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a direct assault on your eyeballs

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    Dunadan019Dunadan019 Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    im not trying to be snarky here...... but what's your point?

    ok that's a theory, do you want us to dispute your theory? agree with it?

    wrap it in a box with a bow on top?

    Dunadan019 on
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    MaedhricMaedhric Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ACSIS wrote: »
    1)


    POSNANSKY'S DATING TECHNIQUE

    Prof. Posnansky summed up his 50 year study in a 4 volume work entitled Tiahuanaco, The cradle of American Man first published in 1945. He explains his theories, which are rooted in archeoastronomy, as follows. Since Earth is tilted on its axis in respect to the plane of the solar system, the resulting angle is known as the "obliqueness of the ecliptic" (one should not confuse this with another astronomical phenomenon known as "Precession", as critics of Posnansky have done). If viewed from the earth, the planets of our solar system travel across the sky in a line called the plane of the ecliptic. At present our earth is tilted to cause this angle to be around 23 degrees and 27 minutes, but this is not constant. The earth's axis oscillates slowly between 22 degrees and 1 minute to an extreme of 24 degrees and 5 minutes.

    This cycle (repeating itself from one extreme to the other and back) takes roughly 41,000 years to complete. The alignments at the Kalasasaya temple depicts a tilt of the earth's axis amounting to 23 degrees, 8 minutes, 48 seconds, indicating a date of 15,000 B.C.

    Between 1927 and 1930 Prof. Posnansky's conclusions were studied intensively by a number of authorities. Dr. Hans Ludendorff (Director of the Astronomical Observatory of Potsdam), Friedrich Becker of the Specula Vaticana, Prof. Arnold Kohlschutter (astronomer at Bonn University), and Rolf Muller (astronomer of the Institute of Astrophysics at Potsdam) verified the accuracy of Posnansky's calculations and vouched for the reliability of his conclusions.

    The conventional practice of dating Tiahuanaco as beginning 200 A.D. and collapsing c. 1000 A.D. started with Wendell Bennett's excavations, which turned up numerous examples of pottery, small statues and other artifacts. Since it is common for later arrivals to be awed by massive ruins (sometimes attributing their origin to supernatural beings, thus replicating the "sacred" images on their own pottery and textiles), I think it is a mistake to fuse the two cultures into one, implying that the later arrivals were the same people who built the massive ruins.

    There is one solution that can satisfy all of the above mysteries regarding the ruins of Tiahuanaco. This is none other than the geological cataclysm which affected the entire globe geologically and climatically, causing the Pleistocene extinction. Thus, if Tiahuanaco was built before the end of the last Ice Age, then the depiction of the numerous Pleistocene animals (extinct for 12,000 years) are readily explainable. The other indications of the apparent age of the city (tilted seashore lines, lime deposits and silt) would then harmonize with the astronomical alignments built into the buildings. It seems to me, that Prof. Posnansky's original conclusions were correct. Thus I think it likely that at least some parts of Tiahuanaco were built at sea level around 15,000 BC.

    I've read that Posnansky's calculations were inaccurate, and later expeditions of german Americanists in Puma Punka determined the age more closely between 10,400 and 4,050 BC. Which is still damn old, but not like 15,000 years BC.

    Time dilation is a common feature in (religious) literature. Man gets into some kind of trance, another plane of existence, whatever, returns and 10.000 years have passed. Ever read Narnia, for example? That was before Einsteins theory became widely known.


    There might be alien lifeforms (most probably there are), there might be alien civilizations. They might have visited earth. But are you suggesting that aliens built the ancient city at Puma Punka?
    More probably there's some ancient civilization that has been eradicated some five to ten thousand years that we haven't yet fully discovered. That doesn't mean they were aliens.

    Atlantis is, if I followed the recent theories correctly, supposed to have been a town in the Black Sea area.

    Maedhric on
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    The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    So is it safe to assume that, just like within my own body, the appendix is mostly useless?

    The Muffin Man on
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    RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    What the hell is this about "Inca" artifacts from 10,000 years ago? The Inca culture didn't even get started until about 200 years prior to being conquered by the Spanish (200 years tops, their empire only dates back about 100 years).

    RiemannLives on
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    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Jason Todd wrote: »
    Ok, I was following along and understood up until Plato.

    Am I correct in assuming the Egyptians end up telling the Athenians about some culture we're to believe was actually a bunch of aliens?

