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[WoW]Paladins: Your tears sustain our 30min seals

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    CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの 電車内Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    So... hit contributes to crit as well? Interesting...

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    How so?
    "An attack has to hit to be able to crit" is a myth.

    WoW uses a one-roll combat system, an attack can either hit, crit, miss, dodged, parried, or blocked.

    Dhalphir on
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    MegaMekMegaMek Girls like girls. Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I got to 50. Western Plaguelands. SO MANY UNDEAD. :D

    MegaMek on
    Is time a gift or punishment?
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    Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    So a question to all those that do Sarth 3D. You use a DK as the MT for Sarth correct?

    Zephyranthes91 on
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    we use a druid

    Dhalphir on
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    Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Why? Seems like a DK tank would be better cause they can have up to 24% base sepll mitigation as well as ass tons of cooldowns from what ive read.

    Zephyranthes91 on
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    NambkabNambkab Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Druids are considered option number one due to the ridiculous amount of health they can stack.

    In our case though, yes we use a DK to tank Sarth. We also haven't quite gotten Sarth3d down, though this past week was our first real attempt and we came damn close.

    Nambkab on
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    CharusCharus Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Why? Seems like a DK tank would be better cause they can have up to 24% base sepll mitigation as well as ass tons of cooldowns from what ive read.

    Mostly because Druids are the only tanks that don't need to maintain a certain level of defense, so they're free to stack stam to the exclusion of everything else on that fight (i.e. the Polar set with all stam gems in it), to get around or above 50k health before the pull. The lethal breaths (the ones that occur after the first drake is dead, before the second drake dies, and while Twilight Torment is on the raid) are still lethal, but with a rotation of their own cooldowns (Barkskin+Survival Instincts), Guardian Spirit from a holy priest, HoSac, and/or a DG-specced bubble, they're survivable (and if your DPS is sufficient, you should only need three of those saves, four tops, before Shadron dies and the breaths no longer 1-shot the tank).

    Charus on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    a normal non-druid will still need to use cooldowns to survive Twilight Torment breaths, i THINK, whereas a druid does not.

    Dhalphir on
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    ExistentialSoundandFuryExistentialSoundandFury Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    How so?
    "An attack has to hit to be able to crit" is a myth.

    WoW uses a one-roll combat system, an attack can either hit, crit, miss, dodged, parried, or blocked.

    That does not mean that Hit does not contribute to Crit.

    Hit and Expertise absolutely contribute to your chances to crit.

    You have an 8% miss chance versus a raid boss
    You have a 6% dodge chance, and a 26?% chance for Parry
    The rest is crit then hit and glancing.

    If you have 100% Crit chance but no hit or expertise, you will have the following outcomes:

    Parry
    Miss
    Dodge
    Glancing Blow
    Crit

    As you increase your Hit/Expertise rating you move these other outcomes off of the table there by creating a larger opportunity to Crit.

    If you Cap Crit to be exactly 100%-(Chance for Glancing Blow), then you can only have 2 outcomes on an attack:

    Crit
    Glancing Blow (Nothing can get rid of these)


    So there is a much lower Crit cap if you don't have any Hit or Expertise.

    Its very indirect but Hit does impact your crit chance.

    ExistentialSoundandFury on
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    considering how low the parry/miss/dodge chances of a boss are, you'd have to be talking about having 80% crit before gaining hit actually directly affected your crit chance

    theoretical outcomes are nice, but in the real world, hit has very little impact on crit. its an important stat, but i just wanted to clear up the myth, a lot of people seem to believe it

    Dhalphir on
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    CharusCharus Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    How so?
    "An attack has to hit to be able to crit" is a myth.

    WoW uses a one-roll combat system, an attack can either hit, crit, miss, dodged, parried, or blocked.

    That does not mean that Hit does not contribute to Crit.

    Hit and Expertise absolutely contribute to your chances to crit.

    You have an 8% miss chance versus a raid boss
    You have a 6% dodge chance, and a 26?% chance for Parry
    The rest is crit then hit and glancing.

    If you have 100% Crit chance but no hit or expertise, you will have the following outcomes:

    Parry
    Miss
    Dodge
    Glancing Blow
    Crit

    As you increase your Hit/Expertise rating you move these other outcomes off of the table there by creating a larger opportunity to Crit.

    If you Cap Crit to be exactly 100%-(Chance for Glancing Blow), then you can only have 2 outcomes on an attack:

    Crit
    Glancing Blow (Nothing can get rid of these)


    So there is a much lower Crit cap if you don't have any Hit or Expertise.

    Its very indirect but Hit does impact your crit chance.

    Not with any rational set of gear.

