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Married without children
Zoltan113
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I need a reality check.
I have been happily married for 2 years and with my husband before that for another 2. We have gone through a lot already, including graduate school, a cross country move, job seeking, and military service, always doing well and enjoying life with each other. Our disagreements are rare and always rationally discussed. There is but one exception that we cannot come to terms with, and it is huge.
I have always planned to have 0 children in my life, while hubby has been proclaiming his agreement since shortly after we began dating. He initially said he wanted to adopt some day, but said he could live without if that is what I wanted. His concession continued until last year, when he said he was unsure and might once again want to adopt some day. This was our relationship "dropping of the megaton bomb." We discussed it in extreme detail prior to marriage (deal-breaker for me) and he insisted that he was in agreement with me.
A year has passed and we have spoken a lot about it, but somehow said very little. We haven't reached any conclusion or compromise. It feels like we are both waiting and hoping the other will miraculously change their mind. This is definitely becoming a barrier in my mind that I can see dividing us further and further if left unresolved.
Very recently upon my inquiry he insisted that his mind is now firmly in the "obtain children someday" category. I didn't have a real response. This contrasts 100% with my long term life goals (besides the ones that involve "love you forever and ever.") Children have always been and always will be a deal-breaker for me. He has known this since pre date 1.
I have been contemplating bringing up the following points:
1. We need to talk (and then actually sit down and talk without postponing discourse like usual)
2. Why do you want to do this? How important is it to you? Etc. (These have already been asked and answered 100 times, but a recap is probably necessary to transition into the following)
3. This is a deal-breaker to me. Is it for you? (This is really the only thing that I don't know the answer to)
4. If it is not a deal breaker for him: What other things can you do to fulfill this need? Mentor, big brother, etc? (Also already discussed before many times. So far he has said they are insufficient to his needs.)
5. If it is a deal breaker for him: Our life goals have evolved such that they no longer converge; maybe we should reconsider the relationship.
Is this reasonable? I do not want to split, but I am a rational person; If things are still good now but I know they will slowly sour, I cut my losses.
Rereading what I wrote and trying to adopt an outside perspective, it reads like someone who is trying to convince themselves that things are great when they aren't. The advice that I myself would give a stranger after reading this would be that such a big issue looming ominously is exceedingly unhealthy; talk now.
For added insight, we are both 29. This is my second long term (1+ year) relationship and his first. I have already received advice from every person in my life whose opinion I respect, and from outside professional sources.
I have been happily married for 2 years and with my husband before that for another 2. We have gone through a lot already, including graduate school, a cross country move, job seeking, and military service, always doing well and enjoying life with each other. Our disagreements are rare and always rationally discussed. There is but one exception that we cannot come to terms with, and it is huge.
I have always planned to have 0 children in my life, while hubby has been proclaiming his agreement since shortly after we began dating. He initially said he wanted to adopt some day, but said he could live without if that is what I wanted. His concession continued until last year, when he said he was unsure and might once again want to adopt some day. This was our relationship "dropping of the megaton bomb." We discussed it in extreme detail prior to marriage (deal-breaker for me) and he insisted that he was in agreement with me.
A year has passed and we have spoken a lot about it, but somehow said very little. We haven't reached any conclusion or compromise. It feels like we are both waiting and hoping the other will miraculously change their mind. This is definitely becoming a barrier in my mind that I can see dividing us further and further if left unresolved.
Very recently upon my inquiry he insisted that his mind is now firmly in the "obtain children someday" category. I didn't have a real response. This contrasts 100% with my long term life goals (besides the ones that involve "love you forever and ever.") Children have always been and always will be a deal-breaker for me. He has known this since pre date 1.
I have been contemplating bringing up the following points:
1. We need to talk (and then actually sit down and talk without postponing discourse like usual)
2. Why do you want to do this? How important is it to you? Etc. (These have already been asked and answered 100 times, but a recap is probably necessary to transition into the following)
3. This is a deal-breaker to me. Is it for you? (This is really the only thing that I don't know the answer to)
4. If it is not a deal breaker for him: What other things can you do to fulfill this need? Mentor, big brother, etc? (Also already discussed before many times. So far he has said they are insufficient to his needs.)
