[WoW] Warriors: But if I use my mouse to turn, how do I click on Rend?

Grundlestiltskin

Discussion, Debate, and Guidance to help you not be this guy:

www.darklegacycomics.com

Yay warrior thread. Evolving OP. PM with info you'd like to see here.


Prot Specs
Impale and Deep Wounds
No Deep Wounds

Fury Specs
Standard 18/53/0 spec - Points in Booming Voice, Commanding Presence, Weapon Mastery, and Heroic Fury are swing points.

Arms Specs
My half-assed guess at an Arms PvE spec



Tanking Flowchart!

TankSpot wrote:

Useful Warrior Resources
Elitist Jerks Warrior Subforum - http://elitistjerks.com/f81/
Tankspot - http://www.tankspot.com
3.0 Threat Values (Tankspot) - http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/39775-wow-3-0-threat-values.html
Maxdps.com: A great starting reference for gearing your fury warrior - http://www.maxdps.com/warrior/fury.php
What is my character geared enough to do? - http://be.imba.hu/ or http://www.wow-heroes.com

darunia106

I approve of thread title, cuz that's what I would be asking only a year ago. Anyway, couple of questions:

1.) At the def cap! (The Loken trinket and the def elixir help a lot) I know I should have 20k health min for the easy heroics, but what should my health be at a minimum for the harder heroics like UP?
2.) What's the dodge rating cap? Does 5 points in anticipation affect it?
3.) I haven't used disarm all that much but looking at the improved disarm makes me very tempted for it. Are most bosses undisarmable? And if not, is it worth it just to make trash easier?

Grundlestiltskin

darunia106 wrote: »

1.) At the def cap! (The Loken trinket and the def elixir help a lot) I know I should have 20k health min for the easy heroics, but what should my health be at a minimum for the harder heroics like UP?

Depends on your healer. I did it for the first time with around 20k hp.

darunia106 wrote: »

2.) What's the dodge rating cap? Does 5 points in anticipation affect it?

I don't think there's a hard cap, but there are harsh diminishing returns past a certain point. Sadly my reference for this appears to be offline. The flat percentage points from anticipation are not affected by the DR, and I don't believe they count towards the DR.

darunia106 wrote: »

3.) I haven't used disarm all that much but looking at the improved disarm makes me very tempted for it. Are most bosses undisarmable? And if not, is it worth it just to make trash easier?

Not enough bosses are disarmable in general to make imp disarm worth it. It might be useful on trash, but conventional wisdom says that speccing (and glyphing, to a lesser extent) to improve performance on trash is a waste.

planetes42

suggestion for OP: The allocation of the 5 points in the fury tree for prot (deep wounds). That seems to come up every 2 pages or so and is something that I always have to look up to make sure I am doing the right way.

khain

1) Doesn't really matter as long as the healer is somewhat competent.
2) I don't think there is actually a cap. The easy way to think about it is that you lose about 5% effectiveness every 100 rating. Talents and base stats aren't affected by DR.
3) I believe most heroic instance bosses are disarmable, but I think you would get more mileage out of just getting DW instead of Imp Disarm.


Fury Spec
Commanding Presence isn't really a place for swing points as it gives your tank more HP, though that's not exactly required for current content, though you could get Imp Demo instead. Weapon Mastery should only ever be dropped if your over the expertise cap and even then the better option is to dump expertise rating and get better gear. Moving the point from Heroic Fury to Imp Execute, AM or Imp Berserker Rage would be a slight dps increase.

darunia106

Thanks for the advice. I asked the first one because I was about 21.5k health unbuffed and asked a pug group for heroic UP to join, only to say that I should've had 30k health minimum. Red lights went off and I dropped the matter.

Now the thought of diminishing returns confuses me. Is it that when you're over the def cap the effectiveness of your defense decreases? Also, how does dodge rating affect one's dodge when one is at the def cap exactly?

Little Jim

please append to op thanks

khain

DR has nothing to do with getting 540 defense. DR just means that as you accumulate more dodge/parry/miss rating then each further point of rating is worth less. Defense does give dodge/parry/miss % so amount of each you get is reduced by DR, but not because of the reaching the point where you cannot be crit.

Zek

khain wrote: »

DR has nothing to do with getting 540 defense. DR just means that as you accumulate more dodge/parry/miss rating then each further point of rating is worth less. Defense does give dodge/parry/miss % so amount of each you get is reduced by DR, but not because of the reaching the point where you cannot be crit.

I don't know how the numbers in WoW work but that's not necessarily true. The increase in percentage tapers off but that's not always the same as losing the benefit. For an extreme example, +1% dodge is much more valuable at 50% than at 5% - going from a 95% chance to be hit to a 94% chance is a 1.05% reduction in damage taken, whereas going from 50% to 49% is a 2% reduction. So as your dodge chance goes up, smaller percentage increases will provide the same benefit.

