Run the fuck away. (every hunter of every spec can wreck mages)
Be that as it may, any tips? Also, what classes do wreck hunters? I don't have much experience with hunters at all.
Use your fire ward to mitigate some of the insane explosive shot damage. When you pull up close to nova, do it at max range to avoid getting freeze trapped. Sheep the pet if you can, otherwise have it nova'd (or be ready to pop icy veins) when you use deep freeze on the hunter. I mean, you should be popping IV after a deep freeze anyway to get in maximum shatterbolts. He'll juke your frostbolt with a feign death if he's not in a deep freeze, so be ready to re-click and lose 2.x seconds of the fight to that.
But yeah, hunters fuck mages pretty hard.
Mouschi on
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
And if he's BM, you might as well sit down so he crits you and ends it faster. There is no way you're making it out of that fight alive, assuming equal gear, level, etc.
Bestial Wrath breaks...everything you do, they do a lot of damage from TWO unstoppable sources, they'll eat through your barrier (and buffs) in no time through sheer damage alone, let alone Tranq Shot. Ice Block is a good way to avoid about half the buff, but I don't think it'll take more than 8 seconds to finish you off in 1v1.
The Muffin Man on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
And if he's BM, you might as well sit down so he crits you and ends it faster. There is no way you're making it out of that fight alive, assuming equal gear, level, etc.
Here, this might help with understanding the situation of a BM hunter coming at you:
So I dual-Specced.. Arcane is my primary. What would be a great AOE spec? I was thinking a little bit of Ice for shatter and blizzard, and maybe some Fire?
So I dual-Specced.. Arcane is my primary. What would be a great AOE spec? I was thinking a little bit of Ice for shatter and blizzard, and maybe some Fire?
Frostfire is the best raiding AoE spec. You can get blastwave, dragon's breath, firestarter, and amped up blizzard. If you don't like the aoe in fire you can get a point in imp blizzard and maybe even shatter. There are quite a few points to play with in the spec after filling out the damage talents for the main nukes.
Oh, and per the discussion on the last page, I don't understand why arcane gets such a ridiculously powerful threat reduction talent compared to, well, pretty much any spec in the game.
arcane gets threat reduction because of the amount of speed at which arcane operates
i have 564 haste rating.
that is goddamn fast. arcane blast for me casts at a flat 2 seconds without even considering icy veins or bloodlust
if i didn't have that kind of threat mitigation i'd easily blow past the MT no question. it's a big part of what allows arcane to compete with FFB/FBttw as a raid spec, because it allows arcane to fly out of the gate guns blazing
But it pretty much allows the arcane spec to never have to consider threat ever, at any point in a fight, which is far beyond the scope of "flying out of the gate." No other class/spec besides hunters can really ignore threat the way arcane mages can, and even hunters can have resisted FDs (or at least they used to). If that's supposed to be a spec perk, then I guess that's that. I have a feeling it's more arbitrary, though.
And arcane is far from the only spec that can lead off with incredible damage and blow past the MT. Hell, FFB can get two crits right away followed by an instant Pyro. If a feral druid uses Berserk at the start of a fight, he can definitely pull aggro too.
It's not really an arcane specific issue (being able to unload excessively and pull aggro at the start of a fight), so really my question remains. Why is there such a uniquely extreme amount of threat reduction that makes threat a non-issue for the tree?
okay you're obviously not reading what i am saying
that talent is what allows arcane to be viable. it does not get 2x critical damage, therefore, it must be fast. therefore, there are a lot of spells being cast and a lot of damage in a steady stream is being laid down very quickly. without that sort of threat mitigation the entire POINT of arcane is nullified. we have to slow down, a shitton of dps is lost, arcane quickly becomes terrible for raids.
bottom line is due to arcane's DPS being steady and constant as opposed to spikes of burst throughout the fight.
why are you butthurt about it? arcane isn't the best DPS in the game and it's not the best DPS in the class. why are you implying it needs a nerf?
that talent is what allows arcane to be viable. it does not get 2x critical damage, therefore, it must be fast. therefore, there are a lot of spells being cast and a lot of damage in a steady stream is being laid down very quickly. without that sort of threat mitigation the entire POINT of arcane is nullified. we have to slow down, a shitton of dps is lost, arcane quickly becomes terrible for raids.
bottom line is due to arcane's DPS being steady and constant as opposed to spikes of burst throughout the fight.
