So what is the answer? Never set any kind of game in Africa ever?
I think not having all your protagonists of one race, killing antagonists entirely composed of another by the bucketload would be a good start. Especially when there's historical connotations to that specific combination of races.
Actually, the answer is so fucking simple it's pathetic. Make Sheva every bit as dark as the infected Africans. That way people can't accuse you of setting up a KKK fantasy. But Capcom lightened Sheva up so much that the "but she's African too!" defense won't work for people who would complain about this.
I would have bolded other parts of the article as what I consider to be the problem.
Since the Majini are not undead corpses, and are capable of driving vehicles, handling weapons and even using guns, it makes the line between the infected monsters and African civilians uncomfortably vague. Where Africans are concerned, the game seems to be suggesting, bloodthirsty savagery just comes with the territory...
It's perfectly possible to use Africa as the setting for a powerful and troubling horror story, but when you're applying the concept of people being turned into savage monsters onto an actual ethnic group that has long been misrepresented as savage monsters, it's hard to see how elements of race weren't going to be a factor.
The problem is not "OMG a white guy is killing black guys!!!" It's that they've played into a lot of the racist stereotypes that we've been trying to get rid of for a long time. From the impressions that I've read, the biggest problem is that the Africans are never really shown to be human, but are always depicted as evil and animalistic, which are the exact same views that persisted in Europe during colonial times. If Capcom had portrayed these guys as more human at first, and then you saw more of the transformation, that would be one thing. But that doesn't appear to be the case.
Like the article said, it's not impossible to use Africa as a setting for a survival horror game like this, but you have to be careful with how you treat it due to the way that Americans and Europeans treated Africans for hundreds of years. Capcom didn't do that, and it'll likely cause a firestorm in the media thanks to the popularity of the franchise.
This, basically.
The bolded comment. Have you seen it yourself in the game yet, or are you just taking someone's shitty word for it?
If a game were to be taking place in Nazi Germany, where we'd see a shitton of racism, would people through a fit over things that actually happened being depicted in video games? Things get shown in movies from time to time about the realities of the world.
Um... I said "from the impressions I've read", which should clearly indicate that it's only from what I've read. All I've seen is the infamous trailer from several months ago. I guess I should add the podcast I listened to this morning as well, which also had problems with the feeling of racism in the game.
Is there a particular reason why the Eurogamer preview writer's word is 'shitty'?
So what is the answer? Never set any kind of game in Africa ever?
I think not having all your protagonists of one race, killing antagonists entirely composed of another by the bucketload would be a good start. Especially when there's historical connotations to that specific combination of races.
There's historical connotations with every race. The only one that escapes that, unless someone corrects me, is hispanics and asians. Why don't we use them for games only?
They're not all in the US where Capcom is going to release the game, and where most of the hubub is likely to happen. Or are we pretending this is going to be an issue in Japan?
For the multiple quotes on mine, I meant that the zombie will be laying face down on the ground so you won't be able to see his eyes that ARE red, and then he gets stomped on.
Like the article says in closing, if we're going to have images like this in games, we're going to need better justification for it than "it's just a game!".
Sure "it's probably happened at some point in Africa, chill out" might be true, but it's hardly a stellar reason.
This is pretty much my stance. You can't toss an incredibly offensive image into your game and then try to wiggle out of it with semantics. If this was a JRPG and the main magic user got her powers from a phallic shaped 'magic crystal' penetrating their groin and boosted that power with a splooshy tattoo on their face, the dev can call it a cultural symbol and a power crystall they want - you still see an image straight out of a porno. This is the same deal. Red eyed 'infected' or not, there's a pair of white people gunning down hordes of black people. It doesn't take a genius to make the connection betweent that image and racism. You can argue semantics if you want, but I won't. I don't think it had racist motives, I think the Japense makers of the game were just far enough removed from American racism not to consider it - but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable playing the game, because I DO recognize that imagery., and whether the intention was racist or not it still lessens my desire to play the game.
It's almost like the protagonist and the antagonists are from different countries!