    I believe the glance rate vs. bosses is still 25% (looking at the glance percentages on some recent WWSes, this appears to be the case), so assuming you're at least attacking from behind (eliminating parries and blocks), with 0 hit and expertise, you'd need to achieve 100 - 8 - 6.5 - 25 = 60.5% chance to crit before your lack of hit or expertise started pushing crits off the table.

    I believe that some attacks do use a 2-roll combat table where avoidance and crit are rolled seperately (rogue yellow swings, mostly), but for everyone else, hit and expertise won't have any practical bearing on crit chance until raid-buffed crit chances start rising above 60%.

    Charus on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    pvp is a two roll system.
    pve is not.

    Dhalphir on
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    ExistentialSoundandFuryExistentialSoundandFury Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Admittedly for Paladins it isn't necessarily as relevant,

    For Casters (17% Miss Chance) and DWers (26% Miss Chance) It can be come a bit more relevant.

    Again this is all theoretical, but its still relevant.

    Crit will overwrite Hit on your attack table, but will not touch Miss/Glancing/Parry/Dodge/Block.

    ExistentialSoundandFury on
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    CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの 電車内Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Sorry, I'm late to the discussion (friend's b-day party), but I swapped out 2 +16 hit gems for 2 +16 str gems, and my crit actually went down. It was like a few tenths of a percent (if that), so it's really negligible. Just thought it was interesting.

    Unfortunately, I didn't think to screenshot it in-game with my armory, but just swapping those 2 gems dropped my crit a little.

    And now to bed, so I'll be unable to respond, sorry.

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Arkan wrote: »
    She was polite about it.

    I'm pretty sure it was just someone expecting too much because of running the fight primarily with overgeared tanks. I was a bit... angry at the time when I was posting, but I've mellowed out by now.

    Your gear is fine. That fight is a positioning and heal intensive fight. The part that hits you the hardest is going to hit anyone for the same amount as it's a magical attack and not physical (if I'm not mistaken).

    You're actually geared enough to barely tank maly25. Some more 25 man tier would probably benefit you more in the +hp aspect, but you're definitely geared enough and this "you take too much damage" is bullshit like someone else said. You probably take less damage than the warriors.

    Maybe they're upset you don't have 50K hp like the druid tank and they can't finger their asshole before they heal you. Any good healer should have no trouble keeping you up in any situation.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Cokebotle wrote: »
    Sorry, I'm late to the discussion (friend's b-day party), but I swapped out 2 +16 hit gems for 2 +16 str gems, and my crit actually went down. It was like a few tenths of a percent (if that), so it's really negligible. Just thought it was interesting.

    Unfortunately, I didn't think to screenshot it in-game with my armory, but just swapping those 2 gems dropped my crit a little.

    And now to bed, so I'll be unable to respond, sorry.

    lost meta gem, or lost socket bonuses, possibly

    also, the only way hit would ever affect your crit, taking the theoretical discussion, is in actual real-world crit terms, not your character sheet crit

    Dhalphir on
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    lionheart_mlionheart_m Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Ugh, anybody knows what's the macro to add a sound effect to ShR? I can't take it anymore, I need some feedback on my crits.

    lionheart_m on
    3DS: 5069-4122-2826 / WiiU: Lionheart-m / PSN: lionheart_m / Steam: lionheart_jg
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Mik's Scrolling Battle Text can add sounds

    Dhalphir on
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    lionheart_mlionheart_m Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    OMG thank you. This is exactly what I've been looking for.

    lionheart_m on
    3DS: 5069-4122-2826 / WiiU: Lionheart-m / PSN: lionheart_m / Steam: lionheart_jg
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    ExistentialSoundandFuryExistentialSoundandFury Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Yeah, to be honest what people expect as acceptable for a tanks gear makes me absolutely nuts.

    I'm Revlek on Sisters of Elune for those curious(work filter blocks Armory ._. ) I may not have 30k (Its ~28k with Frost Presence) unbuffed but I am confident in my tanking abilities, having done a fair amount of 25m tanking without issues.

    I had some Warlock bitch me out stating that Druids are the only tanks worth running progression content with. Somehow HP has become the benchmark of a tank rather than Mitigation + HP.
    Long story short, this lock was retarded and died a lot, because apparently its insulting to use Soul Shatter in Heroic Dungeons. If you single target whoever the fuck you want in an AOE pull you had best accept the consequences.

    Obviously HP is important, I had an DK OT last knight in OS who wanted to do Sarth+3d, he had 22k Health unbuffed, him and his buddies said we should do it because, and I quote, "Tankspot.com made it look easy." Suffice to say that the rest of my group wasn't sold on this idea.