Damage causes the same threat whether it is fast and steady with 175% crits or big and bursty with ridiculous FFB crits + ignites. In fact, in the short term, steady damage doesn't need threat reduction as much as burst since it's less likely to RNG past the 130% threshold. And the further you get into a fight, the less of a risk burst damage has of putting you over the threshold.
If your argument is that arcane has to be able to unload right away instead of waiting a few seconds like the fire-based specs might in order to compete, then you're going to have to explain how 5 seconds (at most) gives viability to arcane in 3+ minute encounters.
why are you butthurt about it? arcane isn't the best DPS in the game and it's not the best DPS in the class. why are you implying it needs a nerf?
If arcane isn't even the best DPS, then there's even less of a need for extra threat reduction. The highest DPS specs are the ones that are going to run into threat cap issues.
Oh, but way to official forums it up and take my legitimate question as "butthurt" and "nerf arcane."
No, I read it just fine. The problem is in your logic train derailments.
cute
Damage causes the same threat whether it is fast and steady with 175% crits or big and bursty with ridiculous FFB crits + ignites.
no shit. no argument there.
In fact, in the short term, steady damage doesn't need threat reduction as much as burst since it's less likely to RNG past the 130% threshold. And the further you get into a fight, the less of a risk burst damage has of putting you over the threshold.
that's my entire point. arcane's entire shtick is to be able to cast fast and continue casting within the limits of their mana. do you even know how arcane works?
If your argument is that arcane has to be able to unload right away instead of waiting a few seconds like the fire-based specs might in order to compete, then you're going to have to explain how 5 seconds (at most) gives viability to arcane in 3+ minute encounters.
okay that answers my question.
If arcane isn't even the best DPS, then there's even less of a need for extra threat reduction. The highest DPS specs are the ones that are going to run into threat cap issues.
Oh, but way to official forums it up and take my legitimate question as "butthurt" and "nerf arcane.
you realize what you just said right? that since arcane isn't the best DPS, that is a reason to knock it down a peg?
the thing is... if we didn't have that threat mitigation Arcane mages would not be able to compete.
seriously, you have no damn clue how arcane works from the way you talk about it.
AS I SAID BEFORE, Arcane's damage is STEADY and CONSTANT. without the large threat mitigation the entire PURPOSE OF ARCANE'S PLAYSTYLE IS NULLIFIED. what i am saying to you, outright, is that threat mitigation is what ALLOWS ARCANE TO EVEN COMPETE WITH FFB.
to put it to you another way, forty, look at how threat develops over a fight as compared between the tank, an FFB mage, and an arcane mage.
the tank's threat does not spike at random intervals throughout the fight, it constantly curves upwards. frostfire's comes in short spikes which are offset by the fact that each individual set of bursts of hot streak and FFB are ridiculously powerful.
however, arcane's modus operandi acquires threat in the same way the tank builds it, in a steady stream. as a pure DPS class our damage will obviously outstrip the tank's damage, therefore our threat is significantly reduced so that our threat does not curve up sharply and overtake the tank. and since the spec's entire purpose is momentum and making the most use of your mana and time in an encounter, time spent casting invis/standing there like a dork is a sharper DPS drop for arcane than it is for FFB.
why do shamans get earth shield and not paladins? because that's a feature of the class and spec!
why do hunters get misdirect? because that's a feature of the class!
why do arcane mages get a large threat reduction? i think you know the answer
Arcane puts out less DPS than fire. So it generates less threat. Arcane does not need threat reduction more than fire.
I haven't seen anyone calling for a nerf to arcane's threat reduction. Forty commented on the fact that arcane's threat reduction is crazy good, and wondered why it was so good. It's a valid question, since arcane doesn't generate 33% more damage than fire, even in the first twenty seconds of a fight when it might generate more damage than fire with an immediate IV/AP.
Your talk about arcane's threat being steady is beside the point. All that matters is how much damage you've done to the mob over the course of the fight at any given point in time. The bursty hot streaking fire mage has done roughly as much damage as the slow and steady arcane mage you've demonstrated for your argument, but the arcane mage is at 60% threat and the FFB mage is at 80% threat. TTW fire is at 90%.
It's just a relic of whatever theory Blizzard had for how arcane should work in vanilla. Nobody's calling for a nerf, it's just weird.
Mouschi on
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
you realize what you just said right? that since arcane isn't the best DPS, that is a reason to knock it down a peg?
Uh, what? Where was this now? I never stated anything even close to the desire to make arcane do less damage. All I've done is ask why arcane "requires" 2/3 the threat generation of most other caster specs, and you've flown off the handle and typed a bunch of confusing rhetoric at me.
the thing is... if we didn't have that threat mitigation Arcane mages would not be able to compete.
seriously, you have no damn clue how arcane works from the way you talk about it.
