reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
They should change the 51 point talent ability to still give those extra points, but also be an activateable pet attack, like Intimidation but deals damage rather than stun+threat. This would go a little way to solve the "BM has simplest rotation" thing.
reVerse on
0
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
I don't want to get my hopes up, but with the tradition of expansions being that big changes/fixes come down the pike each time a new one is launched, I would not be surprised to see pet leveling abolished with this coming expansion. Enough people have complained about it from day one, and this would be a huge 'favor' to the hunter community.
Sort of like that ammo change.
That never happened.
At least not the way they had originally planned, but totally plan on doing it that way soon.
Q: Additionally, do we plan to expand upon the number of pet action bar slots? Due to the current number of slots available for pets, hunters frequently have to swap pet abilities in and out of their spell/ability book.
A: Yes, we definitely want to do this. The whole pet bar needs a little work. There are still some bugs relating to which abilities can be moved on or off the bar and whether they default to autocast or not. We want the bar to work much more like character action bars.
Finally we can continue to wait a ridiculously long time for Cower not to set itself to autocast without having to waste a pet action bar slot on it.
Eh, it's not a truly big deal to put it on the pet bar. Just take all the things off you never turn off anyway, like the base + focus attacks.
EDIT: They really should just delete that "ability" altogether. :P
Asuma on
"Extremism is so easy. You've got your position, and that's it. It doesn't take much thought. And when you go far enough to the right, you meet the same idiots coming around from the left." -- Clint Eastwood ***
I turn off a lot of the special attacks on my pets I keep forgetting how does the self res work on cats? sometimes when I get the free second in a fight to res them the place in the book fades away
The heck with fumbling through the spellbook for something. I generally keep growl, cower, and two other abilities that I want more control over on the petbar(aoe abilities for example).
I made macros for most everything else and placed them on a separate bar so they're easy to find. That's where stuff like the self rez, roar of sacrifice, last stand, etc end up. I have another macro I use that makes sure they're all turned off. That way I can decide when best to use them.
I’ll add that the melee attack issue for hunters themselves is something we keep discussing. While we are unlikely to go back to a melee-focused build for hunters, we might consider a model where hunters don’t run away most of the time but switch to melee attacks – perhaps even a single punishing attack on a cooldown before the hunter Disengaged or whatever.
They need to give us something that amounts to a combination of thunderstorm and blink; snare removal/short immunity and a nice knockback. I don't care if the graphic is the hunter shitting a chicken, we need something like that on top of disengage.
We downed XT Hardmode (10 man) and I got my Magnetized Projectile Emitter, finally replacing my sorry ass Avalanche (my guild's 25 man progress has been destroyed by the summer... but our 10 man is rocking). Just needed to yell that from the mountaintops.
Hunters who can learn fight mechanics and consistently perform deserve spots in raids. Yeah, so BM isn't top of the charts. So what? Are you really so desperately close to losing fights that one person's (minor) difference in DPS is causing failure? Good luck on proving that BM hunters are dumber or worse players than others, especially when blizzard inevitably releases a new patch that changes tree balance again.
It's not a minor difference in DPS, it's a huge difference in DPS. That's the problem.
Not that I've seen, and the difference is being addressed in the next patch.
I'd like to know what kind of numbers you're seeing from a BM spec, and then from a respectively geared SV or MM Hunter in the same raid. Sorry, but you're playing with bad Hunters, if you're keeping pace as a BM Hunter. What "you've seen" is a nice little niched opinion that is a drop in the ocean of maths stating the current issues/short-comings of the BM spec.
I understand that it's a game, and the object of the game is to have fun, but "middle of the pack" is bullshit, and you're a wasted raid slot, when you should be running top if not top-3 for a majority of the Ulduar fights. It's the spec's fault, not yours, but still your fault for choosing it. If you're beating out other Hunters who are using SV or MM specs, They ARE bad players.. Or you out-gear them to high hell.
tl;dr: Useful Hunter thread says stop speccing BM until it's fixed, or have fun not giving your guild the full potential of your class.
In my guild, and every raiding guild i've been in, if you're not specced right, they will politely ask you to change your spec. The "class leader" or anyone dealing good dps will usually give you advice on how to perform optimally. If you ignore this advice, you stop seeing raid time. No one likes seeing someone wasting the raid's time, if you're hung up on your lovey spec go to a casual guild
whether you think so or not, operating optimally makes differences in raids, even 25man
you don't kill that add fast enough, so it kills a healer, or a tank has one more thing to worry about, everything adds up. Raiding isn't supposed to be a coattail chauffeur
<- SV hunter who is not having trouble out DPSing BM.
