exactly. if i had to point at any factor it'd be his gear and not popping his cooldowns
at 78 you're not going to need to worry about optimal rotations, you just need to find one that's easy to remember and good enough. as you get more serious about raiding and assemble your gearset from heroics, that's when you do your research and learn about all the subtleties
ret and prot paladins are going to be doing damage to every mob in the pull, the tank is going to be doing damage to all of the mobs 100% of the time in combat and the ret paladins are going to be doing damage about 99% of the time. while you are relying on cast times to do your damage.
ret paladins start off really high in the damage department but it will even out as you level and get some gear. Hopefully the holy paladin isnt going to want spell power cloth.
It's not that I really want to be more impressive on damage meters. I mean I DO, but I'm not really into min/maxing. I may have mentioned it, but I will usually pick something I find entertaining over being more effective (like how I put slots into traveling powers in CoH when Im leveling up). But since my main function as a mage is damage, it's sort of depressing to be out DPS'd by paladins. They can out DPS and of course take tons more damage than I. I just feel a little useless, like I'm not pulling my own weight.
Of course, counterspell and slow (especially since it lands on bosses, which I was very pleased to learn) I find to be great boons but those may be overlooked
dachish on
My heart it ceases, my breath undrawn.
Eyes forever focused, on the sanguine, metal dawn.
exactly. if i had to point at any factor it'd be his gear and not popping his cooldowns
at 78 you're not going to need to worry about optimal rotations, you just need to find one that's easy to remember and good enough. as you get more serious about raiding and assemble your gearset from heroics, that's when you do your research and learn about all the subtleties
I disagree. The sooner you learn, the sooner you can practice playing optimally and not be a burden in your groups. Shit, isn't it a common complaint from WoW players that people hit 80 and then do group content without having a clue how to play their character ("lol eBay")? Maybe if they'd started learning while doing some of the Northrend dungeons, there wouldn't be such a problem.
Dachish seems like he'd just rather skip the "good enough" step and get to the optimal one, which seems like a good idea to me.
But since my main function as a mage is damage, it's sort of depressing to be out DPS'd by paladins. They can out DPS and of course take tons more damage than I. I just feel a little useless, like I'm not pulling my own weight.
It sounds like you've got a proper understanding of about everything, but keep in mind that a ret paladin's main function is damage as well. The way the game is balanced now, a ret paladin should be able to do similar damage to a mage, and depending on a variety of factors (gear, player skill, latency, each particular encounter), a ret paladin will also out-damage a mage.
And hey, someone's got to feed the holy paladin conjured bread, and it sure won't be the ret paladins!
I hit 80 today and got a few minor upgrades, but my DPS went up about 600, which is pretty awesome. I was 2nd and 3rd with my folks this time, which makes me feel much better.
dachish on
My heart it ceases, my breath undrawn.
Eyes forever focused, on the sanguine, metal dawn.
I love ice, at 69, but am hesitant to go to Arcane. I'm finding my ability to AOE-Trash mobs is amazing as Ice. Is it easy to do in Arcane as well? How does that balance on the +Crit chance to frozen mobs?
I love ice, at 69, but am hesitant to go to Arcane. I'm finding my ability to AOE-Trash mobs is amazing as Ice. Is it easy to do in Arcane as well? How does that balance on the +Crit chance to frozen mobs?
It's doable as arcane, certainly. It's nothing like frost aoe though. Frost aoe is king. If you love it, then stick with frost. Arcane is all about the single target burst damage.
Derrick on
Steam and CFN: Enexemander
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
And while levelling, Arcane really isn't that much far ahead of Frost fighting solo mobs while grinding, where Frostbite is king.
Well, except that you NEED the 2min evocation to not have to drink every other minute as Arcane, and Frost does not.
I drank much less often when I leveled as arcane, compared to frost. I tried them both out on my way to 80, after the 2-minute evo was put in.