    We tried 1d, as a compromise, but we didn't have the coordination for it (its a PUG), hell half the people didn't really know the Sarth fight by itself let alone a multiple drake encounter. Ended up just doing Sarth by himself. Even this was troublesome because the OT couldn't hold aggro on the adds. (with 3/3 Morbidity wth!)

    ExistentialSoundandFury on
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    bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I did heroic nexus last night. We grabbed a shaman healer because meh we didn't want to wait for a healer to get on in our guild. First thing he asked, "WTF Do you have your dps gear on?"

    "Nope."

    We get going, we're doing good, kill the first boss no problems, we go up the ramp after the big semi-circle room. One of the melee face pulled the pat and the group at the top of the ramp because we were all cracking up on vent and not paying attention (shaman wasn't with us). Shaman goes "Oh no this is going to be bad."

    "Color me surprised." was his response when we survived.

    I stopped and went.

    "Okay look, I didn't get all this gear from naxx 10/25 because I'm a leech, I can solo tank all the trash in 25 man naxx so just calm the hell down and this run will go smooth. -- not everyone is a tauren warrior stacking stamina"

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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    descdesc Goretexing to death Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    MegaMek wrote: »
    I got to 50. Western Plaguelands. SO MANY UNDEAD. :D

    I know rite? Went from 50-53 this weekend myself. What's that, huge mob of undead? You need another Holy Wrath? Well, if you say so!

    It's like a fucking all you-can-exorcise buffet out here.

    desc on
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    DkarrdeDkarrde Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    desc wrote: »
    MegaMek wrote: »
    I got to 50. Western Plaguelands. SO MANY UNDEAD. :D

    I know rite? Went from 50-53 this weekend myself. What's that, huge mob of undead? You need another Holy Wrath? Well, if you say so!

    It's like a fucking all you-can-exorcise buffet out here.

    It's going to be so weird being able to exorcise anything. So weird.
    And so hot.

    Dkarrde on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    As if I didn't have mana issues before... D:

    Gift horse, yes i'm looking at you in the mouth.

    Wavechaser on
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    AnialosAnialos Collies are love, Collies are life! Shadowbrook ColliesRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Oh shush you...I went from 49-56 in EPL/WPL this weekend and only had mana issues if i got cocky and pulled too many. Heirloom gear and the draeni racial heal help of course...as does my bombs from engineering...nothing better than pulling 12 51-2's at 49 and walking away /gg.

    Anialos on
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    JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Ender wrote: »
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    Ret goes like this:

    Ret is quite fun. Oh, and don't use Seal of Command. Blood/Martyr is always what you use in PvE if you like to crit yourself to death on Gluth/Thad/Raz students. Command is garbage.

    While raiding mostly uses Blood, to say Command is garbage is stupid. There are fights that prevent you from using Blood, and using Righteousness or some crappy seal is a huge drop in dps. One point for a seal that you can use for soloing as well as crap fights is pretty awesome.

    I spec into Command when I am ret specifically for switching to when Gluth decimates and if I pvp, but you're not going to kill yourself on Thaddius with a judgement of blood unless your healers are just bad. We use 3 or 4 healers on Thaddius on 25 man usually, and even if you're critting 20k, you're only taking ~7k damage every 7 seconds if you have 4 piece. That's not at all hard to heal through. I'm prot main spec, but I have great ret gear and occasionally raid that way for fun, and trust me, I know. I have used Seal of Blood through 100% of the current raid content and it's not a problem. Most people think using it on Loatheb is bad too, but once again, the healing is not a problem.

    Seal of Command is garbage for PvE, just as I said before. You might have to use it for 10 seconds on Gluth, but that doesn't change the fact that it has been nerfed into the ground. If you're DPS, you're there to do damage, and using a seal that does less damage is counterintuitive to that point. =)

    Joshmvii on
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    WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Anialos wrote: »
    Oh shush you...I went from 49-56 in EPL/WPL this weekend and only had mana issues if i got cocky and pulled too many. Heirloom gear and the draeni racial heal help of course...as does my bombs from engineering...nothing better than pulling 12 51-2's at 49 and walking away /gg.

    49-56... hahaha...

    Yeah no, i'm talking about level 80, running in any instance with undead mobs in it.

    In CoT Strat Heroic, I run out of mana constantly. Spamming all your damage dealing abilities + consecrate + your undead abilities = oom in seconds.

    Is it annoying? Yes. Am I being unreasonable since, while running out of mana i'm pulling close to 3k dps? Probably.

    Like I said, i'm just being bitter and looking a gift horse in the mouth. I could easily save my mana by not going all out DPS, but what fun would that be?

    Wavechaser on
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    Beyond NormalBeyond Normal Lord Phender Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It'd be like surfing without a board.


    Bro.

