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Jumpgate Evolution - put that joystick to use, son.

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  • DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited June 2009
    No, it's about the same size as most fantasy MMOs. And there are so many fantasy MMOs you can't even keep track of them all. Anything that isn't fantasy is niche, regardless of subscription count. And most fantasy games fall into their own specific niche as well.

    I just don't think you understand the meaning of a niche market

    Unknown User on
  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    You know, I don't even think it's relevant discussing what is or is not niche any more. Seriously, we've been debating "NICHE!" and "NOT NICHE!" for days without saying anything important at all.

    I mean, you want a definition, here it is: "A niche market is a focused targetable portion (subset) of a market." (Wikipedia)

    By that definition, Warcraft is a niche game, since it targets the MMO portion of the games industry.

    So really, please, can we drop the "niche" argument? Not only is it as silly as the "item loss sux/item loss rox" argument has become, it's actually less helpful.

    Imperfect on
  • NeliNeli Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    So I hear you shoot lasers in this game

    there better also be missiles:x

    Neli on
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  • JeixJeix Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Neli wrote: »
    So I hear you shoot lasers in this game

    there better also be missiles:x

    Not only is there missiles but also mortars in space. Personally I want a weapon that shoots cupcakes.

    Jeix on
  • hazywaterhazywater Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I don't know, semantics are pretty fun to argue

    hazywater on
    Hrin - Eve Online
  • HembotHembot Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    The argument of EvE's population vs. WoW's population fails only because we are considering the fantasy 3rd PoV genre as mainstream. Therefore you should consider EvE vs WoW + AoC + WAR + LotR + Aion (4 mil in Asia?) + DAoC + just about every game but Planetside. So it ends up being more like 200k vs. 20 million.

    Since most people I knew had multiple accts and I had 2 myself it's probably more like 150k for EvE.

    There's nothing wrong with being a niche game. In fact, to pull off something that isn't mainstream and not only sustain yourself but constantly revolutionize a complex yet ultimately static environment is absolutely amazing. EvE's learning curve is so high that increased complexity makes it more difficult for most people to jump into the sandbox. If it was 3rd person GTA style (closer to standard MMO's) I'd see people flocking to it.

    Instead dogfights involve understanding your guns, orbital distance and velocity in relation to your opposition's. It's very much a niche game because in EvE battle isn't twitch based. It requires careful planning and often times sitting around doing nothing but chatting with your mates.

    JGE is going to be a niche game and even if BP gives it a good run for it's money I think we're going to see two very great games with a long future.

    Hembot on
  • DemiurgeDemiurge Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    So there was reportedly a devchat two days ago, any news on that? Did anyone ask "when does the fucking beta start?"

    Demiurge on
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  • AddaAdda LondonRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Demiurge wrote: »
    So there was reportedly a devchat two days ago, any news on that? Did anyone ask "when does the fucking beta start?"

    found the transcribe and the sound file

    Adda on
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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Interesting although really I wish we had some more "hard" info a this point. A lot of it seems to be "Well, we're not really sure. We're not taking anything off the table. *List of things that they're considering*"

    Which is cool and all, info about what's on the table is better than no info at all, but I kind of thought we'd have some more hard information at this point. No mention of even a hopeful start date for open beta either.

    If you read that thread there's a guy who makes a trollish post that's all doom and gloom and his user name is Sephiroth. I mean I'm hardly the king of awesome user names but isn't there a rule that if your name is a Final Fantasy reference, especially that reference in particular that it's automatically impossible to take anything you say seriously?

    HappylilElf on
  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I don't think the developers themselves have made all the decisions yet and that is why they haven't given us any conclusive details of...well anything.

    Zzulu on
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  • DemiurgeDemiurge Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I just hope they make it so death means losing your ship, I don't see how they can have a sustainable economy otherwise.

    Demiurge on
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  • GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    You already know it doesn't, stop restarting the fucking flamewar that's killed the thread three times already.