Arcane was faster than frost by far, even after 66, when you get ice lance. You cast slow, then do either ABx2-ABarr or ABx3-ABarr, and mobs go down. It's actually fairly mana efficient, and with the constant evocating you're golden. And because you're opening with slow (for +12% damage), the mobs are snared just like if you were frost. Really you're just losing out on frostbite and ice barrier, and in exchange you're gaining arcane power, PoM, and flat-out higher individual DPS.
I would strongly recommend leveling as arcane after 64 to anyone. Granted, the original question was about AOE as arcane, and without some of the frost talents, your blizzards won't crit for double, and will do somewhat less damage. Not a ton less damage, mind you, but before 74 you won't have any points in ice shards, and you'll never have points in piercing ice. Overall, though, you're going to have cleaner runs doing slightly less AOE damage with blizzard, and considerably more single-target damage on bosses and big trash with arcane spells, in my opinion. Plus when you're questing, you'll rarely have chances to AOE kite.
Just my opinion though!
Mouschi on
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
Hey I actually got to update the OP!
3.2 Patch Notes Regarding Mages!
Arcane Blast: Mana cost reduced by 12%.
Invisibility: Can no longer be interrupted by a hostile action or damage done during the 3 second fade time, however an invisible mage can still be stunned or silenced.
Talents
Fire
Empowered Fire: In addition to its existing effects, this talent now also grants a 33/67/100% chance to regain 1% of base mana each time the Ignite talent deals damage.
Buffing frost's damage output would make it PvP-god again. So no.
Well, right, that's the concern, and I understand that. But you'd think somewhere over the course of 2 major patches they'd have figured out a way to address the PvE problem without breaking PvP. They went through the trouble to slap Replenishment into the tree and everything, but since they didn't do much else all it really does is say, "look, if your raid is that desperate for replenishment, you can just respec to bottom tier DPS and contribute something that other specs can do without gimping themselves."
Couldn't they buff the damage on the Frostbolt glyph and add some sort of Ice Lance glyph that makes it a lot better for PvE that won't break PvP? Or would PvP frost actually be able to utilize the Frostbolt glyph? I was under the impression that unglyphed frostbolt is still a major part of the spec for snaring/Frosbite purposes.
I think I have a theory about how they could buff PvE frost and not overpower them in PvP.
Nerf the damage on frostbolt by about 20% and the snare down to 30%.
Add a stacking DoT which deals 5% of frostbolt's damage + adds another 5% snare (unaffected by snare increasing talents) over 5 seconds(refreshing with application)
Meaning the more you stack it the higher the DoT/Snare gets to a cap of let's say 10 applications.
As you stack applications of frostbolt you deal greater damage.
Since in arenas you aren't really likely to be able to machinegun frostbolts, and since unless it's kept up it will fall off the target it's primarily just going to effect the boss fights.
thoughts?
Andrew Ryan on
naknaknaknaknak
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
DoTs with frost spells don't make sense, from a RPG standpoint. The answer is to lower the crit bonuses while buffing the base damage rates.
DoTs with frost spells don't make sense, from a RPG standpoint. The answer is to lower the crit bonuses while buffing the base damage rates.
This makes it even harder for mages to gear in PVE though - haste and spell power are already proportionally much better for frost mages than arcane and fire mages than crit. With that change, it'd be even worse, and mages would be unable to get frost-optimal gear.
Mouschi on
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
So the answer is that the reality of things is that frost is already where it should be but people want to be stronger anyway.
[*]Invisibility: Can no longer be interrupted by a hostile action or damage done during the 3 second fade time, however an invisible mage can still be stunned or silenced.
oh jesus finally.
its about fucking time.
Jasconius on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
It says during the 3 second fade time. I bet if you have a DoT on you and it ticks while you're invisible you're fucked.
Henroid on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
PvE mages only use Invis to drop threat, so that won't affect them.
Dhalphir on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
Looks like there was some Q&A guys.