    Actually if i am right this structure is not man made. The only civilization wich we are aware of wich possibly could have build it is the legendary Atlantis. Since i think about it as research - and the question is always: is that right? - the Atlantis myth is included. If i am mistaken i just fount a Atlantean ruin. Not exactly what i looked for but thats all i uncovered so far.

    The idea that the Atlanteans "were a bunch of aliens" can also not to be ruled out. But we are talking about stonage here. Something is definetely VERY fishy. Greece is definetly not 11000 (iceage *cough* *cough*) years old - wich is after Plato the time of the invasion - so something is not right. I suggest reading the last part of the extract (Appendix B) where it becomes pretty clear that an old myth was being used as an example for Plato's ideal state. However its the only recorded mentioning of Atlantis we have. If its human made the best lead is Atlantis. Or... its something different.

    Humans were not that advanced ten millenia ago. Thats my point.

    ACSIS on
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    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Morlock: Get help dude.

    That OP is a bag of crazy and if you think you have actually presented a single coherent thought therein you are in dire need of some anti-psychotics.

    Oh, its rather unconventional, absolutely. But incoherent?

    ACSIS on
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    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    What the hell is this about "Inca" artifacts from 10,000 years ago? The Inca culture didn't even get started until about 200 years prior to being conquered by the Spanish (200 years tops, their empire only dates back about 100 years).

    Oh, it is not Inca. Its just the Inca built their capital right next to it.

    ACSIS on
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    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Incoherent is putting it mildly. No two people have read that thing the same way so far.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
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    elfdudeelfdude Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Though the postulation that aliens have come to this world and changed our building techniques is an interesting one it's also an untestable hypothesis.

    Key here is to remember that superior craftsmenship does not necessarily mean superior technology. Technology today makes up for shoddy workmanship with high tolerances for mistakes built right into the plans. Show me a building from back then that requires a good grasp of physics or even mathematics and you'll see my point, there simply aren't any. Any tom joe or salley can stack rocks together so that they fit, it's more difficult to cut them but still within the realm of possibility (i.e the rock wall in my garden).

    Further saying we need to go to space to survive is ridiculous. Our planet will be here for thousands of years more if not billions. By that point in time if we're not demigods or haven't killed ourselves off we deserve to be swallowed up by an exploding star (the process of which takes a very long time).

    Alternatively we need to invest heavily into space exploration because it contributes to advancement of technology, building techniques, efficiency and overall improvement of society as a whole. Whoever begins harvesting offworld resources will become the new Exxon as rare minerals on earth are a bit more common off of it.

    The question isn't why should we do it but why shouldn't we do it. It's a question that seems to plague mankind and split us into party lines. One side is pragmatic and efficient but lackluster and boring and the otherside is spontaneous and ambitious with efficiency tossed out the window. One leads to peace and stagnation the other leads to conflict and advancement.

    Short answer: Yes we need to research space travel but for far more practical and real reasons than you've outlined.

    edit:

    It's also important to remember that humans have always found ways to work hard materials, no matter the toughness a diamond will always grind and shape another diamond, so to is true of the hardness of any material that appears to be worked. Not to mention even if it is amazingly hard slamming it hard enough into anything will break it (even diamonds). The fact that quartz one of the most common substances on earth is a hardness of 9 also calls into question the idea that humans could not work stones of a hardness of 8.

    elfdude on
    Every man is wise when attacked by a mad dog; fewer when pursued by a mad woman; only the wisest survive when attacked by a mad notion.
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    RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ACSIS wrote: »
    Morlock: Get help dude.

    That OP is a bag of crazy and if you think you have actually presented a single coherent thought therein you are in dire need of some anti-psychotics.

    Oh, its rather unconventional, absolutely. But incoherent?

    Yes, incoherent. No one here is even directly talking about your thesis because we can't tell what the crap you are babbling about. This would be slightly more credible if it was scrawled a damp hunk of cardboard using a crude ink made from seagulls and stray cats.

    You need to clean that up a bit and make your ideas understandable.

    Then, and only then, can we rip the substance of your claims to shreds.

    RiemannLives on
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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Earth IS a spaceship.

    Kagera on
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    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Maedhric wrote: »
    I've read that Posnansky's calculations were inaccurate, and later expeditions of german Americanists in Puma Punka determined the age more closely between 10,400 and 4,050 BC. Which is still damn old, but not like 15,000 years BC.

