As someone who is attracted to larger women, my whole stance on this issue would lie very closely to what Triple B said.
There are unattractive people of all sizes. I get very irritated when people assume that fat != attractive. This is important because I find a lot of the negativity towards overweight people is due to this general consensus. Like someone else has said, being overweight has become one of the last few acceptable traits that it is widely accepted and encouraged to be made fun of. I am in support of making this something that no longer is. It affects people I know and love, and also myself.
I have mixed feelings on whether overweight people should be given rights similar to those with obvious illness and disease. People here can attest that your weight is certainly something you can change, but I know that for some (a minority of) people it is not possible or something that is very difficult to do. By giving those very few people rights, you would have to give everyone them. That, I would have a problem with since those undeserving of the rights would obviously abuse them, but it doesn't really leave a simple answer to this issue.
I have refrained from popping in on similar discussions I have have a pretty unique and probably unpopular opinion on anything related to this topic. Also I'm not used to writing for D&D so it took me forever to write this post haha.
Also, unlike Windbit, I am comfortable with my preference and would be pleased if I could bring my perspective to the table if there is interest.
Triple B said that it's perfectly fine to lack basic self control because you were raised by wolves, and that we should show compassion to those who are immobile because not biting something near their mouth is too hard.
I'm not sure PA is the right place for someone like you. Perhaps try 4cha....chairs. Yes. Try 4 chairs and pick which one suits you best.
We didn't necessarily choose to be fat, either. Maybe our parents didn't act like parents when we were very young. Maybe our dad never taught us to ride a bike or throw a football, or maybe we were never encouraged to go outside and play with other kids. Maybe our parents relied on food and video games to keep us occupied so they wouldn't have to pay attention. Circumstances vary.
Wolves, bad parents, same thing. My parents teaching me that it's a good idea to drive everywhere is a good idea, while their fault rather than mine, doesn't make me less of a bad driver or public menace.
Also, I've never seen you before, and I've been here a while, so I'd say that I probably know what belongs in D&D better than you.
You can jack up my mother's taxes because she's a fat middle-aged smoker right after you increase your own because you're a hard-drinking fast-driving college boy who thinks he's immortal. Or, you can just accept the fact that different people are drains on the system in different ways.
The infinitely higher insurance premiums I pay for being a 20-something male (and thus prone to hard drinking and fast driving) are a lot like a tax.
What gets me about this debate is always the "OH NOES TEH FATTIES ARE EATING UP ALL OF OUR HEALTH CARE MONIES WITH THEIR GIANT ALL-DEVOURING MOUTHS."
Sure, obesity is fairly firmly linked to increases in heart problems, etc. But last time I checked, tobacco was linked to various cancers, alcohol was linked to liver issues (among other things), and driving a motorcycle? That shit will straight-up kill you. Yet in the countless variations on "oh man I got so drunk last night and did this CUH-RAAAAZY shit" stories people relate in the Strange/Embarrassing/Awesome Moments threads, I don't think I've ever seen anybody say "You alcohol abusers are so fucking irresponsible, that all-night binge probably shortened your life by six months and added $4,000 to our future health care costs, it's your stupid drunken fault that you didn't have the willpower to refrain from making a choice that hurts everybody else!" Similarly, we've had threads about riding motorcycles, but I don't recall any thread-crashers in there screaming "How dare you jack up health care costs for everyone else by riding your stupid donorcycle, I hope you don't take anyone else with you when you get into a horrible accident and waste thousands of dollars of taxpayer money in the ER before you die!"
But man, as soon as somebody's just fat, it's their fault and their choice and they're ruining our health care system singlehandedly and God, it's just so unfair that us Greek-god-bodied taxpayers need to foot the quadruple bypass bill so Fatty McLardass can keep shoving entire pounds of bacon into his mouth, abloo bloo bloo.
You can jack up my mother's taxes because she's a fat middle-aged smoker right after you increase your own because you're a hard-drinking fast-driving college boy who thinks he's immortal. Or, you can just accept the fact that different people are drains on the system in different ways.
The main difference is that it takes a high amount of consistency to get fat. As Groucho said "and I love my cigar, but I take it out once in a while." It's that, except replace the woman's husband's sausage with Italian or Polish sausage (unless her husband was Italian or Polish, of course).
But man, as soon as somebody's just fat, it's their fault and their choice and they're ruining our health care system singlehandedly and God, it's just so unfair that us Greek-god-bodied taxpayers need to foot the quadruple bypass bill so Fatty McLardass can keep shoving entire pounds of bacon into his mouth, abloo bloo bloo.
Yep. I notice this too.
Alternatively, the skinny folk are just really really concerned about the health of the fat folk and are just shaming them into losing weight (because that totally works!)
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
You can jack up my mother's taxes because she's a fat middle-aged smoker right after you increase your own because you're a hard-drinking fast-driving college boy who thinks he's immortal. Or, you can just accept the fact that different people are drains on the system in different ways.
