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Pre-Fight Debate: Bracket 1

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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Why would Mary deflect the Joker's flower? It's only harmless water, right? WRONG OH GOD IT'S ACID AND OH JESUS IT'S EATING YOUR FACE I DID NOT EXPECT THIS AT ALL WHY GOD WHY.

    A gun? Yes, a gun. A gun that probably looks like a toy gun. Is that a toy gun? NO! WRONG! YOU HAVE A FLAG IN YOUR HEAD NOW! A POISONED FLAG! OH THE HUMANITY! AND IT EXPLODES, TOO, POSSIBLY, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE.

    Where is my opponent oh god what is that smell HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA dead.

    The only way Typhoid Mary can sneak up on the Daredevil is because she knows him. She doesn't know the Joker, and, combined with his insanity, would make him completely impossible to detect.

    The Joker's perfectly content to sit his time out and set some elaborate trap using kitchen utensils.

    Basically, he will not directly confront Typhoid Mary. If he does, he'll do it on his own terms, and he'll lure her to him, and then kill her. Horrendously.

    When Joker gets a chance to use his toys it is never really in a situation like this. This is a direct fight between the two of them, they will both be hostile and suspicious of the other from the beginning.

    Mary would be foolish to even let Joker get close enough to her in order to spray her with the flower, let alone get sprayed with whatever the contents are.

    For as much of an evil genious the Joker is he doesn't really have any way to counter the offensive abilities of Mary. She on the other hand has defense on her side by being able to use her telekenisis to protect herself and to burn away any of the laughing gas, which would not burn up all the air in the room unless the two of them were fighting inside a bubble or deep in a cave.

    Marathon on
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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Joker fucked a whole bunch of people up in Aztek. He was stopped by Aztek and Batman.

    Usually when the Joker fights another hero, Batman intervenes.

    And I was under the impression that someone needs to be focused a bit to use telekinesis, which doesn't help you when you're surprised by almost getting your eye poked out by a gun around the corner, that will fire almost immediately.

    He surprised Barbara Gordon pretty thoroughly. I would think that Batgirl's reflexes and mental fortitude are at least as well-developed as Typhoid Mary's.

    Spectre-x on
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    It's easy to get the drop on someone who is not expecting it and has their guard down. This will not be the case in these fights. It's two on two and both of them will be on guard from the start.

    Marathon on
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    GABBO GABBO GABBOGABBO GABBO GABBO Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Most of the arguments against the Joker also show a catastrophic unfaimilarity with the Clown Prince of Crime.

    Oh bullshit. He's one of the most well-known comic book villains in the history of the medium. Now you're just making shit up.

    GABBO GABBO GABBO on
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    GABBO GABBO GABBOGABBO GABBO GABBO Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:

    He surprised Barbara Gordon pretty thoroughly. I would think that Batgirl's reflexes and mental fortitude are at least as well-developed as Typhoid Mary's.

    Awesome how you fail to point out that he surprised Barbara Gordon by showing up at her house while she was hanging out in her fucking pajamas.

    GABBO GABBO GABBO on
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    bobgorilabobgorila Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Seriously, EMPs.

    They can kill robots, so they can.

    bobgorila on
    I like my women how I like my coffee.

    Anally.
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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Marathon wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Why would Mary deflect the Joker's flower? It's only harmless water, right? WRONG OH GOD IT'S ACID AND OH JESUS IT'S EATING YOUR FACE I DID NOT EXPECT THIS AT ALL WHY GOD WHY.

    A gun? Yes, a gun. A gun that probably looks like a toy gun. Is that a toy gun? NO! WRONG! YOU HAVE A FLAG IN YOUR HEAD NOW! A POISONED FLAG! OH THE HUMANITY! AND IT EXPLODES, TOO, POSSIBLY, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE.

    Where is my opponent oh god what is that smell HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA dead.

    The only way Typhoid Mary can sneak up on the Daredevil is because she knows him. She doesn't know the Joker, and, combined with his insanity, would make him completely impossible to detect.

    The Joker's perfectly content to sit his time out and set some elaborate trap using kitchen utensils.

    Basically, he will not directly confront Typhoid Mary. If he does, he'll do it on his own terms, and he'll lure her to him, and then kill her. Horrendously.