    Time dilation is a common feature in (religious) literature. Man gets into some kind of trance, another plane of existence, whatever, returns and 10.000 years have passed. Ever read Narnia, for example? That was before Einsteins theory became widely known.


    There might be alien lifeforms (most probably there are), there might be alien civilizations. They might have visited earth. But are you suggesting that aliens built the ancient city at Puma Punka?
    More probably there's some ancient civilization that has been eradicated some five to ten thousand years that we haven't yet fully discovered. That doesn't mean they were aliens.

    Atlantis is, if I followed the recent theories correctly, supposed to have been a town in the Black Sea area.

    There were three expeditions.

    The first guess was 15000 BC.
    The scientific community could not accept that.

    They sent a second team. The guess was 10000-4000 BC.
    Still unacceptable.

    The last (and accepted one) dates it around the Inca period and claims its Inca because of Inca pottery found next to it. That was acceptable to them. Based on pottery the world was in sync again. They only missed astrological anlignments, seashore lines and depictions of pre-iceage animals wich were not explained at all. They din't correct Posnasky's calculation. They abandoned those calculations totally because those calculation WERE correct. But simply not fitting in ther viwe of the world. So the took some pices of pottery and... thats what i find unacceptable.

    Time dilation is a common feature in religious texts, absolutely. The question i raise is simply: why? How could they be aware of this? Religious text are nice and harmless unless you stumble 5000 years later about scientific proof, validating them as correct. Its like finding a bronze age Jetfighter (and those... but i wanted to keep it short).

    About Puma Puncu... there are ancient civilizations. But none ten millenia old. It was simply before our time. Well we have the record of Plato with some glaring inconcistencies. If you belive Greece is 11000 years old you can accept that. I can't.

    ACSIS on
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    Earth IS a spaceship.
    Indeed.

    But let me ask you this: Did you ever see a spaceship made of millions of miles of solid rock, with its passengers living on the outer hull with nothing but gas to protect them from the vacuum of space? Of course not.

    Earth is hollow. The spaceship - the command centre, the living quarters, the engines, etc. - are all inside. We're some kind of space mold that grew on the outer hull.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
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    jothkijothki Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ACSIS wrote: »
    Morlock: Get help dude.

    That OP is a bag of crazy and if you think you have actually presented a single coherent thought therein you are in dire need of some anti-psychotics.

    Oh, its rather unconventional, absolutely. But incoherent?

    Yes, incoherent. No one here is even directly talking about your thesis because we can't tell what the crap you are babbling about. This would be slightly more credible if it was scrawled a damp hunk of cardboard using a crude ink made from seagulls and stray cats.

    You need to clean that up a bit and make your ideas understandable.

    Then, and only then, can we rip the substance of your claims to shreds.

    One suggestion that might be helpful is that these forums collapse the text inside spoiler tags. If you want to keep all of that content but make it easier to page through it, you could do somthing like this:

    Short introduction
    Enormous wall of text that you've edited to be more readable.
    Brief summary of what was in the spoiler.
    Yet another enormous wall of text, also edited.
    Yet another summary.
    Conclusion, so we can get the overall idea of what you're trying to say.

    Edit: The summaries are the most important thing. Make your points concise, and the background for those points not necessary in order to understand them. People should be able to figure out what you're saying without reading your jusifications. If they want to dispute one of your points, they can go ahead and read the rest of what you've written in order to see how you arrived at that conclusion.

    jothki on
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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Richy wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Earth IS a spaceship.
    Indeed.

    But let me ask you this: Did you ever see a spaceship made of millions of miles of solid rock, with its passengers living on the outer hull with nothing but gas to protect them from the vacuum of space? Of course not.

    Earth is hollow. The spaceship - the command centre, the living quarters, the engines, etc. - are all inside. We're some kind of space mold that grew on the outer hull.

    So then who's in the spaceship?

    :shock:

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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    wazillawazilla Having a late dinner Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Earth IS a spaceship.
    Indeed.

    But let me ask you this: Did you ever see a spaceship made of millions of miles of solid rock, with its passengers living on the outer hull with nothing but gas to protect them from the vacuum of space? Of course not.

    Earth is hollow. The spaceship - the command centre, the living quarters, the engines, etc. - are all inside. We're some kind of space mold that grew on the outer hull.

    So then who's in the spaceship?

    :shock:

    Lizard men.

