And redx, I don't see how saying "I like women who are naturally beautiful" makes me a judgmental twat. It's not fair to hold someone accountable for their tastes and preferences.
gee 00 that is fucking awsome. You love people who naturally look beautiful.
most people don't, and you are kinda a judgemental twat and probably are part of the problem. Hell, by your statment don't love women with physical flaws.
Calm the fuck down. He was saying that women who don't slather makeup on > women who slather makeup on. There are so many women I know who, if they would just put down the god damned makeup case, would look so much better. As it is, they look like clowns.
I know what he intended to say. That isn't what he said though.
now. hows about going and aquanting yourself with how the various social and personal issues related to distorted sense of beauty actually manafest themselfs in people.
my point is not that he hates women, but that he is the kind of person who would say something stupid, and cause people shitloads of stress.
The problem is not that our actual standards of beauty are all that out of wack, but how those views are exposued and percived by a rather large segment of the population.
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They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
And redx, I don't see how saying "I like women who are naturally beautiful" makes me a judgmental twat. It's not fair to hold someone accountable for their tastes and preferences.
not even pedophiles? :P
You can't really blame them for being attracted to kids, though you certainly can blame them for acting on that.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
edited November 2006
I hope we can all acknowledge that men can be every bit as self-conscious and critical of their appearance as woman can, if not more so. Popular culture doesn't just define the "ideal" female form, you know.
I hope we can all acknowledge that men can be every bit as self-conscious and critical of their appearance as woman can, if not more so. Popular culture doesn't just define the "ideal" female form, you know.
But by the same token we don't have dads putting their sons on diets when they are still in grade school to "keep them from getting fat". I'd definetly say women on average put more emphasis on their looks than men do.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
I hope we can all acknowledge that men can be every bit as self-conscious and critical of their appearance as woman can, if not more so. Popular culture doesn't just define the "ideal" female form, you know.
But by the same token we don't have dads putting their sons on diets when they are still in grade school to "keep them from getting fat".
I hope we can all acknowledge that men can be every bit as self-conscious and critical of their appearance as woman can, if not more so. Popular culture doesn't just define the "ideal" female form, you know.
But by the same token we don't have dads putting their sons on diets when they are still in grade school to "keep them from getting fat". I'd definetly say women on average put more emphasis on their looks than men do.
on average, but as indivuals there are plenty of totally fucked up males running about, and as I alluded to earlier it is less socially acceptable and there is less of a support network(for both indivuals and them as a group).
I hope we can all acknowledge that men can be every bit as self-conscious and critical of their appearance as woman can, if not more so. Popular culture doesn't just define the "ideal" female form, you know.
But by the same token we don't have dads putting their sons on diets when they are still in grade school to "keep them from getting fat".
We don't?
Maybe we do have insecure dads turning their children into anorexics, but I sure has hell havent heard of it.
on average, but as indivuals there are plenty of totally fucked up males running about, and as I alluded to earlier it is less socially acceptable and there is less of a support network(for both indivuals and them as a group).
I can agree with that.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
I hope we can all acknowledge that men can be every bit as self-conscious and critical of their appearance as woman can, if not more so. Popular culture doesn't just define the "ideal" female form, you know.
But by the same token we don't have dads putting their sons on diets when they are still in grade school to "keep them from getting fat".
We don't?
Maybe we do have insecure dads turning their children into anorexics, but I sure has hell havent heard of it.
We have overcontrolling dads who push their sons onto harsh athletic regimens in order to make them into better athletes. I think that qualifies along the same vein.
No, because we don't have the media forcing the "High School Football Star" down out throat. If anything it's the oposite. The jocks get a lot of bad press. They're stereotyped as being bullies with double didgit IQs.
The media's ideal male is androgynous. (On the normal end we have Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt. On the extreem, Leonardo Dicaprio and Orlando Bloom.)
But I'm open minded. Why don't you look at the men of Hollywood or fashon and explain to me how that makes fathers force their sons into football.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
No, because we don't have the media forcing the "High School Football Star" down out throat. If anything it's the oposite. The jocks get a lot of bad press. They're stereotyped as being bullies with double didgit IQs.
This will vary based on your location. Ask Dyna about Texas and their highschool football fixation. It's pretty extreme, and this strain, while probably most dominant in Texas, is definitely a big thing throughout the south and midwest.