    When Joker gets a chance to use his toys it is never really in a situation like this. This is a direct fight between the two of them, they will both be hostile and suspicious of the other from the beginning.

    Mary would be foolish to even let Joker get close enough to her in order to spray her with the flower, let alone get sprayed with whatever the contents are.

    For as much of an evil genious the Joker is he doesn't really have any way to counter the offensive abilities of Mary. She on the other hand has defense on her side by being able to use her telekenisis to protect herself and to burn away any of the laughing gas, which would not burn up all the air in the room unless the two of them were fighting inside a bubble or deep in a cave.

    You're tremendously late with that.

    Regardless of the fact that they will be wary of each other, the Joker can still easily set traps for Mary in the dense, dark alleys of the battleground, probably even inside the buildings.

    Spectre-x on
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    BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    As much as I love Joker, I gotta give this one to Mary. She just has more formidable powers, Joker could get the drop on her but there's much more likely a chance of her getting the drop on him, or just flat-out killing him.

    Blankspace on
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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Manifest wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Most of the arguments against the Joker also show a catastrophic unfaimilarity with the Clown Prince of Crime.

    Oh bullshit. He's one of the most well-known comic book villains in the history of the medium. Now you're just making shit up.

    And yet people claim that he will just walk up to her out in the open to squirt acid into her face.

    When that's not his thing unless he actually knows them.

    He's insane, not an idiot.

    Spectre-x on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Weren't you the one who said she'd get hit by the flower after expecting to be hit by water?

    robosagogo on
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    exitexit Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I could.. Kind of see it. Like him doing some ridiculous thing popping out of corners for a fraction of a second with some goofy cackle or outfit on, leading her to a joker bomb placed somewhere and having it go off under her feet or something.

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong about Mary, 'cause I've never read anything with her. Do either her ___kinesis have limits? And is she a messing around person?

    'Cause the Joker has traps, yes, but if she's a person to go "Oh, there he is" and just try to set him on fire/telekinesis him to death, then she wins. Either by plan, or by taunting, the Joker needs time to kill her. If she'll do it in a second, it goes to her.

    exit on
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    deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The last time she fought Daredevil she didn't even get close or throw a punch. She just lit him on fire.

    deadonthestreet on
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    BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Match A: Typhoid Mary; Joker has her outclassed in style and pure insanity but she has more training and much more formidable powers.
    Match B: Brainiac; While the maze is better suited to Riddlers' way of thinking I doubt it would stump a 12th level intellegence. Also, there is no way in hell that Brainiac hasn't EMP-proofed himself.
    Match C: Mandarin; While doomsday is a nigh-unstoppable juggernaut I think Mandarin's rings of power would be able to at least incapacitate him. Especially a combination of the Darkness and Disentigration rings.
    Match D: Silver Samurai; Venom's just out of luck here, with a weakness to fire while bieng stuck in a volcano Samurai will make quick work of Gargan.

    Blankspace on
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    HenslerHensler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Wow, of the fights in this bracket, I didnt expect the guy with a gun and some acid vs Daredevil's version of the Phoenix to be that controversial.

    Hensler on
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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    robosagogo wrote:
    Weren't you the one who said she'd get hit by the flower after expecting to be hit by water?

    uhm

    begone with your mouth-words

    type-words

    silence

    That was more to illustrate how he would catch her off-guard if it ever came to a physical confrontation.

    I'm just trying to say, people, that Typhoid Mary doesn't know what to look for with the Joker. The Joker? He doesn't have that problem. He is completely fine with not meeting his opponent until he's come up with something to fuck them up. All he has to do is wait and make his presence known after he's done rigging up a bomb or some shit, and then luring her into his trap.

    Spectre-x on
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    exitexit Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    How would he lure her?

    exit on
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Marathon wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Why would Mary deflect the Joker's flower? It's only harmless water, right? WRONG OH GOD IT'S ACID AND OH JESUS IT'S EATING YOUR FACE I DID NOT EXPECT THIS AT ALL WHY GOD WHY.

    A gun? Yes, a gun. A gun that probably looks like a toy gun. Is that a toy gun? NO! WRONG! YOU HAVE A FLAG IN YOUR HEAD NOW! A POISONED FLAG! OH THE HUMANITY! AND IT EXPLODES, TOO, POSSIBLY, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE.

