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Infinite Crisis kind of sucks

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    DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator, Administrator admin
    edited November 2006
    I wanted to like Infinite Crisis, but a lot of the moments a lot of people thought were awesome, like when Batman made his "when you were DEAD" crack in the beginning or when Joker shot Luthor at the end, didn't do anything for me. If anything, I liked them less than most of the things in the miniseries.

    DJ Eebs on
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    Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Geebs wrote:
    Joker shot Luthor at the end, didn't do anything for me. If anything, I liked them less than most of the things in the miniseries.

    Aww c'mon!

    "You didn't let the Joker play"

    That was fucking awesome Geebs! You liked it damnit and you know. I masturbate to those last few panels everynight for christ sakes.

    And a 'funiverse'? Maybe we can have Wolverine there there too, but instead of of metal claws, tasty candy canes fly out of his hands!
    Fuck I love Keith.

    So God damn much.

    Hey hey. Watch it. He's a Wii slut. His Mii is making a mess out of my Mii plaza.

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    Garlic BreadGarlic Bread i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a Registered User, Disagreeable regular
    edited November 2006
    Bad Karma wrote:
    Fuck I love Keith.

    So God damn much.

    Hey hey. Watch it. He's a Wii slut. His Mii is making a mess out of my Mii plaza.

    vhappy.gif

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    FuruFuru Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Rociel wrote:
    I'm in favour of the return of the multiverse so long as they have the "funiverse". It's inhabited by Young Justice and the JLI.

    I'm rolling my eyes so hard that there's no emoticon large enough to properly express it.

    Furu on
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    laughterkillsmelaughterkillsme Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Kenoyer130, Right on the money.


    Infinite Crisis could have been so much more than it was, and its a shame.

    laughterkillsme on
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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    man, bringing the multiverse back would be a disaster.

    A funiverse is also a terrible idea.

    "HEY ROBIN! WE JUST GOT BACK FROM KOOEY KOOEY KOOEY WHERE WE BEAT MATCH BY SHOWERING HIM WITH RAINBOWS AND CANDY!"

    "THAT'S AWESOME, SECRET! BWA HA HA!"

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    FuruFuru Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    man, bringing the multiverse back would be a disaster.

    I don't see why.

    Marvel has a few million alternate universes and it does fine.

    Furu on
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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Furu wrote:
    man, bringing the multiverse back would be a disaster.

    I don't see why.

    Marvel has a few million alternate universes and it does fine.
    because Marvel didn't spend two decades establishing a single earth universe. when the earth's collapsed, there were plenty of stories that still could have happened, that were still perfectly viable. Splitting everything up again, the same can't be said. Now, we have a New Earth where the JSA and the All-Stars are a vital piece of history, for example. Making a new multiverse gets rid of that, if they're just going to plop them all back on Earth 2.

    I mean, if it's executed well, it will work. But DC's proven, no matter how much I like Crisis and the minis that spun into it, that it's much better at having ideas than executing them.

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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    A funiverse is also a terrible idea.

    "HEY ROBIN! WE JUST GOT BACK FROM KOOEY KOOEY KOOEY WHERE WE BEAT MATCH BY SHOWERING HIM WITH RAINBOWS AND CANDY!"

    "THAT'S AWESOME, SECRET! BWA HA HA!"

    Yeah, I love my fun and all, but a universe dedicated to it? Not so much. The "fun" characters I'm so fond of usually worked best when they were contrasting with the other characters of the DCU. Unfortunately, at some point the writers decided to start injecting all the other dark drama and stuff into said fun characters, killing any contrast they had.

    Munch on
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    Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Well then, I guess the only solution is to stop buying comics all together, and just continue to reread the same ones over and over in a monthly fashion.

    Still though, Wolverine with candy cane claws.

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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    You suggest I stop buying comics like eight times a week. Pretty much anytime I bring up my problem with DC killing off their funny characters to darken up their universe and make it more "mature" in fact. But the thing is, I still like a lot of stuff they're doing. I'm still enjoying Aquaman, Shadowpact, Connor Hawke: DB, 52, and plenty of other stuff. But Infinite Crisis pretty much sucked millions of cocks.