I'll concede your BM math for sake of argument, which was not the original point of this conversation...
I don't think BM deserves a spot in raids, it's too easy. Its main function is to be awesome with leveling, and it is, but i think making MM and SV difficult within reason allows blizz to seperate the skilled from the unskilled
'X spec is easier than Y spec, so player who chooses X is a "less skilled" player' is complete bullshit. Rotations are easy (EDIT: with the exception of john madden feral druid and crazy lock builds). Situational awareness is hard, and what makes a truly good raider. All those BM hunters topping the raid meters in BC were less skilled? No, they took the spec because it was tops math-wise.
Asuma on
"Extremism is so easy. You've got your position, and that's it. It doesn't take much thought. And when you go far enough to the right, you meet the same idiots coming around from the left." -- Clint Eastwood ***
Eh, it's not a truly big deal to put it on the pet bar. Just take all the things off you never turn off anyway, like the base + focus attacks.
EDIT: They really should just delete that "ability" altogether. :P
Except you only get 4 slots for pet abilities.
Not that I'm saying it's not annoying, but aside from growl, what else are you constantly turning on and off that you have to put it on the bar (to avoid the auto-cast bug)?
Asuma on
"Extremism is so easy. You've got your position, and that's it. It doesn't take much thought. And when you go far enough to the right, you meet the same idiots coming around from the left." -- Clint Eastwood ***
It was part of the whole "which spec is harder/est" discussion last page which was sparked by Cunty.
Asuma on
"Extremism is so easy. You've got your position, and that's it. It doesn't take much thought. And when you go far enough to the right, you meet the same idiots coming around from the left." -- Clint Eastwood ***
But as far as I noticed, no one argued anything like that. The chief argument has been that the more difficult specs deserve a better maximum payoff for their higher "skill cap," which doesn't seem like bullshit.
I'll concede your BM math for sake of argument, which was not the original point of this conversation...
You don't have to concede anything, dawg -- BM doing substantially lower DPS [by several thousand DPS, in ideal situations] is a known fact. You could try to refute it, but you could also spend your time rolling a boulder up the side of a mountain.
But as far as I noticed, no one argued anything like that. The chief argument has been that the more difficult specs deserve a better maximum payoff for their higher "skill cap," which doesn't seem like bullshit.
I don't think BM deserves a spot in raids, it's too easy. Its main function is to be awesome with leveling, and it is, but i think making MM and SV difficult within reason allows blizz to seperate the skilled from the unskilled
I don't really get this viewpoint. Please elaborate on how MM and SV are soooo much more complex or difficult compared to BM. Back when trapdancing was a big thing with SV maybe, but nowadays the difference in complexity is infinitesimal.
I am not seeing an argument over whether BM should or shouldn't do less damage (and I couldn't find that further down the page either, unless I'm being completely obtuse, in which case I apologize). As for more complex rotations deserving a better payoff, absolutely. They should do more maximum damage.
Asuma on
"Extremism is so easy. You've got your position, and that's it. It doesn't take much thought. And when you go far enough to the right, you meet the same idiots coming around from the left." -- Clint Eastwood ***
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
While it's true that Surv and MM have more complex rotations than BM, BM has the added annoyance of having to babysit your idiotic pet. With Surv and MM, if your pet dies it's all "meh", but if BM pet dies it's all "oh shit fuck".
I don't think BM deserves a spot in raids, it's too easy. Its main function is to be awesome with leveling, and it is, but i think making MM and SV difficult within reason allows blizz to seperate the skilled from the unskilled
I don't really get this viewpoint. Please elaborate on how MM and SV are soooo much more complex or difficult compared to BM. Back when trapdancing was a big thing with SV maybe, but nowadays the difference in complexity is infinitesimal.
I am not seeing an argument over whether BM should or shouldn't do less damage (and I couldn't find that further down the page either, unless I'm being completely obtuse, in which case I apologize). As for more complex rotations deserving a better payoff, absolutely. They should do more maximum damage.
I'll fill in the implicit words:
I don't think BM deserves a [high-DPS-capable] spot in raids, it's too easy. Its main function is to be awesome with leveling, and it is, but i think making MM and SV difficult within reason allows blizz [by balancing the payoff at the "optimal playing" end] to seperate the skilled [MM and SV players] from the unskilled [MM and SV players] [with a wider skill/DPS gap]
Nothing in the pre-edited post was even close to 'X spec is easier than Y spec, so player who chooses X is a "less skilled" player' though. You just have to pay closer attention and read the context of the overall discussion in the last couple pages to see that it's about difficulty vs. reward.