    Duh.

    wazilla on
    Psn:wazukki
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ACSIS wrote: »
    Time dilation is a common feature in religious texts, absolutely. The question i raise is simply: why? How could they be aware of this? Religious text are nice and harmless unless you stumble 5000 years later about scientific proof, validating them as correct. Its like finding a bronze age Jetfighter (and those... but i wanted to keep it short).
    Other common themes of religious and mythological texts include global floods, dragons, spirits of dead people, winged horses, talking animals, reincarnation, gods creating the world in a few hours/days through sheer strength of will, ancient curses and prophecies. They were bound to get one right.

    Richy on
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    RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Speaking of evidence not fitting ones "world view" what about the more recent (and accurate) evidence showing that Tiwanaku is not and has never been on the shoreline of lake Titicaca. The features identified as shoreline (let alone docks) were later shown to be no such thing.

    It was a mistake. No surprise considering the time period (early 1900s). No worse then similar problems of excavation at Troy or Mycenae.

    And no matter how much you stand back and squint there are no depictions of pre ice-age animals there.

    RiemannLives on
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    ItalaxItalax Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    wazilla wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Earth IS a spaceship.
    Indeed.

    But let me ask you this: Did you ever see a spaceship made of millions of miles of solid rock, with its passengers living on the outer hull with nothing but gas to protect them from the vacuum of space? Of course not.

    Earth is hollow. The spaceship - the command centre, the living quarters, the engines, etc. - are all inside. We're some kind of space mold that grew on the outer hull.

    So then who's in the spaceship?

    :shock:

    Lizard men.

    Duh.

    I'm calling Cthulu.

    As well as Godzilla, Walt Disney and that guy from the Subway ads.

    Italax on
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    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    elfdude wrote: »
    Though the postulation that aliens have come to this world and changed our building techniques is an interesting one it's also an untestable hypothesis.

    Key here is to remember that superior craftsmenship does not necessarily mean superior technology. Technology today makes up for shoddy workmanship with high tolerances for mistakes built right into the plans. Show me a building from back then that requires a good grasp of physics or even mathematics and you'll see my point, there simply aren't any. Any tom joe or salley can stack rocks together so that they fit, it's more difficult to cut them but still within the realm of possibility (i.e the rock wall in my garden).

    Further saying we need to go to space to survive is ridiculous. Our planet will be here for thousands of years more if not billions. By that point in time if we're not demigods or haven't killed ourselves off we deserve to be swallowed up by an exploding star (the process of which takes a very long time).

    Alternatively we need to invest heavily into space exploration because it contributes to advancement of technology, building techniques, efficiency and overall improvement of society as a whole. Whoever begins harvesting offworld resources will become the new Exxon as rare minerals on earth are a bit more common off of it.

    The question isn't why should we do it but why shouldn't we do it. It's a question that seems to plague mankind and split us into party lines. One side is pragmatic and efficient but lackluster and boring and the otherside is spontaneous and ambitious with efficiency tossed out the window. One leads to peace and stagnation the other leads to conflict and advancement.

    Short answer: Yes we need to research space travel but for far more practical and real reasons than you've outlined.

    edit:

    It's also important to remember that humans have always found ways to work hard materials, no matter the toughness a diamond will always grind and shape another diamond, so to is true of the hardness of any material that appears to be worked. Not to mention even if it is amazingly hard slamming it hard enough into anything will break it (even diamonds). The fact that quartz one of the most common substances on earth is a hardness of 9 also calls into question the idea that humans could not work stones of a hardness of 8.

    Well certainly superior craftsmanship does not neccesarily mean superior technology. But working with diorit pre iceage is simply beyond human capabilities. We were tribal hunter gatherers then. We did not even agriculture. Using a spear and building diorite stuctures out of prefabricated genaralized construction elements are two entirely different set of shoes. We simply couldn't cut it without bronze tools. Wich is an alloy. I am not talking about smacking it together. I am talking about perfecly fitting building elements with drills, perfectly positioned one pice like the other. Like... from factory.

    And the answer is four billion years. After that the sun will have exhausted its fuel supply. You can calculate that. Its not ridiculous. If we want to survive we have to leave. Or get fuel for the sun. Wich means we have to leave also. Time will tell if humanity has the edge to do it. Others seem to have done it already. Probably are doing it still. Life overcomes obstracles. Thats what life does. From the sea to the land to the sky. Why not into space? Because you do not like the idea?

