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no peace on earth (or your house)

ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
edited November 2006 in Debate and/or Discourse
here

or here(this one loads kinda slow)

Pagosa Springs -- A homeowners group says it will fine a resident $25 a day until she removes a Christmas wreath with a peace sign that has offended some other residents as an anti-Iraq war protest or a symbol of Satan, said Bob Kearns, president of the Loma Linda Homeowners Association in Pagosa Springs. Lisa Jensen said she's not taking it down until after Christmas."

Bob Kearns:
"The peace sign has a lot of negativity associated with it. It's also an anti-Christ sign. That's how it started."


Changes in Colorado law in 2005 prevent homeowners' associations from prohibiting a number of actions, including display of the American flag, display of a service flag and display of a political sign meant to influence an election.

However, the law does not keep these associations from prohibiting other types of displays. The sign restrictions quoted to Jensen were in force during her presidency.


Peace on earth, Goodwill toward men.... or neither you know, whatever works for ya.

The gentleman citing the peace sign as anti-Christ also fired the five member board of the homeowners association when they refused to take action against those dang dirty hippies.

Honestly now, if I live in a community with a homeowners association I must toe the line with the politics of whomevers in charge of it.

While I could never see this going down over something like a Star of David I really can't think of a more neutral symbol of goodwill. I used to see them all over town around Xmas when I was a kid.

Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
ALocksly on
«13

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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    You don't seem to understand: peace is evil, and un-Christian. You think Jesus liked peace? Ha!

    Thanatos on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    apparently someone started the myth that the peace symbol is actually an inverted cross with the arms broken

    schwaaaa?

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I remember back in Sunday school they told me that the peace sign was anti-Christ because it was an upside-down cross with the "arms" of the cross broken. Seriously, how ridiculous and convoluted can you get?

    http://www.nisbett.com/symbols/peace_sign.htm

    Edit: Dammit, ALock!

    flamebroiledchicken on
    y59kydgzuja4.png
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    YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.

    YodaTuna on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    ALocksly wrote:
    Honestly now, if I live in a community with a homeowners association I must toe the line with the politics of whomevers in charge of it.

    Well, yes and no. It depends on the neighborhood and the state where you live. For one the state may have laws that will supercede that of the NA or other loopholes you can exploit if you really want to get away with shit. For two, there are plenty of NA's that don't get enforced. The neighborhood where I grew up technically had one but nobody gave a damn about what you did.

    It would be a lot nicer if there were more of the unenforced/not existing NA's than ones that actually exercise their authoritah, but there's not all that much you can do about 'em.

    moniker on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    YodaTuna wrote:
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.

    If they ever try to fuck with me, I will do all I can to bury them under actual law.

    Fencingsax on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I remember back in Sunday school they told me that the peace sign was anti-Christ because it was an upside-down cross with the "arms" of the cross broken. Seriously, how ridiculous and convoluted can you get?

    http://www.nisbett.com/symbols/peace_sign.htm

    Edit: Dammit, ALock!

    Oh my god! they actually assign sinister meaning to THE VULCAN LIVE LONG AND PROSPER SIGN

    :lol:

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    This is retarded to the highest degree.

    Richy on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    YodaTuna wrote:
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.

    You do realize that the government has done this to an extremely large degree already, right?

    And the peace sign is an inverted cross. It was used by hairless Illuminati to crucify a pacifist in the era of Atlantis. Don't any of you guys read?

    moniker on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Fencingsax wrote:
    YodaTuna wrote:
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.

    If they ever try to fuck with me, I will do all I can to bury them under actual law.

    NA's are legally binding.

    moniker on
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    silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The peace symbol is a combination of the Semaphoric symbols for N and D, superimposed. It stands for nuclear disarmament. The cross bit is bollocks, and I've never heard of it until I read this thread.

    silence1186 on
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    bone daddybone daddy Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    Fencingsax wrote:
    YodaTuna wrote:
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.

    If they ever try to fuck with me, I will do all I can to bury them under actual law.

    Yeah, I had a condo association give me shit once when I was renting a place and had a satellite dish out front. I told them to direct their complaints to the FCC, who would be happy to advise them of the federal fines and criminal charges they'd face if they decided to push the matter. Surprisingly enough, that was the last time I heard from them.

    bone daddy on
    Rogue helicopter?
    Ecoterrorism is actually the single largest terrorist threat at the moment. They don't usually kill people, but they blow up or set on fire very expensive things.
  • Options
    DiscGraceDiscGrace Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    The peace symbol is a combination of the Semaphoric symbols for N and D, superimposed. It stands for nuclear disarmament. The cross bit is bollocks, and I've never heard of it until I read this thread.