    Munch on
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    Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Munch wrote:
    You suggest I stop buying comics like eight times a week. Pretty much anytime I bring up my problem with DC killing off their funny characters to darken up their universe and make it more "mature" in fact. But the thing is, I still like a lot of stuff they're doing. I'm still enjoying Aquaman, Shadowpact, Connor Hawke: DB, 52, and plenty of other stuff. But Infinite Crisis pretty much sucked millions of cocks.

    Munch, you need to stop focusing on the negative. Do you have a Wii? We canbe buddies.

    And I made this for my last post, but you beat me to it.

    funtimes.jpg
    Munch wrote:
    You suggest I stop buying comics like eight times a week. Pretty much anytime I bring up my problem with DC killing off their funny characters to darken up their universe and make it more "mature" in fact.

    To be fair Munch, you sometimes bring it up 8 times a week, but if it bothers you, I'll stop. Then we can be friends and jerk off our dicks to some Shadowpact, or maybe Freedom Fighters.

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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Man, Wolverine with a candy-laced skeleton would be the sweetest there is at what he does.

    Conditional_Axe on
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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Bad Karma wrote:
    To be fair Munch, you sometimes bring it up 8 times a week, but if it bothers you, I'll stop. Then we can be friends and jerk off our dicks to some Shadowpact, or maybe Freedom Fighters.

    You will always be my special Graphic Violence friend. Just so long as you don't forget how to work that pretty mouth. I'm just still in a bad mood after reading this:
    My theoretical comic company, which, for the theoretical purposes of my theoretical memoir, I’ll call Gilgongo! Comix, was tired of being “pushed around” in the sales wars and in the court of fanboy opinion (such as it was). So with all the red-nosed gumption and determination of Ralphie from “A Christmas Story” Gilgongo! Comix decided to go badass.

    They needed a rape. Because there’s nothing quite so badass as rape, lets face it. And the victim couldn’t been from the usual suspects: “The Black Raven” (done that already plus ovaries ripped out), “Bondage Queen” (wasn’t she raped like every issue--at least mentally?), “Demon-Girl” (she was already paralyzed from the last pseudo-raping and that provided all sorts of logistical nightmares for the artist).

    No, they had to find the most innocent, virginal, good-natured “nice” character they could find and ravage her not once but twice.

    Theoretically, this character’s name was Vicki Victim.

    A whole groundbreaking limited series would be built around Vicki Victim’s rape and murder.

    This made me nervous. In the office, I was known as being innocent, virginal, good-natured, and “nice”. I was kidded on it on a regular basis, as well as being told it was exactly those qualities that were “holding me back.”

    Of course, it was silly to identify with a dumb old comic character.

    Vicki Victim’s fate was sealed in a Gilgongo! Comics confab in which we explored how we could change our comics to be more “badass.” It was decided that the reason we were trailing in sales was because we were “too good-natured and nice.” This would have to stop. Our books needed a grittier edge. We needed a grittier edge.

    So our books changed. There was rape, and murder, torture, death, and mutiliation. Superheroes did amoral or outright evil things and the line between good and bad was blurred.
    “The rape pages are in!”

    The Rape Pages. There is something almost festive about the way the phrase rolls off your tongue.

    In the Rape Pages Vicki Victim, who was chosen as the theoretical sacrificial lamb for the theoretical Gilgongo! Comics’s sea change from “too nice” to “badass," was being raped by a supervillain. The artist would later tell me that drawing those pages made him feel ill.

    That's a former DC employee, or someone who claims to be in a "theoretical" sense, like OJ Simpson's "If I Did It" book was theoretical, relating the rationale behind DC's decision to systematically kill off or fuck up any character too lighthearted. There's more here if anyone cares to read, but the whole story, which also includes misogyny in the workplace and a broken vagina, just sort of turned my stomach a bit.

    Munch on
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    Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Do the ladies at Marvel just not care?

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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I think Gail Simone actually once said in an interview that one of the reasons she left Marvel and now primarily works at DC was due to Marvel's poor work enviroment for women.

    Munch on
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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    surely, this is a true chronicling of events, totally free from bias.