5. If it is a deal breaker for him: Our life goals have evolved such that they no longer converge; maybe we should reconsider the relationship.
Is this reasonable? I do not want to split, but I am a rational person; If things are still good now but I know they will slowly sour, I cut my losses.
Rereading what I wrote and trying to adopt an outside perspective, it reads like someone who is trying to convince themselves that things are great when they aren't. The advice that I myself would give a stranger after reading this would be that such a big issue looming ominously is exceedingly unhealthy; talk now.
For added insight, we are both 29. This is my second long term (1+ year) relationship and his first. I have already received advice from every person in my life whose opinion I respect, and from outside professional sources.
Zoltan113 on
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It sounds like you already know the score, but are just waiting for him to to basically realize that it's no kids or the highway. It's unfortunate, but this is one of those situations that love doesn't conquer.
I wish you luck though.
Is possible. If you are both set in your ways, sadly you might have to consider going separate ways.
I don't know your specific reasons for not wanting one, but it's something to think about.
Wow..I would bar you from having any more children if this was your continued attitude.
To the OP. I don't think there's much to advice on, seeing as you're pretty much on the right track. I think it's kinda crappy of your SO to have switched his mind, but hopefully things will turn out okay.
I definitely don't want any children; my girlfriend (who I'm probably going to marry) agrees, and the one thing that terrifies me the most is that she'll change her mind someday.
Maybe you could explain to your husband that children, unlike kittens, are not cute or furry? That they are basically disgusting little retard homunculi who suck your blood, then suck your money until they are 18, or 22, often hating you all the while doing this?
Wasn't there some book written about how having kids actually doesn't make you happier, in fact makes you less happy? Scientists wrote it so I believe it.
I think you are on the right track, a rational sit down conversation is very appropriate. If neither one of you is willing to budge, there really isn't anything else to say.
Good luck, that is a tough situation.
and if this isn't addressed immediately, things can get bad very quickly between the two of you (resentment being the foremost concern that I can think of). Here's the thing: lots of people say "I want children someday", and that last word tends to carry quite a bit of weight. "Someday" gets closer and closer the older you get. I had much the same thought when I was first dating my wife. We both wanted kids, but while my wife wanted them soon, I was ready to put them off "until I was ready someday". Unfortunately "someday" snuck right up on me, right around my 30th birthday, and to this day I regret waiting as long as I did.
Point is, both partners should be of one mind about children, one way or the other, I would say almost more than any other subject. If it's truly important to him that he wants them and it sounds like you truly do not, then there really is no compromise to be made there. You either want them or you don't, and if it's a deal-breaker, then as you say, it's best to cut your losses early rather than waiting for the inevitable falling out and bitterness.
(I was mostly offering sympathy)
I keep postponing it for inconsequential reasons. "Hmmm Christmas would be a bad time." "His b-day is soon, better wait; wouldn't want to ruin that." "He's having surgery soon, can't stress him out before that." "Oh man his brother's cat died, better let him mourn."
That last one is not even joking.
To be fair he used to live with his brother and that cat was so nice.
That's where I stand as well, I don't think it's that big of a deal. I'm not saying I won't care about the child when it arrives, but I could comfortably go with or without kids either way. I think I'll enjoy parenthood when it comes but right now we're having fun without any kids. She really wants them, I want them a some point in the future, I just want to wait longer than she does.
Well, I think in this instance it's a pretty darn black and white situation. You seem both willing and able to pull the plug on this marriage if he's changed his mind about kids... everything else is just procrastination and putting it off. For me, I would try to imagine having this conversation on your 30th birthday, or 35th, or 40th... and see how much worse it gets in your mind the longer you delay.
It's not a problem that's going to go away, as you clearly know.
He actually wants to wait until he is between 35 and 40. While that is 6-11 years away, I have to show my pragmatism by not waiting that long to finalize this :P
EDIT: I was typing while sentry posted above, but that is spot on to what I am thinking. I just need courage
I was waiting for us to be "financially secure". 8 years later, I realized I'll probably never feel we are. I really had no idea how deeply it would affect me.