    Glal on
  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Well, to be fair, the flamewars RESTARTED the thread - we really don't have anything else to talk about.

    It's everyone getting so angry they throw up their hands and go "Augh!" and walk off that kills the thread every time. =)

    Imperfect on
  • GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Unfortunately the flamewars also tend to have nothing to do with Jumpgate, which is why people walk off.

    Glal on
  • DemiurgeDemiurge Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Meh, I'm hoping they change their minds :P Really though, I'm just slighted that I bought a joystick when I signed up for the beta months ago and I still can't play :?

    Demiurge on
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  • HuggyBearHuggyBear Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    More economy up dates: It seems they're moving to a player driven economy, so we're looking at the mining and trader rolls becoming more central to the core game.
    JGER: We’ve heard in recent months, that you are aiming for an economy that is focused primarily on generating demand from players always wanting the next ‘better’ item. Could you give a bit more information on the various elements that contribute toward this concept to make it function alongside other game systems? And what exactly encouraged you to make this drastic redesign on the economy compared to the initial one proposed in 2008?





    Hermann: Well, it’s really not very different than how economies work in real life. The whole concept of modern economics is based on people getting the next better thing, even if they don’t actually need it. So it’s really just latching on to that human tendency. It actually works to enhance most other game systems. In MMOs you kind of need to feel that your time investment is going to be rewarded with the next “big thing” which could be defeating an enemy, seeing a new area of space or fighting against other people. But you really want to do these things in new ships with new equipment to keep the experience fresh.

    JGER: In an economy that is kept going on players' demand for the next ‘better’ item, what steps are you taking to create an incentive for players to want better items naturally, whilst still maintaining the crucial balance between player ability vs. equipment performance, to ensure that higher level pilots can’t out perform newer players due to equipment advantage alone?


    Hermann: The line that we do not cross is that you have to aim and fire and in this way the difference in skill plays a large role, as does the power of equipment. As people play more, they naturally get more powerful equipment and thus at the mid and high level of the game players have similarly powered equipment. That being said it is possible for lower level pilots to defeat higher level pilots if their skill is high enough. We don’t “cheat” in hitting or damage. That is, higher level players don’t artificially do more or receive less damage, nor do they hit more often or are more difficult to hit.





    JGER: An important part of any substantial MMO player based economy, is that demand for both manufacturing goods as well as the finished items to be in steady demand throughout the day, to ensure that established player have an incentive to get involved whilst making the market accessible to new budding producers/manufacturers to still make a living. Where do you personally see this demand coming from when a proportion of the new consumers joining the universe, will themselves become producers/manufacturers and resource harvesters flooding the market even more?



    Hermann: A good way to solve the above problem is to make sure that the simple-to-get commodities (or ore) are required for higher level crafting items. To deal with the flood of raw materials, you have to make sure the higher level items require significantly more raw materials than low level items. In the end it’s all about balance. You want to make sure that low level players can contribute to the economy, but that high level players have something to achieve.



    JGER: With this in mind, the production system apparently works on the principle of “produce to advance”; it will likely be a matter of days if not hours (if the game is a huge hit on day one) after launch that the market will be absolutely flooded with 100+ copies of every item as some players attempt to quickly rush to the end of the production trees. Do you have any concerns about the economy system regarding flooding of the market with by-products of producers efforts to advance quickly removing any room for newer pilots to get involved before the games even got started? And if so, how do you expect to get past this problem?


    Hermann: Again I would look at real world economies. I agree that if you have a flood of people, you will get a glut of raw materials. This will, in turn, drive the price down and then cause people to look for alternate materials to trade in which then reduced to amount of raw materials, driving the price back up. Another thing to keep in mind is that we can control the rate at which raw materials enter the game, regardless of the number of players. Finally, remember that not all players are playing on one server, so we can make sure that the availability of raw materials per shard is reasonable so as not to destroy the economy.