While it's true that Surv and MM have more complex rotations than BM, BM has the added annoyance of having to babysit your idiotic pet. With Surv and MM, if your pet dies it's all "meh", but if BM pet dies it's all "oh shit fuck".
How much DPS does a survival or MM pet count for, though? The last time I really watched that stuff, which was admittedly before Ulduar, it was still around 20% (also keep in mind that wolves add a couple percentage worth of damage to the hunter). Losing that much DPS would generally take a surv/MM hunter from the top of the pack to the middle.
It's still painful to lose a pet as marks or SV, yeah. I think it's something like 20%, although I wouldn't be shocked if that's less with, say, an armor pen gem setup.
Fuck Mimiron hard mode, by the way... goddamn napalm shells...
I was pushing 2.3k dps as my friend's surv hunter last week, basically reVerse's priority list but BA over ES. I don't know your gear or talent spec, but I think the hunter was cookie cutter raid surv with a mix of heroic, emblem, and naxx/os/voa 10 gear.
And I was having a hell of a time remembering to KS, heh.
I was pushing 2.3k dps as my friend's surv hunter last week, basically reVerse's priority list but BA over ES. I don't know your gear or talent spec, but I think the hunter was cookie cutter raid surv with a mix of heroic, emblem, and naxx/os/voa 10 gear.
And I was having a hell of a time remembering to KS, heh.
Black Arrow universally takes priority over Explosive Shot, except when the mob has too little HP left for the +6% damage from Black Arrow to be more than however much damage you could've squeezed out of that single GCD otherwise. So basically, go with BA first anytime the mob isn't either about to die [so like <30% HP on trash mobs] or in Flavour Countryâ„¢ [boss with <20% HP].
That was my assumption, +6% for everything being better than getting Explosive off a gcd earlier, was a bit puzzled that reVerse's list had BA under ES.
Arrath on
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
Those priorities are from EJ. I personally fire BA before ES, but I've always done things more from "this makes more sense" point of view rather than "this is what the math says" point of view.
I was pushing 2.3k dps as my friend's surv hunter last week, basically reVerse's priority list but BA over ES. I don't know your gear or talent spec, but I think the hunter was cookie cutter raid surv with a mix of heroic, emblem, and naxx/os/voa 10 gear.
And I was having a hell of a time remembering to KS, heh.
Black Arrow universally takes priority over Explosive Shot, except when the mob has too little HP left for the +6% damage from Black Arrow to be more than however much damage you could've squeezed out of that single GCD otherwise. So basically, go with BA first anytime the mob isn't either about to die [so like <30% HP on trash mobs] or in Flavour Countryâ„¢ [boss with <20% HP].
I'd go with BA first up until <10% so that KS gets an extra kick, unless it's Freya or something squishy.
Those priorities are from EJ. I personally fire BA before ES, but I've always done things more from "this makes more sense" point of view rather than "this is what the math says" point of view.
I would say that math makes the most sense. :P
Hamurabi on
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Those priorities are from EJ. I personally fire BA before ES, but I've always done things more from "this makes more sense" point of view rather than "this is what the math says" point of view.
Those priorities are from EJ. I personally fire BA before ES, but I've always done things more from "this makes more sense" point of view rather than "this is what the math says" point of view.
I'm sorry, but no, a Priority system is not the same thing as a rotation.
Go back to the BC days where steady shot clipped auto-shots, that was a rotation, it had rhythm and required precision to make it work. Particularly for non-BM hunters as you had to weave your specials between auto-shots.
Now its considerably less tedious, you just work your way down a list of shots that have their own CDs (except SSting which is the obligatory DoT for a dps class).
I'm sorry, but no, a Priority system is not the same thing as a rotation.
Go back to the BC days where steady shot clipped auto-shots, that was a rotation, it had rhythm and required precision to make it work. Particularly for non-BM hunters as you had to weave your specials between auto-shots.
Now its considerably less tedious, you just work your way down a list of shots that have their own CDs (except SSting which is the obligatory DoT for a dps class).
I use the term "rotation" generically, personally.
Also, hunters in BC had, like, the opposite of a "rotation" in any sense of the word -- they spammed one button that did all the work for them. Shit, I bound mine to MousewheelDown.
Posts
Sort of like that ammo change.
That never happened.
At least not the way they had originally planned, but totally plan on doing it that way soon.
EDIT: They really should just delete that "ability" altogether. :P
I made macros for most everything else and placed them on a separate bar so they're easy to find. That's where stuff like the self rez, roar of sacrifice, last stand, etc end up. I have another macro I use that makes sure they're all turned off. That way I can decide when best to use them.
