asides from being something that says, "hey this player is pretty good, they were able to complete a difficult task before having outgeared it".
I guess we should stop allowing people to run low level instances because it trivializes it. There's no reason why people can't complete the instances from RFC to Naxxaramas with level appropriate groups for their achievements.
Did I do that right?
No, you didn't do it right, seeing as the achievements are still there for people to complete when they like.
What if that rogue wanted his defias set?
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
You can still do the same instances, for the same gear, for the same achievements, in order to progress to the next tier of raiding. None of that changes whatsoever.
All that you don't get is a mount which is a reward for players being good enough to accomplish those things in the first six months of the content being available. A mount, which has no use whatsoever asides from being something that says, "hey this player is pretty good, they were able to complete a difficult task before having outgeared it".
And what if said players still complete it without being outgeared? No one is seeing the large picture. This is a cop-out because people are motherfucking lazy, and some people feel elitist about shit.
Those lazy people? Yeah it's both the players and the programmers.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
0
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
From what I've read, the complaints are stemming from two things:
1. This is a fairly-new and as yet inconsistent practice on the devs part. Before the ZA bear issue, they'd never done this "available for a limited time only!" thing in PvE. Worse than that, their reasoning for doing it is specious. The fact that older content (and the rewards they offer) are trivialized by new gear/talents/etc is not something new; people've been running old content that they outgear since the Vanilla days. If they simply turned off old instances after a certain point and held to that rule, then I don't think this issue would be as much of a surprise to people. As it is, it seems fairly arbitrary. Their other reasoning is "well, we want rare items to stay rare". Again, flawed logic. Plenty of items that used to be rare are now plentiful because people can run old content more easily now. See: Baron's Mount, ZG tiger and raptor, etc. "Well getting those didn't take skill, just luck". I disagree. Those instances took just as much skill at the time they were relevant as the Naxx achievements do today.
2. Why should anything in this (or any) game be limited to a select few? The entire concept of people feeling that they "deserve" something because they are more skilled in a videogame is foreign to me. Make no mistake: the term "entitlement" goes both ways. For every casual who feels entitled to epics, you have a hardcore who feels entitled to keeping them out of the hands of casuals. It's the "I shouldn't have to share my toys" kind of outlook that is really bizarre, at least in my opinion.
I understand that people want to be compensated for their efforts, but what I don't understand is why some people care if other people get those same rewards more easily later on. Like, how does it diminish the value of that item for you? I've got a few rare items on my characters, or at least they were rare before more people got their hands on them. But I still get my full enjoyment from them; it's not like "well shit, Adam and Melissa both have what I have, now I have to get rid of it".
I just don't get that mindset at all and I never will.
New mechanic: Upon zoning in to the Obsidian Sanctum, Naxxramas, and the Eye of Eternity, all gear with an ilevel higher than 226 will become disabled and provide your character with no stats.
Hey they could even do that to separate 10 and 25 man progression.
Apparently idling on your plagued protodrake in Krasus Landing is really important and only the really skilled (cough) should get to be able to do this. It is certainly what I will be doing with mine when I get mine in the next couple of weeks.
Honestly, if they hadn't messed up and made the 25-man raids easier than the 10-man ones in a lot of cases, you wouldn't see people getting pissed off so much. But the fact that if you have 25-mans open to you, you can go to an easier raid, and get loot that 'trivializes' 10-man raids, and then to be told that you are somehow more worthy of an achievement than those of us who are doing 10-man raids with 10-man loot? What the hell?
martini on
I raised the wall. And I will be the one to knock it down.
New mechanic: Upon zoning in to the Obsidian Sanctum, Naxxramas, and the Eye of Eternity, all gear with an ilevel higher than 226 will become disabled and provide your character with no stats.
Hey they could even do that to separate 10 and 25 man progression.
I take it you'd be pissed off if I zerged 10Sarth3D after ulduar is released and got the drake you wanted?
Also, in the history of raid progression when has stats been anything more than this:
Tier X:
+1000 hp, +500AP
Tier X+1:
+1025 hp, +550AP
Tier X+2:
+1070 hp, +575AP, +1000000000 haste
So, if I can do it with slightly more health than I did before, that doesn't really detract from the difficulty of the encounter whatsoever. Unlike the ZA bear achievement where 10 levels and a whole lot more stats definitely would.