    Where is my opponent oh god what is that smell HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA dead.

    The only way Typhoid Mary can sneak up on the Daredevil is because she knows him. She doesn't know the Joker, and, combined with his insanity, would make him completely impossible to detect.

    The Joker's perfectly content to sit his time out and set some elaborate trap using kitchen utensils.

    Basically, he will not directly confront Typhoid Mary. If he does, he'll do it on his own terms, and he'll lure her to him, and then kill her. Horrendously.

    When Joker gets a chance to use his toys it is never really in a situation like this. This is a direct fight between the two of them, they will both be hostile and suspicious of the other from the beginning.

    Mary would be foolish to even let Joker get close enough to her in order to spray her with the flower, let alone get sprayed with whatever the contents are.

    For as much of an evil genious the Joker is he doesn't really have any way to counter the offensive abilities of Mary. She on the other hand has defense on her side by being able to use her telekenisis to protect herself and to burn away any of the laughing gas, which would not burn up all the air in the room unless the two of them were fighting inside a bubble or deep in a cave.

    You're tremendously late with that.

    Regardless of the fact that they will be wary of each other, the Joker can still easily set traps for Mary in the dense, dark alleys of the battleground, probably even inside the buildings.

    Gee, forgive me for being away from an internet connection for a day. Damn my soul for visiting family. Late or not Joker will still have problems with her. As soon as she lays eyes on him he could be burning to death or stabed by a flying dagger.

    Marathon on
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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Hensler wrote:
    Wow, of the fights in this bracket, I didnt expect the guy with a gun and some acid vs Daredevil's version of the Phoenix to be that controversial.

    Typhoid Mary is not in the same league as Phoenix.

    Mary is playing an entirely different sport, possibly chess as opposed to Phoenix's Australian Football. She is also in a different city, in a different country, on a different continent.

    Spectre-x on
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    -SPI--SPI- Osaka, JapanRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    If this were a fair fight Typhoid would have it in the bag, but this is the Villian tournament, no-one here is going to fight fair if they can help it (with the exception of a few guys with codes of honour or whatever) least of all the Joker, and he's smarter and more unpredictable than Mary is. For me that gives him some distinct advantages in what I wold expect to be a very sneaky and unfair fight.

    -SPI- on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    And her powers along with her experience are likely to give her an advantage versus any kind of trap the Joker may devise.

    Joker's traps might be unexpected, but so will Mary's ability to light him on fire with her mind along with TK deflection.

    robosagogo on
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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    exit wrote:
    How would he lure her?

    He could show himself outside very breifly, or shout, make some other noise, turn on a light in a room, whatever.

    The Joker has greater experience than Mary. He's older and has been at it longer.

    Has Mary ever been shown to burn someone to death instantly?

    Spectre-x on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Mary's at least smart enough to know when she's being lured.

    robosagogo on
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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Yes, she is. So she'll probably take the bait but keep her guard up. And then, when she's sure everything is safe, she'll explode because the Joker put a pressure-sensitive bomb under the floorboards of the appartment he was hiding in not five minutes ago. Or she'll get sprayed with Joker gas or other nasty chemicals that he hid undetectably.

    Spectre-x on
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    exitexit Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    "Yoo-hoo! Mary-kins!" or a light going on don't sound like they'd work. Batman rushes in 'cause usually where he's being lead to includes six kids tied up that will die in thirty seconds or something. All either of them has to look forward to is getting killed.

    And if he shows himself briefly, I could see that working once. Second time, on fire. And when the Joker is on fire, he's not going to keep the cool required to get away from her clean. She'll have time to beat him down.

    exit on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Yes, she is. So she'll probably take the bait but keep her guard up. And then, when she's sure everything is safe, she'll explode because the Joker put a pressure-sensitive bomb under the floorboards of the appartment he was hiding in not five minutes ago. Or she'll get sprayed with Joker gas or other nasty chemicals that he hid undetectably.
    Why would she ever assume she is safe when she's in the middle of a fight to the death with a fucking super-villain?

    And yeah, there's no way Joker can build a pressure sensitive bomb over the course of this fight. More importantly, she'd have her force field up so long as her guard was up (the entire fight).

    robosagogo on
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    ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    It sounds like Mary's basically tk Psylocke, plus the Human Torch, plus Elektra, plus insanity.