AS I SAID BEFORE, Arcane's damage is STEADY and CONSTANT. without the large threat mitigation the entire PURPOSE OF ARCANE'S PLAYSTYLE IS NULLIFIED. what i am saying to you, outright, is that threat mitigation is what ALLOWS ARCANE TO EVEN COMPETE WITH FFB.
Yes, that is certainly what you are typing all right. Being able to type something does not make it true, no matter how many capital letters there are.
to put it to you another way, forty, look at how threat develops over a fight as compared between the tank, an FFB mage, and an arcane mage.
the tank's threat does not spike at random intervals throughout the fight, it constantly curves upwards. frostfire's comes in short spikes which are offset by the fact that each individual set of bursts of hot streak and FFB are ridiculously powerful.
however, arcane's modus operandi acquires threat in the same way the tank builds it, in a steady stream. as a pure DPS class our damage will obviously outstrip the tank's damage, therefore our threat is significantly reduced so that our threat does not curve up sharply and overtake the tank. and since the spec's entire purpose is momentum and making the most use of your mana and time in an encounter, time spent casting invis/standing there like a dork is a sharper DPS drop for arcane than it is for FFB.
You seem to demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of threat here, as the graph of threat is generally linear over time, not an upward curve. If you were ever close to overtaking the tank's threat as arcane, then a fire mage doing similar (not even more! hell, even a little less) damage would have pulled aggro long ago. By the time you're even a minute into a non threat-wipe encounter, steady vs. spiky damage is almost completely irrelevant.
Put another way, if you zoom out enough on a graph that looks like a staircase up close, it's just going to look like a sloped line. The difference here is that a fire mage's slope is much steeper and is much more likely to overcome the tank's slope. An arcane mage would have to do 50% more DPS than a fire-based mage to be at his threat level.
why do shamans get earth shield and not paladins? because that's a feature of the class and spec!
why do hunters get misdirect? because that's a feature of the class!
why do arcane mages get a large threat reduction? i think you know the answer
Except that's understating its effect, and the other examples aren't even comparable. Arcane mages are, by and large, completely removed from the threat minigame. Threat is not a class or spec-specific feature. Blizzard has stated multiple times that they want DPS players to be concerned with threat (I don't really agree, but that's irrelevant). My question regards the one inconsistency to this design. All other DPS specs* deal with and must be concerned with threat.
I'm just not sold on the fact that this is the intended design:
1. You get to completely ignore the threat mechanic, but you don't get to do as much DPS as fire specs.
Would you not prefer that this be the model:
2. You have to consider threat like all other DPS specs*, but you can do as much DPS as fire specs.
Arcane puts out less DPS than fire. So it generates less threat. Arcane does not need threat reduction more than fire.
I haven't seen anyone calling for a nerf to arcane's threat reduction. Forty commented on the fact that arcane's threat reduction is crazy good, and wondered why it was so good. It's a valid question, since arcane doesn't generate 33% more damage than fire, even in the first twenty seconds of a fight when it might generate more damage than fire with an immediate IV/AP.
Your talk about arcane's threat being steady is beside the point. All that matters is how much damage you've done to the mob over the course of the fight at any given point in time. The bursty hot streaking fire mage has done roughly as much damage as the slow and steady arcane mage you've demonstrated for your argument, but the arcane mage is at 60% threat and the FFB mage is at 80% threat. TTW fire is at 90%.
It's just a relic of whatever theory Blizzard had for how arcane should work in vanilla. Nobody's calling for a nerf, it's just weird.
You completely understand and are completely awesome.
no, because i don't want all of the classes and specs to perform exactly the same, and the blizzard devs agree with me. you know, how ghostcrawler talks about homogenization?
also, the gist of my point remains the same even though i'm a failure at math - it doesn't matter whether it's a curve or a line or whatever, i was simply trying to illustrate that arcane threat scales in a similar fashion to tank threat whereas the bursty specs spike throughout an encounter.
and for the record, no, i do not want to play FFB with purple blasts instead of blue/red ones. that's the whole reason i'm an arcane mage and not FFB. that's basically what it comes down to. if you're going to lower the threat mitigation, you have to bump up arcane's damage multipliers, and then the two specs start to look more and more alike, and that's boring as shit.
Super Namicchi on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
You realise the illogical nature of what you're saying?