Unless, of course, we're seeing 10 levels worth of armor and stats difference between Naxx gear and Ulduar gear.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
0
UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
On the one hand, it can be argued that Blizz's policy on vanity mount drops has been inconsistent since they decided to take away the ZA bear. This is true, but a whole lot of other things have changed as well (including guaranteed vanity mount drops becoming a much more common part of the game) so I think a shift on this policy makes sense. For this reason I think it's a good thing that the Sarth + 3 mounts are sticking around.
On the other hand, I think Blizzard has been fairly consistant about keeping 310% speed flying mounts something special, and requiring a much higher than normal amount of work/skill to obtain one. For this reason I think it makes sense to keep them as a reward for achievements on the current hardest content in the game, much as they are/were a reward for being one of the very top arena teams.
I'm kind of in the middle when it comes to hardcore/casual these days... my guild has cleared most of the current raid content (which is a first, we were barely into SSC with 4-5 pug spots per run at the end of TBC), but we're nowhere close to being able to get a lot of the Glory of the Raider achievements. I do think it would be nice if there was an option for casuals to get a 310% speed proto-drake though. Something that doesn't require the same large group/organized weekly time investment/skill, but still needs some hard work over time.
From what I've read, the complaints are stemming from two things:
2. Why should anything in this (or any) game be limited to a select few? The entire concept of people feeling that they "deserve" something because they are more skilled in a videogame is foreign to me. Make no mistake: the term "entitlement" goes both ways. For every casual who feels entitled to epics, you have a hardcore who feels entitled to keeping them out of the hands of casuals. It's the "I shouldn't have to share my toys" kind of outlook that is really bizarre, at least in my opinion.
I understand that people want to be compensated for their efforts, but what I don't understand is why some people care if other people get those same rewards more easily later on. Like, how does it diminish the value of that item for you? I've got a few rare items on my characters, or at least they were rare before more people got their hands on them. But I still get my full enjoyment from them; it's not like "well shit, Adam and Melissa both have what I have, now I have to get rid of it".
Is it really that hard to understand? It's conspicuous consumption. Caring what other people think about you is a pretty basic human trait, and one of the ways we attempt to inflate our status among our peers is by having things that are exclusive to some degree. Does a dude driving a porsche really need a porsche to get around? No, but a porsche is still pretty cool because most people don't have one.
It's the same for all rare items: if you have one, it's a cool novelty that differentiates you from your peers. If everyone has one it doesn't mean shit. The whole idea behind the PvP drakes, and now apparently the raid drakes, is to reward people who are in the top tier with a neat way of differentiating themselves.
edit: also, it was much, much easier to get a ZA bear a couple tiers of content after ZA was released, to the point that raids were literally able to carry a 10th man through the content for the purpose of selling them a bear.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
It doesn't need to be 10 levels, more HP will make Sarth's breath easier to take and more dps will limit or completely remove the time that the multipliers are active, which is what makes the encounter difficult. Also while the stat increase for 13 ilevels might seem small on a single piece of armor when you add that up for all the slots is becomes pretty significant.
I'd just like to reiterate that we're talking about a mount with no real value in any sort of PVE or PVP progression. These achievements don't give you some legendary equipment that is going to be the best available until level 90 and the unfortunate (or bad) guilds that weren't able to complete Glory of the Raider are going to be at a severe disadvantage to everybody who has. It's a neat little thing that sets you apart as being good enough to complete it before having T8 or T9.
Gladiator Drakes as mentioned are the same way, they don't really do anything special but are just a way of setting somebody apart.
This game doesn't need to be like the special olympics where everybody wins no matter how terrible and slow they were getting to the finish line. Having a random perk or two that doesn't really give any advantage (title, tabard, mount) isn't hurting all the scrub players whatsoever, they are free to progress at their own leisure.
Peryton on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited February 2009
Again, 10 man ulduar gear being used in 10 man sarth is about as devious as using 25 naxx gear in 10 man sarth.
The only 'disparity' will be people using 25 ulduar gear on 10 man sarth/naxx.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
In a game where your goal is to get endgame and to get all the neat little things associated with that, it's kind of an asshole thing to do to go "oh hope you can do it in 2 weeks before we arbitrarily pull it out under your nose for no real reason."
And no, because Jimmy the asshole whined in some forum how he's not as cool anymore isn't a real reason. And if you think I'm stupid or wrong, chances are you're Jimmy the asshole.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Posts
Hoping I get the green one from the oracle egg this week.
The standing around because you couldn't get a group wasn't a better thing. It was a much, much worse thing. It made the game fucking unplayable. And the only way to get around it was to spend hours and hours farming to be able to be part of a group for an hour or two. Even as a raider during vanilla wow, I wasn't spending anywhere near the amount of time farming that I was in FFXI.