    With the telekinesis alone, I don't think Joker would have much of a chance of hurting her. She's just got too high a power level for him.

    Scooter on
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    Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    What about the Joker's superpower?

    The whole "not-dead-when-he's-supposed-to-be-dead" thing?

    It's like BOOM Joker on fire. Mary walks away. And then he's there on the sidewalk waving to her his suit not even mused.

    So she hits him with a telekineticed brick. And then a little while later he's on a rooftop, for some reason dressed like Barbara Bush.

    Also isn't there some debate about Jokers fighting ability? Sometimes he's knocked out in a punch and sometimes he's like Batman Beyond: ROTJ and matched with Batman.

    Bloods End on
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    BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Bloods End wrote:
    What about the Joker's superpower?

    The whole "not-dead-when-he's-supposed-to-be-dead" thing?

    It's like BOOM Joker on fire. Mary walks away. And then he's there on the sidewalk waving to her his suit not even mused.

    So she hits him with a telekineticed brick. And then a little while later he's on a rooftop, for some reason dressed like Barbara Bush.

    Also isn't there some debate about Jokers fighting ability? Sometimes he's knocked out in a punch and sometimes he's like Batman Beyond: ROTJ and matched with Batman.
    Joker is a capable fighter but not on Mary's level. In Beyond he had Tim Drake's memories and fighting skills.

    Also in response to your summation of Joker's Power: :|

    Blankspace on
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Yes, she is. So she'll probably take the bait but keep her guard up. And then, when she's sure everything is safe, she'll explode because the Joker put a pressure-sensitive bomb under the floorboards of the appartment he was hiding in not five minutes ago. Or she'll get sprayed with Joker gas or other nasty chemicals that he hid undetectably.

    The equipment available to Joker consists of 1 acid spitting flower, 5 Joker Gas Grenades, one pistol, and one million volt joy buzzer. If you can explain to me how he can create a pressure sensitive bomb out of that, then we'll talk about that plan working.

    Marathon on
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    Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Marathon wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Yes, she is. So she'll probably take the bait but keep her guard up. And then, when she's sure everything is safe, she'll explode because the Joker put a pressure-sensitive bomb under the floorboards of the appartment he was hiding in not five minutes ago. Or she'll get sprayed with Joker gas or other nasty chemicals that he hid undetectably.

    The equipment available to Joker consists of 1 acid spitting flower, 5 Joker Gas Grenades, one pistol, and one million volt joy buzzer. If you can explain to me how he can create a pressure sensitive bomb out of that, then we'll talk about that plan working.

    MacGuyver could do it.

    Bloods End on
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Bloods End wrote:
    Marathon wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Yes, she is. So she'll probably take the bait but keep her guard up. And then, when she's sure everything is safe, she'll explode because the Joker put a pressure-sensitive bomb under the floorboards of the appartment he was hiding in not five minutes ago. Or she'll get sprayed with Joker gas or other nasty chemicals that he hid undetectably.

    The equipment available to Joker consists of 1 acid spitting flower, 5 Joker Gas Grenades, one pistol, and one million volt joy buzzer. If you can explain to me how he can create a pressure sensitive bomb out of that, then we'll talk about that plan working.

    MacGuyver could do it.

    If only someone would have nominated him. You know he used to create chloroform out of household chemicals and a straw, then he used it to rape children.

    Marathon on
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    NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Marathon wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Yes, she is. So she'll probably take the bait but keep her guard up. And then, when she's sure everything is safe, she'll explode because the Joker put a pressure-sensitive bomb under the floorboards of the appartment he was hiding in not five minutes ago. Or she'll get sprayed with Joker gas or other nasty chemicals that he hid undetectably.

    The equipment available to Joker consists of 1 acid spitting flower, 5 Joker Gas Grenades, one pistol, and one million volt joy buzzer. If you can explain to me how he can create a pressure sensitive bomb out of that, then we'll talk about that plan working.
    Could probably rig it so the buzzer sets off the grenades?

    NinjaSquirrel on
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    BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Marathon wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Yes, she is. So she'll probably take the bait but keep her guard up. And then, when she's sure everything is safe, she'll explode because the Joker put a pressure-sensitive bomb under the floorboards of the appartment he was hiding in not five minutes ago. Or she'll get sprayed with Joker gas or other nasty chemicals that he hid undetectably.

