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Interpretation, Plausible Denial and racially loaded imagery (NYPost cartoon)

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Posts

  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    The intent wasn't racist, but I see how you can get there when viewed in the context of older political cartoons/commentary in general comparing blacks & monkeys.

    That said, the reference is clearly to the "million chimpanzees and a million typewriters" or "the stimulus bill is stupid and was written by monkeys" and then connecting that to the rampaging chimp story of the other day. I don't think it means to draw the connection of either Obama = monkey or congress=monkey.

    tsmvengy on
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  • KalTorakKalTorak Way up inside your butthole, Morty. WAAAAY up inside there.Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    09102002wz5.th.jpg
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg
    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    What is that top one even saying? Osama's probably dead, good thing we didn't find him?

    KalTorak on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    Those cartoons raped my brain and now my skull is full of idiot-spooge.

    Thanks a lot.

    ElJeffe on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg
    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    Okay, now that one pisses me right the fuck off. And I don't even like the vast majority of Liebeskind's work, but he has designed some beauties. In particular his Holocaust museum. But then I guess not making a neo-classical Roman temple to avarice makes you a terrorist.


    And what the fuck is Bert doing in there?

    moniker on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    09102002wz5.th.jpg
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg
    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    What is that top one even saying? Osama's probably dead, good thing we didn't find him?

    "lol arabs eaten by mice is funny"?

    ElJeffe on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg
    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    Okay, now that one pisses me right the fuck off. And I don't even like the vast majority of Liebeskind's work, but he has designed some beauties. In particular his Holocaust museum. But then I guess not making a neo-classical Roman temple to avarice makes you a terrorist.

    Oh, oh, now you've done it, Mr. Idiot Cartoonist. You've gone and pissed off the architect.

    ElJeffe on
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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Now given how clearly stupid this guy is, how many people think that he is sophisticated enough to make a million monkeys with typewriters reference? I mean granted, he'd be using that reference wrong but given the intellectual level of his cartoons do you think he's even ever heard that expression?

    PantsB on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    Now given how clearly stupid this guy is, how many people think that he is sophisticated enough to make a million monkeys with typewriters reference? I mean granted, he'd be using that reference wrong but given the intellectual level of his cartoons do you think he's even ever heard that expression?

    How much sophistication does it take to say, "Hur, you are stupid! Like a monkey!"?

    ElJeffe on
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  • zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I said on the other thread, I didn't even realize what's wrong with the cartoon at first, as in, didn't get the racial context. After I understood why people are offended, I'd say that it was in pretty poor taste and either a badly thought out cartoon or a sad jest, but I still don't think there should be any consequences for the cartoonist as the cartoon does have a pretty good meaning outside racial context.

    zeeny on
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Hahaha, what the hell? That's such a weird melding of news stories for such an awful joke.

    durandal4532 on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    That said, I still find it offensive. Just not as someone who disdains racism (which I do) but as someone who enjoys comedy. Hey, douchebag cartoonist? You're doing it wrong.
    13409006b490b05016al4.th.jpg

    How can you not find this HI-LARIOUS!?

    Okay, now that one pisses me right the fuck off. And I don't even like the vast majority of Liebeskind's work, but he has designed some beauties. In particular his Holocaust museum. But then I guess not making a neo-classical Roman temple to avarice makes you a terrorist.

    Oh, oh, now you've done it, Mr. Idiot Cartoonist. You've gone and pissed off the architect.

    If a pen is mightier than a sword my T-square coming down on the back of his head is going to feel like Thor's hammer.

    moniker on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    I mean, I think it's reasonable to assert that there may have been a racial motive behind the cartoon. Where we part ways is "OMG that is so blatant and if you do not instantly link monkeys with the president you are bliiiiiiind."

    ElJeffe on
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  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    [ed] Nevermind, see Jeffe's last 2 posts. That sums it up for me I think.

    iTunesIsEvil on
  • LuqLuq Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Luq wrote: »
    There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a monkey.

    So does that make Bush the second Black president, after Clinton? I always thought he was a white man from Texas, color me surprised.
    To those taking umbrage at this, you are the reason there is an argument against political correctness.
    Since apparently "noticing blatant racist imagery" is your definition of "political correctness," I would like to thank you for the compliment. Our services are provided for free, you are very welcome.

    How old are you? I am from Texas, I know quite a few racist people, and I've never heard this black people = monkey ... business. That was unfortunate. The guy is a douchebag but this was not a racist comic. If you are claiming it is a racist comic and taking umbrage you are headed to the John Wiley Price "black hole is a racist term' side of the spectrum.

    edit: Relevance of age is that I'm wondering if this is just a generational difference. No one in my peer group connected monkeys and black people today in our discussion group either.