It sounds like you're both happy now. 6-11 years is an incredibly long time, longer than you've even been dating/married. If it's not going to be an issue until that time, why bother even stressing about it now? Maybe he'll change his mind?
And if he doesn't, it's not like you've robbed him of his chance to have children if that's the course he chooses.
Edit: it actually sounds like the onus would be on HIM to bring it up, not you, since he'd be the one wanting to instigate a change to the agreed-upon status quo. I guess it would suck to live in fear of him bringing up this conversation with you, though.
There is no doubt discussions need to be had. Relationships/marriage rely on these lines of communication, and resolution to the issues that were discussed. In this case, the resolution might not be 100% of what you wanted or expected.
When I read your post, a few things stand out to me. The mention of long term life goals, the -- in my opinion -- treatment of your marriage as a business transaction with the "deal breakers", the rush to get this done, and what -- again, my opinion -- seems to be your unsure view of where you really stand on the issue of marriage to this man.
I think it would help to know what it is your long term life goals are. Along with asking yourself a few questions. How does having a kid really affect those goals? What really is the reason you are so set against children? Are you two so for your respective viewpoints that they have become more important than the person you promised you'd live for and with? Is there no space for possibly a "trial" run in the future? Maybe a stint as a foster parent?
This is a big, big deal. You both are risking the marriage to the person you ( I hope ) chose as your life partner. And I would hope the entire issue is taken slowly, carefully, and with a ton of respect and love. If his timeframe really is 6-11 years out I don't see the rush to get it finalized now for the sake of pragmatism.
Again, this is all my opinion, and i'm really pushing the marriage point, and heaping a lot of questions you. I just simply feel that marriage is an incredible commitment, and if you have taken the step to marry someone, then both of you need to take steps to ensure that the marriage survives, and your love thrives. Marriages are just like -- cliche coming up! -- seasons. Up, down, cold, hot. But, the longer we go, and the more we work with each other the less it tends to fluctuate, the stronger the bond grows, and the better our lives for it. I would hate to see your marriage fail because of this, and because of a rush for answers.
I just wanted to edit and add, that yes I am married. My wife and I have gone back and forth over the children issue. In the end though, we agree on one thing -- which I notice Underdog has posted -- that we can't, no, we *don't* want to live without each other. She is the most important thing in our life, and I do what it takes to make our marriage thrive and keep her happy -- because it makes me happy.
Kinda what I thought too. I mean he changed his mind once, who's to say he won't change it again? And I'm not suggesting that 6 years go by and he'll just be like "Actually, kids suck, so let's not." I'm thinking more like 6 years go by and he finds himself at the crossroads once more except now he's been with you for 10 whole years. And though his desire to have children may not have waned, the 10 years together may strengthen his relationship with you, possibly to the point where he may think "I don't know if I can live without children but I know I can't live with her."
I stole that last bit from a House episode where that plastic surgeon guy was talking to his wife about having kids. They revealed that the two of them had decided to not have kids (mostly seemed like wife's idea which the guy agreed to) but then now he's all like "I don't know..." It "ends" when she asks him whether he can't live without having children and his response is that he knows he can't live without her. And they hug.
I'm not sure if that's something you can live with but it is a factor to consider. I wish you well, this thread has made me sad.
That's my primary reason as well. My wife has already reached the conclusion it took you (and will probably take me aswell) 8 years to make. I hate when my wife's constantly all right 'n shit. :P
I doubt he ever changed his mind in the first place. I'm sure he did a great job of convincing himself that he actually didn't want kids, but deep down he was always just assuming that one day Zoltan would up and say, "You know, maybe kids would be alright after all."
That doesn't sound healthy to me. That sounds like the breeding grounds for resentment.
Noquar: The specific goal of mine that this contrasts with is me not having any children. I would prefer this not to turn into "oh she hates kids" discussion, because it isn't true, but I do not want them and I know that I would be miserable with them. Miserable parent -> miserable kid and I wouldn't want to unfairly (cruelly) put a child in that position.
I love my husband very much and would obviously prefer to stay with him forever. However, there is also the consideration that doing so will be keeping him from his life goals. This is something he decided long before I met, just as my decision was made long before we met. I kind of get from him that he never really changed his mind, but was trying to "see it my way" and after 3 years, couldn't any longer. I can't condemn him for that.