Mage Q&A Feedback We knew that some players would approach the Q&As as a list of buffs for their class, and thus be disappointed. But that was never the intent, and we already have channels to do that. The Q&As were to address the kinds of questions we get all the time, such as "What do you guys see as the role of the mage class?" You can find a question like that about every day. I used to answer them, but then someone would ask it again the next week without looking to even see if there had been a previous answer. As such, the Q&As were designed to be more philosophical and long-term. We knew many of them wouldn't be up until after the patch notes for instance.
Given the huge numbers of questions that were asked, we knew it would be impossible to pick the set that would please everyone so we did the best we could. Just because the question wasn't of interest to you doesn't mean it wasn't of interest to someone or they wouldn't have asked it. But we would like to keep the series going long-term, so there is a chance that a question that didn't come up this time can come up again.
I'll just touch on two common themes:
We think mage PvE damage is fine. If you are routinely getting trounced by bad players in your raid, you might consider trying to figure out how some mages are getting really good numbers.
Some players have apparently misinterpreted my comments about mana. I was trying to say that the goal is that dps casters generally should not run out of mana, provided they aren't in over their heads and make reasonable use of their tools. We don't think those tools were adequate. However, we also didn't want to turn Evocate into Innervate, as is commonly asked. Instead, we went with the Ignite change (though I suspect the number will end up being something closer to 2% instead of 1% when all is said and done). We just thought it was a more interesting mechanic and felt mage-like. Since Arcane mages don't use Ignite, we dropped the Arcane Blast cost. Frost has some PvE damage problems, but Frostbolt is already a really efficient spell -- that isn't their big issue. (Source)
Developers Q&A (Source) Mages in general are not pleased with the seeming lack of control on their damage output. This is most noticeable in the case of fire mages. A complete dependence on RNG-based procs combined with a lack of worthwhile cooldowns leads to a "spray-and-pray" approach to casting. When can mages expect more control on their output? I think this phenomenon is overstated. The reason I say that is I know of mages who consistently outperform other mages with very similar gear (even within the same raid, when presumably buffs and leadership are constant). You could argue that the random numbers just always line up for them every time, but I don’t find that argument compelling.
The patch notes you have released show a combination of factors that will reduce mana availability to mages. This tells us that you feel that mages currently raiding Ulduar have a surplus of mana. Is this the case? If not, are we going to see more steps taken before 3.2 releases to provide additional mana resources? I worded that answer poorly. The point I was trying to make is that our design is on challenging encounters the risk for healers running OOM should be much worse than casters running OOM. We want mages to use gems and Evocate, but if they do so reasonably well, then they should be fine on mana until the fights go for more than say 10 minutes. However, we don’t think the mage mana regen mechanics were cutting it, which is why we implemented the new mana return on Ignite. I think the patch notes said the return was 1%, but 2% might be more appropriate. (Source)
Mages feel that Mana Gems and Healthstones should not share a cooldown as we are the only class in the game currently forced to choose on this matter (and with the apparent intent of our mana regen mechanics, it is not a choice at all.) When can we expect these to be unlinked? We will try to get them unlinked. I can’t recall if this was done for reasons of balance or kit, but it seems unnecessary. (Source)
Mage AoE is limited by the ground-area focus and significant mana cost associated with their AoE Spells. Other classes have more flexible AoE with significantly better at-will resource regeneration (i.e. Life Tap, AotV). This causes mages to be excluded from planning for AoE phases when possible and causes the need to drink constantly on trash packs. The feeling amongst some mages is that our AoE spells should be reasonably costed but with damage balanced to the point that with few targets (say, less than 3) they are impractical due to low damage, but scale better with more targets. This would be as opposed to making them overly costly mana-wise which makes them all but unusable now. Is this something that we could reasonably see happen? I really don’t see situations where mages are not taken seriously as AE classes. Yes, some classes have higher burst AE on some trash packs. Mages still do great with Blizzard, and with the Ignite change we might even see a return of Flamestrike on some pulls. (Source)
