I like it, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like the show that Wedon wants it to be.
This was basically my problem with the pilot episode. It doesn't feel like a Whedon show right now.
I get the feeling that he's not really passionate about this IP and is doing it firstly for a paycheck and secondly to set up a good show for Eliza before possibly moving on to something more interesting like RDM while the show continues to run its course.
It felt pretty "Whedon" to me. As previously mentioned, it has a soul, which sets it apart from generic FOX drama #14.
More specifically, instead of using the premise merely for dumb episodic fun, it appears to be tackling its moral implications and its consequences on the show's characters head-on.
Sure, it lacked Whedon's trademark witty banter, but that may yet come. For now, I don't mind that he's trying to strike a more serious tone.
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I guess "soul" is kind of a vague, subjective thing, a more than the sum of its parts thing. But on a more considered level, as I said, I think it explores moral consequences and consequences on its characters--it's about more than mindless entertainment.
I suppose I can see the point about there not being the same camaraderie (between the cast members) as Whedon's other shows, but that's the nature of the beast when you have half the cast in a gray area between villain and protagonist, and possibly at odds in purpose with the rest.
But I really liked everything involving Langdon's (Echo's handler's) relationship with the rest of the cast, especially Echo herself.
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I guess "soul" is kind of a vague, subjective thing, a more than the sum of its parts thing. But on a more considered level, as I said, I think it explores moral consequences and consequences on its characters--it's about more than mindless entertainment.
I suppose I can see the point about there not being the same camaraderie (between the cast members) as Whedon's other shows, but that's the nature of the beast when you have half the cast in a gray area between villain and protagonist, and possibly at odds in purpose with the rest.
But I really liked everything involving Langdon's (Echo's handler's) relationship with the rest of the cast, especially Echo herself.
I don't know, deleting a woman's freewill so she can be some rich bitch's Vegas fucktoy seems a little past gray area to me.
I guess "soul" is kind of a vague, subjective thing, a more than the sum of its parts thing. But on a more considered level, as I said, I think it explores moral consequences and consequences on its characters--it's about more than mindless entertainment.
I suppose I can see the point about there not being the same camaraderie (between the cast members) as Whedon's other shows, but that's the nature of the beast when you have half the cast in a gray area between villain and protagonist, and possibly at odds in purpose with the rest.
But I really liked everything involving Langdon's (Echo's handler's) relationship with the rest of the cast, especially Echo herself.
I don't know, deleting a woman's freewill so she can be some rich bitch's Vegas fucktoy seems a little past gray area to me.
Not as much so if she agreed to have all this done to her--guess it depends whether you consider this kind of high-end pimping "gray area". We don't really know the details, but the first scene suggests that she did sign up to be in the Dollhouse, to get out of some kind of trouble.
But I'd agree they're pretty despicable. Preying on people in trouble and essentially putting them into indentured servitude, in order to use their bodies to make money, and all that. Just not like, mustache-twirling black-and-white mine is an evil laugh villainy.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
edited February 2009
I don't know if they even tell their subjects the whole story.
By "soul" I mean that the show seems like it has a story to tell. It wasn't trying to sell me a chain of wow moments paced by the commercial breaks, and the arcs it proposes seem like they're going to progress naturally.
See there's discussion rather than outright dismissal, that's 7 notches above the average thing produced by Fox
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
Whedon shows have never struck me as having "soul"
They've been vaguely clever, paced well, clearly witty and purposefully written, but they've never once felt real to me
The dialogue and the situations and the way that often times he'd have characters do something specifically out of character to surprise the audience (this happens a lot in Angel) always felt artificial and constructed. Even his run on Astonishing X-Men suffered from this
It's part of the reason I wasn't enthusiastic about this show to begin with (the other part being the premise)
The dialogue and the situations and the way that often times he'd have characters do something specifically out of character to surprise the audience (this happens a lot in Angel)
Hmmm...