No, because we don't have the media forcing the "High School Football Star" down out throat. If anything it's the oposite. The jocks get a lot of bad press. They're stereotyped as being bullies with double didgit IQs.
The media's ideal male is androgynous. (On the normal end we have Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt. On the extreem, Leonardo Dicaprio and Orlando Bloom.)
But I'm open minded. Why don't you look at the men of Hollywood or fashon and explain to me how that makes fathers force their sons into football.
Your definition of "media" is pretty narrow. What about sports stars? What about goddamn wrestling & all of that shit?
I hope we can all acknowledge that men can be every bit as self-conscious and critical of their appearance as woman can, if not more so. Popular culture doesn't just define the "ideal" female form, you know.
True. That beach scene in Casino Royale when he's getting out of the water (half-naked) and sees the chick riding the horse, the first thought that came to my mind unbidden was "man, I should start working out again." It made me feel extremely self-conscious and lacking, even though it was only for a fleeting moment.
I hope we can all acknowledge that men can be every bit as self-conscious and critical of their appearance as woman can, if not more so. Popular culture doesn't just define the "ideal" female form, you know.
But by the same token we don't have dads putting their sons on diets when they are still in grade school to "keep them from getting fat". I'd definetly say women on average put more emphasis on their looks than men do.
True. I think it's because of the way sexes regard each other.
Men on average are far more easily affected by outside appearance than women are. I can't speak for everyone here, but I think physical appearance has a far more important role in the first-minute attraction for men than it does for women. How many women think, when they see an attractive guy, "wow, I wanna fuck him"? True, it happens sometimes, but not as much as it happens for men when they see a beautiful woman.
And this results in women putting more emphasis on their outside looks than men.
I hope we can all acknowledge that men can be every bit as self-conscious and critical of their appearance as woman can, if not more so. Popular culture doesn't just define the "ideal" female form, you know.
But by the same token we don't have dads putting their sons on diets when they are still in grade school to "keep them from getting fat".
We don't?
Maybe we do have insecure dads turning their children into anorexics, but I sure has hell havent heard of it.
We have overcontrolling dads who push their sons onto harsh athletic regimens in order to make them into better athletes. I think that qualifies along the same vein.
Yes, but not to the same extent that moms are completely obsessed with trying to make their daughters the spotlight of high-school proms or whatever.
Think about how this plays in popular culture. Think about in how many movies there are scenes where the female antagonist makes a grand appearance, all eyes turned on her, she has the spotlight, she's smiling, etc. Can you imagine a guy in such a spotlight?
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
No, because we don't have the media forcing the "High School Football Star" down out throat.
Okay, first: *Cough*Friday Night Lights*Cough*
Second, we have professional athletes glorified by mainstream popular culture all the time. They are put up as examples of what "real" mean "should" look like.
But I'm open minded. Why don't you look at the men of Hollywood or fashon and explain to me how that makes fathers force their sons into football.
Where did I say Hollywood is driving insecure fathers to push their sons into football? If you're going to strawman my argument, at least have the decency to make more than a half-assed attempt at it.
And football is just an example; it's not the only sport boys are being pushed to their physical limits by. Baseball, soccer, wrestling, swimming, and track come to mind, just to name a few.
Yes, but not to the same extent that moms are completely obsessed with trying to make their daughters the spotlight of high-school proms or whatever.
Uh, yes we do. For every mom obsessed with making her daughter into the next prom queen, there's a dad obsessed with making his son into the next quarterback.
Think about how this plays in popular culture. Think about in how many movies there are scenes where the female antagonist makes a grand appearance, all eyes turned on her, she has the spotlight, she's smiling, etc. Can you imagine a guy in such a spotlight?
Yes, yes I can. Grandiose appearances are not limited to female antagonists, you know.
Personally, I find the popular conception of beauty disgusting. Not just because of the unattainable and ultimately damaging goals it sets for people, I genuinely find it unattractive.
Generally speaking I prefer people without makeup at all. Subtle things don't really bother me much, I guess, but heavy makeup creeps me out (with exceptions made for certain kinds of eye makeup on certain people).
The media's ideal male is androgynous. (On the normal end we have Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt. On the extreem, Leonardo Dicaprio and Orlando Bloom.)
I realize this is straying a bit off topic but what? People joke about Leonardo DiCaprio being somewhat of a pretty boy but I'd hardly call him androgynous, much less to an extreme. Honestly, a few of the people you named could easily be called stereotypically masculine.