    I'd never heard of it either, but if people can read Satanic intent into Mr. Spock, then I guess they have a deep and abiding need to feel persecuted. :|

    DiscGrace on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    bone daddybone daddy Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    moniker wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    YodaTuna wrote:
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.

    If they ever try to fuck with me, I will do all I can to bury them under actual law.

    NA's are legally binding.

    Actual laws supercede private contracts.

    bone daddy on
    Rogue helicopter?
    Ecoterrorism is actually the single largest terrorist threat at the moment. They don't usually kill people, but they blow up or set on fire very expensive things.
  • Options
    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    This seems like a nice way to deal with a homeowner's association.
    Strip581.gif

    I wish I could do that.

    Who gave these people power to make rules and charge fines anyway?

    Richy on
    sig.gif
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Homeowners assocaitions are one of thelast bastians of legalized prejudice out there. Depending on thier associations bylaws they can get away with damn near anything they want with little ot no recourse.

    nexuscrawler on
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    PataPata Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    ...What?

    Really.

    What?

    Home owner's associations are so stupid.

    Pata on
    SRWWSig.pngEpisode 5: Mecha-World, Mecha-nisim, Mecha-beasts
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    Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited November 2006
    bone daddy wrote:
    moniker wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    YodaTuna wrote:
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.
    If they ever try to fuck with me, I will do all I can to bury them under actual law.
    NA's are legally binding.
    Actual laws supercede private contracts.
    We'll see if this is still true after a few years of the Roberts/ Alito/ Scalia/ Thomas Supreme Court.

    Irond Will on
    Wqdwp8l.png
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    werehippywerehippy Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    moniker wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    YodaTuna wrote:
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.

    If they ever try to fuck with me, I will do all I can to bury them under actual law.

    NA's are legally binding.

    There is a possible question of the legality, regardless of the legal weight of the agreement. I'm (fairly) sure you can't sign away certain rights, regardless of any contract you sign, especially if its unclear at the signing that this is happening. Specifically, I'm thinking about how an employment contract can't supercede a worker's right to a safe work environment and so on.

    So, there COULD be a case to be made that the NA is violating laws with a higher authority, in this case the right to freedom of speech, and doing so is actually acting against its stated purpose, maintaining property values.

    werehippy on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    bone daddy wrote:
    moniker wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    YodaTuna wrote:
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.

    If they ever try to fuck with me, I will do all I can to bury them under actual law.

    NA's are legally binding.

    Actual laws supercede private contracts.

    Yeah, but the law has to conflict with the contract in order to take over. Your dish is one case, and I'm sure there are plenty of others, but I don't see how it would apply to a lot of shit that NA's pull that is annoying and stupid, but you would have to do it. Painting your house a non-beige color, for instance, isn't likely to be a protected action in the state house or Congress.

    moniker on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    also read the section of playing cards on that site. It's hilarious

    nexuscrawler on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Richy wrote:
    Who gave these people power to make rules and charge fines anyway?

    Themselves. Yeah, they're that fucked up.

    moniker on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Coop boards here are even worse. They can legally tell you you can't sell an apartment you own.

    nexuscrawler on
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    bone daddybone daddy Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    Irond Will wrote:
    bone daddy wrote:
    moniker wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    YodaTuna wrote:
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.
    If they ever try to fuck with me, I will do all I can to bury them under actual law.
    NA's are legally binding.
    Actual laws supercede private contracts.
    We'll see if this is still true after a few years of the Roberts/ Alito/ Scalia/ Thomas Supreme Court.
    But if private contracts supercede laws, how will we pass laws banning civil-unionesque contracts between gay people?

    bone daddy on
    Rogue helicopter?
    Ecoterrorism is actually the single largest terrorist threat at the moment. They don't usually kill people, but they blow up or set on fire very expensive things.
  • Options
    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    moniker wrote:
    Richy wrote:
    Who gave these people power to make rules and charge fines anyway?

    Themselves. Yeah, they're that fucked up.

    Not really. At some point the owner of a parcel of land opted into the home owners association. The deed was then altered to give the HOA some legal standing. Whoever bought the house from the first person inherited the legal obligations outlined in the deed.

    Shinto on
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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    YodaTuna wrote:
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.

