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The judge is in trouble with the law
Judge Joe Brown
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
This is in Canada!! Please keep this in mind.
The story is too arduous to tell, and frankly, it's so upsetting to me that it's hard to recount, so I'll keep it short.
On New Year's Eve, a bouncer at a bar, after a small argument, called the police on me and told them that I'd pulled a knife on him. I didn't, but was put in jail overnight, given instructions not to go downtown until a hearing was held, and charged (is that the right word?) with possession of a concealed weapon, uttering death threats, and attempt to do bodily hard with a weapon. I was made to promise to appear in court for Feb 9th, and let go.
I've never been even remotely in trouble with the law, and I'd very much like not to get my family involved (I'm an adult, thank jesus). What's going to happen during this hearing? I'm told I'm not going to make a plea at this time, but given very little information beyond that. I've put this out of my mind until now, but I've decided that I'm going to see a lawyer, but I thought I'd try for some input here so that I can be a bit more prepared.
Since the guy completely fabricated the story, I have no idea what he told the police, but I'm assuming he's not going to show up at the trial/hearing. If that's the case, am I scott free?
How do I obtain disclosure (police officer's notes, the bouncer's statement, etc)? I'd very much like to see what he's said so I can properly defend myself. I'm not TOO worried... but nervous nonetheless, and I'd like to be as prepared as possible.
Anyone got any advice for me, beyond seeing a lawyer? If I've left anything out that you feel is important, I'll suck it up and explain.
Thanks in advance guys, you've always helped in a tight squeeze and this one feels tighter than most.
The story is too arduous to tell, and frankly, it's so upsetting to me that it's hard to recount, so I'll keep it short.
On New Year's Eve, a bouncer at a bar, after a small argument, called the police on me and told them that I'd pulled a knife on him. I didn't, but was put in jail overnight, given instructions not to go downtown until a hearing was held, and charged (is that the right word?) with possession of a concealed weapon, uttering death threats, and attempt to do bodily hard with a weapon. I was made to promise to appear in court for Feb 9th, and let go.
I've never been even remotely in trouble with the law, and I'd very much like not to get my family involved (I'm an adult, thank jesus). What's going to happen during this hearing? I'm told I'm not going to make a plea at this time, but given very little information beyond that. I've put this out of my mind until now, but I've decided that I'm going to see a lawyer, but I thought I'd try for some input here so that I can be a bit more prepared.
Since the guy completely fabricated the story, I have no idea what he told the police, but I'm assuming he's not going to show up at the trial/hearing. If that's the case, am I scott free?
How do I obtain disclosure (police officer's notes, the bouncer's statement, etc)? I'd very much like to see what he's said so I can properly defend myself. I'm not TOO worried... but nervous nonetheless, and I'd like to be as prepared as possible.
Anyone got any advice for me, beyond seeing a lawyer? If I've left anything out that you feel is important, I'll suck it up and explain.
Thanks in advance guys, you've always helped in a tight squeeze and this one feels tighter than most.
Judge Joe Brown on
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And if you did have one, and they found it, you may be screwed at least for that particular charge (though if the rest are thrown out for some reason they may not bother).
Now I have to look up if that's going to give me a criminal record. Oy vey
If you DID have a knife and they police DID find it, you're probably getting at least one charge.
The hearing is going to be a preliminary enquiry, where the prosecutor will have to show that he has enough evidence to proceed with a trial. If the judge decides that he doesn't have enough evidence, then the process ends. Don't get your hopes up though; the standard for these things is very low.
Definitely get yourself a lawyer. That should be step #1.
As for the the knife, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that in most parts of Canada, the knife law is pretty open. The law can consider any knife a weapon based on your intent and actions. The fact that it's a swiss army knife definitely helps, but it doesn't preclude you from getting charged.
Get a lawyer, hope the court recognizes the fact that you've never been in trouble before, or that the bouncer just plain doesn't show up.
The guy can't possibly show up, because he's lied through his teeth. I'm banking pretty hard on this, but I think he'd be pretty fucked in the head to show up. What will this mean for me? Will they still attempt prosecution?
They won't for any of the death threat charges or things like that, but it's very possible that the Concealed Weapon charge may still stand.
Oh, very important, dress nice, be polite, and never ever speak out of turn.
It's too late for that, isn't it!
It was in my jacket.
And the correct answer is that it's a very small multi-tool that you keep in your jacket.
The thing is, as EskimoDave has presented it (and it WILL be presented just like that), it's a trick question. The intent is to make you concede that you did something wrong by carrying a multi-tool into a bar. An apologetic answer like "I forgot it was in there" will just make things worse. You're well within your rights to carry a multi-tool (so long as any included blades are under a certain size -- it's 3" in Ontario, not sure about elsewhere), so don't concede wrongdoing.
If your account of the events is accurate (and there's no reason to think you'd lie to us), you probably don't have anything to worry about. Any video footage of the evidence would exonerate you, and any witnesses will likely back you up (nobody likes bouncers anyway), so it's his word against yours. Given that he claimed you pulled a large hunting knife on him, but the police found only a tiny Victorinox, that's already a big blow to his credibility.
Obviously follow your lawyers' advice, but I wouldn't lose much sleep.
I can't speak for him, but it's actually quite possible the bouncer just said that, because knives are taken very seriously at bars. Well, any weapon, really, but saying "gun" would go too far, knife is a lot less serious but really brings attention by the authorities.