I will be back later tonight to see if this develops further.
Adamb: Again, I was typing while someone was posting what I feel. I really don't think he ever changed his mind in the first place. He was just trying to please me and finally realized that he couldn't lie to himself any more. This will be one of the questions that I ask when we discuss the matter.
I actually brought this up with my wife just the other day. I've always told her that I'm ambivalent about it, but it would probably be cool. She said that she hates the idea that people have kids just so they have something to do when they're old (which was pretty biting, as that's one of the reasons I figured it'd be fun to have kids but didn't mention it to her, burn!), but that she's really just incredibly grossed out by the idea of pregnancy and birthing.
She also said that she thinks people's "possession" issues with kids is weird, how people have to have "their" kid, nevermind that the only thing that makes a biological kid unique is the genetics; it doesn't dictate their future or wellness. She said she'd feel pretty awful if she decided to have a kid and it had a major mental disease or something, even though she admits that it's somewhat mean of her to feel that way. Her opinion had not changed over time, and I learned a bit more about her rationale as she's also probably thought about it since the last time we talked about it.
But we had that discussion and do bring it up every now and again as a way to "touch base" on how we feel. We've been married for two and a half years or so, and a good chunk of people our age are choosing to have children, so we talked about it. Not yelling or as a fight, but just as a "you know, this is how it is with me, what do you think" sort of way.
If you don't, one of you is going to end up with expectations that the other can't or will never meet. And that's a recipe for disaster.
I have to say though Zoltan, if you mean what you are typing there really is no alternative. You just need to cowboy(girl) up and throw down an ultimatum.
Personally, the whole idea horrifies me and on a personal, emotional level I think you are making a terrible mistake. BUT....you did not come here to have that discussion. The point made earlier is the best...if this is such a big deal to you both, better to sort it out now one way or another.
Unless the whole thing boils down to commitment issues and you won't let that happen. But I doubt any of us will ever know you well enough to say much on that.
I really hope it works out for you.
I doubt he ever changed his mind about children. What I'm saying is that he changed his mind on whether he could do without them. Optimistically, his initial thought was he knew she didn't want them, considered life with her and life without children and chose the former. Now he's sitting around wondering if he can live with his choice. Bad timing? Yes, very. But it is what it is. This is a pretty optimistic view, what with Zoltan seeming fairly certain that what actually happened was he hadn't reconciled himself to the idea, he just hoped she'd change her mind. People change their minds, even if they we really, really super sure of the decision at the time.
Sure but there's a chance (admittedly small), that at 35, having lived with the woman he loves presumably more than anything in the world, that he can live with the disappointment of not having children but he can't live with the disappointment of not having her. He's going to be disappointed anyway you cut it. He did not make such a great decision to pursue someone who had such a different looking view on how to live life but that is pointless to debate right now. Now this small chance might not be enough for the OP and that'd be fair because I only said that it was something to be considered. It's likely the one with the smallest probability for success (so many factors to consider) but its one saving grace is that it is the one that, if successful, brings the most happiness to both parties, on a relative scale.
It's a tough choice either way but I'm just saying it's kind of a shame to be set on divorce over an issue that won't even be an issue in at least 6 years. That it is a shame probably won't stop a divorce from happening but the whole point of this is to present all available options. I don't know, maybe I just can't stand to see happiness derailed.
I also don't understand why people are telling you that you should consider having the kid for him. That's absolutely insane as I doubt the decision to not have children was one you just suddenly came up with. I have friends who are childfree and I couldn't imagine telling them they should just have a kid anymore than I could imagine telling someone who does want a kid they should just forget about it, in order to make someone else happy.