If you had a pair of black guys mowing down hordes of black guys, then you would call it racist because it's black on black crime, and say they're trying to portray all black people as bloodthirsty killers. If it was two white guys killing hordes of white guys in africa, it'd be racist because they are excluding black people from a game set in their own country. If it was two white guys not mowing down a horde of black guys, and just talking to them to find clues, it would be Carmen Sandiego.
This line of political correct bullshit leads to all characters in the future being nondescript and as boring as possible in order to make sure it doesn't offend anyone.
So what is the answer? Never set any kind of game in Africa ever?
I think not having all your protagonists of one race, killing antagonists entirely composed of another by the bucketload would be a good start. Especially when there's historical connotations to that specific combination of races.
There's historical connotations with every race. The only one that escapes that, unless someone corrects me, is hispanics and asians. Why don't we use them for games only?
They're not all in the US where Capcom is going to release the game, and where most of the hubub is likely to happen. Or are we pretending this is going to be an issue in Japan?
People just assume Japan is full of racists. :P
The vast majority of sales are going to be in America and Europe. It would be one thing if this game was only meant for Japanese people, but it obviously isn't meant just for Japanese people.
Couscous on
0
Options
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Whitehead seems to be quite a key writer at Eurogamer, who themselves are a fairly respected site. I'm going to take his views over, say.. yours.
Does RE5 take place over the grand landscape of Africa, or is it set in a certain location (or locations)? If the former, then he would be right. It isn't right to depict the entirety of Africa as animalistic and such.
But look. We're all smart people here. We know that one person, or a small group in the big picture of the world, does not represent the whole. We can look at this as, "All Africans are being shown as such and such," or we can be objective and at least realize, "Okay, this part of Africa where the game is taking place may or may not be fucked up in real life, and if it isn't, it's fucked up for some aspect of the game itself."
Nobody shits a brick when they watch Ghost in the Shell and America is actually named The American Empire as opposed to the United States. Nobody shits a brick when Metal Gear's storyline shits all over America as being underhanded and evil. Why? Because they realize it's motherfucking fiction.
Like the article says in closing, if we're going to have images like this in games, we're going to need better justification for it than "it's just a game!".
Sure "it's probably happened at some point in Africa, chill out" might be true, but it's hardly a stellar reason.
This is pretty much my stance. You can't toss an incredibly offensive image into your game and then try to wiggle out of it with semantics. If this was a JRPG and the main magic user got her powers from a phallic shaped 'magic crystal' penetrating their groin and boosted that power with a splooshy tattoo on their face, the dev can call it a cultural symbol and a power crystall they want - you still see an image straight out of a porno. This is the same deal. Red eyed 'infected' or not, there's a pair of white people gunning down hordes of black people. It doesn't take a genius to make the connection betweent that image and racism. You can argue semantics if you want, but I won't. I don't think it had racist motives, I think the Japense makers of the game were just far enough removed from American racism not to consider it - but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable playing the game, because I DO recognize that imagery., and whether the intention was racist or not it still lessens my desire to play the game.
It's almost like the protagonist and the antagonists are from different countries!
If you had a pair of black guys mowing down hordes of black guys, then you would call it racist because it's black on black crime, and say they're trying to portray all black people as bloodthirsty killers. If it was two white guys killing hordes of white guys in africa, it'd be racist because they are excluding black people from a game set in their own country. If it was two white guys not mowing down a horde of black guys, and just talking to them to find clues, it would be Carmen Sandiego.
This line of political correct bullshit leads to all characters in the future being nondescript and as boring as possible in order to make sure it doesn't offend anyone.
If you had a pair of black guys mowing down hordes of lack guys, then you would call it racist because it's black on black crime, and say they're trying to portray all black people as bloodthirsty killers.
People didn't think GTA:SA was racist because of that.
If it was two white guys killing hordes of white guys in africa, it'd be racist because they are excluding black people from a game set in their own country.
Anyone who feels like they need to be offended on the behalf of Africans is likely to be more racist than anyone who just plays and enjoys the game. They're full-grown people. They do not need you to sit in your suburban homes and spend your time trying to defend them. White man's burden, anyone?