The infinitely higher insurance premiums I pay for being a 20-something male (and thus prone to hard drinking and fast driving) are a lot like a tax.
I'll false premise you - you're talking about car insurance, which is another kettle of fish altogether. Car insurance is optional. Nobody needs to drive. I'm talking about health care costs, and even if you factor private health insurance into it, I'm pretty sure it would be cheaper for you than for my mom. (Well, aside from the fact that she lives in Canada and has no income, so she doesn't pay a red cent for her monthly heart problems anyway in any form).
The main difference is that it takes a high amount of consistency to get fat. As Groucho said "and I love my cigar, but I take it out once in a while." It's that, except replace the woman's husband's sausage with Italian or Polish sausage (unless her husband was Italian or Polish, of course).
It also takes quite a bit of consistency to develop lung cancer, or cirrhosis of the liver. I'm not saying there's no element of choice involved, because there absolutely is. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of blaming fat people for increasing health care costs, but turning a blind eye to smokers, drinkers, fugu afficionados, BASE jumpers, firemen, and anyone else who has a higher-than-average likelihood of draining our precious health care dollars.
When I was fat, i played about four sports and was pretty active. I was 5'2" and 239 pounds.
I'm now 5'6" and 158 with a good chunk of muscle.
I think I got more shit as a fat person which is why I decided to change my habits.
But I also was able to do it much easier because instead of people coming up to me and saying, "go out and exercise you fat piece of shit" (on second thought, I got that a lot, even though I was physically active), I had friends who asked me, "hey, wanna go on a run with me? I'll go at your pace."
Guilting or shaming someone who eats like that is only going to make them feel like shit and consequently eat even more. I've seen it and I've done it.
But I must've gotten crap from students, teachers, people who hired me, what have you on a regular basis. And oh, do they love to stare.
If we're trying to get people to be healthier, then who other than government is going to step in and make the kind of changes that would be likely to help?
No for-profit enterprise busy making money off people's overconsumption is going to actively discourage it, and there are too many individuals believe that it is singularly an issue of self-control. I just don't think the will exists in the general public for a grass-roots movement.
But to be honest, I just don't see things changing soon, if ever. Most of the things that exacerbate this problem are too deeply ingrained into American culture for it to change in the near term.
I suppose I'm just being a stupid government-hating anarchist or something but it seems to me that trying to solve this through policy and legislation is probably a poor approach.
Perhaps.
At the very least we can start by getting rid of the damn corn subsidies.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
You can jack up my mother's taxes because she's a fat middle-aged smoker right after you increase your own because you're a hard-drinking fast-driving college boy who thinks he's immortal. Or, you can just accept the fact that different people are drains on the system in different ways.
The infinitely higher insurance premiums I pay for being a 20-something male (and thus prone to hard drinking and fast driving) are a lot like a tax.
I'll false premise you - you're talking about car insurance, which is another kettle of fish altogether. Car insurance is optional. Nobody needs to drive. I'm talking about health care costs, and even if you factor private health insurance into it, I'm pretty sure it would be cheaper for you than for my mom. (Well, aside from the fact that she lives in Canada and has no income, so she doesn't pay a red cent for her monthly heart problems anyway in any form).
The main difference is that it takes a high amount of consistency to get fat. As Groucho said "and I love my cigar, but I take it out once in a while." It's that, except replace the woman's husband's sausage with Italian or Polish sausage (unless her husband was Italian or Polish, of course).
It also takes quite a bit of consistency to develop lung cancer, or cirrhosis of the liver. I'm not saying there's no element of choice involved, because there absolutely is. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of blaming fat people for increasing health care costs, but turning a blind eye to smokers, drinkers, fugu afficionados, BASE jumpers, firemen, and anyone else who has a higher-than-average likelihood of draining our precious health care dollars.
Where I'm from, car insurance is required. We also look down upon smokers (although this is mainly due to 2nd and 3rd hand smoke), drunkards, and idiots (base jumpers). We only really look up to firemen because they're accepting the consequences, kind of like how Christians like Jesus (although I, as a Jew, think that three days for all of humanity's sins stinks of nepotism).
I suppose I'm just being a stupid government-hating anarchist or something but it seems to me that trying to solve this through policy and legislation is probably a poor approach.
Perhaps.
At the very least we can start by getting rid of the damn corn subsidies.
This is just a fringe-benefit of that thing that needs to happen for a dozen other reasons anyway. Search posts by "Thanatos" containing the words "corn" for what I think of that.
You can jack up my mother's taxes because she's a fat middle-aged smoker right after you increase your own because you're a hard-drinking fast-driving college boy who thinks he's immortal. Or, you can just accept the fact that different people are drains on the system in different ways.
The infinitely higher insurance premiums I pay for being a 20-something male (and thus prone to hard drinking and fast driving) are a lot like a tax.