I can't understand the thought process that makes you think that was a better culture then WoWs. The epeen is annoying but anyone can play the fucking game.
Edit: Okay now that you posted that, I have to ask why you give a shit that people want to show off. Relax.
You made a statement saying that it was a good thing about FFXI was the lack of people standing around showing off e-peen. Don't be surprised when people call you out because the culture of FFXI was fucked in the opposite direction.
When you praise something that comes from a fucked up situation, it is material to the discussion.
> Dilbert: I didn't have any accurate numbers so I just made up this one.
> Studies have shown that accurate numbers aren't any more useful than the
> ones you make up.
>
> Pointy-Haired-Boss: How many studies showed that?
>
> Dilbert: Eighty-seven.
probably works the same for percentages.
"Look at me! I have a full set of ravenscale! LOL what's that? Blackened Iron mail, lol nice replica newb!"
KHHAAAAN: WTF is with you people? Are you all huge fans of TLC again for some reason? We back in the late '90's again and nobody told me? Let "scrub" die, it's been dying for years and years, why bring it back all of a sudden?
I totally deleted my egg on the PTR because I couldn't bear the injustice of getting the green drake that must have been waiting inside.
Yeeeeeaaah. I blame my guildies. I can't really think of a better word for it, and that's what people often say, so it slips out sometimes. I've never liked the way it sounds though. It sounds less good-natured than "noob," though, so when I meant to sound particularly negative it seems to work.
Different principle. If it were the same principle, you'd get a different kind of protodrake for doing it after 3.1 than doing it pre 3.1
We call them mouth-breathers. I prefer douche-nozzle.
Yeah, you will get a different color protodrake (or something) for being in the top tier next raid "season." There was never a way to farm for a merciless glad drake in S4.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Thanks for replying with what I would have had I seen the response sooner.
Same principle.
You don't win a belt & title for beating the guy that used to be champion. That guy sucks, that's why he isn't the champ anymore.
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
The fishing hat! The one thing (other than the last two crocs) that I've NEVER gotten from that god-forsaken daily since it started.
The RNG is a horrible, evil thing.
Wasn't there a guy here who got the deathcharger on the PTR or WotLK beta?
Yes and he posted here. The schadenfreude levels were off the damn charts.
What I don't get is why people all feel so entitled to everything all of a sudden. Blizzard recognized that the entry level raiding and progression was too difficult in BC, and they dumbed it down so much that people were succesfully completing Naxx pugs less than a month after the expansion hit. They listened to people's suggestions of allowing 10 man raids and catered to them. Epics which were at one point a symbol of at least some level of skill are now easily obtained through BGs and PVE. The entire game has been adjusted around casual players on a level not even comparable to previous WoW.
The one thing that Blizzard left for the "hardcore" (really not necessarily hardcore even, just good enough to not suck) players is a set of achievements leading to a mount. The mount is slightly faster than other mounts, but has absolutely no value as far as raiding or PVP is concerned, it is purely cosmetic and a reward for going above and beyond the raiding bare minimums. The achievement points themselves will still be obtainable (for those who really go for points) and the cosmetic mount reward for playing well will not be.
I don't know how much more you want as a casual player or a terrible player or a decent player in a guild below your skill level. Blizzard has made the game so easy that I see scrubs in straight blues/greens with Betrayer of Humanity (true story). I know it doesn't affect me personally if this poor player comes back in a year with the new badge loot and PVP welfare epics and completes these achievements, but honestly if you don't have even trivial little cosmetic things like mounts as some sort of incentive for being a good player, I think that is being greedy as a lower tier player. Blizzard catered to the 70% or whatever of players that couldn't clear Kara until a year after release with this expansion by making Naxx so easy allowing you to get all this BIS gear and feeling some accomplishment. Why is it that when they turn around and cater to the top 5% and all that they offer them is a cosmetic mount that you again pull out the sadface and entitlement card and start the crying on forums about it?
Did I do that right?
No, you didn't do it right, seeing as the achievements are still there for people to complete when they like.
All that you don't get is a mount which is a reward for players being good enough to accomplish those things in the first six months of the content being available. A mount, which has no use whatsoever asides from being something that says, "hey this player is pretty good, they were able to complete a difficult task before having outgeared it".
What if that rogue wanted his defias set?
And what if said players still complete it without being outgeared? No one is seeing the large picture. This is a cop-out because people are motherfucking lazy, and some people feel elitist about shit.