I've had a knife pulled on me before (switchblade) and the cops tooled the dude.
Oh, no doubt. I just know that it's a question that will come up, and it's a question that he better have a damn good answer to if he wants his side to be taken seriously.
Also:
So, in wonderful common-law fashion, a swiss army knife would be a weapon if you were trying to threaten the bouncer with it, or if the judge, after consulting precedent and/or other laws, decided it was designed for threatening or killing people.
It's too late for this but if anyone ever called the police infront of me I would immediately pick up my phone, dial 911 and say they struck me. At the very least they will be spending the night in jail too.
What? This is awful, awful advice.
@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!
But still, lawyer. Talk. Now.
If you truly did not pull the knife, the lawyer will probably grill the guy on what the knife looked like. Did the police take it? Inform the lawyer. Tell him everything you know.
Aren't switchblades flat out illegal in a lot of places?
In Manitoba (I believe Canada-wide as well) any folding knife that is opened with one hand is technically illegal.
1. What did you get into an argument about with the bouncer at the bar?
2. Did you tell the bouncer that you had a knife (any knife?)
3. Did you threaten the bouncer...at all?
4. Do you know the name of the police officer(s) at arrived at the scene?
5. Have you been contacted by the DA or police and offered any sort of plea bargain?
6. Did you recieved a copy of anything filed against you?
Regardless, you need a lawyer ASAP. Even if you do plead out, that plea you agree to could have a serious, far-reaching effect on your future, especially with the charges you're faced with. Even if the bouncer did lie, if the magistrate/judge believes him over you, you're in trouble and facing jail time.
So yeah, Lawyer-Up
Did you show anyone else the knife that evening? Did the bouncer see the knife after the police arrived and they found it? As in, could he describe it? Were you with friends, or did anyone else see everything that happened?
Also: Get a lawyer.
A swiss army knife is not a weapon unless modified, but taking it out at a bar or waving it around does not bode well, especially if you did happen to be in an argument at the time. Get a lawyer and get the story straight.
Your word is just as good as his.
There has to be intent for a weapons charge, but unfortunately it boils down to percieved threat. I can carry a katana on the c-train and if no one worries, theres no problem, but if I threatend someone with a dull two inch paring knife, then I'm up shit creek. Buddy claiming perceived threat actually takes it a huge leap forward in terms of criminal seriousness.
I'm really surprised about the 'concealed weapon' charge, that is usually only a firearm or deliberate weapon charge, like a hunting knife or a rambo knife. Folding knives, even the one hand sliders, are generally considered utility. If you honestly never took it out of your pocket, they are going to have a very hard time proving the charge, because, with few exceptions, it isn't actually a weapon until its perceived as one.
I dont know how polygraphs work out here in Canada, but if you're in the clear, makes sense to offer yourself up to one. Might be a testing fee, but it may be worth it in the long run. Discuss your options.
Also, if you actually did utter threats, death or otherwise, or made any remarks like 'You! I cut you!' or some such, then you're fuckedness re the weapons charges goes up exponentially. So hopefully you didn't do any of that.
Yeah so how about using the damned reporting system then
Seriously, getting sick of seeing posts like yours just as much as TheStig's.
Also, get a fucking lawyer and don't tell any lies or omit any facts, whether you're talking to the lawyer, the cops or the judge. You had a multitool, and it had a small blade in it, but you did not threaten the bouncer, reveal it to him, or attempt to use it in any way. Point to the fact that the bouncer's description of the multitool is completely inaccurate, and represents what you feel to be a fabrication of events. Given a lack of evidence, anything you can use to weaken the bouncer's testimony by making it appear to be inconsistent or inaccurate is good. The presence of the multitool is bad, but not unrecoverable-bad.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
If you have a lawyer, he should be doing most of the legwork for you. Otherwise, get a copy of the arrest report and find witnesses. You don't want to go into court and have it be a "he said-he said" argument, you want to have people corroborating your story. You should be able to get a copy of the arrest report by going to the police department or municipal court and asking for a copy of it (call both and find out which is appropriate in Canada).
Some important facts here are going to be: What did you say to the bouncer? Did you bring out your pocket-knife at all, in any shape or form? How did the bouncer know about the knife?
Your lawyer is going to know the case history to be able to tell you whether or not your knife is even legally considered a knife. It doesn't matter what you can logically infer from the statute, it matters how the courts in your jurisdiction have ruled on it in the past.
If the bouncer does not show up for the hearing, then you should press to have the charges dropped. At most he will have three chances to try his case against you before the charges are dropped with prejudice. I can tell you from experience that cases like these often just fade away, because the person pressing charges does not care. That said, you should still treat it seriously and talk to lawyer about this. If you can't afford a lawyer, ask at the municipal court/police department for information about pro-bono legal advice and the public defender's office.
EDIT: I should reiterate what Pheezer said: Do not lie to your lawyer. Do not omit any facts. Your lawyer can't help you if he does not have all of the facts, even the ones that you think might hurt your case. Give full disclosure to your lawyer.
Maybe they've changed them since i last owned one but you can't "pull" a swiss army knife on anyone, the blade takes too long to get out.
and there's no mistaking the blades either, it's like the size difference between a horse's cock and Simon Cowell's.