Like the article says in closing, if we're going to have images like this in games, we're going to need better justification for it than "it's just a game!".
Sure "it's probably happened at some point in Africa, chill out" might be true, but it's hardly a stellar reason.
This is pretty much my stance. You can't toss an incredibly offensive image into your game and then try to wiggle out of it with semantics. If this was a JRPG and the main magic user got her powers from a phallic shaped 'magic crystal' penetrating their groin and boosted that power with a splooshy tattoo on their face, the dev can call it a cultural symbol and a power crystall they want - you still see an image straight out of a porno. This is the same deal. Red eyed 'infected' or not, there's a pair of white people gunning down hordes of black people. It doesn't take a genius to make the connection betweent that image and racism. You can argue semantics if you want, but I won't. I don't think it had racist motives, I think the Japense makers of the game were just far enough removed from American racism not to consider it - but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable playing the game, because I DO recognize that imagery., and whether the intention was racist or not it still lessens my desire to play the game.
It's almost like the protagonist and the antagonists are from different countries!
If you had a pair of black guys mowing down hordes of lack guys, then you would call it racist because it's black on black crime, and say they're trying to portray all black people as bloodthirsty killers. If it was two white guys killing hordes of white guys in africa, it'd be racist because they are excluding black people from a game set in their own country. If it was two white guys not mowing down a horde of black guys, and just talking to them to find clues, it would be Carmen Sandiego.
This line of political correct bullshit leads to all characters in the future being nondescript and as boring as possible in order to make sure it doesn't offend anyone.
I must admit, I do feel slightly uncomfortable with the white guy mowing down black people part of it. However, that is not the crux of the issue. It's the "blacks are evil / animalistic" imagery that is present from the very beginning of the game. Like I said before, if Capcom had made some of the villagers 'un-infected' and you worked with them before they became infected, this controversy would not exist. But when you play on the "blacks are inhuman" image throughout the entire game, congratulations - you just tapped into hundreds of years of racism. That's the problem.
If you had a pair of black guys mowing down hordes of lack guys, then you would call it racist because it's black on black crime, and say they're trying to portray all black people as bloodthirsty killers.
People didn't think GTA:SA was racist because of that.
If it was two white guys killing hordes of white guys in africa, it'd be racist because they are excluding black people from a game set in their own country.
Africa is now a country?
Fine, "The Republic of *COMPASS POINT* Africa". Arguing semantics at this point is kind of like acknowledging that crusading against Resident Evil being racist is just retarded.
A character being white and killing a bunch of black people wouldn't be a problem if depicted in the right way. For example, Chris could just be investigating at first and have to defend a small town from suspicious invaders who turn out to be controlled by the virus. The town could then be infected by the virus. This would show that they were perfectly normal people and could even improve the game if player got to know some of the people enough to care about them.
Whitehead seems to be quite a key writer at Eurogamer, who themselves are a fairly respected site. I'm going to take his views over, say.. yours.
Does RE5 take place over the grand landscape of Africa, or is it set in a certain location (or locations)? If the former, then he would be right. It isn't right to depict the entirety of Africa as animalistic and such.
But look. We're all smart people here. We know that one person, or a small group in the big picture of the world, does not represent the whole. We can look at this as, "All Africans are being shown as such and such," or we can be objective and at least realize, "Okay, this part of Africa where the game is taking place may or may not be fucked up in real life, and if it isn't, it's fucked up for some aspect of the game itself."
Nobody shits a brick when they watch Ghost in the Shell and America is actually named The American Empire as opposed to the United States. Nobody shits a brick when Metal Gear's storyline shits all over America as being underhanded and evil. Why? Because they realize it's motherfucking fiction.
Yeah, calling America the American Empire is totally just like only putting negative stereotypes associated with Africans into your game. And then having a cultured white man go around and eradicate all the savage natives.
Rook on
0
Options
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited February 2009
I'm waiting for people to point me in the direction of where the game clearly states, "Black people are like this everywhere."
You guys are way too caught up in reading between the lines.