I'll false premise you - you're talking about car insurance, which is another kettle of fish altogether. Car insurance is optional. Nobody needs to drive. I'm talking about health care costs, and even if you factor private health insurance into it, I'm pretty sure it would be cheaper for you than for my mom. (Well, aside from the fact that she lives in Canada and has no income, so she doesn't pay a red cent for her monthly heart problems anyway in any form).
The main difference is that it takes a high amount of consistency to get fat. As Groucho said "and I love my cigar, but I take it out once in a while." It's that, except replace the woman's husband's sausage with Italian or Polish sausage (unless her husband was Italian or Polish, of course).
It also takes quite a bit of consistency to develop lung cancer, or cirrhosis of the liver. I'm not saying there's no element of choice involved, because there absolutely is. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of blaming fat people for increasing health care costs, but turning a blind eye to smokers, drinkers, fugu afficionados, BASE jumpers, firemen, and anyone else who has a higher-than-average likelihood of draining our precious health care dollars.
Where I'm from, car insurance is required. We also look down upon smokers (although this is mainly due to 2nd and 3rd hand smoke), drunkards, and idiots (base jumpers). We only really look up to firemen because they're accepting the consequences, kind of like how Christians like Jesus (although I, as a Jew, think that three days for all of humanity's sins stinks of nepotism).
Are you kidding me? Getting drunk is completely socially acceptable. Typically, someone who tells a tale of their drunken behavior gets a slap on the back or a "that was awesome." Yeah, alcoholism is looked down upon, but partying fri-sun sure as hell isn't - at least not in my lifetime.
Are you kidding me? Getting drunk is completely socially acceptable. Typically, someone who tells a tale of their drunken behavior gets a slap on the back or a "that was awesome." Yeah, alcoholism is looked down upon, but partying fri-sun sure as hell isn't - at least not in my lifetime.
Outside of college, partying fri-sun is alcoholism. You're exaggerating the acceptance of consuming alcohol tremendously. Enough so that I'm going to venture a guess that you're one of those temperance movement types.
You can jack up my mother's taxes because she's a fat middle-aged smoker right after you increase your own because you're a hard-drinking fast-driving college boy who thinks he's immortal. Or, you can just accept the fact that different people are drains on the system in different ways.
The infinitely higher insurance premiums I pay for being a 20-something male (and thus prone to hard drinking and fast driving) are a lot like a tax.
I'll false premise you - you're talking about car insurance, which is another kettle of fish altogether. Car insurance is optional. Nobody needs to drive. I'm talking about health care costs, and even if you factor private health insurance into it, I'm pretty sure it would be cheaper for you than for my mom. (Well, aside from the fact that she lives in Canada and has no income, so she doesn't pay a red cent for her monthly heart problems anyway in any form).
The main difference is that it takes a high amount of consistency to get fat. As Groucho said "and I love my cigar, but I take it out once in a while." It's that, except replace the woman's husband's sausage with Italian or Polish sausage (unless her husband was Italian or Polish, of course).
It also takes quite a bit of consistency to develop lung cancer, or cirrhosis of the liver. I'm not saying there's no element of choice involved, because there absolutely is. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of blaming fat people for increasing health care costs, but turning a blind eye to smokers, drinkers, fugu afficionados, BASE jumpers, firemen, and anyone else who has a higher-than-average likelihood of draining our precious health care dollars.
Where I'm from, car insurance is required. We also look down upon smokers (although this is mainly due to 2nd and 3rd hand smoke), drunkards, and idiots (base jumpers). We only really look up to firemen because they're accepting the consequences, kind of like how Christians like Jesus (although I, as a Jew, think that three days for all of humanity's sins stinks of nepotism).
Are you kidding me? Getting drunk is completely socially acceptable. Typically, someone who tells a tale of their drunken behavior gets a slap on the back or a "that was awesome." Yeah, alcoholism is looked down upon, but partying fri-sun sure as hell isn't - at least not in my lifetime.
Yes, but that's for one-time events. If there's any regularity even the people in the S&E thread tell you to try to watch it, and they're the type to say "that was awesome" to stories about explosive diarrhea, or as I believe it was once called 'burning brown anger from my backside." That's on top of the stereotype of regular drinkers being wife-beaters.
Are you kidding me? Getting drunk is completely socially acceptable. Typically, someone who tells a tale of their drunken behavior gets a slap on the back or a "that was awesome." Yeah, alcoholism is looked down upon, but partying fri-sun sure as hell isn't - at least not in my lifetime.
Outside of college, partying fri-sun is alcoholism. You're exaggerating the acceptance of consuming alcohol tremendously.
Alcoholism is hugely more accepted than you seem to think. When I got out of my own social bubble and met people (Families, adults) from elsewhere - I was shocked. Take a trip to the UK. I dont think you understand how true the statement is.
I used to tell people that I didnt "go large" at work functions because these were people I interacted with socially. I was mocked. By senior management. Because I didnt throw up at the christmas do.
