augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
I also think that people blow the problems with the regular leveling system way out of proportion. Just make sure you have a way of killing things well and that it's continuously being improved. Except archery because that's pretty much broken in the vanilla.
august on
0
ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
I also think that people blow the problems with the regular leveling system way out of proportion. Just make sure you have a way of killing things well and that it's continuously being improved. Except archery because that's pretty much broken in the vanilla.
I never had an issue with archery, but maybe I just got lucky with my numbers. Having stealth is a big help, since you get the big bonus damage on archery hits when stealthed. But really, I almost never had monsters even make it to me. They would either die in one hit from a stealth hit, or they would be paralyzed from the first hit, and die on the second or third. -shrug-
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
FCOM is well worth it, and hard as hell. It seems to slow the leveling curve down, and in general makes combat more lethal. The leveling system still works the same basic way (use a skill, level a skill), but the progression is more even and I think your class specialty (stealth, combat, magic) makes a significant difference in how quickly a skill levels.
I'm playing a spellsword-type character right now. I actually had to descrease the difficulty because I was getting my ass handed to me by spellcasters (of course, I am also playing a high elf with Sign of the Apprentice, so I take an extra 125% from most magical attacks), but it's been a lot of fun. Now that I have a few levels and some resistance gear under my belt I've bumped it back up to normal difficulty. Still hard as hell, but well worth it I think.
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
I definitely didn't spend 10 hours getting to level 2, but I died a lot.
Now that I think about it, I'll have to explore changing the default leveling curve. This one's a tad slow for my taste. How easy is that after installation? Or do I need to do an entirely new install of OOO?
I definitely didn't spend 10 hours getting to level 2, but I died a lot.
Now that I think about it, I'll have to explore changing the default leveling curve. This one's a tad slow for my taste. How easy is that after installation? Or do I need to do an entirely new install of OOO?
I think re-ran the installer, yeah. But I did fcom so I'm not sure, and it's been a while.
I also think that people blow the problems with the regular leveling system way out of proportion. Just make sure you have a way of killing things well and that it's continuously being improved. Except archery because that's pretty much broken in the vanilla.
What was wrong with archery?
I found it to be the most fun combat skill and the one I found easiest to kill stuff with. Just get your sneak attack up and get a good bow/arrows and it's awesome, hell in vanilla you can run backwards at high enough speeds putting arrows in enemies that they will never have a chance to hit you or even try to hit you (I got myself a mod that reduced backwards run speed since it became silly).
There are only 2 parts of Oblivion I miss when I play Morrowind, swordfighting and archery, everything else Morrowind does better in my opinion.
NATIK on
0
augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
I don't have any real personal experience with archery, it's just one of those things I've had people complain about being totally broken when I try to defend the leveling system in Oblivion as not being totally horrible.
I could see it being argued as broken in the 'overpowered' sense due to backwards run speed silliness, but other than that I really can't see where that argument is coming from.
It's awesome fun sniping enemies off at a distance with a well placed sneak attack arrow to the face.
My problems with archery in vanilla oblvion:
- Not enough good bows; the best I could find was a daedric bow with fire +damage... It was weak compared to all the awesome swords in the game.
- Once you hit the enemy, they telepathically know exactly where you are (simple mods fix that, but then it's too op).
- No location based damage. Hitting a foot does the same to the enemy as a headshot.
All of those are true I guess, I would say though that the sheer fun aspect of archery makes up for having to shoot a few extra times :P.
About the telepathically knowing stuff, it's linked to the same issue as the psychic guards, but it's possible to do stealth attacks and not be found even unmodded, it's just insanely hard to line it up since you have to be far far far away from anyone else AND have a clear line of sight to your target so you can actually hit them.
I managed to kill a few NPCs with stealth kills without being spotted but it took ages setting it up and waiting for everyone to be in the right positions so it wasn't really worth it.
Deadly reflexes gave you the ability to stealth kill humanoids by hitting vital organs. First five minutes in a dungeon outside Anvil and I make a female orc mage drown in her blood. It was awesome.
I was gonna reinstall this on the weekend, but took a look at the mod install instructions, gave up, and went to play Fall from Heaven.
I'll be building up my desire to overcome the mod installs during this week I think. Quick, regale me with fantastic stories.