    JGER: Moving away from the production demand concept, what role do you consider miners will play within the new economy concept? Originally in 2008, miners were put forward as the very glue that holds the universe together and allow manufacturers to make the useful higher tier equipment and ships that can only be obtained through production, making a real impact on the universe itself. This has obviously changed a bit since then, so to what extent has the role of miner been changed, and what exactly caused these changes?

    Hermann: Well, it hasn’t changed that much. All manufactured items in the game require some amount of raw material, or compound which is made from raw materials and mining is the core of that system. That being said you need to have multiple sources of items in the game: missions, loot, stores and so on. I think, however, that manufactured items will play a larger role in JGE than they do in many traditional MMOs since mining and space games have such a rich history.



    JGER: Will ‘miner’ still be a full-time profession with long term incentive to focus on as it was originally presented, or is it now more of side path to follow in between breaks in combat? If they are still a viable long term profession to follow exclusively, then what sort of impact will they have on the game universe through their actions, and what incentives are you considering on introducing to keep these players interested?



    Hermann: Absolutely. There are people who love harvesting and gathering resources and we are constantly looking for ways to reward that kind of game play. For example, in addition to selling raw materials to other players or manufacturing items, we plan on making a station demand for ore (kind of long term faction missions), requiring ore for maintaining battlestations and other things as well. We want to make sure that gathering raw materials is an integral part of the game.



    JGER: With the economy sounding less ‘alive’, and more stagnant from initial information on what has changed recently, there has been a rising concern regarding the role ‘truckers’ will play within the economy system. How do ‘truckers’ currently stand within the current concept being considered, and what sort of impact may they have on the universe itself through their actions?



    Hermann: Well, I actually think the changes make the economy more alive. What we have done is moved away from an AI-based economy to a player-driven economy. Unlike most MMOs, items in Jumpgate Evolution have positional value. If an item is put on the auction house in Solrain core, then when it is bought, you have to go pick it up there. Also, items are built at fixed locations in space. This means that we can create scenarios where to build a valuable engine might require a lot of raw materials which must be harvested from a long distance away and then transported to the station where the manufacturing facility is. The larger cargo vessels will be able to move much greater quantities much faster and in so doing be able to profit from this. We can also make station demand such that it’s worthwhile for players to move things around.


    JGER: What kind of in-game incentives are being considered for the truckers to keep them interested in the game long term? Will there be systems in place similar to those advertised in early 2008, where haulers feed automated factory production for credit/experience reward? Or have you decided to go down another route since then in how to retain haulers?


    Hermann: Giving people credit for providing stations or factories with goods is a fairly easy way to incentivize that kind of behaviour. My hope, however, is that we can create a more realistic supply-demand system which is created and maintained by the players themselves. This way we don’t have to worry about things like inflation nearly as much.



    JGER: One of the obvious requirements for a economy system that is kept going by players constant desire or enforced need to get the next ‘better’ item, is that new items are regularly introduced into the game at a pace players dictate themselves through their ability to grind. Now this is clearly a problem factor for you and your team, as we all know typically players will exhaust content quicker then developers can add it. So what steps are you currently considering to be able to introduce new equipment to the game at a pace quick enough in order to keep manufacturers interested and playing the game beyond their first 30 days on signup? (Also, how will you address shards where manufacturers are scarcer or advancing slower then other shards, where the introduction of newer better equipment would destabilise the balance in place on that server?)



    Hermann: This is a constant problem for MMOs, however they do tend to normalize themselves. People are pretty smart at identifying market opportunities. I can tell you that if there is high demand for a raw material or a rare item, there will be people who will exploit that for short term profit. Developers will never be able to add content faster than the best players can consume it. This is why I think you have to have repeatable mechanics that are fun – for example high end PvP and PvE. As a developer you have to make sure you have systems which can be played for many hours without causing boredom among the more hard core players. Things like new ships and items are pretty easy to add. New areas take more time and massive new features take much more time. I think as long as you keep adding interesting new content, players will wait some amount of time for it, or at least return once it’s there.