See, this is a much more complex issue than most people like to consider.
Thinness? Done properly, yeah, it -is- better.
We live past 30 now. If you're a dozen pounds over your ideal weight, you're likely to have a reduced lifespan, be unable to participate in as much of life, cost more, etc etc.
Body shape and type has a huge effect on your potential. Playing sports with friends. Endurance for staying awake and chatting or walking somewhere to meet someone or do something. Playing with your kids. Not to mention the objects you can use/wear/fit through.
If you're overweight, you've got a whole collection of limitations and possible limitations.
And that's not even getting in to the mental results of it. Overweight people often end up with social issues due to their childhoods. Not necessarily because they were attacked over it, but because they were less physically able to participate with the thinner kids. Children who are running free don't want to be held up by a Chubby Buddy.
All of that contributes to the way we react to people of less agile proportions.
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Now, if you want to talk changes in the notions of beauty...
Being in to larger forms? Back when dying of starvation wasn't so uncommon.
Being in to things like pale skin, long fingernails, sickly, frail bodied, and fucked up feet? Back when it was used to prove that someone didn't work on a farm.
Boyish forms?
Hell, to be honest, I'm guessing it has to do with the supposed tendency for homosexual men to get involved in fashion design. Romans all over again.
"]Yes, but not to the same extent that moms are completely obsessed with trying to make their daughters the spotlight of high-school proms or whatever.
Uh, yes we do. For every mom obsessed with making her daughter into the next prom queen, there's a dad obsessed with making his son into the next quarterback.
I disagree. While it's true that some dads can really push their kids towards being good in competitive sports, I don't think it's to the same extent.
Think about how this plays in popular culture. Think about in how many movies there are scenes where the female antagonist makes a grand appearance, all eyes turned on her, she has the spotlight, she's smiling, etc. Can you imagine a guy in such a spotlight?
Yes, yes I can. Grandiose appearances are not limited to female antagonists, you know.
But they are far, far more common among female antagonists. The kind of scene I have described is extremely common in pop culture. With male antagonists, not so.
I mean, maybe they make grandiose entrances with guns blazing or something, but that's hardly has anything to do with the concept of beauty.
Hacksaw, you missed the point by a day and a mile. Sports stars are worshipped for their athletic ability, NOT their physical apearance. Whatever the reasons for forcing a child into sports or how often it happensz, they are NOT done to improve their physical apearance.
The media's ideal male is androgynous. (On the normal end we have Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt. On the extreem, Leonardo Dicaprio and Orlando Bloom.)
I realize this is straying a bit off topic but what? People joke about Leonardo DiCaprio being somewhat of a pretty boy but I'd hardly call him androgynous, much less to an extreme. Honestly, a few of the people you named could easily be called stereotypically masculine.
Ok, who would you define as androgynous and who would you define as masculine and which end of the spectrum would you say is dominant (in Hollywood) in this day and age?
Hacksaw, you missed the point by a day and a mile. Sports stars are worshipped for their athletic ability, NOT their physical apearance. Whatever the reasons for forcing a child into sports or how often it happensz, they are NOT done to improve their physical apearance.
Well, they are worshipped for their physical appearance, just not to the same extent they are worshipped for their athletic ability. Far from it, actually.
A sports star is a sports star first and an idol for good-looks second. Unless we're talking about the male version of someone like Anna Kournikova, that is.
When the dad is pushing the kid to become a sports player, he isn't thinking about how working out makes the kid look better. He's thinking about how working out makes him better at that particular sport, be it faster, more accurate, stronger, whatever. Whereas the mom, when she wants her daughter to be the spotlight of the night, has good-looks in mind.
That is the difference here, the one Hacksaw seems to have missed.
Honestly, I think beauty obsession generally reflects other, deeper, more sutble emotional issues. It's very similar to other obsessions, used to avoid handling or addressing core issues the person has. Overeating is no different, which is why things like fat studies and naafa piss me off. People need to work on the roots of their problems, not have their defense mechanisms condoned. What constitutes beauty has changed as the environment's fitness requirements have changed. Back in the day fat was good, because you might starve next winter without it. Now fat is easy to rack up and likely to give you a heart attack before you finish raising your kids to adulthood.
Personally I respond better on a gut level to women who are wearing no makeup or maybe lip gloss. I'm very personality driven. I used to think it was kind of bizarre, I mean aren't guys supposed to respond to looks? WHAT KIND OF MAN AM I? But I've gotten over it.