The main difference is that it takes a high amount of consistency to get fat. As Groucho said "and I love my cigar, but I take it out once in a while." It's that, except replace the woman's husband's sausage with Italian or Polish sausage (unless her husband was Italian or Polish, of course).
It also takes quite a bit of consistency to develop lung cancer, or cirrhosis of the liver. I'm not saying there's no element of choice involved, because there absolutely is. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of blaming fat people for increasing health care costs, but turning a blind eye to smokers, drinkers, fugu afficionados, BASE jumpers, firemen, and anyone else who has a higher-than-average likelihood of draining our precious health care dollars.
I think you're overstating the point. I've seen smoking-related threads on this forum derailed on the health care dollars tangent, and the last thread I recall on mandatory seatbelt/helmet laws had at least a ten-page argument on the same topic. Just because people don't bring it up constantly doesn't mean they haven't thought about it.
You're also conflating drinking with alcoholism a bit there.
Hippie, nobody is really talking about how people got fat. This thread is mostly concerned with what you do once you're an adult and you realize "hey, I'm fat." Do you lobby for acceptance as a special class, or do you do something about it? I'm sorry, but your points aren't even remotely relative to this discourse.
Wait a minute.
I missed this before, but if you're not concerned with this, then what are you concerned with? How people get fat is by being taught unhealthy behaviors. That's how this shit works, that's how it happens. That seems to be one of the biggest reasons family studies see a relationship between fat families and fat children. We have to educate, as well as try to reduce the kind of judgmentalism that keeps fat people fat.
Hippie, nobody is really talking about how people got fat. This thread is mostly concerned with what you do once you're an adult and you realize "hey, I'm fat." Do you lobby for acceptance as a special class, or do you do something about it? I'm sorry, but your points aren't even remotely relative to this discourse.
Wait a minute.
I missed this before, but if you're not concerned with this, then what are you concerned with? How people get fat is by being taught unhealthy behaviors. That's how this shit works, that's how it happens. That seems to be one of the biggest reasons family studies see a relationship between fat families and fat children. We have to educate, as well as try to reduce the kind of judgmentalism that keeps fat people fat.
And knowing is half the battle!
Now all I need is a "now you know" rainbow being led by a star with manboobs.
I'm curious, is P.E in America a class where everybody just goes and does some arbitrary physical exercise with minimal explanation about why you're doing it?
This describes, precisely, what "physical education" was for me, in California public schools, in the late 80s and early 90s. And I don't think my experience was uncommon.
Same thing for me, same time periods, in British Columbia. After Grade 9 or 10 you didn't even have to take PE, and since I hated it, I quit.
Sure, obesity is fairly firmly linked to increases in heart problems, etc. But last time I checked, tobacco was linked to various cancers, alcohol was linked to liver issues (among other things), and driving a motorcycle? That shit will straight-up kill you. Yet in the countless variations on "oh man I got so drunk last night and did this CUH-RAAAAZY shit" stories people relate in the Strange/Embarrassing/Awesome Moments threads, I don't think I've ever seen anybody say "You alcohol abusers are so fucking irresponsible, that all-night binge probably shortened your life by six months and added $4,000 to our future health care costs, it's your stupid drunken fault that you didn't have the willpower to refrain from making a choice that hurts everybody else!" Similarly, we've had threads about riding motorcycles, but I don't recall any thread-crashers in there screaming "How dare you jack up health care costs for everyone else by riding your stupid donorcycle, I hope you don't take anyone else with you when you get into a horrible accident and waste thousands of dollars of taxpayer money in the ER before you die!"
It's inertia. 20 years ago smokers were socially protected. They're still socially protected in this forum, if nowhere else.
I'm curious, is P.E in America a class where everybody just goes and does some arbitrary physical exercise with minimal explanation about why you're doing it?
This describes, precisely, what "physical education" was for me, in California public schools, in the late 80s and early 90s. And I don't think my experience was uncommon.
Same thing for me, same time periods, in British Columbia. After Grade 9 or 10 you didn't even have to take PE, and since I hated it, I quit.
Confirmin' that this is what happened in Australia too.
I think it's important to understand the motivations behind such proposals.
There's evidence that there is a wage gap between overweight people and normal weight people. They can face discrimination in education. Doctors give less time to overweight and obese patients.
The proposals to define fat people as a protected class are an effort to curb these forms of discrimination. Whether or not they have a snowball's chance of hell of succeeding is of no interest to me - they might, on the local level, be able to get anti-fat-discrimination language written into municipal law as in San Francisco - but rather that it is a genuine attempt to fight a very real problem.
I'd be interested to know if the wage gap was higher than the increased premiums obese people are causing in the employer's health plan.
Fluffy, what is this huge expense and impossibility of covering nutrition in PE you're talking about?