Those lazy people? Yeah it's both the players and the programmers.
1. This is a fairly-new and as yet inconsistent practice on the devs part. Before the ZA bear issue, they'd never done this "available for a limited time only!" thing in PvE. Worse than that, their reasoning for doing it is specious. The fact that older content (and the rewards they offer) are trivialized by new gear/talents/etc is not something new; people've been running old content that they outgear since the Vanilla days. If they simply turned off old instances after a certain point and held to that rule, then I don't think this issue would be as much of a surprise to people. As it is, it seems fairly arbitrary. Their other reasoning is "well, we want rare items to stay rare". Again, flawed logic. Plenty of items that used to be rare are now plentiful because people can run old content more easily now. See: Baron's Mount, ZG tiger and raptor, etc. "Well getting those didn't take skill, just luck". I disagree. Those instances took just as much skill at the time they were relevant as the Naxx achievements do today.
2. Why should anything in this (or any) game be limited to a select few? The entire concept of people feeling that they "deserve" something because they are more skilled in a videogame is foreign to me. Make no mistake: the term "entitlement" goes both ways. For every casual who feels entitled to epics, you have a hardcore who feels entitled to keeping them out of the hands of casuals. It's the "I shouldn't have to share my toys" kind of outlook that is really bizarre, at least in my opinion.
I understand that people want to be compensated for their efforts, but what I don't understand is why some people care if other people get those same rewards more easily later on. Like, how does it diminish the value of that item for you? I've got a few rare items on my characters, or at least they were rare before more people got their hands on them. But I still get my full enjoyment from them; it's not like "well shit, Adam and Melissa both have what I have, now I have to get rid of it".
I just don't get that mindset at all and I never will.
Hey they could even do that to separate 10 and 25 man progression.
I take it you'd be pissed off if I zerged 10Sarth3D after ulduar is released and got the drake you wanted?
Also, in the history of raid progression when has stats been anything more than this:
Tier X:
+1000 hp, +500AP
Tier X+1:
+1025 hp, +550AP
Tier X+2:
+1070 hp, +575AP, +1000000000 haste
So, if I can do it with slightly more health than I did before, that doesn't really detract from the difficulty of the encounter whatsoever. Unlike the ZA bear achievement where 10 levels and a whole lot more stats definitely would.
Unless, of course, we're seeing 10 levels worth of armor and stats difference between Naxx gear and Ulduar gear.
On the other hand, I think Blizzard has been fairly consistant about keeping 310% speed flying mounts something special, and requiring a much higher than normal amount of work/skill to obtain one. For this reason I think it makes sense to keep them as a reward for achievements on the current hardest content in the game, much as they are/were a reward for being one of the very top arena teams.
I'm kind of in the middle when it comes to hardcore/casual these days... my guild has cleared most of the current raid content (which is a first, we were barely into SSC with 4-5 pug spots per run at the end of TBC), but we're nowhere close to being able to get a lot of the Glory of the Raider achievements. I do think it would be nice if there was an option for casuals to get a 310% speed proto-drake though. Something that doesn't require the same large group/organized weekly time investment/skill, but still needs some hard work over time.
Something like a violet proto-drake.
Is it really that hard to understand? It's conspicuous consumption. Caring what other people think about you is a pretty basic human trait, and one of the ways we attempt to inflate our status among our peers is by having things that are exclusive to some degree. Does a dude driving a porsche really need a porsche to get around? No, but a porsche is still pretty cool because most people don't have one.
It's the same for all rare items: if you have one, it's a cool novelty that differentiates you from your peers. If everyone has one it doesn't mean shit. The whole idea behind the PvP drakes, and now apparently the raid drakes, is to reward people who are in the top tier with a neat way of differentiating themselves.
edit: also, it was much, much easier to get a ZA bear a couple tiers of content after ZA was released, to the point that raids were literally able to carry a 10th man through the content for the purpose of selling them a bear.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Gladiator Drakes as mentioned are the same way, they don't really do anything special but are just a way of setting somebody apart.
This game doesn't need to be like the special olympics where everybody wins no matter how terrible and slow they were getting to the finish line. Having a random perk or two that doesn't really give any advantage (title, tabard, mount) isn't hurting all the scrub players whatsoever, they are free to progress at their own leisure.
The only 'disparity' will be people using 25 ulduar gear on 10 man sarth/naxx.
And no, because Jimmy the asshole whined in some forum how he's not as cool anymore isn't a real reason. And if you think I'm stupid or wrong, chances are you're Jimmy the asshole.