    Luq on
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    The guy loves retarded fat jokes that have been done a trillion times.
    delonas20070404192007nh6.th.jpg
    120120061nr0.th.jpg

    He is also probably a plagiarist:
    http://www.mattbors.com/2008/06/sean-delonas-worse-than-hack.html

    Couscous on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Luq wrote: »
    Luq wrote: »
    There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a monkey.

    So does that make Bush the second Black president, after Clinton? I always thought he was a white man from Texas, color me surprised.
    To those taking umbrage at this, you are the reason there is an argument against political correctness.
    Since apparently "noticing blatant racist imagery" is your definition of "political correctness," I would like to thank you for the compliment. Our services are provided for free, you are very welcome.

    How old are you? I am from Texas, I know quite a few racist people, and I've never heard this black people = monkey ... business. That was unfortunate. The guy is a douchebag but this was not a racist comic. If you are claiming it is a racist comic and taking umbrage you are headed to the John Wiley Price "black hole is a racist term' side of the spectrum.

    I thought 'porch monkey' was born out of Texas. Maybe it was Mississippi. You know what, fuck Mississippi regardless so let's just say it's from there.

    moniker on
  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    Now given how clearly stupid this guy is, how many people think that he is sophisticated enough to make a million monkeys with typewriters reference? I mean granted, he'd be using that reference wrong but given the intellectual level of his cartoons do you think he's even ever heard that expression?

    You're being really hyperbolic here.

    Organichu on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Eh, as a kid I was called a greasemonkey by a white girl that I had a feud with. It's also common racist vernacular to call black people monkeys.

    wwtMask on
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  • LuqLuq Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    I thought 'porch monkey' was born out of Texas. Maybe it was Mississippi. You know what, fuck Mississippi regardless so let's just say it's from there.

    I forgot about porch monkey. I had never heard of that before Clerks 2.

    Luq on
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  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Eh, as a kid I was called a greasemonkey by a white girl that I had a feud with. It's also common racist vernacular to call black people monkeys.
    Huh... I'd never heard that one used as a racial slur. I've only heard like auto mechanics or like machine hobbyists referred to as a greasemonkey.

    iTunesIsEvil on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Eh, as a kid I was called a greasemonkey by a white girl that I had a feud with. It's also common racist vernacular to call black people monkeys.

    I've heard "greasemonkey" as a non-racist term for mechanics.

    ElJeffe on
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  • LuqLuq Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Thirded on greasemonkey. Hell it's a firefox app.

    Luq on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Eh, as a kid I was called a greasemonkey by a white girl that I had a feud with. It's also common racist vernacular to call black people monkeys.

    Grease monkey = mechanic
    Register monkey = jackass teenage cashier
    Porch monkey/sand monkey = stupid racial epithets

    moniker on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    Hay look guys I found one of PantsB's baby photos:

    hyperbola.gif

    ElJeffe on
    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

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  • Lord YodLord Yod Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Are you guys seriously saying that depicting a monkey as the author of the stimulus bill, coincidentally a bill engineered by a black politician, is not a racist statement?

    You probably don't think this is racist either, huh?

    I mean, it's certainly a really fucking dumb cartoon in a shitty paper, so in my opinion it's not really something to get worked up over, but c'mon here.

    Lord Yod on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    Luq wrote: »
    Thirded on greasemonkey. Hell it's a firefox app.

    Mozilla = racist!

    ElJeffe on
    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Luq wrote: »
    Luq wrote: »
    There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a mon

    edit: Relevance of age is that I'm wondering if this is just a generational difference. No one in my peer group connected monkeys and black people today in our discussion group either.

    I think its just you. Comparing black people to monkeys/primates/etc is like racism 101.
    Callahan: "They caught him at a bus stop, right -- he was like waiting to catch a bus out of town."
    Dennis: "Yeah, yeah -- he's a METCO gorilla."
    Callahan: "Heading out to Lexington."
    Dennis: "Exactly."
    (A literal gorilla had escaped from the zoo that morning. METCO is a program where inner city, especially black, high school students attend classes in affluent suburban schools)

    edit or more directly
    obama_monkey.jpg

    PantsB on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Eh, as a kid I was called a greasemonkey by a white girl that I had a feud with. It's also common racist vernacular to call black people monkeys.

    I've heard "greasemonkey" as a non-racist term for mechanics.