If Arcane is only right now able to stay below the tank due to insane threat reduction..if that is true
"If you're going to lower the threat mitigation, you have to bump up arcane's damage multipliers", is then the dumbest statement ever.
And if it isn't true that Arcane only stays with the tank due to their insane threat reduction, why do they need the reduction?
what i mean, dhalphir, is that if you lower the threat reduction you have to up the multipliers to compensate for arcane having to slow down if that makes sense.
arcane's current shtick is how rapidly it casts spells. if you remove the threat reduction, arcane has to slow down, thus loses dps.
A properly played Arc mage will need the reduction. Most arcs I see are just too scared about mana management because they've been spoiled by FFB or TTW, so they only toss out 3 ABs before dropping the debuff.
I've always had to pop Mirror Image and Invis in any boss fight because having over 1k spirit = more ABs = more threat.
A properly played Arc mage will need the reduction. Most arcs I see are just too scared about mana management because they've been spoiled by FFB or TTW, so they only toss out 3 ABs before dropping the debuff.
I've always had to pop Mirror Image and Invis in any boss fight because having over 1k spirit = more ABs = more threat.
I think the reason most people only do 3xAB, then ABarr/Missile barrage proc AM is because thats the most efficent way to deal damage. Past that, you're burning way to much mana for a slight increase in dps
A properly played Arc mage will need the reduction. Most arcs I see are just too scared about mana management because they've been spoiled by FFB or TTW, so they only toss out 3 ABs before dropping the debuff.
I've always had to pop Mirror Image and Invis in any boss fight because having over 1k spirit = more ABs = more threat.
I think the reason most people only do 3xAB, then ABarr/Missile barrage proc AM is because thats the most efficent way to deal damage. Past that, you're burning way to much mana for a slight increase in dps
Those same mages also finish the fight with half a mana bar.
Like I said, being scared of managing mana is what holds arc mages back. If you're doing a 5 minute fight like Ignis or Hodir with just a 3xAB + Bar/AM and you end up with half your mana at the end, you're losing a ton of DPS. If you do the same fights with 5xAB, you get plenty more DPS, as well as more Clearcasting and MB procs simply from casting more spells. It all depends on your mana regen, which should primarily be spirit, nerfed or not.
I haven't played in almost 2 months, but mages were still afraid to take spirit gear then...
no, because i don't want all of the classes and specs to perform exactly the same, and the blizzard devs agree with me. you know, how ghostcrawler talks about homogenization?
Homogenization is not about making certain trees inferior. You clearly don't understand the homogenization discussion, nor how threat works.
Arcane should be tweaked to do competitive damage with the fire specs. I'm not even sure why it doesn't now, exactly, since it seemed on par in Naxx. Is it a gear scaling issue? If so, then just work on the numbers so it benefits more from SP, stats, and the combat ratings. Then once it's a top tier damage spec again, drop Arcane Subtlety to 20% so you don't get a spec that can do #1 damage and never has to worry about pulling aggro.
A properly played Arc mage will need the reduction. Most arcs I see are just too scared about mana management because they've been spoiled by FFB or TTW, so they only toss out 3 ABs before dropping the debuff.
I've always had to pop Mirror Image and Invis in any boss fight because having over 1k spirit = more ABs = more threat.
Either you do 50% more damage than a TTW mage or he's popping MI (why wouldn't you pop it anyway?) and Invis as well and having even more threat problems.
Either you do 50% more damage than a TTW mage or he's popping MI (why wouldn't you pop it anyway?) and Invis as well and having even more threat problems.
Oh the TTW mage we had definitely had threat problems, (every ret and prot paladin had him on focus for salvation), but he was strictly against arcane simply because he thought spirit was a stupid stat. Once he got a spirit set and tried it out, he was happy with what he learned, and has been arcane ever since.
EDIT: I didn't pop MI for a DPS boost, I popped it to spread threat among the copies. They're usually too stupid to target the right mob, and if they do, they just stand there like rogues. (lol)
no, because i don't want all of the classes and specs to perform exactly the same, and the blizzard devs agree with me. you know, how ghostcrawler talks about homogenization?
Homogenization is not about making certain trees inferior. You clearly don't understand the homogenization discussion, nor how threat works.
No, you.
Arcane is more attacks. More attacks is more damage. More damage is more threat. More threat needs threat reduction.
If you remove the threat reduction, then theoretically the mage will be pulling aggro if the mage continues to do the same amount of damage. If the mage does not wish to pull aggro in this situation, the mage would need to reduce their damage. If the damage is reduced to such a degree, then Arcane will no longer being viable raiding, unless speed is reduced and damage is increased. At which point Arcane will be nearly identical to other specs.