You suggest that Spell Steal could be improved with a glyph. Many mages feel that we have too many mandatory major glyphs at this point and too few useful minor glyphs. Is there any chance in this expansion of us seeing the Spell Steal as a minor glyph, or other minor glyphs in general that could provide some enhancement to the class? I was throwing that out there as a possible experiment. We intended Spell Steal to be a way to get a useful buff from an enemy. In practice it has become more of a generic dispel. Changing that could be both a buff or a nerf to mages depending on the situation. (Source)
Q7: Torment the Weak is considered so mandatory by both Frost and Fire players that virtually every serious raiding mage in those specs has 18 points in Arcane despite having to waste points in the lower tiers for talents that have absolutely no benefit (not bad talents, just not relevant in any way to Frost or Fire). Additionally, on fights where we are forced to target non-snared mobs (think Kologarns arms), mages dps suffers heavily. The last time we saw a talent this mandatory was with Evocation. If mage dps is so dependant upon this talent, shouldn't we be expecting for it to be removed entirely, mage baseline dps improved, and the lower tiers of arcane spruced up with some more inviting talents? It’s hard to persuade us that mandatory talents are a bad thing. The alternative is that talent specs aren’t compelling because you could throw darts at your trees and have a viable spec. Furthermore, once you chill out a mandatory talent, then the next most powerful one is considered mandatory. I can’t think of a single talent tree for any class without a mandatory talent. It only becomes a problem when the character is severely restricted in being able to get fun utility talents because so many talents are tied up in the mandatory ones. But even in this situation I doubt mages are alone. (Source)
Q8: You have told us that "Arcane is a little bloated." But unlike with Shaman, you've provided little explanation as to what you would like to see happen with this tree to correct some of the bloat. Can you give us examples of some of the changes we could expect to see? I am reluctant to do this because then if the changes did not materialize in the next patch, Arcane mages might be upset. In the Q&A I believe I mentioned Prot warrior and Ret paladin of models of how we would like to see all of the talent trees – very thin with an almost inability to spend all of your points in one tree. (Source)
You seem to insinuate that Mirror Image actually reduces threat when all current data shows it as nothing more than a fade. If Mirror Image actually reduced threat generated while active, it would be a vast improvement. Can we ever expect to see this functionality? Can we ever expect it to come back off the GCD? Mirror Image divides your threat among the images. I thought this was well known unless I am misunderstanding the question. (Source)
If you are going to continue to have longer fights, why do mana gems have charges? Really. You are supposed to have to manage your mana. You are not supposed to routinely run out. As an example of this if you are in a very short fight (like a hard mod with a fast burn) you should pull out all the stops. If you know the fight is going to go long, you should pace yourself. I would consider a mage who always did the same things in every given fight to not know their class mechanics as well as they could. Realistically, we have very few ten minute fights, and most are far shorter. (Source)
Playing with Fire has always been a neat flavorful talent. But with the sorts of AoE damage flying around nowadays, it is starting to feel like too much of a liability. Why are mages unique in having a talent that actively hurts you? Kit. Homogenization is something we struggle with a lot. We don’t like it when two classes have very similar talents, though this is understandably one of the first things players suggest when they find a talent wanting. (Source)
Edit - Y'know, the Torment the Weak question was kinda retarded. First of all, our clearcasting talent is along the way to it. As is Spell Impact and Focus Magic. I can see the argument being made against tier 1 specifically of the arcane line, but ultimately, it's fine.
Playing With Fire has always made me think "why the fuck would anyone take that talent" so I hope it gets changed. I mean, my latest tinkering of fire talenting does put it to use, but it'd be nice anyhow.
Lastly, Flamestrike should be an AoE dropped on where your current target stands. It doesn't make much sense to drop it at any other point in time; if you drop it and just want things running through it for the DoT and missing the instant damage, it's not worth the mana cost.
Henroid on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Um, why would you think "why would anyone take that talent" for Playing With Fire? Its a straight up 3% dps increase for 3 points.
Dhalphir on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
It's the "take 3% more damage from spells" part.