Like the article says in closing, if we're going to have images like this in games, we're going to need better justification for it than "it's just a game!".
Sure "it's probably happened at some point in Africa, chill out" might be true, but it's hardly a stellar reason.
This is pretty much my stance. You can't toss an incredibly offensive image into your game and then try to wiggle out of it with semantics. If this was a JRPG and the main magic user got her powers from a phallic shaped 'magic crystal' penetrating their groin and boosted that power with a splooshy tattoo on their face, the dev can call it a cultural symbol and a power crystall they want - you still see an image straight out of a porno. This is the same deal. Red eyed 'infected' or not, there's a pair of white people gunning down hordes of black people. It doesn't take a genius to make the connection betweent that image and racism. You can argue semantics if you want, but I won't. I don't think it had racist motives, I think the Japense makers of the game were just far enough removed from American racism not to consider it - but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable playing the game, because I DO recognize that imagery., and whether the intention was racist or not it still lessens my desire to play the game.
It's almost like the protagonist and the antagonists are from different countries!
If you had a pair of black guys mowing down hordes of black guys, then you would call it racist because it's black on black crime, and say they're trying to portray all black people as bloodthirsty killers. If it was two white guys killing hordes of white guys in africa, it'd be racist because they are excluding black people from a game set in their own country. If it was two white guys not mowing down a horde of black guys, and just talking to them to find clues, it would be Carmen Sandiego.
This line of political correct bullshit leads to all characters in the future being nondescript and as boring as possible in order to make sure it doesn't offend anyone.
Not at all. Like the article said, there ARE ways to do this kind of game without immediately triggering racist imagery. The game's not out yet, so for all I know it's in there. But you have to be damn careful dealing with this kind of thing, and I just think the devs were far enough removed from that culturally that this probably didn't happen. I agree with the early sentiment that one of the biggest problems, if it ends up being true, is that they're AREN'T any factions or redeemers or any group of Africans acting as human - if they just run at you in animalistic hordes and you kill them, it's way, WAY too simplistic to have anyone who's even remotely familiar with historical western European attitudes towards Africans to play without making connections to past racist philosophies on some level.
Like I said, THAT DOESN'T MAKE THE GAME RACIST. If anything, it makes more plain the racial filter that most Americans view the world through that many other cultures don't. But it probably would have been a good idea to take that into account when designing the game, and if that resulted in some more complexity in the enemies/your allies/the population you deal with in Africa, it probably would have made the game better anyway.
Yeah, there's a difference between going "CAPCOM ARE RACIST!" and going "whoah, you're throwing a bunch of racist stereotypes in there that could easily be misconstrued".
Yeah, there's a difference between going "CAPCOM ARE RACIST!" and going "whoah, you're throwing a bunch of racist stereotypes in there that could easily be misconstrued".
But we're grown up enough to know not to misconstrue them, yes?
A character being white and killing a bunch of black people wouldn't be a problem.
No. Stop here. One white person killing black people does not a racist make. Nor was Leon as he fought in RE4. If a black person killing white people does not make him a racist, it doesn't work the other way around.
A character being white and killing a bunch of black people wouldn't be a problem.
No. Stop here. One white person killing black people does not a racist make. Nor was Leon as he fought in RE4. If a black person killing white people does not make him a racist, it doesn't work the other way around.
Ummm, I didn't say it was racist.
Couscous on
0
Options
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Yeah, there's a difference between going "CAPCOM ARE RACIST!" and going "whoah, you're throwing a bunch of racist stereotypes in there that could easily be misconstrued".
But we're grown up enough to know not to misconstrue them, yes?
That's the problem. WE are, because we actually know what's going on with the game. People who haven't played the game (in other words, over 99 percent of the population) won't know the context, and will just see two white people killing evil black people.
I'm waiting for people to point me in the direction of where the game clearly states, "Black people are like this everywhere."
You guys are way too caught up in reading between the lines.
white mans guilt, perhaps?
Big picture question: is this only being dicussed because it is a game? Do the same exact thing in a movie and no one notices.