    I will say, however, that the issue of misogyny in comics is an important one, a conversation needs to occur on a wide scale regarding it.

    Having said that, I will also say that bad things happening to women in comics does not make them anti-feminist or anything like that. At least, not all of them.

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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I agree that writing bad stuff happening to women doesn't make you a misogynist, just like writing bad things happening to white, black, hispanic, etc. people when you don't belong to that race makes you a racist. But I'm sickened by the idea that DC would use rape sheerly for the sensationalist value to move books, and purposefully cut a swatch through its "nice" characters just to be more like the boys across town, especially when Marvel is still beating them in sales.

    Munch on
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    hughtronhughtron __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    It's because rape and death and grim and gritty sells.

    hughtron on
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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    a good 80% of editorial decisions are made to sell books, if not more.

    it's rare that you see an 'issues' issue that isn't solely for sensationalist ends. This week's Robin is a good example of that minority, by the way.

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    Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    hughtron wrote:
    It's because rape and death and grim and gritty sells.

    But it's a double edged sword my friend, often times, and I know it's hard to understand, but 'lighthearted fun' books don't always sell either.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited November 2006
    Munch wrote:
    I think Gail Simone actually once said in an interview that one of the reasons she left Marvel and now primarily works at DC was due to Marvel's poor work enviroment for women.

    She did, but she also qualifies it with 'but I haven't worked there for ages, so it might have changed'.

    Bogart on
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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Statment: If Grant Morrison were the one to have Sue raped and killed, nobody would be complaining about it right now.

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    Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Bogart wrote:
    Munch wrote:
    I think Gail Simone actually once said in an interview that one of the reasons she left Marvel and now primarily works at DC was due to Marvel's poor work enviroment for women.

    She did, but she also qualifies it with 'but I haven't worked there for ages, so it might have changed'.

    It hasn't. Stan Lee still requires his morning, noon and night blowjobs.

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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Bogart wrote:
    Munch wrote:
    I think Gail Simone actually once said in an interview that one of the reasons she left Marvel and now primarily works at DC was due to Marvel's poor work enviroment for women.

    She did, but she also qualifies it with 'but I haven't worked there for ages, so it might have changed'.
    She's the only female author I can think of that has had any real longevity at the House of Ideas lately.

    Avery did Arana, and how long did that last? She also rode in on JMS's coattails.

    Tamora Pierce will likely vanish once White Tiger is done. Grayson did that terrible Ghost Rider mini and that's all.

    Outside of Simone and Louise Simonson, I'm drawing a real blank.

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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Bad Karma wrote:
    hughtron wrote:
    It's because rape and death and grim and gritty sells.

    But it's a double edged sword my friend, often times, and I know it's hard to understand, but 'lighthearted fun' books don't always sell either.

    Here's the thing. I don't think a book being lighthearted or um.. darkhearted (?) alone will sell a book. The content, creative team, starring character(s), and quality will. Green Arrow, Blue Beetle, Firestorm, and Robin have all been doing around 35k at best in sales, and 19-20k at worst lately, even though they've had an HIV positive character starring, a guy get shot and crippled, an abusive one-armed father (okay I've only read the first few issues of Firestorm so I have no idea what's going on in there lately so feel free to discount this), and an ally turning evil and murdering people. I Can't Believe It's Not the Justice League? 40k+ on every issue, without any major pushes, tie-ins, or OYL-style events to promote it. The problem is that, from where I'm standing, DC editorial seems to keep making blanket statements that fun doesn't sell, ever, ever, ever, and using the very experimental Plastic Man book to justify that statement. They seem to forget that Young Justice and JLI both outsold a lot of the other books being offered at the time they were being published.
    Statment: If Grant Morrison were the one to have Sue raped and killed, nobody would be complaining about it right now.

    Doubtful. Fans of every medium love to bitch about stuff. Right now I'm sure people are bitching about Prison Break, Lost, the newest R.A. Salvatore or George R.R. Martin books, or the startling turn that's taken place in Garfield. Plus, Morrison hopefully wouldn't have done it in such an obviously exploitative way, and due to his large background in groundbreaking comics, would have likely been extended a bit more good will. But hell, I didn't really even like Morrison up until a few months ago when I read some Seven Soldiers.