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
You know, now that I think about it, Joss Whedon's female characters are sort of creepy
I mean Buffy was alright I guess, beyond the obvious "I have a fetish for teenage girls kicking ass" thing (I'm not sure though I never watched Buffy), but Fred from Angel and River from Firefly both had that plus a severe personality disorder that made them socially awkward and in River's case, almost childlike
And now with Dollhouse we have a whole show centered around women with no personalities or any real knowledge whatsoever
But maybe I'm reading too much into this, I don't know
You know, now that I think about it, Joss Whedon's female characters are sort of creepy
I mean Buffy was alright I guess, beyond the obvious "I have a fetish for teenage girls kicking ass" thing (I'm not sure though I never watched Buffy), but Fred from Angel and River from Firefly both had that plus a severe personality disorder that made them socially awkward and in River's case, almost childlike
And now with Dollhouse we have a whole show centered around women with no personalities or any real knowledge whatsoever
But maybe I'm reading too much into this, I don't know
...huh?
Two female characters out of dozens are playing on a common archtype. I find Fred and River very different but I admit to some similarities between River and empty Echo but I suspect that has something to do with the very short time he spent writing for River. There were ideas surrounding the character which he wasn't given time to explore.
Josh is generally pretty good at having a wide spectrum of female roles. You can lob some accusations of sexism at him (Space Whores!) but that's just because he seem interested in discussing sexuality rather than merely exploit it.
You know, now that I think about it, Joss Whedon's female characters are sort of creepy
I mean Buffy was alright I guess, beyond the obvious "I have a fetish for teenage girls kicking ass" thing (I'm not sure though I never watched Buffy), but Fred from Angel and River from Firefly both had that plus a severe personality disorder that made them socially awkward and in River's case, almost childlike
And now with Dollhouse we have a whole show centered around women with no personalities or any real knowledge whatsoever
But maybe I'm reading too much into this, I don't know
Joss seems to be more into girls than women, if that makes sense
I like it, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like the show that Wedon wants it to be.
This was basically my problem with the pilot episode. It doesn't feel like a Whedon show right now.
Hm... interesting. Why do you think that is? Not enough humor I guess?
Ugh, if that sounds really sarcastic or facetious, it isn't.
Essentially, but even further than that, it boils down to the dialogue. Whedon sets himself apart with his writing, and there was very little to the pilot episode that felt to me like he'd written it.
Whedon likes to play on expectations, and turn them upside down, usually for the sake of humor, but not always. He'll put his characters into a tough situation where you expect they'll fight and overcome, and instead they run away before the fight begins. Or he'll put two people into a stand-off with guns drawn, and when one begins to pontificate, the protaganist will just pull the trigger. Sometimes it can be as low key as a couple lines of dialogue, like Mal asking if Jayne wants to run the ship, to which Jayne replies yes. Not something Mal was expecting when he was trying to make a point about being in charge.
This episode didn't have any moments like that, and if it did, I didn't catch them.
Essentially, but even further than that, it boils down to the dialogue. Whedon sets himself apart with his writing, and there was very little to the pilot episode that felt to me like he'd written it.
Whedon likes to play on expectations, and turn them upside down, usually for the sake of humor, but not always. He'll put his characters into a tough situation where you expect they'll fight and overcome, and instead they run away before the fight begins. Or he'll put two people into a stand-off with guns drawn, and when one begins to pontificate, the protaganist will just pull the trigger. Sometimes it can be as low key as a couple lines of dialogue, like Mal asking if Jayne wants to run the ship, to which Jayne replies yes. Not something Mal was expecting when he was trying to make a point about being in charge.
This episode didn't have any moments like that, and if it did, I didn't catch them.
There was the line about Slates, but that fell flat for me.