Some of you guys are being ridiculous. "I don't like girls who look like they applied their makeup with a shotgun," and "I like girls who are naturally pretty." Are you guys serious? First of all, I'm pretty sure that everyone likes it when a girl knows how to apply makeup correctly, because quite frankly it makes them look better.
Now stop. Do guys put on makeup? Um, no. By that cultural standard alone women are forced to care more about their appearance. Now how many girls go on diets when they're barely overweight (if they're overweight at all) compared to guys who go on diets?
I honestly am having a hard time believing that some of you are saying that guys have it as bad as girls do when it comes to beauty and appearance. Do you guys watch the same TV, see the same movies, or read the same magazines that the rest of the world does?
Hacksaw summed it up pretty well with the very first reply: "No fat chicks."
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
Personally I respond better on a gut level to women who are wearing no makeup or maybe lip gloss. I'm very personality driven. I used to think it was kind of bizarre, I mean aren't guys supposed to respond to looks? WHAT KIND OF MAN AM I? But I've gotten over it.
Your head scan shows a depressed level of va-va-voom.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
"]Yes, but not to the same extent that moms are completely obsessed with trying to make their daughters the spotlight of high-school proms or whatever.
Uh, yes we do. For every mom obsessed with making her daughter into the next prom queen, there's a dad obsessed with making his son into the next quarterback.
I disagree. While it's true that some dads can really push their kids towards being good in competitive sports, I don't think it's to the same extent.
I do. But then, I doubt you've had the level of exposure I've had with this kind of thing (not to mention it's not generally popularized or particularly looked down upon), so I don't fault you for thinking the way you do.
Think about how this plays in popular culture. Think about in how many movies there are scenes where the female antagonist makes a grand appearance, all eyes turned on her, she has the spotlight, she's smiling, etc. Can you imagine a guy in such a spotlight?
Yes, yes I can. Grandiose appearances are not limited to female antagonists, you know.
But they are far, far more common among female antagonists. The kind of scene I have described is extremely common in pop culture. With male antagonists, not so.
I mean, maybe they make grandiose entrances with guns blazing or something, but that's hardly has anything to do with the concept of beauty.
I don't recall you saying anything about beauty in your original statement, just mentions of grand, flashy appearances with all eyes being on the person entering the scene, or whatever.
Hacksaw, you missed the point by a day and a mile. Sports stars are worshipped for their athletic ability, NOT their physical apearance. Whatever the reasons for forcing a child into sports or how often it happensz, they are NOT done to improve their physical apearance.
Really? Are you sure you don't want to think about that a bit before making that assertion? Because it seems to me sports stars are worshiped every bit as much as they are for their athletic prowess as they are for their physical form. But then, you've already displayed that you have a very narrow definition of "media," so I can see why you wouldn't be aware of this.
Some of you guys are being ridiculous. "I don't like girls who look like they applied their makeup with a shotgun," and "I like girls who are naturally pretty." Are you guys serious? First of all, I'm pretty sure that everyone likes it when a girl knows how to apply makeup correctly, because quite frankly it makes them look better.
When I made the shotgun analogy I was referring to the amount of make-up, not how well the make-up is done. Yeah, everyone likes it when a girl knows how to apply make-up, but not everyone likes it when they put on tons of make-up, no matter how well they apply it.
Now stop. Do guys put on makeup? Um, no. By that cultural standard alone women are forced to care more about their appearance. Now how many girls go on diets when they're barely overweight (if they're overweight at all) compared to guys who go on diets?
Yeah some guys do put on make up, but in general we don't have to, for a variety of reasons. Due to the way women perceive and judge guys, guys do not have to worry as much about outside appearance. We have to worry about certain things, like being clean, not having body odor, not dressing like a complete slob, etc, but beyond that, the rest matters not as much as it does for women.
I honestly am having a hard time believing that some of you are saying that guys have it as bad as girls do when it comes to beauty and appearance. Do you guys watch the same TV, see the same movies, or read the same magazines that the rest of the world does?
If they really know how to apply it, you won't know if there's tonnes or not. My sister practically wears another face, but is always getting compliments from men about how 'natural' she looks. If you notice it, it's done badly.
If they really know how to apply it, you won't know if there's tonnes or not. My sister practically wears another face, but is always getting compliments from men about how 'natural' she looks. If you notice it, it's done badly.