Fantastic stories to entice you into modding, you say? I reinstalled a couple of weeks ago, and decided to go with OOO and MMM. Was a complete nightmare to get running, and I am not digging it at all. Feels like vanilla with shinier paint in randomly colored splotches. There are things I like about this setup, but overall it was probably not worth the effort, and I'm considering abandoning this install completely and going back to a core of TIE (which I love), Supreme Magicka, Deadly Reflex, Racial Balancing Project, and Realistic Levelling.
In my experience so far, I'd say that the highest quality mods that introduce the most drastic changes to the feel of my game tend to be pretty lightweight and modular, and the largest non-aesthetic mod that's actually worth the trouble is probably the Racial Balancing Project. Even then, it's largely aesthetic and the light version of it is all you'll ever need unless you really like your extra hair, eyes and unnecessary (often fanwanky) races. Large overhauls are a clusterfuck, and shit like COBL is an even bigger clusterfuck. When using any outside mods, the payoff for the hours upon hours it can take to sort out all the compatibility has yet to strike me as more than a notch or two above moderately noticeable for any reasons beyond new and exciting bugs.
Of course, I probably don't accurately represent the bulk of the Elder Scrolls community due to my bitter, vitriolic hatred of the vanilla game's design direction, as well as the kind of person that doesn't understand said bitter, vitriolic hatred.
I was gonna reinstall this on the weekend, but took a look at the mod install instructions, gave up, and went to play Fall from Heaven.
I'll be building up my desire to overcome the mod installs during this week I think. Quick, regale me with fantastic stories.
Fantastic stories to entice you into modding, you say? I reinstalled a couple of weeks ago, and decided to go with OOO and MMM. Was a complete nightmare to get running, and I am not digging it at all. Feels like vanilla with shinier paint in randomly colored splotches. There are things I like about this setup, but overall it was probably not worth the effort, and I'm considering abandoning this install completely and going back to a core of TIE (which I love), Supreme Magicka, Deadly Reflex, Racial Balancing Project, and Realistic Levelling.
In my experience so far, I'd say that the highest quality mods that introduce the most drastic changes to the feel of my game tend to be pretty lightweight and modular, and the largest non-aesthetic mod that's actually worth the trouble is probably the Racial Balancing Project. Even then, it's largely aesthetic and the light version of it is all you'll ever need unless you really like your extra hair, eyes and unnecessary (often fanwanky) races. Large overhauls are a clusterfuck, and shit like COBL is an even bigger clusterfuck. When using any outside mods, the payoff for the hours upon hours it can take to sort out all the compatibility has yet to strike me as more than a notch or two above moderately noticeable for any reasons beyond new and exciting bugs.
Of course, I probably don't accurately represent the bulk of the Elder Scrolls community due to my bitter, vitriolic hatred of the vanilla game's design direction, as well as the kind of person that doesn't understand said bitter, vitriolic hatred.
I had a similar experience with OOO, MM and all the others, or whatever the heavyweight mods were called. I liked seeing the new monsters and such, because christ knows Oblivion needs a lot more variety in monsters, dungeon/inner environments and music, but the insane install requirements, coupled with the fact it severely complicated the process of adding other mods, left me expecting much greater things. Like you say, it felt more-or-less like Oblivion, with pretty much the same faults, only now you could wander into an area and get murdered by a couple of arrows with no warning. If you're going to make the game "hardcore" or whatever, in the style of Fallout or Baldur's Gate or just the half-and-half method of Fallout, then you really need to build the game from the ground up with this in mind.
Yeah, "vanilla" FCOM is really nothing more than one gigantic "stuff" pack for Oblivion - the real magic is in all the dedicated niche-filling mods like Deadly Reflex and Mighty/Midas Magic and Beautiful People and Thieves Arsenal and Thievery in the Imperial City and Vaults of Cyrodil and Companion-Share-Recruit and the zombie mod. To be fair, some of this stuff IS quite nice and interesting - snagging a full suit of
the redone Imperial Dragon Armor
in that fort SE of the IC just near that bridge was a damn good payoff. And for all of the horribleness of the installation instructions FCOM itself isn't that hard - it's more of that it's delicate, and the instructions should have stated big and boldly to make a backup of your data folder before you start up so you can flush and try again if needed and to extract the FCOM stuff to a dedicated folder first before dropping it in /data.