Grundlestiltskin

Zek wrote: »

khain wrote: »

DR has nothing to do with getting 540 defense. DR just means that as you accumulate more dodge/parry/miss rating then each further point of rating is worth less. Defense does give dodge/parry/miss % so amount of each you get is reduced by DR, but not because of the reaching the point where you cannot be crit.

I don't know how the numbers in WoW work but that's not necessarily true. The increase in percentage tapers off but that's not always the same as losing the benefit. For an extreme example, +1% dodge is much more valuable at 50% than at 5% - going from a 95% chance to be hit to a 94% chance is a 1.05% reduction in damage taken, whereas going from 50% to 49% is a 2% reduction. So as your dodge chance goes up, smaller percentage increases will provide the same benefit.

I'm not sure you guys are talking about the same thing.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html

He's talking about a new mechanic in WotLK, where you actually get less %dodge/parry/block the more of it you have.

Zek

Grundlestiltskin wrote: »

Zek wrote: »

khain wrote: »

DR has nothing to do with getting 540 defense. DR just means that as you accumulate more dodge/parry/miss rating then each further point of rating is worth less. Defense does give dodge/parry/miss % so amount of each you get is reduced by DR, but not because of the reaching the point where you cannot be crit.

I don't know how the numbers in WoW work but that's not necessarily true. The increase in percentage tapers off but that's not always the same as losing the benefit. For an extreme example, +1% dodge is much more valuable at 50% than at 5% - going from a 95% chance to be hit to a 94% chance is a 1.05% reduction in damage taken, whereas going from 50% to 49% is a 2% reduction. So as your dodge chance goes up, smaller percentage increases will provide the same benefit.

I'm not sure you guys are talking about the same thing.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html

He's talking about a new mechanic in WotLK, where you actually get less %dodge/parry/block the more of it you have.

That's what I'm talking about. Just throwing out there that there's a big difference between diminishing returns in the % avoidance increase(if not for that there would actually be increasing returns as you approached 100%) and the diminishing of real returns in reduction of incoming damage. This guy's post seems to graph the actual benefit post-diminishing.

Grundlestiltskin

Zek wrote: »

That's what I'm talking about. Just throwing out there that there's a big difference between diminishing returns in the % avoidance increase(if not for that there would actually be increasing returns as you approached 100%) and the diminishing of real returns in reduction of incoming damage. This guy's post seems to graph the actual benefit post-diminishing.

So that makes sense. However, even if the increase in the value of, say, dodge increases the more of it you have (as you showed in your example) offsets the diminishing returns to percentage you get from stacking dodge rating, there will be a point at which you would gain more overall avoidance by spending equivalent points in (parry, miss chance). So while there may not be a point where adding more dodge decreases in value, there is definitely a point at which you'd be better off spending the item points on defense or parry.

I'm just not good enough at math to know what that is

Edit - Oh, that's actually what math guy in that post was working out. Touche math guy.

forty

Grundlestiltskin wrote: »

Tanking Flowchart!

TankSpot wrote:

The thing I've never understood about that flowchart is why does CB come before Shockwave? Wouldn't you want to prioritize the shorter cooldown first like ret paladins do?

Dhalphir

forty wrote: »

Grundlestiltskin wrote: »

Tanking Flowchart!

TankSpot wrote:

The thing I've never understood about that flowchart is why does CB come before Shockwave? Wouldn't you want to prioritize the shorter cooldown first like ret paladins do?

Concussion Blow does not trigger the global cooldown, you can use it and then another ability immedately afterwards. I like to use it to get both it and Shockwave out of the way in one GCD.

Grundlestiltskin wrote: »

Zek wrote: »

That's what I'm talking about. Just throwing out there that there's a big difference between diminishing returns in the % avoidance increase(if not for that there would actually be increasing returns as you approached 100%) and the diminishing of real returns in reduction of incoming damage. This guy's post seems to graph the actual benefit post-diminishing.

So that makes sense. However, even if the increase in the value of, say, dodge increases the more of it you have (as you showed in your example) offsets the diminishing returns to percentage you get from stacking dodge rating, there will be a point at which you would gain more overall avoidance by spending equivalent points in (parry, miss chance). So while there may not be a point where adding more dodge decreases in value, there is definitely a point at which you'd be better off spending the item points on defense or parry.

I'm just not good enough at math to know what that is

Edit - Oh, that's actually what math guy in that post was working out. Touche math guy.