Maybe they're just passive-aggressively insulting her. Remember Doc's greatest P-A insult? "That make-up makes you look good." :P
Or something to that effect. I don't remember the specifics.
I disagree. While it's true that some dads can really push their kids towards being good in competitive sports, I don't think it's to the same extent.
I do. But then, I doubt you've had the level of exposure I've had with this kind of thing (not to mention it's not generally popularized or particularly looked down upon), so I don't fault you for thinking the way you do.
But they are far, far more common among female antagonists. The kind of scene I have described is extremely common in pop culture. With male antagonists, not so.
I mean, maybe they make grandiose entrances with guns blazing or something, but that's hardly has anything to do with the concept of beauty.
I don't recall you saying anything about beauty in your original statement, just mentions of grand, flashy appearances with all eyes being on the person entering the scene, or whatever.
I assumed the original theme of the thread would supply the context.
Hacksaw, you missed the point by a day and a mile. Sports stars are worshipped for their athletic ability, NOT their physical apearance. Whatever the reasons for forcing a child into sports or how often it happensz, they are NOT done to improve their physical apearance.
Really? Are you sure you don't want to think about that a bit before making that assertion? Because it seems to me sports stars are worshiped every bit as much as they are for their athletic prowess as they are for their physical form. But then, you've already displayed that you have a very narrow definition of "media," so I can see why you wouldn't be aware of this.
I agree with Silver. Sport stars are sport stars first, and idols for good-looks second. No male sport star is revered more than another because they are better-looking. They are revered for being better at what they do though. I mean really, is your dad going to care more about the fact that you look like Hercules, or that you're fucking good at the sport you play?
You can be the ugliest mofo on the planet, but if you're good at the sport you play, that makes you a good sport star. Looks are by no means as important as athletic ability, for guys.
Can you give an example where looks are as important as athletic ability for male sports stars?
If they really know how to apply it, you won't know if there's tonnes or not. My sister practically wears another face, but is always getting compliments from men about how 'natural' she looks. If you notice it, it's done badly.
It's partially true, but mostly depends on how well the guys in question can pay attention to detail. Most guys are horrible at that, so I can see what you mean by "it you notice it, it's done badly."
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
If they really know how to apply it, you won't know if there's tonnes or not. My sister practically wears another face, but is always getting compliments from men about how 'natural' she looks. If you notice it, it's done badly.
It's partially true, but mostly depends on how well the guys in question can pay attention to detail. Most guys are horrible at that, so I can see what you mean by "it you notice it, it's done badly."
I'll agree with that. It's definitely still evident to those who know what to look for. But I think a lot of the "don't like women wearing lots of makeup" thing is actually more of a "don't like women wearing makeup I can notice" thing.
To be fair, women are generally displayed as objects while men are generally displayed as active entities. They're two different reasons for coming to the same conclusion of "You have to be lucky or work your ass off for the accepted look."
An hour in the gym to work off those thighs is only so different from an hour in the gym to beef up those pecs.
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That may be, Tynic, but some of us honestly just don't like the idea of being deceived or to have to get a woman to scrub her face before sloppy makeouts.
I like the taste of -lips-, dammit, not crap made from fish scales designed to note that a woman is an Egyptian prostitute.
I feel I have been desensitized to beautiful blonds and what they stand for.
I only get a specific "Oh god she is beautiful" response from a very narrow selection of looks, which sucks because I don't want to be picky like that. Dark Hair, nice eyes, Intelligence with a touch of Rebellion (or more than a touch), you know the type.
I see most women outside this very narrow range (or at least very beautiful women) as dolls, made up to look pretty but have the air of shallow rejection about them (towards me, that is). I don't know why this is, but it is, and whenever one of my friends tells me to check out this or that chick, I'm always thinking "why bother?".
Of course this is probably part personal emotional issue, but I think a large part of the stigma comes from the way these types of women, blonds etc, are shown to us. Lifeless "beauty" striking a pose with empty eyes and a fake smile. I think I have tricked myself into thinking that women outside of these stereotypes are in fact "more real", or worth taking the time to get to know better.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
I agree with Silver. Sport stars are sport stars first, and idols for good-looks second. No male sport star is revered more than another because they are better-looking. They are revered for being better at what they do though. I mean really, is your dad going to care more about the fact that you look like Hercules, or that you're fucking good at the sport you play?