I mean, really, what would you have to cover? Maybe everything in the H/A Fitness thread OP? If anything, less than that? Under 5000 words. You could easily cover that in the first few minutes of PE, and have plenty of time for testing and review.
The other thing to do is a fundamental change in how PE works. Instead of "here's some basketballs, now go play basketball" it should be focused on actually exercising the kids. "Here are some stretches." "Now, do some running." "Here are some body weight exercises." Even weightlifting could be taught to high school students.
As for "not being able to use it," how many high school students don't take care of any of their own meals? How many college students don't? I mean, would you object to teaching personal finance in high school because "the kids don't have any control over that, it's the parents?" I would say that that is one of the things that has led to our debt-centric society now. We need to teach this shit to kids because their parents aren't.
Hippie, nobody is really talking about how people got fat. This thread is mostly concerned with what you do once you're an adult and you realize "hey, I'm fat." Do you lobby for acceptance as a special class, or do you do something about it? I'm sorry, but your points aren't even remotely relative to this discourse.
Wait a minute.
I missed this before, but if you're not concerned with this, then what are you concerned with? How people get fat is by being taught unhealthy behaviors. That's how this shit works, that's how it happens. That seems to be one of the biggest reasons family studies see a relationship between fat families and fat children. We have to educate, as well as try to reduce the kind of judgmentalism that keeps fat people fat.
Well, the topic of the thread isn't "Why are people so goddamned fat?" It's "Fat Acceptance".
As someone who is attracted to larger women, my whole stance on this issue would lie very closely to what Triple B said.
There are unattractive people of all sizes. I get very irritated when people assume that fat != attractive. This is important because I find a lot of the negativity towards overweight people is due to this general consensus. Like someone else has said, being overweight has become one of the last few acceptable traits that it is widely accepted and encouraged to be made fun of. I am in support of making this something that no longer is. It affects people I know and love, and also myself.
I have mixed feelings on whether overweight people should be given rights similar to those with obvious illness and disease. People here can attest that your weight is certainly something you can change, but I know that for some (a minority of) people it is not possible or something that is very difficult to do. By giving those very few people rights, you would have to give everyone them. That, I would have a problem with since those undeserving of the rights would obviously abuse them, but it doesn't really leave a simple answer to this issue.
I have refrained from popping in on similar discussions I have have a pretty unique and probably unpopular opinion on anything related to this topic. Also I'm not used to writing for D&D so it took me forever to write this post haha.
Also, unlike Windbit, I am comfortable with my preference and would be pleased if I could bring my perspective to the table if there is interest.
Well, here's the thing. Some people are attracted to amputees, to the extent that they'll cut off functioning limbs. But the majority of people are instinctively repulsed by a self-maimed human being. Some of the discrimination obese people face is due to the same instinctual revulsion, confronted with a human being who has made themselves less able to compete, physically, because of an inability to control their caloric intake vs. their caloric output.
I'm curious, is P.E in America a class where everybody just goes and does some arbitrary physical exercise with minimal explanation about why you're doing it?
This describes, precisely, what "physical education" was for me, in California public schools, in the late 80s and early 90s. And I don't think my experience was uncommon.
Same thing for me, same time periods, in British Columbia. After Grade 9 or 10 you didn't even have to take PE, and since I hated it, I quit.
Confirmin' that this is what happened in Australia too.
PE at my school kicked arse. In year 10 we got to pick all the stuff we did (indoor soccer, european handball, the weights course and golf being the highlights). After year 10 most people quit but that's because it got a lot more learning oriented and really wasn't worth doing unless you wanted to get into physiotherapy or similar. My case is far from typical though I guess because it wasn't a public school and there weren't really any dickheads in my year who would give you shit if you sucked at something because they'd all managed to get expelled quite early.
Hippie, nobody is really talking about how people got fat. This thread is mostly concerned with what you do once you're an adult and you realize "hey, I'm fat." Do you lobby for acceptance as a special class, or do you do something about it? I'm sorry, but your points aren't even remotely relative to this discourse.
Wait a minute.
I missed this before, but if you're not concerned with this, then what are you concerned with? How people get fat is by being taught unhealthy behaviors. That's how this shit works, that's how it happens. That seems to be one of the biggest reasons family studies see a relationship between fat families and fat children. We have to educate, as well as try to reduce the kind of judgmentalism that keeps fat people fat.
Well, the topic of the thread isn't "Why are people so goddamned fat?" It's "Fat Acceptance".
People like you have already distributed blame, so I don't see what's so off-topic about distributing blame accurately.
Yeah, people like me, who've struggled with their weight their entire lives and found out that it's a matter of determining to live a healthy lifestyle and then actually doing it. Goddamn people like me.
Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
I went back through the thread for you, Hippie, and if necroSYS was distributing blame, I didn't see it. I'm not sure what you meant by people like him, but what Drez said is accurate. Many of us were interested in to what degree we ought to go out of our way to accommodate obese people, not how people became obese.
It really seems like Drez answered your question in the post that spawned your question.