    In principle, they seem to be a good idea to confront actual problems that exist. For example, there was a guy renting to some people who (as it turned out) sold drugs in my old neighborhood. The HA used a significant amount of leverage to convince him to kick them out. But then the HA did other retarded stuff like tell people which color shingles were okay for their house, and has on more than one occasion put a halt to building due to this type of rule.

    When there aren't problems, the HA administration has nothing to do. So they make some up. :(

    Doc on
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    EDIT: nevermind.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Shinto wrote:
    moniker wrote:
    Richy wrote:
    Who gave these people power to make rules and charge fines anyway?

    Themselves. Yeah, they're that fucked up.

    Not really. At some point the owner of a parcel of land opted into the home owners association. The deed was then altered to give the HOA some legal standing. Whoever bought the house from the first person inherited the legal obligations outlined in the deed.

    Generally said HOA's rules would be made up of elected homeowners from the devlopment

    nexuscrawler on
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Shinto wrote:
    moniker wrote:
    Richy wrote:
    Who gave these people power to make rules and charge fines anyway?

    Themselves. Yeah, they're that fucked up.

    Not really. At some point the owner of a parcel of land opted into the home owners association. The deed was then altered to give the HOA some legal standing. Whoever bought the house from the first person inherited the legal obligations outlined in the deed.

    Can't the deed be altered again?

    Richy on
    sig.gif
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    bone daddybone daddy Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    moniker wrote:
    bone daddy wrote:
    moniker wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    YodaTuna wrote:
    Home owner's associations are retarded to the highest degree. I really don't want someone telling me what I can do to my own house.

    If they ever try to fuck with me, I will do all I can to bury them under actual law.

    NA's are legally binding.

    Actual laws supercede private contracts.

    Yeah, but the law has to conflict with the contract in order to take over. Your dish is one case, and I'm sure there are plenty of others, but I don't see how it would apply to a lot of shit that NA's pull that is annoying and stupid, but you would have to do it. Painting your house a non-beige color, for instance, isn't likely to be a protected action in the state house or Congress.

    No, but all you'd need is something open enough to interpretation to sue the members of the board or their boss directly. They usually aren't well-funded enough to provide legal beagles for members who are sued directly, and most of them are too busy waving their dicks around to cover their asses, seeing as most people aren't going to sue for discrimination or harassment or whatever state law allows over $15 a day or $25 a day or whatever. If you're an asshole with a law degree, I imagine you could probably make them find other things to do pretty damn quick just by starting up a few slapsuits.

    bone daddy on
    Rogue helicopter?
    Ecoterrorism is actually the single largest terrorist threat at the moment. They don't usually kill people, but they blow up or set on fire very expensive things.
  • Options
    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Richy wrote:
    moniker wrote:
    Richy wrote:
    Who gave these people power to make rules and charge fines anyway?

    Themselves. Yeah, they're that fucked up.

    So what's preventing you from telling them to fuck off? If some guys came around and told me they were fining me $15 because of some ridiculous rule they made up, of all the things I would give them, $15 would be the last one.

    Because you agreed to give them the authority over you when you bought the house. Shinto went into it better, but neighborhood associations get their legal authority from the neighborhood itself and your contract. I was mainly talking about the assholes on the committee or whatever who make rules up and then choose to enforce them.

    moniker on
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    ALocksly wrote:
    here

    or here(this one loads kinda slow)
    Changes in Colorado law in 2005 prevent homeowners' associations from prohibiting a number of actions, including display of the American flag, display of a service flag and display of a political sign meant to influence an election.

    However, the law does not keep these associations from prohibiting other types of displays. The sign restrictions quoted to Jensen were in force during her presidency.
    So, am I the only one who thinks this sounds like it's potentially an equal protection/first amendment violation? They're protecting some speech, but not other speech, based entirely on content. It's like a de facto restriction on speech.

    I don't know, though. She should probably call the ACLU.

    Thanatos on
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    TankHammerTankHammer Atlanta Ghostbuster Atlanta, GARegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I've heard reference to the peace sign representing an inverted cross like the one that Peter was crucified on (not Satanic actually, he just refused to die like Jesus Christ since he didn't want to be directly compared to the guy). Of course all of this is basically myth.

    Most "Satanic" symbols are just leftover, adapted pagan symbols. It's a lot easier to burn a "Satanist" at the stake than some innocent druid nature-lover.

    Honestly Satanists are just Christians cheering for the other side. They pretty much follow the same history and teachings of the Christian faiths, just inverted.