Dang. Now I'm reminded that I haven't gotten anywhere substantial in Kvatch Rebuilt and the FCOM quests. There goes my Aftershock time...D:
Sorenson on
0
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
I've really enjoyed FCOM. As Sorenson said, it's basically Oblivion + More Stuff (more items, more monsters, slower leveling, tougher combat). Installation is delicate, but doable. It's been well worth it for me because it's changed the way the game is played. I can't charge forward and expect to routinely slaughter every monster I see. I've got to play it by ear.
I spent several hours systematically wiping out a castle filled with brutish Nord raiders, watching and waiting to pick someone off as he wandered away from the rest of the group, playing cat-and-mouse combat with three guys as I used terrain and traps to hinder or even kill them, and sometimes even leaving for a while to to stock up on supplies that would help me conquer the boss at the end of the dungeon.
It's not for everyone. I won't lie to you: I died a lot, and sometimes got really frustrated. But ultimately it was a really rewarding play experience, and because of the way loot is generated, netted some gear way above my level. Very cool.
And now that I've gotten all that working, I'm a lot less intimidated by the other mods. Some of the ones mentioned here sound really interesting.
augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
I thought that the majority of the content I got out of fcom was very well done, and I don't really remember much conflicts with the other stuff I had running, if any. The OOO quests are especially well written. The only thing is that the leveling is kind of a good idea in theory, but I'm (personally) not so sure about the implementation. If something is kicking your ass, you need to be cool with running away and dealing with it several levels latter. Not do what I do; throw yourself at it over and over and over for an hour until you cheese your way through it.
EIDT: And for what it's worth I think that most of the people who worked on the different fcom mods genuinely love the game and Elder Scrolls in general. Just kinda the impression I get. I mean they aren't Fallout fans or anything.
Seriously, guys, i just want to make a mage with all the mage skills as majors. Is there anything simpler than FCOM that might help?
Seven skills for your class. Magic schools are Alteration, Conjuration, Destruction, Illusion, Mysticism, Restoration. That's six skills, throw in Alchemy and bam you've got your mage.
What else are you trying to do with it that doesn't work in the unmodded game? Just a different leveling system?
Seriously, guys, i just want to make a mage with all the mage skills as majors. Is there anything simpler than FCOM that might help?
AF Level Mod's always worked swell for me - it calculates and retroactively balances everything on the fly so all you've got to think about is actually raising your skills, plus it's got different levelling schemes (one level per X attribute/major skill increases) to match your grounded/powergamer/moderate mindset. It also takes into account modified birthsigns and race stats and the like, so combined with Alternative Start you can get a dude going lickity-split.
Seriously, guys, i just want to make a mage with all the mage skills as majors. Is there anything simpler than FCOM that might help?
AF Level Mod's always worked swell for me - it calculates and retroactively balances everything on the fly so all you've got to think about is actually raising your skills, plus it's got different levelling schemes (one level per X attribute/major skill increases) to match your grounded/powergamer/moderate mindset. It also takes into account modified birthsigns and race stats and the like, so combined with Alternative Start you can get a dude going lickity-split.
That sounds awesome, thanks...
and to the other guys:
I didn't mean that I wanted ALL majors to be magic, but in the vanilla game people always tell you not to put your most used skills as majors because then you'll get level ups too fast and get weak (multipliers not big enough because of the fewer total skill ups) and then the leveled monsters will kill you FAST.
So, I couldn't actually select, say, Destruction, Conjuration and Restoration as majors, because then I'd be fucked.
Seriously, guys, i just want to make a mage with all the mage skills as majors. Is there anything simpler than FCOM that might help?
AF Level Mod's always worked swell for me - it calculates and retroactively balances everything on the fly so all you've got to think about is actually raising your skills, plus it's got different levelling schemes (one level per X attribute/major skill increases) to match your grounded/powergamer/moderate mindset. It also takes into account modified birthsigns and race stats and the like, so combined with Alternative Start you can get a dude going lickity-split.
That sounds awesome, thanks...
and to the other guys:
I didn't mean that I wanted ALL majors to be magic, but in the vanilla game people always tell you not to put your most used skills as majors because then you'll get level ups too fast and get weak (multipliers not big enough because of the fewer total skill ups) and then the leveled monsters will kill you FAST.