You know, now that I think about it, Joss Whedon's female characters are sort of creepy
I mean Buffy was alright I guess, beyond the obvious "I have a fetish for teenage girls kicking ass" thing (I'm not sure though I never watched Buffy), but Fred from Angel and River from Firefly both had that plus a severe personality disorder that made them socially awkward and in River's case, almost childlike
And now with Dollhouse we have a whole show centered around women with no personalities or any real knowledge whatsoever
But maybe I'm reading too much into this, I don't know
Joss seems to be more into girls than women, if that makes sense
Yeah I gathered this from pretty much everything he's ever written
That's creepy enough on it's own without anything else adding to it
What about Joyce Summers, Willow, Darla, Drusilla, Harmony, Lilah, Kaylee, Inara, and Zoe?
There's actually a lot more variety in Whedon's female characters than you suggest.
I never watched Buffy, Darla was just a bitch and I never liked her, Drusilla was also crazy, Harmony was a vapid blonde, don't know who Lilah is, Kaylee was also a girl but in a different and more endearing way, Inara I'm not sure how I feel about quite frankly because I found the whole companion idea sort of dumb to begin with, and Zoe was probably the most normal woman he's ever created so yeah I've got nothing on her
Essentially, but even further than that, it boils down to the dialogue. Whedon sets himself apart with his writing, and there was very little to the pilot episode that felt to me like he'd written it.
Whedon likes to play on expectations, and turn them upside down, usually for the sake of humor, but not always. He'll put his characters into a tough situation where you expect they'll fight and overcome, and instead they run away before the fight begins. Or he'll put two people into a stand-off with guns drawn, and when one begins to pontificate, the protaganist will just pull the trigger. Sometimes it can be as low key as a couple lines of dialogue, like Mal asking if Jayne wants to run the ship, to which Jayne replies yes. Not something Mal was expecting when he was trying to make a point about being in charge.
This episode didn't have any moments like that, and if it did, I didn't catch them.
Go watch Buffy's first episode. Is there really anything like what you suggest in there?
At this point we've been told the first few episodes have been written to be heavily episodic and repetitive to keep Fox happy. I fully intend to give Whedon time to develop these personalities and storylines to where we're getting the kind of writing we expect. Remember previously when he set up all these complex relationships off screen (Firefly) and slowly played them out....he was canceled.
Joss is more into starting with immature characters and letting them grow. Though it is interesting that while his shows often have a father figure, they never have a mother figure. EDIT: this is in regards to Joss and girls. It would be just as accurate to say he's more into boys than men. Sorry, I don't see the creepiness.
(in Joss, that is. Obviously his shows make deliberate use of creepiness quite a lot.)
I was not much impressed with the pilot overall, and I was kind of distressed by the extent to which it blatantly appealed to sex. Most Joss shows give you an immediate grasp of the characters. This pilot followed Echo almost exclusively, and of course her personality gets wiped out. What was left was mostly sex and action, which Whedon has never been adverse to, but usually he makes them interesting because of the characters engaged in it. Here, the appeal was nakedly hot chic is hot. And I miss the humor. I don't think it's alienating at all; if you don't get it, then you never even realize it was there.
Liked the transition from Echo's first personality to Echo, though. Creepy and sad in a classic Joss way.
Whedon shows have never struck me as having "soul"
They've been vaguely clever, paced well, clearly witty and purposefully written, but they've never once felt real to me
The dialogue and the situations and the way that often times he'd have characters do something specifically out of character to surprise the audience (this happens a lot in Angel) always felt artificial and constructed. Even his run on Astonishing X-Men suffered from this
It's part of the reason I wasn't enthusiastic about this show to begin with (the other part being the premise)
I dunno, on Buffy there are times when I could definitely see some of my friends or myself act similarly, normally when the main scoobies are bantering in the earlier series. Heck, one example is
when Oz is doing his talk about the monkey and animal crackers to Willow
Oh, I fully intend to watch the show through to it's conclusion. I do trust Whedon. These are just the reasons I didn't really care for the pilot episode.