There isn't actually a point where Parry becomes better to spend item points on than Dodge. At least, not a realistically achievable point with current gear. There was a post about it on Tankspot at some point. I'll try find it.

Basically the way avoidance worked in TBC, it became better and better the more of it you had. Having 35% dodge over 30% dodge was a much bigger jump in survival time than 30% dodge over 25%. All diminishing returns does is mean than you keep on getting the same benefit (roughly) from each added percentage point of Dodge.

darunia106 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. I asked the first one because I was about 21.5k health unbuffed and asked a pug group for heroic UP to join, only to say that I should've had 30k health minimum. Red lights went off and I dropped the matter.?

There is no way anyone is going to get to 30k unbuffed HP without heavy investment in 24 stamina gems in every socket they have, full stamina enchants at the expense of superior enchants, and a fair bit of 25man gear besides. I'm in full best in slot gear with the exception of a few small pieces, and even with most of my gems being 8exp/12stam gems I still only just break 30k.

darunia106

Grundlestiltskin wrote: »

Zek wrote: »

khain wrote: »

DR has nothing to do with getting 540 defense. DR just means that as you accumulate more dodge/parry/miss rating then each further point of rating is worth less. Defense does give dodge/parry/miss % so amount of each you get is reduced by DR, but not because of the reaching the point where you cannot be crit.

I don't know how the numbers in WoW work but that's not necessarily true. The increase in percentage tapers off but that's not always the same as losing the benefit. For an extreme example, +1% dodge is much more valuable at 50% than at 5% - going from a 95% chance to be hit to a 94% chance is a 1.05% reduction in damage taken, whereas going from 50% to 49% is a 2% reduction. So as your dodge chance goes up, smaller percentage increases will provide the same benefit.

I'm not sure you guys are talking about the same thing.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html

He's talking about a new mechanic in WotLK, where you actually get less %dodge/parry/block the more of it you have.

That clears things up, thanks.

forty

Dhalphir wrote: »

forty wrote: »

Grundlestiltskin wrote: »

Tanking Flowchart!

TankSpot wrote:

The thing I've never understood about that flowchart is why does CB come before Shockwave? Wouldn't you want to prioritize the shorter cooldown first like ret paladins do?

Concussion Blow does not trigger the global cooldown, you can use it and then another ability immedately afterwards. I like to use it to get both it and Shockwave out of the way in one GCD.

Shit, really? Since when? You'd think they would have mentioned that in the flowchart in some way. Why not just always CB whenever it's up then? Shouldn't CB be in step 0 then (and implicitly in every step if the cooldown is done)?

Dhalphir wrote: »

darunia106 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. I asked the first one because I was about 21.5k health unbuffed and asked a pug group for heroic UP to join, only to say that I should've had 30k health minimum. Red lights went off and I dropped the matter.?

There is no way anyone is going to get to 30k unbuffed HP without heavy investment in 24 stamina gems in every socket they have, full stamina enchants at the expense of superior enchants, and a fair bit of 25man gear besides. I'm in full best in slot gear with the exception of a few small pieces, and even with most of my gems being 8exp/12stam gems I still only just break 30k.

Yeah, that's just another case of "retarded PUG with unrealistic expectations."

Dhalphir

forty wrote: »

Dhalphir wrote: »

forty wrote: »

Grundlestiltskin wrote: »

Tanking Flowchart!

TankSpot wrote:

The thing I've never understood about that flowchart is why does CB come before Shockwave? Wouldn't you want to prioritize the shorter cooldown first like ret paladins do?

Concussion Blow does not trigger the global cooldown, you can use it and then another ability immedately afterwards. I like to use it to get both it and Shockwave out of the way in one GCD.

Shit, really? Since when? You'd think they would have mentioned that in the flowchart in some way. Why not just always CB whenever it's up then? Shouldn't CB be in step 0 then (and implicitly in every step if the cooldown is done)?

Pretty much yes, but the flowchart was made before the majority of people realised it about CB. Concussion Blow IS affected by the GCD...its not "off" the GCD per se, but it doesn't trigger it. And you do use CB whenever its up, provided you have a 5stack of Devastate up.

forty wrote: »

Dhalphir wrote: »

darunia106 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. I asked the first one because I was about 21.5k health unbuffed and asked a pug group for heroic UP to join, only to say that I should've had 30k health minimum. Red lights went off and I dropped the matter.?

There is no way anyone is going to get to 30k unbuffed HP without heavy investment in 24 stamina gems in every socket they have, full stamina enchants at the expense of superior enchants, and a fair bit of 25man gear besides. I'm in full best in slot gear with the exception of a few small pieces, and even with most of my gems being 8exp/12stam gems I still only just break 30k.

Yeah, that's just another case of "retarded PUG with unrealistic expectations."