Are you kidding me? Getting drunk is completely socially acceptable. Typically, someone who tells a tale of their drunken behavior gets a slap on the back or a "that was awesome." Yeah, alcoholism is looked down upon, but partying fri-sun sure as hell isn't - at least not in my lifetime.
Outside of college, partying fri-sun is alcoholism.
You're exaggerating the acceptance of consuming alcohol tremendously. Enough so that I'm going to venture a guess that you're one of those temperance movement types.
Yeah, people like me, who've struggled with their weight their entire lives and found out that it's a matter of determining to live a healthy lifestyle and then actually doing it. Goddamn people like me.
Sorry if I mistook you for somebody else.
PP: Problem is, understanding cause is part of how and why people are or are not going to accept, in whatever capacity deemed necessary, obesity. If people actually cared to understand that a large chunk of the obesity problem in America is simply learned behaviors, maybe they'd be a bit less cutthroat. Nobody wants to be fat. Nobody shoves cake down their gullet simply to get fat. It's only a choice if you consider your environment a choice.
Well, there are people out there who do want to be fat, but yeah, the majority are falling prey to learned behaviors and laziness.
But guess what? The awesome thing about being human is the ability to reason and to replaced bad learned behaviors (otherwise known as habits) with good ones.
So, I don't see how crying over the culture of fatness in America is going to bring everyone to a new dawn of acceptance of fat people. Yes, it's a problem. Yes, it's pervasive. But, yes, it's still up to you if you want to be healthy.
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Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
Yeah, people like me, who've struggled with their weight their entire lives and found out that it's a matter of determining to live a healthy lifestyle and then actually doing it. Goddamn people like me.
Sorry if I mistook you for somebody else.
PP: Problem is, understanding cause is part of how and why people are or are not going to accept, in whatever capacity deemed necessary, obesity. If people actually cared to understand that a large chunk of the obesity problem in America is simply learned behaviors, maybe they'd be a bit less cutthroat. Nobody wants to be fat. Nobody shoves cake down their gullet simply to get fat. It's only a choice if you consider your environment a choice.
I disagree with some of what you're saying here. I have trouble distinguishing between what you're saying and a total abdication of personal responsibility. But I don't want to get into that argument. If you think people should not be dicks to fat people, and I think people should not be dicks to fat people, and we discuss what being dicks mean, and arrive at a conclusion, that's as far as my interest in this topic goes at the moment.
We can discuss what's appropriate without discussing why people do inappropriate things or why they have the opportunity. We can even agree on what's appropriate without resolving our disagreement regarding fat people's responsibility / level of choice. Since what's appropriate wrt accepting and accommodating fat people is the topic of the thread, I feel justified in responding to your posts about the other stuff with "I don't care."
Well, there are people out there who do want to be fat, but yeah, the majority are falling prey to learned behaviors and laziness.
But guess what? The awesome thing about being human is the ability to reason and to replaced bad learned behaviors (otherwise known as habits) with good ones.
So, I don't see how crying over the culture of fatness in America is going to bring everyone to a new dawn of acceptance of fat people. Yes, it's a problem. Yes, it's pervasive. But, yes, it's still up to you if you want to be healthy.
Yes! Beautiful! Perfect! It absolutely is up to them!
But we're not going to give them the tools to take control by scoffing at their problem and treating them like they're less than people. Disseminating knowledge to fill the void we have in our society is the only way, and that's part of what fat acceptance means to me. It's a very simple dialogue: "Yes, we recognize that you've got bad habits you learned from your parents, that nobody told you about carbs and calories and such, but we're going to equip you so you can take control of this yourself!" The answer is not to say, simply, that "it's up to them" and leave it at that, while constantly blaming for what they are. That's half why people that are fat stay fat.
I think the claims of Fat Acceptance Activists are far more specific than the arguments we've outlined here. We seem to have come to a consensus that because being obese is closely associated with health problems, we should find ways to encourage healthy living and discourage being dicks to people about their weight. I don't think this is at all radical or that any reasonable person could object to this general plan; buuuut I don't think this is what fat activists want. To wit, Kate Harding of Shapely Prose claims: http://kateharding.net/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/
1. Weight itself is not a health problem, except in the most extreme cases (i.e., being underweight or so fat you’re immobilized).
2. Poor nutrition and a sedentary lifestyle do cause health problems, in people of all sizes.
3. no one has proven that fat people generally eat more or exercise less than thin people. Period.
4. Diets don’t work.
5-6. more anti-diet stuff (valiance's note)
7. Human beings deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Fat people are human beings.
8. Even fat people who are unhealthy still deserve dignity and respect. Still human beings. See how that works?
9. In any case, shaming teh fatties for being “unhealthy” doesn’t fucking help. If shame made people thin, there wouldn’t be a fat person in this country, trust me. I wish I could remember who said this, ’cause it’s one of my favorite quotes of all time: “You cannot hate people for their own good.”