    Edit: To contribute something to the conversation, Command is what you would use anywhere outside of an instance. You don't want to take damage from a seal while getting beat up, forcing yourself to heal. You would eat up your mana in no time.

    And critting yourself to death sucks :(

    Beyond Normal on
    Battle.net: Phender#1108 -- Steam: Phender -- PS4: Phender12 -- Origin: Phender01
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    WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I like the cut of your jib good sir.

    Wavechaser on
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    Beyond NormalBeyond Normal Lord Phender Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Wave, when I see you post I think of this.

    Gonktastic.jpg

    Beyond Normal on
    Battle.net: Phender#1108 -- Steam: Phender -- PS4: Phender12 -- Origin: Phender01
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    WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Hahaha

    :lol:

    Wavechaser on
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    romeinadayromeinaday Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    I like the cut of your jib good sir.

    I like the cut of his hair.

    God I love that show.

    romeinaday on
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    ArkanArkan Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Dkarrde wrote: »
    desc wrote: »
    MegaMek wrote: »
    I got to 50. Western Plaguelands. SO MANY UNDEAD. :D

    I know rite? Went from 50-53 this weekend myself. What's that, huge mob of undead? You need another Holy Wrath? Well, if you say so!

    It's like a fucking all you-can-exorcise buffet out here.

    It's going to be so weird being able to exorcise anything. So weird.

    And so hot.

    :winky:

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
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    ExistentialSoundandFuryExistentialSoundandFury Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I've got a Pally in the works, I'm stalling to get the BoA 2H Axe (Am annoyed because I prefer swords for a Pally, but its freaking sweet for leveling Ret) then start tearing my way to 80 to round out my collection of class roles.
    Currently
    80 DK - Tank, Dps(rarely)
    80 Hunter - Dps
    80 Pally - Whatever the fuck I gear him for, mostly Healer.

    ExistentialSoundandFury on
    399831.jpg
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    ArkanArkan Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I've got a Pally in the works, I'm stalling to get the BoA 2H Axe (Am annoyed because I prefer swords for a Pally, but its freaking sweet for leveling Ret) then start tearing my way to 80 to round out my collection of class roles.

    You can get a BoA 2h sword from Wintergrasp. Costs a few hundred Stone Keeper's Shards.

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
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    CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの 電車内Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Cokebotle wrote: »
    Sorry, I'm late to the discussion (friend's b-day party), but I swapped out 2 +16 hit gems for 2 +16 str gems, and my crit actually went down. It was like a few tenths of a percent (if that), so it's really negligible. Just thought it was interesting.

    Unfortunately, I didn't think to screenshot it in-game with my armory, but just swapping those 2 gems dropped my crit a little.

    And now to bed, so I'll be unable to respond, sorry.

    lost meta gem, or lost socket bonuses, possibly

    also, the only way hit would ever affect your crit, taking the theoretical discussion, is in actual real-world crit terms, not your character sheet crit

    Except I lost a stam and a haste socket bonus. Not a crit one, and my meta gem is still going (I know to make sure I have the requirements before I replace a gem).

    Maybe it was just another UI glitch. I found I had my armory open last night with my +hit gems in, so I'll look when I get home when it finally updates and double check.

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
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    AnialosAnialos Collies are love, Collies are life! Shadowbrook ColliesRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Anialos wrote: »
    Oh shush you...I went from 49-56 in EPL/WPL this weekend and only had mana issues if i got cocky and pulled too many. Heirloom gear and the draeni racial heal help of course...as does my bombs from engineering...nothing better than pulling 12 51-2's at 49 and walking away /gg.

    49-56... hahaha...

    Yeah no, i'm talking about level 80, running in any instance with undead mobs in it.

    In CoT Strat Heroic, I run out of mana constantly. Spamming all your damage dealing abilities + consecrate + your undead abilities = oom in seconds.

    Is it annoying? Yes. Am I being unreasonable since, while running out of mana i'm pulling close to 3k dps? Probably.

    Like I said, i'm just being bitter and looking a gift horse in the mouth. I could easily save my mana by not going all out DPS, but what fun would that be?

    I see your arguement about 80 and take it as valid as I have seen pallies in my guild do just that. The posts I was replying to however were about the buffet of goodness for pally leveling that EPL/WPL are. *tips hat and walks away*

    Anialos on
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    BobbleBobble Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's a good feeling BoPing the warlock just before he loses that last 200 health, especially when it's a timed strat run and you're kind of in a hurry (we would've made it anyway). I'd describe the feeling as "relieved at covering one's own ass," but it does feel good :P

    Bobble on
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    DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I never run out of mana in raids, and I"m spamming everything.

    5 mans do suck without a mage, though.

    DisruptorX2 on
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