You can be the ugliest mofo on the planet, but if you're good at the sport you play, that makes you a good sport star. Looks are by no means as important as athletic ability, for guys.
I think you're missing what I'm trying to say: dads will push their sons to be super athletes to the same degree moms will push their daughters to be super models, or whatever. I'm not trying to make this into a competition of aesthetics worship; girls win on that one. I'm merely making a comparison between competitive extremes.
David Beckham is an exception. The reason he's an exception is that unlike most sports stars, he chooses to project a metrosexual image that is quite seperate from his athletic career. In fact, I would say that his case is unique.
What makes Beckham different is not his good-looks. If he was a bad player on some lower-level league, most people wouldn't even have heard of him. Besides, for every good-looking soccer player, there are a hundred average or bad-looking ones.
I agree with Silver. Sport stars are sport stars first, and idols for good-looks second. No male sport star is revered more than another because they are better-looking. They are revered for being better at what they do though. I mean really, is your dad going to care more about the fact that you look like Hercules, or that you're fucking good at the sport you play?
You can be the ugliest mofo on the planet, but if you're good at the sport you play, that makes you a good sport star. Looks are by no means as important as athletic ability, for guys.
I think you're missing what I'm trying to say: dads will push their sons to be super athletes to the same degree moms will push their daughters to be super models, or whatever. I'm not trying to make this into a competition of aesthetics worship; girls win on that one. I'm merely making a comparison between competitive extremes.
Yeah, and what we're saying is that the dad, when he's pushing his son to be a sports star, isn't doing it so that his son turns out to be good-looking. Or at least, that's not the primary reason.
Maybe we're just talking about two different things.
Why are there no large outcries against pimping out big eyes, high cheek bones, and delicate, intricate features?
What do you mean? Could you expand on it it a little?
The arguments tend to focus on hips and skin... but as hard as the first is to change, and as superficial as the latter is... facial structure is a pretty hard thing to alter without plastic surgery.
You can have a perfect body, but your face is still going to have the same basic structure.
The only way to change it is surgery. Heck, once in awhile someone mentions how people in Asian cultures get the fat removed from their eyelids so they lose the squint look. I've heard one or two sighs about Armenian noses, as well.
In general though, I don't really hear much complaining about structure. People go on and on about the Barbie look... but the face is half the look...
It just strikes me as odd that it doesn't get nearly as much media attention.
Do people just focus on T&A so much that they don't actually -care- about faces right now?
Or is it because you can't sell products for cheek bone sharpening?
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not even pedophiles? :P
I know what he intended to say. That isn't what he said though.
now. hows about going and aquanting yourself with how the various social and personal issues related to distorted sense of beauty actually manafest themselfs in people.
my point is not that he hates women, but that he is the kind of person who would say something stupid, and cause people shitloads of stress.
The problem is not that our actual standards of beauty are all that out of wack, but how those views are exposued and percived by a rather large segment of the population.
You can't really blame them for being attracted to kids, though you certainly can blame them for acting on that.
on average, but as indivuals there are plenty of totally fucked up males running about, and as I alluded to earlier it is less socially acceptable and there is less of a support network(for both indivuals and them as a group).
Maybe we do have insecure dads turning their children into anorexics, but I sure has hell havent heard of it.
EDIT: I can agree with that.
The media's ideal male is androgynous. (On the normal end we have Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt. On the extreem, Leonardo Dicaprio and Orlando Bloom.)
But I'm open minded. Why don't you look at the men of Hollywood or fashon and explain to me how that makes fathers force their sons into football.
This will vary based on your location. Ask Dyna about Texas and their highschool football fixation. It's pretty extreme, and this strain, while probably most dominant in Texas, is definitely a big thing throughout the south and midwest.
Your definition of "media" is pretty narrow. What about sports stars? What about goddamn wrestling & all of that shit?
True. That beach scene in Casino Royale when he's getting out of the water (half-naked) and sees the chick riding the horse, the first thought that came to my mind unbidden was "man, I should start working out again." It made me feel extremely self-conscious and lacking, even though it was only for a fleeting moment.
True. I think it's because of the way sexes regard each other.
Men on average are far more easily affected by outside appearance than women are. I can't speak for everyone here, but I think physical appearance has a far more important role in the first-minute attraction for men than it does for women. How many women think, when they see an attractive guy, "wow, I wanna fuck him"? True, it happens sometimes, but not as much as it happens for men when they see a beautiful woman.