    If you're going to persecute someone for something, do it directly. Obviously the woman putting a peace sign and a wreath on her door is not worshiping the devil, as most people haven't related those symbols to an evil meaning since the dark ages. They should have just said "We don't like that you don't conform to our extremely Christian, Conservative and reactionary society so we're going to fine you for being different."
    It'd make the lawsuit so much less of a headache.

    TankHammer on
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    HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I am astounded...astounded...that homeowners associations are even allowed to exist in this day and age. The sheer fact that people pay these assholes to regulate everything about their home just floors me. I am further amazed that these organizations can have someone evicted from their own home, change their rules on the fly and not even be obligated to inform the home owner.

    Thankfully my house isn't located in an area affected by a homeowner's association, but most (all?) new homes built here in Phoenix have them. How are people not seeing the problem here? Paying some psychotic organization to micro-manage everything about the exterior of your home and giving them a ridiculous amount of power in the process? Why? Was having someone's '64 Impala rusting in their carport really that much of an eyesore?

    I hope to god these things get shut down countrywide.

    Halfmex on
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Richy wrote:
    Shinto wrote:
    moniker wrote:
    Richy wrote:
    Who gave these people power to make rules and charge fines anyway?

    Themselves. Yeah, they're that fucked up.

    Not really. At some point the owner of a parcel of land opted into the home owners association. The deed was then altered to give the HOA some legal standing. Whoever bought the house from the first person inherited the legal obligations outlined in the deed.

    Can't the deed be altered again?

    I don't know. It seems like it should be able to be altered, but property law can be a little weird.

    Shinto on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I've heard reference to the peace sign representing an inverted cross like the one that Peter was crucified on (not Satanic actually, he just refused to die like Jesus Christ since he didn't want to be directly compared to the guy). Of course all of this is basically myth.

    Most "Satanic" symbols are just leftover, adapted pagan symbols. It's a lot easier to burn a "Satanist" at the stake than some innocent druid nature-lover.

    Honestly Satanists are just Christians cheering for the other side. They pretty much follow the same history and teachings of the Christian faiths, just inverted.

    If you're going to persecute someone for something, do it directly. Obviously the woman putting a peace sign and a wreath on her door is not worshiping the devil, as most people haven't related those symbols to an evil meaning since the dark ages. They should have just said "We don't like that you don't conform to our extremely Christian, Conservative and reactionary society so we're going to fine you for being different."
    It'd make the lawsuit so much less of a headache.

    Most the "satanic" influences were invented in recent years. The Pentagram for instance was used very often by Christians in the middle ages. Sir Gawain, the most pious knight in the king Arthur stories, even used it as his coat of arms. it was a pagan symbol but one that was already adopted into a Chistian mindset

    nexuscrawler on
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    PataPata Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    They've managed to piss off the entire politcal spectrum. :lol:

    Bi-partisian issue.

    The Homeowner's Asscoations must be destroyed.

    Pata on
    SRWWSig.pngEpisode 5: Mecha-World, Mecha-nisim, Mecha-beasts
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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Richy wrote:
    Shinto wrote:
    moniker wrote:
    Richy wrote:
    Who gave these people power to make rules and charge fines anyway?

    Themselves. Yeah, they're that fucked up.

    Not really. At some point the owner of a parcel of land opted into the home owners association. The deed was then altered to give the HOA some legal standing. Whoever bought the house from the first person inherited the legal obligations outlined in the deed.

    Can't the deed be altered again?

    Yes, but the Homeowners association owns those rights layed out in the deed, so you would have to get their consent.

    Imagine this. I sell you a house, but retain the right to use the garrage for whatever legal purpose I want. If you sell the house, you cant sell my rights to use the garrage for whatever purpose I want because I own those rights and you dont. So if you sell the house to Yar, then Yar cant stop me from using the garrage for whatever purpose I want. I could also sell you a house and stipulate in the deed that you could not tear down the garrage. In that you owned all the rights except the right to tear down the garrage. If you did tear down the garrage, i would have the right to place a lean on your property[I.E. you would owe me money backed by the property]

    The exact same thing happens for homeowners associations, the HA is a legal entity that owns specific useage rights[these are rights dealing with using/doing something or rights dealing with not allowing the owner to use/do something] in all or many of the properties of which it operates.

    Depending on the wording of the deed this can grant extraordinary powers to the HA.


    So you would have to buy the rights back from the HA, rights that might not be for sale.

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    I hate that shit so much.

    Shinto on
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    PataPata Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    So basicly we need a court to abolish them.

    Pata on
    SRWWSig.pngEpisode 5: Mecha-World, Mecha-nisim, Mecha-beasts
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