    ACSIS on
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    RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Richy wrote: »
    ACSIS wrote: »
    Time dilation is a common feature in religious texts, absolutely. The question i raise is simply: why? How could they be aware of this? Religious text are nice and harmless unless you stumble 5000 years later about scientific proof, validating them as correct. Its like finding a bronze age Jetfighter (and those... but i wanted to keep it short).
    Other common themes of religious and mythological texts include global floods, dragons, spirits of dead people, winged horses, talking animals, reincarnation, gods creating the world in a few hours/days through sheer strength of will, ancient curses and prophecies. They were bound to get one right.

    I also completely disagree that they contain "time dilation" in a sense even remotely comparable to relativity. They contain "time dilation" in the sense that people like to inflate numbers from the past. Just look at the ages of the characters in the Tanakh. The further you get from written materiel (the period of Solomionic Monarchy at the absolute earliest) the older people get. We inflate our heroes, and patriarchs, in our minds.

    Dates get older, armies get bigger, temples grander.

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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    "We did not even agriculture"?

    Duffel on
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Most scholars agree that the hobos almost certainly went to the stars.

    KalTorak on
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    fjafjanfjafjan Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Other common themes of religious and mythological texts include global floods, dragons, spirits of dead people, winged horses, talking animals, reincarnation, gods creating the world in a few hours/days through sheer strength of will, ancient curses and prophecies. They were bound to get one right.
    more importantly, talking about something is widely different from understanding something. Not to mention that waking up and realizing a whole week has gone is something I think most people can experience, it's not so hard to extend that to a longer period. That's quite far removed from saying "so imagine you're moving at nearly the same velocity as electromagnetic disturbances move in vacuum...", considering most of the last words in that sentence would be incomprehensible to someone from an Inca civilization. Most religions also involve someone healing lepers and the like, yet I hardly think they had the technology to regrow limbs as we are approaching today.

    And yeah, the OP was really fucking impenetrable, and the Plato text was annoying due to the strange formatting.

    fjafjan on
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    MaedhricMaedhric Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ACSIS wrote: »
    There were three expeditions.

    The first guess was 15000 BC.
    The scientific community could not accept that.

    They sent a second team. The guess was 10000-4000 BC.
    Still unacceptable.

    The last (and accepted one) dates it around the Inca period and claims its Inca because of Inca pottery found next to it. That was acceptable to them. Based on pottery the world was in sync again. They only missed astrological anlignments, seashore lines and depictions of pre-iceage animals wich were not explained at all. They din't correct Posnasky's calculation. They abandoned those calculations totally because those calculation WERE correct. But simply not fitting in ther viwe of the world. So the took some pices of pottery and... thats what i find unacceptable.

    I agree, If their measurements were correct AND the measurements/craftsmanship of those people who built that place were correct, it probably is somewhere between seventeen and six thousand years old.
    Time dilation is a common feature in religious texts, absolutely. The question i raise is simply: why? How could they be aware of this? Religious text are nice and harmless unless you stumble 5000 years later about scientific proof, validating them as correct. Its like finding a bronze age Jetfighter (and those... but i wanted to keep it short).

    Human Imagination? Exagerration? Subjective time dilation is experienced by anyone of us every day. The hours I spend in front of my favourite video game seem to fly by, waiting for the bus seems to take forever. Same for trance-like states, sleep, coma or unconsciousness.
    About Puma Puncu... there are ancient civilizations. But none ten millenia old. It was simply before our time.

    None that we know of are ten millenia old. South america hasn't been studied by archaeologists with the same effort as europe has been, and still new discoveries are being made in europe. The simplest solution would be an ancient civilization with outstanding craftsmanship that has been wiped out by some disaster several millenia ago.

    Maedhric on
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    RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Maedhric - the information used to date that site to any time period before 100-800 CE are from flawed work done in the 30s. That site has been studied much more carefully, using better techniques and technology in the 80 years since.

    It is extremely old for the Americas. Which is to say, maybe 1500 years. I am not downplaying it's real importance. But the idea that it is older than human civilization is just not supported by the evidence.

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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    fjafjan wrote: »
    Other common themes of religious and mythological texts include global floods, dragons, spirits of dead people, winged horses, talking animals, reincarnation, gods creating the world in a few hours/days through sheer strength of will, ancient curses and prophecies. They were bound to get one right.
    more importantly, talking about something is widely different from understanding something. Not to mention that waking up and realizing a whole week has gone is something I think most people can experience, it's not so hard to extend that to a longer period. That's quite far removed from saying "so imagine you're moving at nearly the same velocity as electromagnetic disturbances move in vacuum...", considering most of the last words in that sentence would be incomprehensible to someone from an Inca civilization. Most religions also involve someone healing lepers and the like, yet I hardly think they had the technology to regrow limbs as we are approaching today.