Arcane is more attacks. More attacks is more damage. More damage is more threat. More threat needs threat reduction.
In order to justify having 40% threat reduction, arcane would have to do 50% more damage than fire. It doesn't.
Attacking more often doesn't increase threat. Only DPS increases threat, and arcane's DPS is within a couple percentage points of fire's. Arcane doesn't need the threat reduction more than fire.
It's a goofy talent, and threat management isn't a huge deal at this point, so nobody really cares about it. But stop arguing that arcane is faster, therefore it generates lots more threat. That's silly.
Mouschi on
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
either way, your condescension is pretty frustrating so you win the discussion
I got the impression that you were the one being condescending in these posts, especially since your logic makes no sense.
Casting speed does not = threat. If you cast twice as many spells as a fire mage and do less damage, you are doing less threat. If you are having threat issues despite having an insanely large threat reduction talent then your tank is a terrible player, you need to be doing at least 50% more damage than a typical caster with 10% threat reduction to stay even with them on the meters, and since arcane spec is currently inferior in PVE I find it very hard to believe that you would be.
Your suggestion of increasing arcane damage if they reduced their threat reduction also makes no sense, that would just mean that you would spend the entire fight unable to cast since you'd be threat capped immediately doing more damage for more threat.
Arcane is more attacks. More attacks is more damage. More damage is more threat. More threat needs threat reduction.
Attacking more often doesn't increase threat. Only DPS increases threat,
Ok, let's say that Mr. Fire is doing 200 damage every 5 seconds, over a span of 30 seconds. That's 1200.
Let's now say that Mr. Arcane is doing 150 damage every 2 seconds over a span of 30 seconds. That's 1500.
It's less damage with more speed. Do you see how that comes out as more dps?
no, because i don't want all of the classes and specs to perform exactly the same, and the blizzard devs agree with me. you know, how ghostcrawler talks about homogenization?
Homogenization is not about making certain trees inferior. You clearly don't understand the homogenization discussion, nor how threat works.
No, you.
Arcane is more attacks. More attacks is more damage. More damage is more threat. More threat needs threat reduction.
no, because i don't want all of the classes and specs to perform exactly the same, and the blizzard devs agree with me. you know, how ghostcrawler talks about homogenization?
Homogenization is not about making certain trees inferior. You clearly don't understand the homogenization discussion, nor how threat works.
No, you.
Arcane is more attacks. More attacks is more damage. More damage is more threat. More threat needs threat reduction.
This post is more facepalm.
And what part of my statement is wrong? Please stop acting like you know everything on the subject without something to back it up.
i admit, i have trouble sometimes controlling my condescension, and for that i do apologize. i'm simply trying to convey that as an arcane mage, i know how my threat generation works. i have raided as arcane since i hit 80 at the beginning of the year.
while forty makes some good points, he demonstrates some serious assumptions on how the spec works that leads me to believe he hasn't actually played arcane. couple that with his smug attitude and it's very hard to not get snappy :P
Arcane is more attacks. More attacks is more damage. More damage is more threat. More threat needs threat reduction.
Attacking more often doesn't increase threat. Only DPS increases threat,
Ok, let's say that Mr. Fire is doing 200 damage every 5 seconds, over a span of 30 seconds. That's 1200.
Let's now say that Mr. Arcane is doing 150 damage every 2 seconds over a span of 30 seconds. That's 1500.
It's less damage with more speed. Do you see how that comes out as more dps?
If the specs compared like they did in your nonsense example, then arcane would be doing 25% more DPS/damage than fire and every mage would be arcane spec.
The math in your example isn't even correct:
150 damage every 2 seconds over a span of 30 seconds is 2,250 total. That's an even more ridiculous discrepancy.
The reality of it is more like this:
Mr. Fire does 200 damage every 3 seconds.
Mr. Arcane does 120 damage every 2 seconds.
Over 30 seconds Mr. Fire does 2,000 damage and Mr. Arcane does 1,800 damage.
Mr. Fire is now at 1,800 (2,000*.9) threat and Mr. Arcane is now at 1,080 (1,800 * .6) threat. If Mr. Arcane only had 10% threat reduction he would be at 1,620 threat, still 10% under Mr. Fire.
Mr. Arcane therefore has far more threat reduction than needed for his inferior damage output. He would be better served if his extra threat reduction could be traded in for the ability to do 10% more DPS to compete with all the fire mages out there.