Henroid on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Which really isn't that significant when you consider that most raid damage is already either healable, or not healable. If it isnt healable, 3% more isn't going to matter. If its healable, 3% isn't going to make it unhealable.
It's nice to know that Spell steal might be re-worked. I would love for it to take the most recently applied buff, or something. I'd like to be able to rely on it.
Beck on
Lucas's Franklin Badge reflected the lightning back!
Apparently the "buffs" mages are getting are really just to counteract the replenishment nerf coming down the pipe, and if EJ is true, arcane especially is going to be even more mana starved.
As I recall, they mentioned recently that they would have to have a glyph that buffed Ice Lance's damage by about 6x in order to be worthwhile.
Right. That's what I read. So they could just make a glyph that gives it that much damage against NPCs only. I know they have a huge bug up their ass about putting something like that in the game, but it's pretty stupid, and the alternative seems to be having a completely garbage replenishment tree.
More specifically, they were saying the bonus multiplier for Ice Lance against frozen targets/FoF buff on the mage would have to be 6x instead of the current 3x (4x glyphed).
Living bomb crit nerfs in 3.2, according to the datamining from the PTR. Ignite won't proc off periodic damage crits, and hot streak will only proc off two non-periodic damage crits in a row.
Mouschi on
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
MMO Champ has some detailed info up about spell changes, documented or otherwise. We're not the only ones experiencing this thing regarding crit-based effects and non-periodic damage.
Arcane
[*]Arcane Blast now uses 7% of base mana. (Down from 8% of base mana)
[*]Slow Fall now only works on friendly party or raid target.
Fire
[*]Molten Armor damage reduced to 75/130 for Rank 1 & 2, Rank 3 remains at 170
[*]Burnout now increases the spell's cost on non-periodic spell criticals instead of all criticals.
[*]Hot Streak now proc Any time you score 2 non-periodic spell crit.
[*]Empowered Fire has a new effect - In addition, each time your Ignite talent causes damage, you have a 33/67/100% chance to regain 2% of your base mana.
[*]Ignite now proc from non-periodic critical strikes instead of all critical strikes.
Frost
[*]Enduring Winter now cannot occur more often than once every 6 sec.
So does that Ignite effect seem like kind of a "token" change?
I mean don't most Ignites get rewritten because it only ticks twice? It's been a while since I played so I might be mistaken.
The Muffin Man on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
So does that Ignite effect seem like kind of a "token" change?
I mean don't most Ignites get rewritten because it only ticks twice? It's been a while since I played so I might be mistaken.
Yeah, fire crits can come rolling in and it could screw with ignite. I think that's why they're making it 2% per tick instead of 1%.
So does that Ignite effect seem like kind of a "token" change?
I mean don't most Ignites get rewritten because it only ticks twice? It's been a while since I played so I might be mistaken.
Yeah, fire crits can come rolling in and it could screw with ignite. I think that's why they're making it 2% per tick instead of 1%.
2% of base mana for one tick is still pretty sub-par.
So I didn't read through all of the pages, but for the most part I don't see too many people glyphing for Living Bomb in their fire oriented specs, which I have always seen as a huge dps increase for TTW+Fireball and Frostfire builds.
Am I wrong and this is not the case? Just trying to figure out why people wouldn't use Living Bomb glyph over glyph of scorch(if there is a warlock in your raid) or molten armor if you absolutely need the scorch glyph.
Posts
at 78 you're not going to need to worry about optimal rotations, you just need to find one that's easy to remember and good enough. as you get more serious about raiding and assemble your gearset from heroics, that's when you do your research and learn about all the subtleties
ret paladins start off really high in the damage department but it will even out as you level and get some gear. Hopefully the holy paladin isnt going to want spell power cloth.
Of course, counterspell and slow (especially since it lands on bosses, which I was very pleased to learn) I find to be great boons but those may be overlooked
Eyes forever focused, on the sanguine, metal dawn.
Dachish seems like he'd just rather skip the "good enough" step and get to the optimal one, which seems like a good idea to me.