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
Honestly, after watching the first episode, I don't have any interest to keep watching beyond figuring out
who that naked guy was who killed those two people
and I don't know if that's enough, quite frankly
The whole premise is doing nothing for me and none of the characters have endeared themselves to me in any way, especially Eliza Dushku since her character is literally without depth, and really, depending on the angle, she's either pretty hot or a two-by-four
The whole premise is doing nothing for me and none of the characters have endeared themselves to me in any way, especially Eliza Dushku since her character is literally without depth, and really, depending on the angle, she's either pretty hot or a two-by-four
Echo is without depth, but the personalities that are imprinted on her aren't, or at least don't have to be. Sure they're only around for one episode, but if you've ever seen a good anthology series you'll know that you can do a lot in one episode.
And of course she'll probably develop a personality of her own eventually.
I was thinking that as well but Joyce was typically either clueless or not present.
Not exactly a sterling Mother Figure there.
I don't equate being a perfect mother with being a good fictional rendition of a mother, and I don't think you can say Whedon never did the character justice.
Also, I didn't mean to suggest Lilah was a mother figure.
I don't equate being a perfect mother with being a good fictional rendition of a mother, and I don't think you can say Whedon never did the character justice.
Also, I didn't mean to suggest Lilah was a mother figure.
I am confused by what your response was then. Joyce is a mother in a work of fiction but she isn't really a Mother Figure. She occasionally does some of those things but in no way is she comparable to Giles and his role as a Father Figure.
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This was basically my problem with the pilot episode. It doesn't feel like a Whedon show right now.
I get the feeling that he's not really passionate about this IP and is doing it firstly for a paycheck and secondly to set up a good show for Eliza before possibly moving on to something more interesting like RDM while the show continues to run its course.
More specifically, instead of using the premise merely for dumb episodic fun, it appears to be tackling its moral implications and its consequences on the show's characters head-on.
Sure, it lacked Whedon's trademark witty banter, but that may yet come. For now, I don't mind that he's trying to strike a more serious tone.
Seriously?
I'm a huge Whedon fanboy and I thought this was pretty bad. Eliza was laughable as the hostage negotiator.
Most of the supporting cast was good though.
The cast hasn't done anything to bring themselves together as a group of people, they feel too segregated.
I'd need to see more before this 'soul' thing comes into play.
I suppose I can see the point about there not being the same camaraderie (between the cast members) as Whedon's other shows, but that's the nature of the beast when you have half the cast in a gray area between villain and protagonist, and possibly at odds in purpose with the rest.
But I really liked everything involving Langdon's (Echo's handler's) relationship with the rest of the cast, especially Echo herself.
I don't know, deleting a woman's freewill so she can be some rich bitch's Vegas fucktoy seems a little past gray area to me.
Not as much so if she agreed to have all this done to her--guess it depends whether you consider this kind of high-end pimping "gray area". We don't really know the details, but the first scene suggests that she did sign up to be in the Dollhouse, to get out of some kind of trouble.
But I'd agree they're pretty despicable. Preying on people in trouble and essentially putting them into indentured servitude, in order to use their bodies to make money, and all that. Just not like, mustache-twirling black-and-white mine is an evil laugh villainy.
For a show that is soulless, watch Fringe.
They've been vaguely clever, paced well, clearly witty and purposefully written, but they've never once felt real to me
The dialogue and the situations and the way that often times he'd have characters do something specifically out of character to surprise the audience (this happens a lot in Angel) always felt artificial and constructed. Even his run on Astonishing X-Men suffered from this
It's part of the reason I wasn't enthusiastic about this show to begin with (the other part being the premise)
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Hm... interesting. Why do you think that is? Not enough humor I guess?
Ugh, if that sounds really sarcastic or facetious, it isn't.
I'm sticking with it for as long as it takes for the show to get good, but it better be fast.
It has real potential.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJjaj7pXsA
Yup. That clip was worth a giggle.
Fatherly types like Edward James Olmos.
I missed this because I was watching BSG. But Hulu's coming through right now.
Hmmm...