And this results in women putting more emphasis on their outside looks than men.
Yes, but not to the same extent that moms are completely obsessed with trying to make their daughters the spotlight of high-school proms or whatever.
Think about how this plays in popular culture. Think about in how many movies there are scenes where the female antagonist makes a grand appearance, all eyes turned on her, she has the spotlight, she's smiling, etc. Can you imagine a guy in such a spotlight?
Second, we have professional athletes glorified by mainstream popular culture all the time. They are put up as examples of what "real" mean "should" look like.
Where did I say Hollywood is driving insecure fathers to push their sons into football? If you're going to strawman my argument, at least have the decency to make more than a half-assed attempt at it.
And football is just an example; it's not the only sport boys are being pushed to their physical limits by. Baseball, soccer, wrestling, swimming, and track come to mind, just to name a few.
Uh, yes we do. For every mom obsessed with making her daughter into the next prom queen, there's a dad obsessed with making his son into the next quarterback.
Yes, yes I can. Grandiose appearances are not limited to female antagonists, you know.
Generally speaking I prefer people without makeup at all. Subtle things don't really bother me much, I guess, but heavy makeup creeps me out (with exceptions made for certain kinds of eye makeup on certain people).
I realize this is straying a bit off topic but what? People joke about Leonardo DiCaprio being somewhat of a pretty boy but I'd hardly call him androgynous, much less to an extreme. Honestly, a few of the people you named could easily be called stereotypically masculine.
See, this is a much more complex issue than most people like to consider.
Thinness? Done properly, yeah, it -is- better.
We live past 30 now. If you're a dozen pounds over your ideal weight, you're likely to have a reduced lifespan, be unable to participate in as much of life, cost more, etc etc.
Body shape and type has a huge effect on your potential. Playing sports with friends. Endurance for staying awake and chatting or walking somewhere to meet someone or do something. Playing with your kids. Not to mention the objects you can use/wear/fit through.
If you're overweight, you've got a whole collection of limitations and possible limitations.
And that's not even getting in to the mental results of it. Overweight people often end up with social issues due to their childhoods. Not necessarily because they were attacked over it, but because they were less physically able to participate with the thinner kids. Children who are running free don't want to be held up by a Chubby Buddy.
All of that contributes to the way we react to people of less agile proportions.
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Now, if you want to talk changes in the notions of beauty...
Being in to larger forms? Back when dying of starvation wasn't so uncommon.
Being in to things like pale skin, long fingernails, sickly, frail bodied, and fucked up feet? Back when it was used to prove that someone didn't work on a farm.
Boyish forms?
Hell, to be honest, I'm guessing it has to do with the supposed tendency for homosexual men to get involved in fashion design. Romans all over again.
I disagree. While it's true that some dads can really push their kids towards being good in competitive sports, I don't think it's to the same extent.
But they are far, far more common among female antagonists. The kind of scene I have described is extremely common in pop culture. With male antagonists, not so.
I mean, maybe they make grandiose entrances with guns blazing or something, but that's hardly has anything to do with the concept of beauty.
Ok, who would you define as androgynous and who would you define as masculine and which end of the spectrum would you say is dominant (in Hollywood) in this day and age?
Well, they are worshipped for their physical appearance, just not to the same extent they are worshipped for their athletic ability. Far from it, actually.
A sports star is a sports star first and an idol for good-looks second. Unless we're talking about the male version of someone like Anna Kournikova, that is.
When the dad is pushing the kid to become a sports player, he isn't thinking about how working out makes the kid look better. He's thinking about how working out makes him better at that particular sport, be it faster, more accurate, stronger, whatever. Whereas the mom, when she wants her daughter to be the spotlight of the night, has good-looks in mind.
That is the difference here, the one Hacksaw seems to have missed.
That's an interesting idea.
Personally I respond better on a gut level to women who are wearing no makeup or maybe lip gloss. I'm very personality driven. I used to think it was kind of bizarre, I mean aren't guys supposed to respond to looks? WHAT KIND OF MAN AM I? But I've gotten over it.
Now stop. Do guys put on makeup? Um, no. By that cultural standard alone women are forced to care more about their appearance. Now how many girls go on diets when they're barely overweight (if they're overweight at all) compared to guys who go on diets?
I honestly am having a hard time believing that some of you are saying that guys have it as bad as girls do when it comes to beauty and appearance. Do you guys watch the same TV, see the same movies, or read the same magazines that the rest of the world does?