No, the issue here is that racism and other such associated issues are 'grown up' issues and gamers want to legitimize their medium by having games that are racist or thought provoking. How many times do you have to hear 'hollywood quality writing' or other bollocks before we realize that games are just games, not a higher level of artform such as cinema - and get on with things.
Making Resi 5 out to be racist, or looking upon it with a more powerful level of scrutiny, is their way of heightening the medium for themselves.
You never get to write about politics or racism or issues of society as a games journalist. I know. And you want to. You want to justify yourself. This is their way. And that includes N'Gai who himself is not exempt from such selfish attitudes, whether he knows it or not.
This is stupid, if you give credibility to this, then you have to give credibility to all the other complaints about contents in videogames, and admit that people like Jack Thompson have a point, and can no longer dismiss him with a "it's just a game" line either. Because if racism in games is a problem, then violence in games is a problem, sexism in games is a problem, etc.
I'm waiting for people to point me in the direction of where the game clearly states, "Black people are like this everywhere."
So you would't mind a film about a plantation filled with happy black guy working for his good master as long as it doesn't say it is like that everywhere?
This is stupid, if you give credibility to this, then you have to give credibility to all the other complaints about contents in videogames, and admit that people like Jack Thompson have a point, and can no longer dismiss him with a "it's just a game" line either. Because if racism in games is a problem, then violence in games is a problem, sexism in games is a problem, etc.
So tell me, you really want to go down that road?
Sexism in games is a problem.
Couscous on
0
Options
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Yeah, there's a difference between going "CAPCOM ARE RACIST!" and going "whoah, you're throwing a bunch of racist stereotypes in there that could easily be misconstrued".
But we're grown up enough to know not to misconstrue them, yes?
That's the problem. WE are, because we actually know what's going on with the game. People who haven't played the game (in other words, over 99 percent of the population) won't know the context, and will just see two white people killing evil black people.
This is why we're bracing for bitching.
Y'know, reading that... I guess I was misunderstanding people in this thread. My worry is mostly on forumers here actually buying into it sending very clear racial messages, instead of it just being a game that takes place on a continent that happens to have a lot of dark skinned people.
Yeah, the media will have a field day, but let's just wait for it instead of pretending like it's already happening (though I guess the Eurogamer preview is the start).
Posts
GM: Rusty Chains (DH Ongoing)
Actually, the answer is so fucking simple it's pathetic. Make Sheva every bit as dark as the infected Africans. That way people can't accuse you of setting up a KKK fantasy. But Capcom lightened Sheva up so much that the "but she's African too!" defense won't work for people who would complain about this.
Um... I said "from the impressions I've read", which should clearly indicate that it's only from what I've read. All I've seen is the infamous trailer from several months ago. I guess I should add the podcast I listened to this morning as well, which also had problems with the feeling of racism in the game.
Is there a particular reason why the Eurogamer preview writer's word is 'shitty'?
3DS FC: 0817-3759-2788
It's almost like the protagonist and the antagonists are from different countries!
If you had a pair of black guys mowing down hordes of black guys, then you would call it racist because it's black on black crime, and say they're trying to portray all black people as bloodthirsty killers. If it was two white guys killing hordes of white guys in africa, it'd be racist because they are excluding black people from a game set in their own country. If it was two white guys not mowing down a horde of black guys, and just talking to them to find clues, it would be Carmen Sandiego.
This line of political correct bullshit leads to all characters in the future being nondescript and as boring as possible in order to make sure it doesn't offend anyone.
That color is white.
People just assume Japan is full of racists. :P
The vast majority of sales are going to be in America and Europe. It would be one thing if this game was only meant for Japanese people, but it obviously isn't meant just for Japanese people.
Does RE5 take place over the grand landscape of Africa, or is it set in a certain location (or locations)? If the former, then he would be right. It isn't right to depict the entirety of Africa as animalistic and such.
But look. We're all smart people here. We know that one person, or a small group in the big picture of the world, does not represent the whole. We can look at this as, "All Africans are being shown as such and such," or we can be objective and at least realize, "Okay, this part of Africa where the game is taking place may or may not be fucked up in real life, and if it isn't, it's fucked up for some aspect of the game itself."