And hey, someone's got to feed the holy paladin conjured bread, and it sure won't be the ret paladins!
Eyes forever focused, on the sanguine, metal dawn.
It's doable as arcane, certainly. It's nothing like frost aoe though. Frost aoe is king. If you love it, then stick with frost. Arcane is all about the single target burst damage.
I drank much less often when I leveled as arcane, compared to frost. I tried them both out on my way to 80, after the 2-minute evo was put in.
Arcane was faster than frost by far, even after 66, when you get ice lance. You cast slow, then do either ABx2-ABarr or ABx3-ABarr, and mobs go down. It's actually fairly mana efficient, and with the constant evocating you're golden. And because you're opening with slow (for +12% damage), the mobs are snared just like if you were frost. Really you're just losing out on frostbite and ice barrier, and in exchange you're gaining arcane power, PoM, and flat-out higher individual DPS.
I would strongly recommend leveling as arcane after 64 to anyone. Granted, the original question was about AOE as arcane, and without some of the frost talents, your blizzards won't crit for double, and will do somewhat less damage. Not a ton less damage, mind you, but before 74 you won't have any points in ice shards, and you'll never have points in piercing ice. Overall, though, you're going to have cleaner runs doing slightly less AOE damage with blizzard, and considerably more single-target damage on bosses and big trash with arcane spells, in my opinion. Plus when you're questing, you'll rarely have chances to AOE kite.
Just my opinion though!
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
3.2 Patch Notes Regarding Mages!
Also, nothing to fix the crappy damage of the only mage spec that can bring replenishment to a raid. Huzzah!
Couldn't they buff the damage on the Frostbolt glyph and add some sort of Ice Lance glyph that makes it a lot better for PvE that won't break PvP? Or would PvP frost actually be able to utilize the Frostbolt glyph? I was under the impression that unglyphed frostbolt is still a major part of the spec for snaring/Frosbite purposes.
Add a stacking DoT which deals 5% of frostbolt's damage + adds another 5% snare (unaffected by snare increasing talents) over 5 seconds(refreshing with application)
Meaning the more you stack it the higher the DoT/Snare gets to a cap of let's say 10 applications.
As you stack applications of frostbolt you deal greater damage.
Since in arenas you aren't really likely to be able to machinegun frostbolts, and since unless it's kept up it will fall off the target it's primarily just going to effect the boss fights.
thoughts?
naknaknaknaknak
This makes it even harder for mages to gear in PVE though - haste and spell power are already proportionally much better for frost mages than arcane and fire mages than crit. With that change, it'd be even worse, and mages would be unable to get frost-optimal gear.
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
oh jesus finally.
its about fucking time.
Edit - Y'know, the Torment the Weak question was kinda retarded. First of all, our clearcasting talent is along the way to it. As is Spell Impact and Focus Magic. I can see the argument being made against tier 1 specifically of the arcane line, but ultimately, it's fine.
Playing With Fire has always made me think "why the fuck would anyone take that talent" so I hope it gets changed. I mean, my latest tinkering of fire talenting does put it to use, but it'd be nice anyhow.
Lastly, Flamestrike should be an AoE dropped on where your current target stands. It doesn't make much sense to drop it at any other point in time; if you drop it and just want things running through it for the DoT and missing the instant damage, it's not worth the mana cost.
Fuck.
More specifically, they were saying the bonus multiplier for Ice Lance against frozen targets/FoF buff on the mage would have to be 6x instead of the current 3x (4x glyphed).
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
All fire needs is one more solid defensive mechanic and it will be pretty sporty for arena.
I mean don't most Ignites get rewritten because it only ticks twice? It's been a while since I played so I might be mistaken.
Yeah, fire crits can come rolling in and it could screw with ignite. I think that's why they're making it 2% per tick instead of 1%.
But this is part of why I quit, I suppose.
Am I wrong and this is not the case? Just trying to figure out why people wouldn't use Living Bomb glyph over glyph of scorch(if there is a warlock in your raid) or molten armor if you absolutely need the scorch glyph.