I mean Buffy was alright I guess, beyond the obvious "I have a fetish for teenage girls kicking ass" thing (I'm not sure though I never watched Buffy), but Fred from Angel and River from Firefly both had that plus a severe personality disorder that made them socially awkward and in River's case, almost childlike
And now with Dollhouse we have a whole show centered around women with no personalities or any real knowledge whatsoever
But maybe I'm reading too much into this, I don't know
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
Two female characters out of dozens are playing on a common archtype. I find Fred and River very different but I admit to some similarities between River and empty Echo but I suspect that has something to do with the very short time he spent writing for River. There were ideas surrounding the character which he wasn't given time to explore.
Josh is generally pretty good at having a wide spectrum of female roles. You can lob some accusations of sexism at him (Space Whores!) but that's just because he seem interested in discussing sexuality rather than merely exploit it.
Joss seems to be more into girls than women, if that makes sense
Essentially, but even further than that, it boils down to the dialogue. Whedon sets himself apart with his writing, and there was very little to the pilot episode that felt to me like he'd written it.
Whedon likes to play on expectations, and turn them upside down, usually for the sake of humor, but not always. He'll put his characters into a tough situation where you expect they'll fight and overcome, and instead they run away before the fight begins. Or he'll put two people into a stand-off with guns drawn, and when one begins to pontificate, the protaganist will just pull the trigger. Sometimes it can be as low key as a couple lines of dialogue, like Mal asking if Jayne wants to run the ship, to which Jayne replies yes. Not something Mal was expecting when he was trying to make a point about being in charge.
This episode didn't have any moments like that, and if it did, I didn't catch them.
There's actually a lot more variety in Whedon's female characters than you suggest.
There was the line about Slates, but that fell flat for me.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Yeah I gathered this from pretty much everything he's ever written
That's creepy enough on it's own without anything else adding to it
I never watched Buffy, Darla was just a bitch and I never liked her, Drusilla was also crazy, Harmony was a vapid blonde, don't know who Lilah is, Kaylee was also a girl but in a different and more endearing way, Inara I'm not sure how I feel about quite frankly because I found the whole companion idea sort of dumb to begin with, and Zoe was probably the most normal woman he's ever created so yeah I've got nothing on her
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
At this point we've been told the first few episodes have been written to be heavily episodic and repetitive to keep Fox happy. I fully intend to give Whedon time to develop these personalities and storylines to where we're getting the kind of writing we expect. Remember previously when he set up all these complex relationships off screen (Firefly) and slowly played them out....he was canceled.
(in Joss, that is. Obviously his shows make deliberate use of creepiness quite a lot.)
I was not much impressed with the pilot overall, and I was kind of distressed by the extent to which it blatantly appealed to sex. Most Joss shows give you an immediate grasp of the characters. This pilot followed Echo almost exclusively, and of course her personality gets wiped out. What was left was mostly sex and action, which Whedon has never been adverse to, but usually he makes them interesting because of the characters engaged in it. Here, the appeal was nakedly hot chic is hot. And I miss the humor. I don't think it's alienating at all; if you don't get it, then you never even realize it was there.
Liked the transition from Echo's first personality to Echo, though. Creepy and sad in a classic Joss way.
I dunno, on Buffy there are times when I could definitely see some of my friends or myself act similarly, normally when the main scoobies are bantering in the earlier series. Heck, one example is
and I don't know if that's enough, quite frankly
The whole premise is doing nothing for me and none of the characters have endeared themselves to me in any way, especially Eliza Dushku since her character is literally without depth, and really, depending on the angle, she's either pretty hot or a two-by-four
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And Lilah was the female lawyer in Angel.
Echo is without depth, but the personalities that are imprinted on her aren't, or at least don't have to be. Sure they're only around for one episode, but if you've ever seen a good anthology series you'll know that you can do a lot in one episode.
And of course she'll probably develop a personality of her own eventually.
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Not exactly a sterling Mother Figure there.
And the idea of Lilah as a mother figure is pretty nuts.
Also, I didn't mean to suggest Lilah was a mother figure.
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