    Trust me when I say that she definitely meant it in a racist way. Girl hated my guts and went out of her way to talk about how nappy my hair was and such. Ah, fourth grade, when you can punch a girl in the face and not really get in trouble, even if the girl's mom is a teacher at the school.

    I didn't learn until later on that greasemonkey meant mechanic.

    wwtMask on
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  • LuqLuq Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Yod like many have said, I never considered Obama the author of the bill.

    Luq on
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    Luq wrote: »
    Luq wrote: »
    There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a mon

    edit: Relevance of age is that I'm wondering if this is just a generational difference. No one in my peer group connected monkeys and black people today in our discussion group either.

    I think its just you. Comparing black people to monkeys/primates/etc is like racism 101.
    Callahan: "They caught him at a bus stop, right -- he was like waiting to catch a bus out of town."
    Dennis: "Yeah, yeah -- he's a METCO gorilla."
    Callahan: "Heading out to Lexington."
    Dennis: "Exactly."
    (A literal gorilla had escaped from the zoo that morning. METCO is a program where inner city, especially black, high school students attend classes in affluent suburban schools)

    And those people weren't fired for that?

    12102006ag1.th.jpg
    12082006pz7.th.jpg
    My blood pressure is going up from reading these cartoons.

    Couscous on
  • DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I've heard "greasemonkey" as a non-racist term for mechanics.
    Greasemonkey is definitely a non-racial term. It means an uneducated, dirty dude who works on machines (with the connotation that he's of low intelligence/ambitions/etc.). It's the best way get my dad extremely pissed off and he's white. Although I wouldn't be surprised if the girl Mask was fueding with didn't know what she was saying.

    That said, it seems obvious to me that this cartoonist is racist, whether this cartoon was actually racist or not. While the question of whether he's racist against black people may be be debatable, he is definitely a racist.

    Duffel on
  • LuqLuq Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    Luq wrote: »
    Luq wrote: »
    There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a mon

    edit: Relevance of age is that I'm wondering if this is just a generational difference. No one in my peer group connected monkeys and black people today in our discussion group either.

    I think its just you. Comparing black people to monkeys/primates/etc is like racism 101.
    Callahan: "They caught him at a bus stop, right -- he was like waiting to catch a bus out of town."
    Dennis: "Yeah, yeah -- he's a METCO gorilla."
    Callahan: "Heading out to Lexington."
    Dennis: "Exactly."
    (A literal gorilla had escaped from the zoo that morning. METCO is a program where inner city, especially black, high school students attend classes in affluent suburban schools)

    So today I have learned that I suck at racism. Damn.

    Luq on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Couscous wrote: »
    My blood pressure is going up from reading these cartoons.

    I'm just starting to pity the guy.

    moniker on
  • zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Eh, as a kid I was called a greasemonkey by a white girl that I had a feud with. It's also common racist vernacular to call black people monkeys.

    Grease monkey = mechanic
    Register monkey = jackass teenage cashier
    Porch monkey/sand monkey = stupid racial epithets

    Xanax monkey = an actual monkey on anxiety medication.

    zeeny on
  • PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Luq wrote: »
    Luq wrote: »
    There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a monkey.

    So does that make Bush the second Black president, after Clinton? I always thought he was a white man from Texas, color me surprised.
    To those taking umbrage at this, you are the reason there is an argument against political correctness.
    Since apparently "noticing blatant racist imagery" is your definition of "political correctness," I would like to thank you for the compliment. Our services are provided for free, you are very welcome.

    How old are you? I am from Texas, I know quite a few racist people, and I've never heard this black people = monkey ... business. That was unfortunate. The guy is a douchebag but this was not a racist comic. If you are claiming it is a racist comic and taking umbrage you are headed to the John Wiley Price "black hole is a racist term' side of the spectrum.

    edit: Relevance of age is that I'm wondering if this is just a generational difference. No one in my peer group connected monkeys and black people today in our discussion group either.

    28, Midwest so I imagine regional differences could account for more than age. The depiction of blacks as monkeys or monkey-like humans is a historical racist trope, well, if you grant that "dem coloreds aren't even fully HUMAN!" is racist. If you want to argue against that, well, I think we'll just have to agree to part ways. Additionally, I don't find the term "black hole" racist, nor do I see a connection between a comic depicting two police officers shooting a monkey that represents a black president and a black hole, aside from the obvious jokes one could try to make as to the relative lack of intelligence in both.

    There's clearly a racial undertone to the comic. It is possible that the author wasn't aware, it is possible that the author was aware and feigns ignorance to try and paint his critics as overly sensitive, I don't know what the author secretly believes in his heart of hearts nor do I care.