As soon as people start GETTING pug heroics with tanks with 30k hp, thats what they'll start expecting.

The week I hit 80 people were just glad that there was an 80 tank with crit-capped defense willing to tank, let alone having any sort of standards about the rest of his gear.

TheCrumblyCracker

Is it worth taking Enrage for leveling? Me and a pally friend plan on both specing mad dps. I will most likely have aggro so enrage sounds like a perma 15% buff. Terrible for group PVE obviously. What to give up though..

Dehumanized

Yeah, Enrage is a solid talent for solo levelling. It'll be, strictly speaking, less good since you're duoing, but it's probably going to be better than improved berserker stance at levelling AP values, to name a quick example of where you can trim points.

Possibly could trim from Commanding Presence, too. You definitely don't need improved execute either.


http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LN0c0fhZGx0sqVubeR0kAo

I'd tend towards this, building into arms after filling out fury. Once you get into deep fury it's basically all a bunch of om nom nom DPS, while the shallow part of arms is a ton of filler followed by 7 ridiculously powerful points.

Dhalphir

Enrage is definitely a top-notch levelling talent, but its the kind of talent you ditch the second you hit 80

TheCrumblyCracker

I am already level 68, got a few blues etc. I have a 70 decked hunter but I yearn to taste flesh again.

From kneecap level.

mirarant

Nice OP is nice but maxdps.com is not such a good site unless there have been recent developments I am not aware of.

Grundlestiltskin

mirarant wrote: »

Nice OP is nice but maxdps.com is not such a good site unless there have been recent developments I am not aware of.

I certainly wouldn't use it as gospel, but it's a nice jumping off point/reference to give you an idea of what upgrades come from what and their relative value compared to other items.

Brainleech

Little Jim wrote: »

please append to op thanks

Grundlestiltskin

If you keep linking the same orc I'm going to put a gnome in the OP. Don't tempt me

Not every OP will be the same.

The second pic can stay though.

rfalias

Gnomes are poopie butts.

Mazzyx

So today I got the thanes helm of 10 man 4h, of course the week after I breakdown and build the titansteel abomination, I mean tanking helm. So running my math or so its about 1.5% avoidance verse 600 hp. I rather wear the Thanes for looks but if its a no go then I will still wear mister ugly and keep the thane around when I reach a fight that is more of an avoidance than an hp soak.

815165

The lack of lil' Jim in the OP is upsetting my Orcy sensibilities.

TheCrumblyCracker

Suitable OP pictures IMO

Okay that didn't work but the Gnome Warrior DW Armageddon is pretty awesome.

Halfmex

I've been really trying to come up with some way to make Arms appealing in PvE over Titan's Grip, and man, I just can't think of anything. I'm not sure how hot an idea TG was at this point. In the past, the appeal to Fury was that what you lost in 'big numbers' you gained in higher, smoother DPS. Arms was just the opposite: spiky as all hell, but still fun. Now Fury's kind of got the best of both worlds. Can't really see how they'll match that appeal in Arms.

Grundlestiltskin

Give Arms the ability to transform into a weapon for Fury warriors to wield, Megatron style. Boom, problem solved.

Bigity

I can get a screen with my gnome warrior.

I may have one of him sitting on the throne in BRD.

Dehumanized

In the Arms war, the only clear solution is to replace bladestorm with being able to wield three two-handers.

TheCrumblyCracker

God heroic leap was so awesome. Why did they remove it

khain

Having an ability where you can target where you land is going to be used for terrain abuse at the very least.

Armored Gorilla

Dehumanized wrote: »

In the Arms war, the only clear solution is to replace bladestorm with being able to wield three two-handers.

I would also accept one three-hander.

JustinSane07

I had so much trouble finding this thread.

I know you're all overjoyed that I'm here now.

Bask in the glow of my jail avatar.

Grundlestiltskin

Yes, I cleverly disguised it with an ambiguous title beginning with "[WoW] Warriors." Despite my best efforts, I knew it was only a matter of time before you found it.

Iroh

Grundlestiltskin wrote: »

Yes, I cleverly disguised it with an ambiguous title beginning with "[WoW] Warriors." Despite my best efforts, I knew it was only a matter of time before you found it.

There's no way to be sure without the screaming orc in the OP.

815165

Iroh wrote: »

Grundlestiltskin wrote: »

Yes, I cleverly disguised it with an ambiguous title beginning with "[WoW] Warriors." Despite my best efforts, I knew it was only a matter of time before you found it.

There's no way to be sure without the screaming orc in the OP.

This is an excellent point.

Also that Tauren is making me feel bad because I had those shoulders for months.

Grundlestiltskin

Do I look like a guy with a plan?