10. If you scratch an article on the obesity! crisis! you will almost always find a press release from a company that’s developing a weight loss drug — or from a “research group” that’s funded by such companies.
I can't see anyone disagreeing with 7-9, but the rest are up for debate. For example we've basically all come to the conclusion that her first claim is false: weight itself IS a health problem. To say diets don't work is true in some cases but it can also obscure the fact that a healthy diet can and does work to help change body composition--in conjunction with exercise.
I think the most controversial claims of Fat Acceptance Activists can be summed up as: diet and exercise aren't going to keep everyone from being fat, and being overweight isn't a health problem in and of itself. Restated: there are plenty of healthy fat people who exercise and eat right.
I don't think reasonable people have a problem with the idea of not treating fat people like shit--we all agree on that already (how to get there is another story). We've sort of moved away from the fat activists themselves in our discussion of mechanics to eliminate fat people from existence (under the presumption that being fat is unhealthy). We haven't yet examined the claim that being fat is unhealthy. It's taken as axiomatic, and maybe it shouldn't be.
Long thread, so I'll get down to what I saw in the OP.
I don't expect people to specifically like me for being fat, for the same reason I wouldn't expect someone to specifically like me if I were black or a redhead or etc.
I don't expect special treatment. If insurance rates were to cost more for obese people, I will happily pay that bill.
But people shouldn't act like it's a goddamn personal offense to them if I'm fat. I don't give a shit if you're thin, don't give a shit if I'm fat.
Long thread, so I'll get down to what I saw in the OP.
I don't expect people to specifically like me for being fat, for the same reason I wouldn't expect someone to specifically like me if I were black or a redhead or etc.
I don't expect special treatment. If insurance rates were to cost more for obese people, I will happily pay that bill.
But people shouldn't act like it's a goddamn personal offense to them if I'm fat. I don't give a shit if you're thin, don't give a shit if I'm fat.
What do you think of people who ignore hygiene and develop an unpleasant odor?
edit: And being fat is nothing like being black or a redhead, I would love to know what the same reason is in that statement.
You can't smell fat. And provided I don't run through halls ramming into people, my weight is not making other people uncomfortable for any good reason (other than they can't stand the sight of me).
You can't smell fat. And provided I don't run through halls ramming into people, my weight is not making other people uncomfortable for any good reason (other than they can't stand the sight of me).
Nor can you see smell. So yes, I am comparing the two. It is neglect to health/hygiene. If you see someone who neglects their hygiene/health/weight and its unpleasant to your eyes, you can look away. If you smell someone who neglects their hygiene/health/smell and its unpleasant to your nose, you can breathe through your mouth.
People not being able to stand the sight of you is the same as people not being able to stand the smell of you. It's a matter of taste - what smells bad is a matter of opinion, what looks bad is a matter of opinion. Both are usually the result of neglect and they can be compared quite easily.
You think that your example of 'other than they can't stand the sight of me' differs from 'other than they can't stand the smell of me?' It doesn't.
Fuck that line of reasoning, many things are offensive to the eye, and there are many people I can't stand the sight of, even skinny ones. People also wear perfumes/deodorants that I might not like the smell of, but the point is that I'm not going to condemn anyone because of it.
EDIT: What you seem to be saying is it's not acceptable to be either skinny or fat or to smell fresh and clean or dirty and grungy because everyone has different preferences. You're in a no-win situation no matter what, essentially.
Posts
Wolves, bad parents, same thing. My parents teaching me that it's a good idea to drive everywhere is a good idea, while their fault rather than mine, doesn't make me less of a bad driver or public menace.
Also, I've never seen you before, and I've been here a while, so I'd say that I probably know what belongs in D&D better than you.
Edit: wrong tags, fixed.
The infinitely higher insurance premiums I pay for being a 20-something male (and thus prone to hard drinking and fast driving) are a lot like a tax.
The main difference is that it takes a high amount of consistency to get fat. As Groucho said "and I love my cigar, but I take it out once in a while." It's that, except replace the woman's husband's sausage with Italian or Polish sausage (unless her husband was Italian or Polish, of course).
Yep. I notice this too.
Alternatively, the skinny folk are just really really concerned about the health of the fat folk and are just shaming them into losing weight (because that totally works!)
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
It also takes quite a bit of consistency to develop lung cancer, or cirrhosis of the liver. I'm not saying there's no element of choice involved, because there absolutely is. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of blaming fat people for increasing health care costs, but turning a blind eye to smokers, drinkers, fugu afficionados, BASE jumpers, firemen, and anyone else who has a higher-than-average likelihood of draining our precious health care dollars.
I'm now 5'6" and 158 with a good chunk of muscle.
I think I got more shit as a fat person which is why I decided to change my habits.
But I also was able to do it much easier because instead of people coming up to me and saying, "go out and exercise you fat piece of shit" (on second thought, I got that a lot, even though I was physically active), I had friends who asked me, "hey, wanna go on a run with me? I'll go at your pace."