    JGER: Lastly on the economy, will there be any form of NPC markets integrated into the stations themselves, which will bypass the entire player economy aspect by allowing players to buy adequate equipment directly on their doorstep for cheap prices? It was mentioned in 2008 that such mechanics had been firmly removed from the game in order to focus on the player element solely, but if it may be reintroduced what steps are being taken to ensure that the NPC market stocks do not completely destabilise any incentive to get involved in the player economy, if the player market is already over flooded with stock due to lack of consistent demand?



    Hermann: The stations do sell basic equipment which is level appropriate, but the best stuff will come from exploring, fighting and manufacturing. Those are really the behaviours we want to reward since they are more fun than just sitting around a station. Most MMOs have solved this problem to one degree or another. You can always buy basic stuff from NPC vendors, but it’s usually not as good as other stuff. You can also always sell to NPCs but usually at a cost far below the value to another player. As you say, we want to encourage people to trade with other people, but we certainly don’t block on it.



    JGER: How modular is the game to change in regards to the economy system, if testing reveals that the initial concept we’re shown when beta starts does not appeal to hardly anyone compared to the initial concept proposed?



    Hermann: We are very strong believers in testing and reacting. I can tell you that many features in the game have been radically changed because of testing results and the economy is no exception. There is no point in keeping a feature or method of implementation if no one likes it. We are not married to our ideas. When testing shows that an idea is not good it will get changed and tested until it makes the game fun.



    JGER: And how long will feedback be gathered once beta starts, before any firm decision is made regarding what does and doesn’t appeal? (if it is considered at all)


    Hermann: As long as it takes J. I suspect that feedback will be gathered long after beta ends and changes will be made continuously. Honestly if the game is not radically different 4 or 5 years after release I will be very surprised. The whole beauty of MMOs is that you can change them! I don’t think the core of the game, action space-combat, will change; I expect additions and changes that no one at this time can imagine; and most of that will come from player feedback.

    Spurce: http://www.jgeradio.com/the-news/jge-news/45-project-news/75-jgeradio-exclusive-hermann-peterscheck-on-the-jumpgate-evolution-economy.html

    HuggyBear on
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  • AddaAdda LondonRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Some nice info there, thanks for the link.

    Adda on
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  • Fame_ThrowaFame_Throwa Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Has there been any more information on this? Amazon shows a release date of September 29, but I haven't seen any significant new information on the net. Nothing on Beta, gameplay, anything.

    Fame_Throwa on
  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Nothing good, no. There's been no official communications since late July, and the forums are overflowing with nerd rage. NetDevil's doing a shite job at a) communicating with its community, and b) listening to their wishes, it seems.

    I'm currently absolutely not thrilled at the prospects this game has.

    Imperfect on
  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Yeah they're wasting whatever buzz there was about this game and letting it fade.

    It probably hints at the fact that there was some catastrophy within development that we haven't learned of yet (and maybe never will).

    Because...like, the release they mentioned is right around the corner.

    Zzulu on
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  • The Count Of Midget FistoThe Count Of Midget Fisto Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    It's a shame really I was looking forward to this game.

    The Count Of Midget Fisto on
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  • rehtonAesoohCrehtonAesoohC Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Man... I totally was looking forward to it too!

    Looks like it's gonna get Vanguard'd.

    rehtonAesoohC on
    Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
  • DemiurgeDemiurge Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Yeah I'd pretty much forgotten about this by now, unless they drop a bomb of awesome on us very soon I can see this just fading into obscurity.

    Demiurge on
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  • KotenkKotenk Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
  • Bendery It Like BeckhamBendery It Like Beckham Hopeless Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I played this at PaX, it was pretty good. I also talked with the PR manager, for like 45 minutes and will be in contact with her via email. About lots of game mechanics and how the beta is going to work.

    What I can say: They are still in friends and family alpha, the current build looks promising. They plan on expanding the game based on the opinion of the community after release and during beta.