Nobody shits a brick when they watch Ghost in the Shell and America is actually named The American Empire as opposed to the United States. Nobody shits a brick when Metal Gear's storyline shits all over America as being underhanded and evil. Why? Because they realize it's motherfucking fiction.
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
I'm psyched that the game is set in "Africa".
European castles and mansions in the Midwest have been done to death.
I'm tired of the sensationalism that the media has been trying to take with things is all. I'm assuming that's what is going on here.
GM: Rusty Chains (DH Ongoing)
Oh which conflict was that?
Africa is now a country?
Limed it up.
Racism is bad, this is not racism. White person kills a black person /= racism.
Edit on the general note of racism, I as a white male, do not feel any pity for africans for what my ancestors may or may not have done 100 years ago.
I must admit, I do feel slightly uncomfortable with the white guy mowing down black people part of it. However, that is not the crux of the issue. It's the "blacks are evil / animalistic" imagery that is present from the very beginning of the game. Like I said before, if Capcom had made some of the villagers 'un-infected' and you worked with them before they became infected, this controversy would not exist. But when you play on the "blacks are inhuman" image throughout the entire game, congratulations - you just tapped into hundreds of years of racism. That's the problem.
3DS FC: 0817-3759-2788
Fine, "The Republic of *COMPASS POINT* Africa". Arguing semantics at this point is kind of like acknowledging that crusading against Resident Evil being racist is just retarded.
Yeah, calling America the American Empire is totally just like only putting negative stereotypes associated with Africans into your game. And then having a cultured white man go around and eradicate all the savage natives.
You guys are way too caught up in reading between the lines.
Like I said, THAT DOESN'T MAKE THE GAME RACIST. If anything, it makes more plain the racial filter that most Americans view the world through that many other cultures don't. But it probably would have been a good idea to take that into account when designing the game, and if that resulted in some more complexity in the enemies/your allies/the population you deal with in Africa, it probably would have made the game better anyway.
[Edit]
Pretty much what Couscous said.
Doesnt Chris save Sheva at some point? If she isnt black enough for you, then I think we found where the racism is!
Have you watched the trailers?
white mans guilt, perhaps?
Big picture question: is this only being dicussed because it is a game? Do the same exact thing in a movie and no one notices.
But we're grown up enough to know not to misconstrue them, yes?
No. Stop here. One white person killing black people does not a racist make. Nor was Leon as he fought in RE4. If a black person killing white people does not make him a racist, it doesn't work the other way around.
I saw just one of them from late last year, and it made me think how theatrical it seemed. Sorry if I missed out on the color of people's skin.
That's the problem. WE are, because we actually know what's going on with the game. People who haven't played the game (in other words, over 99 percent of the population) won't know the context, and will just see two white people killing evil black people.
This is why we're bracing for bitching.
No, the issue here is that racism and other such associated issues are 'grown up' issues and gamers want to legitimize their medium by having games that are racist or thought provoking. How many times do you have to hear 'hollywood quality writing' or other bollocks before we realize that games are just games, not a higher level of artform such as cinema - and get on with things.
Making Resi 5 out to be racist, or looking upon it with a more powerful level of scrutiny, is their way of heightening the medium for themselves.
You never get to write about politics or racism or issues of society as a games journalist. I know. And you want to. You want to justify yourself. This is their way. And that includes N'Gai who himself is not exempt from such selfish attitudes, whether he knows it or not.
So tell me, you really want to go down that road?
So you would't mind a film about a plantation filled with happy black guy working for his good master as long as it doesn't say it is like that everywhere?
Sexism in games is a problem.
Y'know, reading that... I guess I was misunderstanding people in this thread. My worry is mostly on forumers here actually buying into it sending very clear racial messages, instead of it just being a game that takes place on a continent that happens to have a lot of dark skinned people.
Yeah, the media will have a field day, but let's just wait for it instead of pretending like it's already happening (though I guess the Eurogamer preview is the start).