    Munch on
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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    My point is necessarily not Morrison's specific cachet here, but rather that Meltzer has none. I'm not pointing a finger at you, here, Munch, but he's got a lot less insulation to fanboy rage because he was an unknown quantity.

    like that dr. phosphorus story in 'tec last month. had dini written it, it would have been reviewed a bit kinder. it still would not have been up to standard, for sure, but when you have who-the-fuck-is-royal-mcgraw writing the book, the gloves come off.

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    Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    My point is necessarily not Morrison's specific cachet here, but rather that Meltzer has none. I'm not pointing a finger at you, here, Munch, but he's got a lot less insulation to fanboy rage because he was an unknown quantity.

    like that dr. phosphorus story in 'tec last month. had dini written it, it would have been reviewed a bit kinder. it still would not have been up to standard, for sure, but when you have who-the-fuck-is-royal-mcgraw writing the book, the gloves come off.

    Thats a good point, considering that if Morrison, Moore, or any other "jerk dicks off" writer wrote, or if Alex Ross drew it..(mmm)..response would be a lot different.

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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Bad Karma wrote:
    My point is necessarily not Morrison's specific cachet here, but rather that Meltzer has none. I'm not pointing a finger at you, here, Munch, but he's got a lot less insulation to fanboy rage because he was an unknown quantity.

    like that dr. phosphorus story in 'tec last month. had dini written it, it would have been reviewed a bit kinder. it still would not have been up to standard, for sure, but when you have who-the-fuck-is-royal-mcgraw writing the book, the gloves come off.

    Thats a good point, considering that if Morrison, Moore, or any other "jerk dicks off" writer wrote, or if Alex Ross drew it..(mmm)..response would be a lot different.
    Alex Ross would cut his wrists before drawing Dr. Light raping Sue Dibny. At the very most, he would have Light confine her in a Light-themed trap.

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    Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Bad Karma wrote:
    My point is necessarily not Morrison's specific cachet here, but rather that Meltzer has none. I'm not pointing a finger at you, here, Munch, but he's got a lot less insulation to fanboy rage because he was an unknown quantity.

    like that dr. phosphorus story in 'tec last month. had dini written it, it would have been reviewed a bit kinder. it still would not have been up to standard, for sure, but when you have who-the-fuck-is-royal-mcgraw writing the book, the gloves come off.

    Thats a good point, considering that if Morrison, Moore, or any other "jerk dicks off" writer wrote, or if Alex Ross drew it..(mmm)..response would be a lot different.
    Alex Ross would cut his wrists before drawing Dr. Light raping Sue Dibny. At the very most, he would have Light confine her in a Light-themed trap.

    Oh I know he wouldn't do it, as he's very picky when it comes to what he draws..(i.e. He draws what he wants to draw, and thank christ for that) but imagine the photo referencing? Yikes.

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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Bad Karma wrote:
    Bad Karma wrote:
    My point is necessarily not Morrison's specific cachet here, but rather that Meltzer has none. I'm not pointing a finger at you, here, Munch, but he's got a lot less insulation to fanboy rage because he was an unknown quantity.

    like that dr. phosphorus story in 'tec last month. had dini written it, it would have been reviewed a bit kinder. it still would not have been up to standard, for sure, but when you have who-the-fuck-is-royal-mcgraw writing the book, the gloves come off.

    Thats a good point, considering that if Morrison, Moore, or any other "jerk dicks off" writer wrote, or if Alex Ross drew it..(mmm)..response would be a lot different.
    Alex Ross would cut his wrists before drawing Dr. Light raping Sue Dibny. At the very most, he would have Light confine her in a Light-themed trap.

    Oh I know he wouldn't do it, as he's very picky when it comes to what he draws..(i.e. He draws what he wants to draw, and thank christ for that) but imagine the photo referencing? Yikes.
    he'd probably use his mom as Sue....which makes me cringe.

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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    My point is necessarily not Morrison's specific cachet here, but rather that Meltzer has none. I'm not pointing a finger at you, here, Munch, but he's got a lot less insulation to fanboy rage because he was an unknown quantity.