Hacksaw summed it up pretty well with the very first reply: "No fat chicks."
Your head scan shows a depressed level of va-va-voom.
I don't recall you saying anything about beauty in your original statement, just mentions of grand, flashy appearances with all eyes being on the person entering the scene, or whatever.
Really? Are you sure you don't want to think about that a bit before making that assertion? Because it seems to me sports stars are worshiped every bit as much as they are for their athletic prowess as they are for their physical form. But then, you've already displayed that you have a very narrow definition of "media," so I can see why you wouldn't be aware of this.
When I made the shotgun analogy I was referring to the amount of make-up, not how well the make-up is done. Yeah, everyone likes it when a girl knows how to apply make-up, but not everyone likes it when they put on tons of make-up, no matter how well they apply it.
Yeah some guys do put on make up, but in general we don't have to, for a variety of reasons. Due to the way women perceive and judge guys, guys do not have to worry as much about outside appearance. We have to worry about certain things, like being clean, not having body odor, not dressing like a complete slob, etc, but beyond that, the rest matters not as much as it does for women.
Agreed. Guys have it much, much easier.
Or something to that effect. I don't remember the specifics.
Fair enough.
I assumed the original theme of the thread would supply the context.
I agree with Silver. Sport stars are sport stars first, and idols for good-looks second. No male sport star is revered more than another because they are better-looking. They are revered for being better at what they do though. I mean really, is your dad going to care more about the fact that you look like Hercules, or that you're fucking good at the sport you play?
You can be the ugliest mofo on the planet, but if you're good at the sport you play, that makes you a good sport star. Looks are by no means as important as athletic ability, for guys.
Can you give an example where looks are as important as athletic ability for male sports stars?
It's partially true, but mostly depends on how well the guys in question can pay attention to detail. Most guys are horrible at that, so I can see what you mean by "it you notice it, it's done badly."
An hour in the gym to work off those thighs is only so different from an hour in the gym to beef up those pecs.
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That may be, Tynic, but some of us honestly just don't like the idea of being deceived or to have to get a woman to scrub her face before sloppy makeouts.
I like the taste of -lips-, dammit, not crap made from fish scales designed to note that a woman is an Egyptian prostitute.
I only get a specific "Oh god she is beautiful" response from a very narrow selection of looks, which sucks because I don't want to be picky like that. Dark Hair, nice eyes, Intelligence with a touch of Rebellion (or more than a touch), you know the type.
I see most women outside this very narrow range (or at least very beautiful women) as dolls, made up to look pretty but have the air of shallow rejection about them (towards me, that is). I don't know why this is, but it is, and whenever one of my friends tells me to check out this or that chick, I'm always thinking "why bother?".
Of course this is probably part personal emotional issue, but I think a large part of the stigma comes from the way these types of women, blonds etc, are shown to us. Lifeless "beauty" striking a pose with empty eyes and a fake smile. I think I have tricked myself into thinking that women outside of these stereotypes are in fact "more real", or worth taking the time to get to know better.
Underwear modeling. :P
What makes Beckham different is not his good-looks. If he was a bad player on some lower-level league, most people wouldn't even have heard of him. Besides, for every good-looking soccer player, there are a hundred average or bad-looking ones.
Yeah, and what we're saying is that the dad, when he's pushing his son to be a sports star, isn't doing it so that his son turns out to be good-looking. Or at least, that's not the primary reason.
Maybe we're just talking about two different things.
What about facial structure?
Why are there no large outcries against pimping out big eyes, high cheek bones, and delicate, intricate features?
hitler incenjucar.
hitler
What do you mean? Could you expand on it it a little?
The arguments tend to focus on hips and skin... but as hard as the first is to change, and as superficial as the latter is... facial structure is a pretty hard thing to alter without plastic surgery.
You can have a perfect body, but your face is still going to have the same basic structure.
The only way to change it is surgery. Heck, once in awhile someone mentions how people in Asian cultures get the fat removed from their eyelids so they lose the squint look. I've heard one or two sighs about Armenian noses, as well.
In general though, I don't really hear much complaining about structure. People go on and on about the Barbie look... but the face is half the look...
It just strikes me as odd that it doesn't get nearly as much media attention.
Do people just focus on T&A so much that they don't actually -care- about faces right now?
Or is it because you can't sell products for cheek bone sharpening?