    And yeah, the OP was really fucking impenetrable, and the Plato text was annoying due to the strange formatting.
    Just wait a few hundred years, when scientists discover Temporally-Oriented Objectively-Linear Time (or TOOL Time for short). Then people will sit back and wonder how Tim Allen could have been such a genius, to grasp advanced physics centuries before anyone else.

    Richy on
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    AlphaPiZeroAlphaPiZero Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ACSIS wrote: »
    There were three expeditions.

    The first guess was 15000 BC.
    The scientific community could not accept that.

    They sent a second team. The guess was 10000-4000 BC.
    Still unacceptable.

    The last (and accepted one) dates it around the Inca period and claims its Inca because of Inca pottery found next to it. That was acceptable to them. Based on pottery the world was in sync again. They only missed astrological anlignments, seashore lines and depictions of pre-iceage animals wich were not explained at all. They din't correct Posnasky's calculation. They abandoned those calculations totally because those calculation WERE correct. But simply not fitting in ther viwe of the world. So the took some pices of pottery and... thats what i find unacceptable.

    There's lots of "man whut" in this ...thing you call the precursor to a manuscript, but this one pushes one of my main buttons - the complete obliviousness to the workings of science and rationality. The idea that "calculations being ignored because they are not fitting with their view of the world" is probably not only incorrect, but a big "who cares?" Even were it true. It would be exactly what we would expect.

    Given a choice between "Maybe the calculations are off", "Maybe the calculations are right based on the data, but there's something else messing up the measurements we're using for the dating" or any number of other, small, modest explanations of inconsistency is business as usual in the scientific community. Why? Because accepting the single, small, and rather weak piece single data point over a mass of other data points which have been collected over a numebr of years and stood the test of time is crazy. That one piece of evidence could be an anomaly is a far less radical suggestion than mutliple pieces of evidence being an anomaly.

    If as time was going on it was becoming increasingly clear that the conventional account just didn't add up, that there were a great deal of strong anomalous data points, then you'd have a point if they were completely ignored or lamely explained away with ad-hoc hypotheses.

    But that isn't how it is, and 2 or 3 vague (and heavily disputed) anomalies is all that you've got, then you're damn right that the scientific community (and indeed any rational person) is going to stick with the orthodox interpretation.

    AlphaPiZero on
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    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    The Unexplained Mysteries forum is thisaway.

    I think you'll fit in quite well.

    Hexmage-PA on
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    AlphaPiZeroAlphaPiZero Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    ACSIS wrote: »
    elfdude wrote: »
    Though the postulation that aliens have come to this world and changed our building techniques is an interesting one it's also an untestable hypothesis.

    Key here is to remember that superior craftsmenship does not necessarily mean superior technology. Technology today makes up for shoddy workmanship with high tolerances for mistakes built right into the plans. Show me a building from back then that requires a good grasp of physics or even mathematics and you'll see my point, there simply aren't any. Any tom joe or salley can stack rocks together so that they fit, it's more difficult to cut them but still within the realm of possibility (i.e the rock wall in my garden).

    Further saying we need to go to space to survive is ridiculous. Our planet will be here for thousands of years more if not billions. By that point in time if we're not demigods or haven't killed ourselves off we deserve to be swallowed up by an exploding star (the process of which takes a very long time).

    Alternatively we need to invest heavily into space exploration because it contributes to advancement of technology, building techniques, efficiency and overall improvement of society as a whole. Whoever begins harvesting offworld resources will become the new Exxon as rare minerals on earth are a bit more common off of it.

    The question isn't why should we do it but why shouldn't we do it. It's a question that seems to plague mankind and split us into party lines. One side is pragmatic and efficient but lackluster and boring and the otherside is spontaneous and ambitious with efficiency tossed out the window. One leads to peace and stagnation the other leads to conflict and advancement.

    Short answer: Yes we need to research space travel but for far more practical and real reasons than you've outlined.

    edit:

    It's also important to remember that humans have always found ways to work hard materials, no matter the toughness a diamond will always grind and shape another diamond, so to is true of the hardness of any material that appears to be worked. Not to mention even if it is amazingly hard slamming it hard enough into anything will break it (even diamonds). The fact that quartz one of the most common substances on earth is a hardness of 9 also calls into question the idea that humans could not work stones of a hardness of 8.