Mr. Arcane therefore has far more threat reduction than needed for his inferior damage output. He would be better served if his extra threat reduction could be traded in for the ability to do 10% more DPS to compete with all the fire mages out there.
I honestly don't know where those numbers come from. It's laughable. Even more evidence my previous post was completely relevant to this thread.
Posts
Use your fire ward to mitigate some of the insane explosive shot damage. When you pull up close to nova, do it at max range to avoid getting freeze trapped. Sheep the pet if you can, otherwise have it nova'd (or be ready to pop icy veins) when you use deep freeze on the hunter. I mean, you should be popping IV after a deep freeze anyway to get in maximum shatterbolts. He'll juke your frostbolt with a feign death if he's not in a deep freeze, so be ready to re-click and lose 2.x seconds of the fight to that.
But yeah, hunters fuck mages pretty hard.
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
Bestial Wrath breaks...everything you do, they do a lot of damage from TWO unstoppable sources, they'll eat through your barrier (and buffs) in no time through sheer damage alone, let alone Tranq Shot. Ice Block is a good way to avoid about half the buff, but I don't think it'll take more than 8 seconds to finish you off in 1v1.
Here, this might help with understanding the situation of a BM hunter coming at you:
Frostfire is the best raiding AoE spec. You can get blastwave, dragon's breath, firestarter, and amped up blizzard. If you don't like the aoe in fire you can get a point in imp blizzard and maybe even shatter. There are quite a few points to play with in the spec after filling out the damage talents for the main nukes.
fail
i have 564 haste rating.
that is goddamn fast. arcane blast for me casts at a flat 2 seconds without even considering icy veins or bloodlust
if i didn't have that kind of threat mitigation i'd easily blow past the MT no question. it's a big part of what allows arcane to compete with FFB/FBttw as a raid spec, because it allows arcane to fly out of the gate guns blazing
And arcane is far from the only spec that can lead off with incredible damage and blow past the MT. Hell, FFB can get two crits right away followed by an instant Pyro. If a feral druid uses Berserk at the start of a fight, he can definitely pull aggro too.
It's not really an arcane specific issue (being able to unload excessively and pull aggro at the start of a fight), so really my question remains. Why is there such a uniquely extreme amount of threat reduction that makes threat a non-issue for the tree?
that talent is what allows arcane to be viable. it does not get 2x critical damage, therefore, it must be fast. therefore, there are a lot of spells being cast and a lot of damage in a steady stream is being laid down very quickly. without that sort of threat mitigation the entire POINT of arcane is nullified. we have to slow down, a shitton of dps is lost, arcane quickly becomes terrible for raids.
bottom line is due to arcane's DPS being steady and constant as opposed to spikes of burst throughout the fight.
why are you butthurt about it? arcane isn't the best DPS in the game and it's not the best DPS in the class. why are you implying it needs a nerf?
Damage causes the same threat whether it is fast and steady with 175% crits or big and bursty with ridiculous FFB crits + ignites. In fact, in the short term, steady damage doesn't need threat reduction as much as burst since it's less likely to RNG past the 130% threshold. And the further you get into a fight, the less of a risk burst damage has of putting you over the threshold.
If your argument is that arcane has to be able to unload right away instead of waiting a few seconds like the fire-based specs might in order to compete, then you're going to have to explain how 5 seconds (at most) gives viability to arcane in 3+ minute encounters.
If arcane isn't even the best DPS, then there's even less of a need for extra threat reduction. The highest DPS specs are the ones that are going to run into threat cap issues.
Oh, but way to official forums it up and take my legitimate question as "butthurt" and "nerf arcane."
cute
no shit. no argument there.
that's my entire point. arcane's entire shtick is to be able to cast fast and continue casting within the limits of their mana. do you even know how arcane works?
okay that answers my question.
you realize what you just said right? that since arcane isn't the best DPS, that is a reason to knock it down a peg?
the thing is... if we didn't have that threat mitigation Arcane mages would not be able to compete.
seriously, you have no damn clue how arcane works from the way you talk about it.