So, I couldn't actually select, say, Destruction, Conjuration and Restoration as majors, because then I'd be fucked.
Realistic Leveling also does the retroactive calculations (even on installing it for the first time and using an existing save). It also calculates stat progression based on your preferred skills and specializations, so it removes the +5 stat hunts and single skill grinding that makes vanilla leveling horrible. It can also completely remove the level screen and just have everything run fluidly in the background, which is a much different experience than the vanilla game. For Elder Scrolls style leveling that works, I prefer SPAM, which disassociates stat and skill progression.
If you're doing a mage (or any other character, really), I'd also recommend either LAME or Supreme Magicka. Vanilla magic is very bland and kind of weak. This makes just about every magic school effective enough to warrant the skill investment.
And if you're looking for a simple game rebalance, I will shill for TIEtill the ends of time. The installation consists of checking on a single esp. It's also a static world mod, so the worrying about enemies scaling up if you're leveling the wrong skills magically disappears. I believe there's a Shivering Isles addon still in the works. Race Balancing Project light is my other recommendation. Throwing all of the above together puts the game into a state that almost approaches good.
All this talk about fcom is making me reinstall. Not sure what kind of character I should make since I've already played a good amount of Oblivion as every non-hybrid role (Sneaky bow thief, heavy plate warrior, standard mage).
Man, I've been playing vanilla Morrowind as a thief type character and it's a fucking blast. I've never played as one before so all the Thieves Guild quests are new to me and lots of fun. I also use marksman to pick off far away enemies, and hand to hand for close combat. It's hilarious to me when I knock people down and beat them to death with my fists, hahaha.
Darmak on
0
augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
After Theive's Guild the Dunmer assassin's guild quests are pretty dope.
Last time I was pretty burnt out on Oblivion (did fighter/mage/thief/main quest lines already), couldn't even manage to finish the Shivering Isles (still haven't) main quest, after getting to the main city. Everything took ages to kill, kept evading, with massive ammounts of HP.
Is there any package that would freshen up the gameplay, possibly the story as well but I'm mostly interested in making combat and levelling different (ie. better).
Posts
I never had an issue with archery, but maybe I just got lucky with my numbers. Having stealth is a big help, since you get the big bonus damage on archery hits when stealthed. But really, I almost never had monsters even make it to me. They would either die in one hit from a stealth hit, or they would be paralyzed from the first hit, and die on the second or third. -shrug-
I'm playing a spellsword-type character right now. I actually had to descrease the difficulty because I was getting my ass handed to me by spellcasters (of course, I am also playing a high elf with Sign of the Apprentice, so I take an extra 125% from most magical attacks), but it's been a lot of fun. Now that I have a few levels and some resistance gear under my belt I've bumped it back up to normal difficulty. Still hard as hell, but well worth it I think.
PSN: Threeve703
I just wanna make a mage with the magic skills as majors.
Now that I think about it, I'll have to explore changing the default leveling curve. This one's a tad slow for my taste. How easy is that after installation? Or do I need to do an entirely new install of OOO?
PSN: Threeve703
I'll be building up my desire to overcome the mod installs during this week I think. Quick, regale me with fantastic stories.
I think re-ran the installer, yeah. But I did fcom so I'm not sure, and it's been a while.
What was wrong with archery?
I found it to be the most fun combat skill and the one I found easiest to kill stuff with. Just get your sneak attack up and get a good bow/arrows and it's awesome, hell in vanilla you can run backwards at high enough speeds putting arrows in enemies that they will never have a chance to hit you or even try to hit you (I got myself a mod that reduced backwards run speed since it became silly).
There are only 2 parts of Oblivion I miss when I play Morrowind, swordfighting and archery, everything else Morrowind does better in my opinion.
It's awesome fun sniping enemies off at a distance with a well placed sneak attack arrow to the face.
- Not enough good bows; the best I could find was a daedric bow with fire +damage... It was weak compared to all the awesome swords in the game.
- Once you hit the enemy, they telepathically know exactly where you are (simple mods fix that, but then it's too op).
- No location based damage. Hitting a foot does the same to the enemy as a headshot.
About the telepathically knowing stuff, it's linked to the same issue as the psychic guards, but it's possible to do stealth attacks and not be found even unmodded, it's just insanely hard to line it up since you have to be far far far away from anyone else AND have a clear line of sight to your target so you can actually hit them.