    At some point it doesn't matter if the author "actually" hates black people or not. I expect published cartoonists to have a basic understanding of culture and history. The author / artist may be intentionally using racist imagery or he may have done so accidentally, but in both scenarios the creator is an incredibly daft tool who doesn't deserve to have his works published on a bathroom wall. It will always be possible to raise the "its not racist, just stupid!" defense, and at a certain level being that stupid is just as bad or worse than being intentionally racist.

    PotatoNinja on
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  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I think there is an social group disconnect. Young non-black people aren't seeing racism in this. I would bet $texas that older black people would. Just because blacks were not killed by police or called monkeys in recent years where you live doesn't mean the rest of the population forgives and forgets just like that.

    It's a shitty comic, and it's a racist comic (to what degree that was intentional, who cares).

    If they want to print shitty racist stuff, good for them, their paper will wither and die from its own stupidity eventually.

    Dman on
  • seasleepyseasleepy Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Luq wrote: »
    Luq wrote: »
    There are hundreds of comics depicting Bush as a monkey.

    So does that make Bush the second Black president, after Clinton? I always thought he was a white man from Texas, color me surprised.
    To those taking umbrage at this, you are the reason there is an argument against political correctness.
    Since apparently "noticing blatant racist imagery" is your definition of "political correctness," I would like to thank you for the compliment. Our services are provided for free, you are very welcome.

    How old are you? I am from Texas, I know quite a few racist people, and I've never heard this black people = monkey ... business. That was unfortunate. The guy is a douchebag but this was not a racist comic. If you are claiming it is a racist comic and taking umbrage you are headed to the John Wiley Price "black hole is a racist term' side of the spectrum.

    edit: Relevance of age is that I'm wondering if this is just a generational difference. No one in my peer group connected monkeys and black people today in our discussion group either.

    I'm from Texas too, and while I became aware of the monkey connotation from studying history as opposed to something I noticed myself, it's pretty obvious that it's still in use in certain circles (see: "Curious George" from this past election). Edit: and other things other people have posted because I'm sloooooow.

    I posted the initial link, so I guess I should weigh in: I don't know if the cartoonist intended the message that's causing a lot of people to go :shock: (I'm leaning toward yes given the other ones he's published, but it's possible he was being entirely naive today), but it should have been blatantly obvious to someone in the publishing chain that it could very easily be interpreted that way.

    seasleepy on
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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Couscous wrote: »

    And those people weren't fired for that?

    No and I hate that.
    Luq wrote: »
    Yod like many have said, I never considered Obama the author of the bill.
    He wrote the core of it (or his staff did) and he's the primary proponent and central driver of it. And the cartoonist apparently thought he was 10 days ago.
    02082009.jpg

    PantsB on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2009
    Lord Yod wrote: »
    Are you guys seriously saying that depicting a monkey as the author of the stimulus bill, coincidentally a bill engineered by a black politician, is not a racist statement?

    Here is a test:

    Imagine you open your paper and see a cartoon equating George Bush to a monkey. Do you:

    A) Interpret it as "George W. Bush = stupid", or
    B) Wonder why they're claiming George Bush is a monkey, I mean the guy doesn't look black at all.


    If B), turn to page #omg u r dum

    If A), then you admit that the image of a monkey can mean things other than a racial slur towards a black man. Further, unless you are completely unhinged, you recognize that it is possible that someone could be using the image of a monkey to say that whoever wrote that damned bill is a danged idjit.


    Many of us here? We're A) folks.

    ElJeffe on
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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Lord Yod wrote: »
    Are you guys seriously saying that depicting a monkey as the author of the stimulus bill, coincidentally a bill engineered by a black politician, is not a racist statement?
    Here is a test:

    Imagine you open your paper and see a cartoon equating George Bush to a monkey. Do you:

    A) Interpret it as "George W. Bush = stupid", or
    B) Wonder why they're claiming George Bush is a monkey, I mean the guy doesn't look black at all.


    If B), turn to page #omg u r dum

    If A), then you admit that the image of a monkey can mean things other than a racial slur towards a black man. Further, unless you are completely unhinged, you recognize that it is possible that someone could be using the image of a monkey to say that whoever wrote that damned bill is a danged idjit.


    Many of us here? We're A) folks.
    I'm really curious as to what degree someone has to go to now before we consider it racism. I mean, we're talking about a guy who equates Arab-American schoolchildren with terrorists.

    I guess if the drawing had been of a big-lipped guy throwing a spear at the cops, that would have been okay, too, because if someone had used the same drawing referencing George W. Bush it wouldn't have been racist?

    Thanatos on
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