AS I SAID BEFORE, Arcane's damage is STEADY and CONSTANT. without the large threat mitigation the entire PURPOSE OF ARCANE'S PLAYSTYLE IS NULLIFIED. what i am saying to you, outright, is that threat mitigation is what ALLOWS ARCANE TO EVEN COMPETE WITH FFB.
to put it to you another way, forty, look at how threat develops over a fight as compared between the tank, an FFB mage, and an arcane mage.
the tank's threat does not spike at random intervals throughout the fight, it constantly curves upwards. frostfire's comes in short spikes which are offset by the fact that each individual set of bursts of hot streak and FFB are ridiculously powerful.
however, arcane's modus operandi acquires threat in the same way the tank builds it, in a steady stream. as a pure DPS class our damage will obviously outstrip the tank's damage, therefore our threat is significantly reduced so that our threat does not curve up sharply and overtake the tank. and since the spec's entire purpose is momentum and making the most use of your mana and time in an encounter, time spent casting invis/standing there like a dork is a sharper DPS drop for arcane than it is for FFB.
why do shamans get earth shield and not paladins? because that's a feature of the class and spec!
why do hunters get misdirect? because that's a feature of the class!
why do arcane mages get a large threat reduction? i think you know the answer
I haven't seen anyone calling for a nerf to arcane's threat reduction. Forty commented on the fact that arcane's threat reduction is crazy good, and wondered why it was so good. It's a valid question, since arcane doesn't generate 33% more damage than fire, even in the first twenty seconds of a fight when it might generate more damage than fire with an immediate IV/AP.
Your talk about arcane's threat being steady is beside the point. All that matters is how much damage you've done to the mob over the course of the fight at any given point in time. The bursty hot streaking fire mage has done roughly as much damage as the slow and steady arcane mage you've demonstrated for your argument, but the arcane mage is at 60% threat and the FFB mage is at 80% threat. TTW fire is at 90%.
It's just a relic of whatever theory Blizzard had for how arcane should work in vanilla. Nobody's calling for a nerf, it's just weird.
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
Yes, that is certainly what you are typing all right. Being able to type something does not make it true, no matter how many capital letters there are.
You seem to demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of threat here, as the graph of threat is generally linear over time, not an upward curve. If you were ever close to overtaking the tank's threat as arcane, then a fire mage doing similar (not even more! hell, even a little less) damage would have pulled aggro long ago. By the time you're even a minute into a non threat-wipe encounter, steady vs. spiky damage is almost completely irrelevant.
Put another way, if you zoom out enough on a graph that looks like a staircase up close, it's just going to look like a sloped line. The difference here is that a fire mage's slope is much steeper and is much more likely to overcome the tank's slope. An arcane mage would have to do 50% more DPS than a fire-based mage to be at his threat level.
Except that's understating its effect, and the other examples aren't even comparable. Arcane mages are, by and large, completely removed from the threat minigame. Threat is not a class or spec-specific feature. Blizzard has stated multiple times that they want DPS players to be concerned with threat (I don't really agree, but that's irrelevant). My question regards the one inconsistency to this design. All other DPS specs* deal with and must be concerned with threat.
I'm just not sold on the fact that this is the intended design:
1. You get to completely ignore the threat mechanic, but you don't get to do as much DPS as fire specs.
Would you not prefer that this be the model:
2. You have to consider threat like all other DPS specs*, but you can do as much DPS as fire specs.
(*Except hunters for the most part)
You completely understand and are completely awesome.
also, the gist of my point remains the same even though i'm a failure at math - it doesn't matter whether it's a curve or a line or whatever, i was simply trying to illustrate that arcane threat scales in a similar fashion to tank threat whereas the bursty specs spike throughout an encounter.
and for the record, no, i do not want to play FFB with purple blasts instead of blue/red ones. that's the whole reason i'm an arcane mage and not FFB. that's basically what it comes down to. if you're going to lower the threat mitigation, you have to bump up arcane's damage multipliers, and then the two specs start to look more and more alike, and that's boring as shit.
If Arcane is only right now able to stay below the tank due to insane threat reduction..if that is true
"If you're going to lower the threat mitigation, you have to bump up arcane's damage multipliers", is then the dumbest statement ever.
And if it isn't true that Arcane only stays with the tank due to their insane threat reduction, why do they need the reduction?
arcane's current shtick is how rapidly it casts spells. if you remove the threat reduction, arcane has to slow down, thus loses dps.
I've always had to pop Mirror Image and Invis in any boss fight because having over 1k spirit = more ABs = more threat.
The Raid
I think the reason most people only do 3xAB, then ABarr/Missile barrage proc AM is because thats the most efficent way to deal damage. Past that, you're burning way to much mana for a slight increase in dps
Those same mages also finish the fight with half a mana bar.
Like I said, being scared of managing mana is what holds arc mages back. If you're doing a 5 minute fight like Ignis or Hodir with just a 3xAB + Bar/AM and you end up with half your mana at the end, you're losing a ton of DPS. If you do the same fights with 5xAB, you get plenty more DPS, as well as more Clearcasting and MB procs simply from casting more spells. It all depends on your mana regen, which should primarily be spirit, nerfed or not.