    Well certainly superior craftsmanship does not neccesarily mean superior technology. But working with diorit pre iceage is simply beyond human capabilities. We were tribal hunter gatherers then. We did not even agriculture. Using a spear and building diorite stuctures out of prefabricated genaralized construction elements are two entirely different set of shoes. We simply couldn't cut it without bronze tools. Wich is an alloy. I am not talking about smacking it together. I am talking about perfecly fitting building elements with drills, perfectly positioned one pice like the other. Like... from factory.

    Errr. A magic space-faring factory that uses highly technologically advanced materials, comes to Earth and discovers they can do amazing things with ROCKS? Rather than sticking with materials strong, light or otherwise downright amazing enough to survive (generously) countless decades through space and entry into and out of an atmosphere?

    I'm not exactly finding a plausible motivation for setting up a rock-pyramid factory on what was the astrological equivalent of Bumcrack, Idaho 20,000 years ago.

    AlphaPiZero on
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    MaedhricMaedhric Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Maedhric - the information used to date that site to any time period before 100-800 CE are from flawed work done in the 30s. That site has been studied much more carefully, using better techniques and technology in the 80 years since.

    It is extremely old for the Americas. Which is to say, maybe 1500 years. I am not downplaying it's real importance. But the idea that it is older than human civilization is just not supported by the evidence.

    Just what I read, not what I believe, which is why I said if they were correct. I don't know about modern studies at that site other than that C14 dating of some organic material found there which could have been taken there by later dwellers.
    Human civilization is, if you set as a beginning the neolithic revolution, 14,000 - 11,000 years old, the first cities up to 8,000 years old. That's for eurasia, I know next to nothing about ancient south- and mesoamerican civilizations before the Incas.

    Maedhric on
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    The Unexplained Mysteries forum is thisaway.

    I think you'll fit in quite well.
    First thread I checked on that forum: Atlantis found on Google Maps.

    Richy on
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    ACSISACSIS Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    And no matter how much you stand back and squint there are no depictions of pre ice-age animals there.

    I saw a picture. I wish i had copied it or its link. I try to find it again, i promise.
    I am not entirely sure about Puma Puncu myself. It seems out of order for architecture alone.
    There are arguments about the age of the site since its discovery. Thats also why i kept in the plato dialogue.
    Maedhric wrote: »
    Time dilation is a common feature in religious texts, absolutely. The question i raise is simply: why? How could they be aware of this? Religious text are nice and harmless unless you stumble 5000 years later about scientific proof, validating them as correct. Its like finding a bronze age Jetfighter (and those... but i wanted to keep it short).

    Human Imagination? Exagerration? Subjective time dilation is experienced by anyone of us every day. The hours I spend in front of my favourite video game seem to fly by, waiting for the bus seems to take forever. Same for trance-like states, sleep, coma or unconsciousness.

    We pointed out its a common concept in religious texts. And now you are acting "oh, common its just coincidence"? Is it? Its a rather big pile of coincidence. That makes it higly implausible for being mere coincidence.

    ACSIS on
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    MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Everytime I see something like this I just shake my head. It makes me think of the first chapter of Carl Sagan's Candle in the Dark. Why do people have to bring up all this pseudo-science tin foil craziness when there are so many actual mysteries and amazing things in real science. It just boggles my mind. If you want a mystery go look up something that really isn't so tinfoil hat like.

    I mean you put all that info in about the possibility of life outside of Earth in the solar system, why not just focus on that and ignore the tinfoil aliens have visted us perspective.

    Mazzyx on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited March 2009
    Fun fact: The OP was found scrawled on the backside of the same napkin as the Laffer Curve.

    Seriously man, your techno-babble is pretty fucking impenetrable, and we are a board full of science geeks.

    ElJeffe on
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    Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against Russian warships) Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    That's because it's not techno-babble, it's delusional babble. Makes even less sense.

    Gabriel_Pitt on
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    MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I would like to call it pseudo-technobabble, you know it kind of reminds me of a book series I read. It was called Area 51, there were Aliens and Atlantis and Merlin. Rather fun book series and used a lot of the pseudo-babble he is talking about.

    Mazzyx on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited March 2009
    Locked for lack of sense-making.

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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