    They want large guilds.

    Bendery It Like Beckham on
  • DemiurgeDemiurge Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Weren't you the one submitting the PA guild beta application?

    Demiurge on
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  • WrenWren ninja_bird Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    this game should be out sometime in 2011

    Wren on
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  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    20...11?

    Holy shit, really? That long?

    I mean, are you being funny, or is that the actual date?

    Imperfect on
  • WrenWren ninja_bird Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I'm joking.

    its actually 2010. for now

    still hella long time considering this was supposed to be out during the summer and it hasn't even reached closed beta stage yet

    Wren on
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  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    They did a really bad job of promoting this MMO as a beta months ago and ended up pushing back the whole thing by a long period of time.

    It's bad enough to base your entire marketing campaign off of a beta, it's even worse when you do so and then fail to deliver on a beta.

    They've clearly lost a lot of the spark they had ignited if the official forums are any indicator.

    The game has potential but it's not going to be a major player unless they come out with some features we haven't yet been told about.

    Jasconius on
  • ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    well, we're not exactly far from 2010 and they're still in family and friends alpha testing.

    I don't think anyone knows when this game will be out :o

    I wouldn't say 2011 is impossible, but in the summer of 2010 seems more realistic, unless they fuck up again.

    Zzulu on
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  • Bendery It Like BeckhamBendery It Like Beckham Hopeless Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Demiurge wrote: »
    Weren't you the one submitting the PA guild beta application?

    Yes, and I'm still handling the beta application thingy.
    Jasconius wrote: »
    They did a really bad job of promoting this MMO as a beta months ago and ended up pushing back the whole thing by a long period of time.

    It's bad enough to base your entire marketing campaign off of a beta, it's even worse when you do so and then fail to deliver on a beta.

    They've clearly lost a lot of the spark they had ignited if the official forums are any indicator.

    The game has potential but it's not going to be a major player unless they come out with some features we haven't yet been told about.


    I talked with her about that, and they said they some people made some pretty big promises that they were not able to keep before they planned on releasing closed beta. They wanted to try and implement these things before they actually launched, and it took more time than they expected. She said that they had to back off and stop hyping because of some issues she was not at liberty to discuss (licensing? dev disputes? IDK) and that they solved that problem. They want to continue, but with caution, as to not disappoint.

    Bendery It Like Beckham on
  • rehtonAesoohCrehtonAesoohC Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    WTB information.

    rehtonAesoohC on
    Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
  • ImperfectImperfect Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    At this point it's looking like it's going to be Earth and Beyond with instanced PvP deathmatches that don't affect anything beyond an internal point-counter, like WoW.

    At least, that's all the indication we've been given.

    Imperfect on
  • Shorn Scrotum ManShorn Scrotum Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Well, good to know I can give the game a miss then.

    Shorn Scrotum Man on
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  • hazywaterhazywater Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    and our hopes turn to the second space sim MMO, dark-something

    hazywater on
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  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I'm still fairly excited about this game. It keeps dropping off my radar but I figure I'm in no rush for it to come out. I'm a huge fan of EvE but always wanted a more shooty feeling game and i think this (while maybe not reaching the scope of eve) will at least fill that niche.

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  • Shorn Scrotum ManShorn Scrotum Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Not near the scope?

    With this game you'll get a more shooty feeling ratting simulator.

    Shorn Scrotum Man on
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  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I guess I'm referring more to the size of the game. Since Jumpgate will be using multiple shard servers instead of one shard they don't need the universe to be as vast as eve or they won't have the players to fill it.

    So instead of it taking hours sometimes to travel across the universe I don't think that will be an issue with jumpgate.

    I could be completely wrong but i get the impression the game will be smaller in that respect to have more player interactions.

    It will be interesting to see regardless.

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  • SkyCaptainSkyCaptain IndianaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I still think it should have permanent ship loss. :P

    SkyCaptain on
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