I haven't played in almost 2 months, but mages were still afraid to take spirit gear then...
The Raid
Arcane should be tweaked to do competitive damage with the fire specs. I'm not even sure why it doesn't now, exactly, since it seemed on par in Naxx. Is it a gear scaling issue? If so, then just work on the numbers so it benefits more from SP, stats, and the combat ratings. Then once it's a top tier damage spec again, drop Arcane Subtlety to 20% so you don't get a spec that can do #1 damage and never has to worry about pulling aggro.
Either you do 50% more damage than a TTW mage or he's popping MI (why wouldn't you pop it anyway?) and Invis as well and having even more threat problems.
either way, your condescension is pretty frustrating so you win the discussion
Oh the TTW mage we had definitely had threat problems, (every ret and prot paladin had him on focus for salvation), but he was strictly against arcane simply because he thought spirit was a stupid stat. Once he got a spirit set and tried it out, he was happy with what he learned, and has been arcane ever since.
EDIT: I didn't pop MI for a DPS boost, I popped it to spread threat among the copies. They're usually too stupid to target the right mob, and if they do, they just stand there like rogues. (lol)
The Raid
No, you.
Arcane is more attacks. More attacks is more damage. More damage is more threat. More threat needs threat reduction.
If you remove the threat reduction, then theoretically the mage will be pulling aggro if the mage continues to do the same amount of damage. If the mage does not wish to pull aggro in this situation, the mage would need to reduce their damage. If the damage is reduced to such a degree, then Arcane will no longer being viable raiding, unless speed is reduced and damage is increased. At which point Arcane will be nearly identical to other specs.
In order to justify having 40% threat reduction, arcane would have to do 50% more damage than fire. It doesn't.
Attacking more often doesn't increase threat. Only DPS increases threat, and arcane's DPS is within a couple percentage points of fire's. Arcane doesn't need the threat reduction more than fire.
It's a goofy talent, and threat management isn't a huge deal at this point, so nobody really cares about it. But stop arguing that arcane is faster, therefore it generates lots more threat. That's silly.
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
But you brought the condescension first so wouldn't that mean you won??
I got the impression that you were the one being condescending in these posts, especially since your logic makes no sense.
Casting speed does not = threat. If you cast twice as many spells as a fire mage and do less damage, you are doing less threat. If you are having threat issues despite having an insanely large threat reduction talent then your tank is a terrible player, you need to be doing at least 50% more damage than a typical caster with 10% threat reduction to stay even with them on the meters, and since arcane spec is currently inferior in PVE I find it very hard to believe that you would be.
Your suggestion of increasing arcane damage if they reduced their threat reduction also makes no sense, that would just mean that you would spend the entire fight unable to cast since you'd be threat capped immediately doing more damage for more threat.
Ok, let's say that Mr. Fire is doing 200 damage every 5 seconds, over a span of 30 seconds. That's 1200.
Let's now say that Mr. Arcane is doing 150 damage every 2 seconds over a span of 30 seconds. That's 1500.
It's less damage with more speed. Do you see how that comes out as more dps?
And what part of my statement is wrong? Please stop acting like you know everything on the subject without something to back it up.
while forty makes some good points, he demonstrates some serious assumptions on how the spec works that leads me to believe he hasn't actually played arcane. couple that with his smug attitude and it's very hard to not get snappy :P
Arcane vs. Fire always boils down to people who know how to mage versus people who don't.
The Raid
The math in your example isn't even correct:
150 damage every 2 seconds over a span of 30 seconds is 2,250 total. That's an even more ridiculous discrepancy.
The reality of it is more like this:
Mr. Fire does 200 damage every 3 seconds.
Mr. Arcane does 120 damage every 2 seconds.
Over 30 seconds Mr. Fire does 2,000 damage and Mr. Arcane does 1,800 damage.
Mr. Fire is now at 1,800 (2,000*.9) threat and Mr. Arcane is now at 1,080 (1,800 * .6) threat. If Mr. Arcane only had 10% threat reduction he would be at 1,620 threat, still 10% under Mr. Fire.
Mr. Arcane therefore has far more threat reduction than needed for his inferior damage output. He would be better served if his extra threat reduction could be traded in for the ability to do 10% more DPS to compete with all the fire mages out there.
I honestly don't know where those numbers come from. It's laughable. Even more evidence my previous post was completely relevant to this thread.
The Raid