    Oh, I agree. Hence my:
    Munch wrote:
    due to his large background in groundbreaking comics, would have likely been extended a bit more good will.

    I'm sure it didn't help Meltzer that, after he wrote Identity Crisis, a bunch of fans were basically like, "Who the fuck is this novelist jerk-off who's swaggering in here and fucking with my favorite characters? Who the fuck is he to kill off Firestorm?" I think he's also had a lot of ire directed at him for kicking off kind of a massive attempt by DC and Marvel to go hunting for novelists and screenwriters to work on comics.

    Let me also say that I enjoyed a lot of Identity Crisis, but the rape came off as being in very poor taste and not really serving the story, and I think the follow-up from the mini wasn't all that great, like the Luthor suit story in Teen Titans, the Flash villains all still really being evil, Bolt never getting any follow up post-shooting, and so on.

    The rape thing really bothers me because it seems like such a common way to get a cheap shock out of the audience, and it shouldn't be. Fuck, even that sprite webcomic that got lampooned by PA ages ago, A Modest Destiny, used rape (well specifically attempted child rape) to darken itself up and get all serious. Same thing happened over in some godawful snout-faced anime webcomic called Dominic Deegan. Only then it was orc rape, and the dude doing the raping was a hero.

    Munch on
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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    you know what comic had plenty of rape? League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

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    Garlic BreadGarlic Bread i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a Registered User, Disagreeable regular
    edited November 2006
    like that dr. phosphorus story in 'tec last month. had dini written it, it would have been reviewed a bit kinder. it still would not have been up to standard, for sure, but when you have who-the-fuck-is-royal-mcgraw writing the book, the gloves come off.

    I don't care about the argument you guys are having

    but that issue was awful

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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Keith wrote:
    like that dr. phosphorus story in 'tec last month. had dini written it, it would have been reviewed a bit kinder. it still would not have been up to standard, for sure, but when you have who-the-fuck-is-royal-mcgraw writing the book, the gloves come off.

    I don't care about the argument you guys are having

    but that issue was awful
    it really was. but, i mean, it was a doctor phosphorus story.

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    Garlic BreadGarlic Bread i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a Registered User, Disagreeable regular
    edited November 2006
    The art was terrible, too. It was like they took a photo of faces, hit the stylize filter in Photoshop, and put an outline around it.

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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Keith wrote:
    The art was terrible, too. It was like they took a photo of faces, hit the stylize filter in Photoshop, and put an outline around it.
    Dini's too good to be writing an ongoing. He brings out the flaws in any fill-in.

    At least with Batman, they have the intelligence to give the fill in story to a really good creative team. Hell, even if they had Fucko McNobody write it, they'd still have Mandrake drawing Batman.

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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    you know what comic had plenty of rape? League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

    Alan Moore's comics in general always have a lot of sexual stuff in them, and an unnerving amount of rape/sexual assault of varying degrees.

    Off the top of my head: [spoiler:b5c64906a4]-Sally Jupiter's rape [Watchmen]
    -Invisible Man raping schoolgirls (or was it nuns or something?) [LoEG]
    -Mina Murray's near-rape at the hands of the opium addicts [LoEG]
    -Mina Murray's humiliation and forced, "I'm a tart," at the hands of Invisible Man [LoEG]
    -Invisible Man's rape at the hands of Mr. Hyde [LoEG]
    -Sidekicks being molested by their partners [Top Ten]
    -Hookers being murdered [Top Ten and From Hell]
    -Captain Marvel/Mary Marvel incest [unplublished Twilight of the Superheroes]
    -Kid Miracleman's rape [Miracleman]
    -Evee being forced into prostitution [V for Vendetta]
    -Evee almost being raped by police/fingermen [V for Vendetta]
    -Pedophilic priest [V for Vendetta]
    -Barbara Gordon being stripped/possibly raped by Joker [The Killing Joke]
    -Anton Arcane possessing Abby Cable's husband's body and having sex with her, which is kind of rapey [Swamp Thing][/spoiler:b5c64906a4]

    Damn Alan.

    Munch on
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    Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Lost Girls. Don't forget Lost Girls.

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    FuruFuru Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I'm trying to.

    Furu on
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