    The equipment available to Joker consists of 1 acid spitting flower, 5 Joker Gas Grenades, one pistol, and one million volt joy buzzer. If you can explain to me how he can create a pressure sensitive bomb out of that, then we'll talk about that plan working.
    Could probably rig it so the buzzer sets off the grenades?
    That would involve using the buzzer as a mine or something like it, yes?
    This brings up two things 1) Why would Mary, a professional assasain step on a joy buzzer when she's facing someone who looks like a psychotic clown? and 2) Why even make it set off the grenades if she ever did step on it(Which I doubt) the shock would kill her.

    Blankspace on
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Marathon wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Yes, she is. So she'll probably take the bait but keep her guard up. And then, when she's sure everything is safe, she'll explode because the Joker put a pressure-sensitive bomb under the floorboards of the appartment he was hiding in not five minutes ago. Or she'll get sprayed with Joker gas or other nasty chemicals that he hid undetectably.

    The equipment available to Joker consists of 1 acid spitting flower, 5 Joker Gas Grenades, one pistol, and one million volt joy buzzer. If you can explain to me how he can create a pressure sensitive bomb out of that, then we'll talk about that plan working.
    Could probably rig it so the buzzer sets off the grenades?

    It would be a huge risk on his part to rig up something that would require her to step on such a small target to actually work. Im not saying it's impossible, just really a bad tactic.

    Marathon on
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    NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Well like lay it under some weak floor boards that bend quite a bit when you walk on them and have the buzzer underneath next to the grenades?

    I don't know, I'm just laying out hope for the joker though I'll probably be voting for Mary.

    NinjaSquirrel on
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The grenades would not do much damage anyway. They aren't the kind of grenades made to explode and cause damage. They mostly explode and spread the gas. The electricity might ignite the gas, but I think someone already mentioned that fire won't hurt her.

    Marathon on
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    BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    This is how I see Joker: He is one of, if not the, comic's greatest villains. He is beautifully brutal, incredibly insane, and delicously deviant but in a 1 on 1 Super-Villain tournament he's pretty much up shit creek without a paddle. Most of these super-villains are insane to some degree so he can't talk them into insanity and his decent fighting skills are nothing when up against the likes of Taskmaster, Deathstroke and the like. His gadgets and doo-dads are also forfiet when up against people who can control magnetism, light him on fire with a thought or can control the very machinery in his weaponry.

    I love ya Mister J, but you're fucked.

    Blankspace on
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    TheidarTheidar Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Yeah, the Joker seems to need some very contrived situations to pull off a win.

    He's a great villain, but more in a what the fuck is he going to do this time how can we stop him from causing chaos to the public scenario. He's not really in his element here. He also has no prep time to make any intricate plots, traps or gadgets.

    I don't think I can vote for him on this one.


    Question about Doomsday, is he mindless and uberstrong/tough again, or is he still somewhat more intelligent but weaker?

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    BlankspaceBlankspace __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Theidar wrote:
    Yeah, the Joker seems to need some very contrived situations to pull off a win.

    He's a great villain, but more in a what the fuck is he going to do this time how can we stop him from causing chaos to the public scenario. He's not really in his element here. He also has no prep time to make any intricate plots, traps or gadgets.

    I don't think I can vote for him on this one.


    Question about Doomsday, is he mindless and uberstrong/tough again, or is he still somewhat more intelligent but weaker?
    No one's really sure about Doomsday's current status. It seemed that with Dr. Psycho controling him like a pet in IC he was back to mindless with the extra power(Although the two Supermen defeated him quite easily.)

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    Psychotic OnePsychotic One The Lord of No Pants Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Against Typhoid, Joker would stand a chance since Mary doesn't have her swords and would probably try to seduce Joker with her fevor attraction power she almost nailed Kingpin with. But Joker is to delusional I think for that to work on

    Against Bloody Mary the fights over. When she is out of knives she'd make a weapon out of the enviroment or beat Joker to death with his own leg.

    I think this comes down to if Joker can take down Typhoid Mary before he sparks one of her 2 deadlier personalities to step forward. And if Bloody Mary comes out I think the Joker is throughly fucked.

    Psychotic One on
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