My feeling is that you go to a counselor to fix something that's broken, but there's nothing broken here. The problem is just a difference of opinion. Zoltan isn't going to change her mind, and there's nothing wrong with that; she was clear and upfront from the beginning of the relationship. What is up for question is whether this is a dealbreaker for the husband: can he live without children? If he can't, no amount of counseling is going to turn this into a healthy relationship.
it'd be a waste of money when she is certain that she does not want any.
also, to the people saying 'why talk now? give it some years.', that is a pretty horrible idea. you have your youth only so long, and if this marriage is transitory, it is not fair to her or to him to have to try and start over when they are deeply settled in and older.
at that stage, a whole lot of the guys she would be meeting are divorced as well, and most likely will have kids of their own that she doesn't want to bother with.
and for her husband, women can only safely have children for so long, so if he is going trying to find a partner and he is approaching 40, he has to search younger women, who may not want an older dude, and it is not fair to him.
this is a bad situation to be in, and it saddens me that he is putting you into it zoltan, i wish you luck with the discussion.
No one ever suggested she just do it anyway. We're just saying, "You're asking him to really consider his stance on this issue in relation to the marriage, maybe you should do the same."
Really? Because it sounds more like "We know you had several serious conversations about this prior to getting married and came to an agreement but since he changed his mind maybe you should too because having deal breakers is stupid in marriage... even if this was something already talked out."
Amazingly enough, not all people want children. It's not a decision made quickly and as the OP states it's a decision she's held for the last decade. She's not even really asking him to change his mind, she's asking why the heck he changed it in the first place when he knew damn well going into the marriage she didn't want kids.
Solomon disagrees. :P
But seriously, I'm not sure this is the sort of thing that can be resolved happily. If one partner is heart set on having kids, and the other is dead set on not having kids, there's really only one solution. If each person's opinions have been thoroughly examined and decided upon, ending the relationship and finding a new partner who shares that goal is really the only way for the person who wants to have a child to move toward that goal.
Letting it fester certainly seems like a way to have the relationship end badly.
Exactly.
You can't compromise, and if he won't, then this is the very definition of irreconcilable differences.
-edit-
Also, it sounds like the OP is pushing 30. If she were 20 and saying this, I would suggest there's at least a good possibility that she might change her mind about kids later on. But at this point, if her biological clock hasn't started ticking, it's probably not going to. So if he is waiting in hopes that she will change her mind, he's probably going to be disappointed.
Are you against adopting a non-infant?
Obviously there is NOTHING wrong with Zoltan not wanting children. She makes a good point in saying she won't have kids to make her husband happy because she doesn't want to have kids, because that would affect said child for the rest of his/her life. "Mom didn't want me, but did it to make dad happy." That's inconceivable. Yes, you bend and sometimes break for your partner in relationships, but having a child means it is not a TWOsome relationship anymore, it is about your CHILD. A child she didn't want in the first place and TOLD him so.
He was in the wrong for (presumably) hiding his feelings and going along with it. Whether he figured he could live without it or he was hoping she'd eventually change her mind.
What would happen if she took some of your advice, and gave into his wishes? She'd be resentful she had to go through pregnancy, labor and all the other shit just to give him a baby.. which then she would resent for not wanting in the first place. He might say "It's alright, I'll do everything", change diapers, feed, take to school, blahblah.. Eventually, unless he's an INCREDIBLY tolerant and a completely maternal person, he would end up resenting that Zoltan never grew to like the child, like he thought she would (given previous ungrounded expectations), and feel like everything was thrust upon him, even though that's what he said he wanted. Where's the child in the midst of this? Without a truly devoted and caring mother (which is not something you can change when she didn't want the kid in the first place, and still doesn't), and a totally stressed out and defeated father.
On the other hand.. Zoltan can tell him (again) straight forward that she doesn't desire children, but if he wants them so much later in life, why can't they spend these times together as they are? Cross that bridge when you come to it, y'know?
I think neither of them will change their views, and neither of them should have to. It just ends the relationship, and there are plenty of others out there who would want to have children with him, and who wouldn't with Zoltan. Ultimately, they have to do what is right for themselves.
Depressing subject is depressing.
Just as an aside, he never wanted biological children; he was snipped at 21 :P. He is a big adoption proponent.
The simple fact is most people want kids sooner or later, regardless of what they say when they are young. Not everyone can fight millions of years of evolution, it is probably something he feels he needs to do, and for whatever reason Zoltan is on the opposite side. It sucks, but there is no bad guy here.