I managed to kill a few NPCs with stealth kills without being spotted but it took ages setting it up and waiting for everyone to be in the right positions so it wasn't really worth it.
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
In my experience so far, I'd say that the highest quality mods that introduce the most drastic changes to the feel of my game tend to be pretty lightweight and modular, and the largest non-aesthetic mod that's actually worth the trouble is probably the Racial Balancing Project. Even then, it's largely aesthetic and the light version of it is all you'll ever need unless you really like your extra hair, eyes and unnecessary (often fanwanky) races. Large overhauls are a clusterfuck, and shit like COBL is an even bigger clusterfuck. When using any outside mods, the payoff for the hours upon hours it can take to sort out all the compatibility has yet to strike me as more than a notch or two above moderately noticeable for any reasons beyond new and exciting bugs.
Of course, I probably don't accurately represent the bulk of the Elder Scrolls community due to my bitter, vitriolic hatred of the vanilla game's design direction, as well as the kind of person that doesn't understand said bitter, vitriolic hatred.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
I had a similar experience with OOO, MM and all the others, or whatever the heavyweight mods were called. I liked seeing the new monsters and such, because christ knows Oblivion needs a lot more variety in monsters, dungeon/inner environments and music, but the insane install requirements, coupled with the fact it severely complicated the process of adding other mods, left me expecting much greater things. Like you say, it felt more-or-less like Oblivion, with pretty much the same faults, only now you could wander into an area and get murdered by a couple of arrows with no warning. If you're going to make the game "hardcore" or whatever, in the style of Fallout or Baldur's Gate or just the half-and-half method of Fallout, then you really need to build the game from the ground up with this in mind.
Dang. Now I'm reminded that I haven't gotten anywhere substantial in Kvatch Rebuilt and the FCOM quests. There goes my Aftershock time...D:
I spent several hours systematically wiping out a castle filled with brutish Nord raiders, watching and waiting to pick someone off as he wandered away from the rest of the group, playing cat-and-mouse combat with three guys as I used terrain and traps to hinder or even kill them, and sometimes even leaving for a while to to stock up on supplies that would help me conquer the boss at the end of the dungeon.
It's not for everyone. I won't lie to you: I died a lot, and sometimes got really frustrated. But ultimately it was a really rewarding play experience, and because of the way loot is generated, netted some gear way above my level. Very cool.
And now that I've gotten all that working, I'm a lot less intimidated by the other mods. Some of the ones mentioned here sound really interesting.
PSN: Threeve703
EIDT: And for what it's worth I think that most of the people who worked on the different fcom mods genuinely love the game and Elder Scrolls in general. Just kinda the impression I get. I mean they aren't Fallout fans or anything.
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1888
or search there for more.
Seven skills for your class. Magic schools are Alteration, Conjuration, Destruction, Illusion, Mysticism, Restoration. That's six skills, throw in Alchemy and bam you've got your mage.
What else are you trying to do with it that doesn't work in the unmodded game? Just a different leveling system?
PSN: Threeve703
That sounds awesome, thanks...
and to the other guys:
I didn't mean that I wanted ALL majors to be magic, but in the vanilla game people always tell you not to put your most used skills as majors because then you'll get level ups too fast and get weak (multipliers not big enough because of the fewer total skill ups) and then the leveled monsters will kill you FAST.
So, I couldn't actually select, say, Destruction, Conjuration and Restoration as majors, because then I'd be fucked.
If you're doing a mage (or any other character, really), I'd also recommend either LAME or Supreme Magicka. Vanilla magic is very bland and kind of weak. This makes just about every magic school effective enough to warrant the skill investment.
And if you're looking for a simple game rebalance, I will shill for TIE till the ends of time. The installation consists of checking on a single esp. It's also a static world mod, so the worrying about enemies scaling up if you're leveling the wrong skills magically disappears. I believe there's a Shivering Isles addon still in the works. Race Balancing Project light is my other recommendation. Throwing all of the above together puts the game into a state that almost approaches good.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
Yep
Is there any package that would freshen up the gameplay, possibly the story as well but I'm mostly interested in making combat and levelling different (ie. better).
Are the big DLCs worth it? Obviously I won't be buy Horse Armor, but are Knights of the Nine and The Shivering Isles worth it?