They need to give us something that amounts to a combination of thunderstorm and blink; snare removal/short immunity and a nice knockback. I don't care if the graphic is the hunter shitting a chicken, we need something like that on top of disengage.
Hahaha, this is the best summary ever
I'd like to know what kind of numbers you're seeing from a BM spec, and then from a respectively geared SV or MM Hunter in the same raid. Sorry, but you're playing with bad Hunters, if you're keeping pace as a BM Hunter. What "you've seen" is a nice little niched opinion that is a drop in the ocean of maths stating the current issues/short-comings of the BM spec.
I understand that it's a game, and the object of the game is to have fun, but "middle of the pack" is bullshit, and you're a wasted raid slot, when you should be running top if not top-3 for a majority of the Ulduar fights. It's the spec's fault, not yours, but still your fault for choosing it. If you're beating out other Hunters who are using SV or MM specs, They ARE bad players.. Or you out-gear them to high hell.
tl;dr: Useful Hunter thread says stop speccing BM until it's fixed, or have fun not giving your guild the full potential of your class.
First Blood 85 Priest 80 Mage 85 Paladin 83 Druid 80 DK 85 Huntard 85 Shaman
"Tardo Wan" sounds like a Jedi that required 436 years to train and then killed himself by looking into his lightsaber while turning it on."
whether you think so or not, operating optimally makes differences in raids, even 25man
you don't kill that add fast enough, so it kills a healer, or a tank has one more thing to worry about, everything adds up. Raiding isn't supposed to be a coattail chauffeur
I'll concede your BM math for sake of argument, which was not the original point of this conversation...
'X spec is easier than Y spec, so player who chooses X is a "less skilled" player' is complete bullshit. Rotations are easy (EDIT: with the exception of john madden feral druid and crazy lock builds). Situational awareness is hard, and what makes a truly good raider. All those BM hunters topping the raid meters in BC were less skilled? No, they took the spec because it was tops math-wise.
Not that I'm saying it's not annoying, but aside from growl, what else are you constantly turning on and off that you have to put it on the bar (to avoid the auto-cast bug)?
You don't have to concede anything, dawg -- BM doing substantially lower DPS [by several thousand DPS, in ideal situations] is a known fact. You could try to refute it, but you could also spend your time rolling a boulder up the side of a mountain.
This was the exchange:
I am not seeing an argument over whether BM should or shouldn't do less damage (and I couldn't find that further down the page either, unless I'm being completely obtuse, in which case I apologize). As for more complex rotations deserving a better payoff, absolutely. They should do more maximum damage.
First Blood 85 Priest 80 Mage 85 Paladin 83 Druid 80 DK 85 Huntard 85 Shaman
"Tardo Wan" sounds like a Jedi that required 436 years to train and then killed himself by looking into his lightsaber while turning it on."
How much DPS does a survival or MM pet count for, though? The last time I really watched that stuff, which was admittedly before Ulduar, it was still around 20% (also keep in mind that wolves add a couple percentage worth of damage to the hunter). Losing that much DPS would generally take a surv/MM hunter from the top of the pack to the middle.
Fuck Mimiron hard mode, by the way... goddamn napalm shells...
Anyway, Survival doesn't have a rotation, they have priorities. KS>ES>BA>AiS/MS>SSting>SShot.
Rotation, priorities, sequence, its all the same. i am have over 1700 DPS.
And I was having a hell of a time remembering to KS, heh.
Black Arrow universally takes priority over Explosive Shot, except when the mob has too little HP left for the +6% damage from Black Arrow to be more than however much damage you could've squeezed out of that single GCD otherwise. So basically, go with BA first anytime the mob isn't either about to die [so like <30% HP on trash mobs] or in Flavour Countryâ„¢ [boss with <20% HP].
I'd go with BA first up until <10% so that KS gets an extra kick, unless it's Freya or something squishy.
I would say that math makes the most sense. :P
Nah, math is a nonsensical series of numbers.
True story. I seen it.
Go back to the BC days where steady shot clipped auto-shots, that was a rotation, it had rhythm and required precision to make it work. Particularly for non-BM hunters as you had to weave your specials between auto-shots.
Now its considerably less tedious, you just work your way down a list of shots that have their own CDs (except SSting which is the obligatory DoT for a dps class).
Cyriously Lvl 80 Hunter (Marksman) - Baelgun
I use the term "rotation" generically, personally.
Also, hunters in BC had, like, the opposite of a "rotation" in any sense of the word -- they spammed one button that did all the work for them. Shit, I bound mine to MousewheelDown.
Hodir's amazing, especially as marks. Oh god, the bleed damage...