Guilting or shaming someone who eats like that is only going to make them feel like shit and consequently eat even more. I've seen it and I've done it.
But I must've gotten crap from students, teachers, people who hired me, what have you on a regular basis. And oh, do they love to stare.
No for-profit enterprise busy making money off people's overconsumption is going to actively discourage it, and there are too many individuals believe that it is singularly an issue of self-control. I just don't think the will exists in the general public for a grass-roots movement.
But to be honest, I just don't see things changing soon, if ever. Most of the things that exacerbate this problem are too deeply ingrained into American culture for it to change in the near term.
Perhaps.
At the very least we can start by getting rid of the damn corn subsidies.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Where I'm from, car insurance is required. We also look down upon smokers (although this is mainly due to 2nd and 3rd hand smoke), drunkards, and idiots (base jumpers). We only really look up to firemen because they're accepting the consequences, kind of like how Christians like Jesus (although I, as a Jew, think that three days for all of humanity's sins stinks of nepotism).
This is just a fringe-benefit of that thing that needs to happen for a dozen other reasons anyway. Search posts by "Thanatos" containing the words "corn" for what I think of that.
Are you kidding me? Getting drunk is completely socially acceptable. Typically, someone who tells a tale of their drunken behavior gets a slap on the back or a "that was awesome." Yeah, alcoholism is looked down upon, but partying fri-sun sure as hell isn't - at least not in my lifetime.
Outside of college, partying fri-sun is alcoholism. You're exaggerating the acceptance of consuming alcohol tremendously. Enough so that I'm going to venture a guess that you're one of those temperance movement types.
Yes, but that's for one-time events. If there's any regularity even the people in the S&E thread tell you to try to watch it, and they're the type to say "that was awesome" to stories about explosive diarrhea, or as I believe it was once called 'burning brown anger from my backside." That's on top of the stereotype of regular drinkers being wife-beaters.
Alcoholism is hugely more accepted than you seem to think. When I got out of my own social bubble and met people (Families, adults) from elsewhere - I was shocked. Take a trip to the UK. I dont think you understand how true the statement is.
I used to tell people that I didnt "go large" at work functions because these were people I interacted with socially. I was mocked. By senior management. Because I didnt throw up at the christmas do.
You're also conflating drinking with alcoholism a bit there.
Wait a minute.
I missed this before, but if you're not concerned with this, then what are you concerned with? How people get fat is by being taught unhealthy behaviors. That's how this shit works, that's how it happens. That seems to be one of the biggest reasons family studies see a relationship between fat families and fat children. We have to educate, as well as try to reduce the kind of judgmentalism that keeps fat people fat.
And knowing is half the battle!
Now all I need is a "now you know" rainbow being led by a star with manboobs.
Same thing for me, same time periods, in British Columbia. After Grade 9 or 10 you didn't even have to take PE, and since I hated it, I quit.
I'd be interested to know if the wage gap was higher than the increased premiums obese people are causing in the employer's health plan.
I mean, really, what would you have to cover? Maybe everything in the H/A Fitness thread OP? If anything, less than that? Under 5000 words. You could easily cover that in the first few minutes of PE, and have plenty of time for testing and review.
The other thing to do is a fundamental change in how PE works. Instead of "here's some basketballs, now go play basketball" it should be focused on actually exercising the kids. "Here are some stretches." "Now, do some running." "Here are some body weight exercises." Even weightlifting could be taught to high school students.
As for "not being able to use it," how many high school students don't take care of any of their own meals? How many college students don't? I mean, would you object to teaching personal finance in high school because "the kids don't have any control over that, it's the parents?" I would say that that is one of the things that has led to our debt-centric society now. We need to teach this shit to kids because their parents aren't.
Well, the topic of the thread isn't "Why are people so goddamned fat?" It's "Fat Acceptance".
Well, here's the thing. Some people are attracted to amputees, to the extent that they'll cut off functioning limbs. But the majority of people are instinctively repulsed by a self-maimed human being. Some of the discrimination obese people face is due to the same instinctual revulsion, confronted with a human being who has made themselves less able to compete, physically, because of an inability to control their caloric intake vs. their caloric output.
PE at my school kicked arse. In year 10 we got to pick all the stuff we did (indoor soccer, european handball, the weights course and golf being the highlights). After year 10 most people quit but that's because it got a lot more learning oriented and really wasn't worth doing unless you wanted to get into physiotherapy or similar. My case is far from typical though I guess because it wasn't a public school and there weren't really any dickheads in my year who would give you shit if you sucked at something because they'd all managed to get expelled quite early.
People like you have already distributed blame, so I don't see what's so off-topic about distributing blame accurately.
It really seems like Drez answered your question in the post that spawned your question.
No it isn't.
No he's not.
Sorry if I mistook you for somebody else.
PP: Problem is, understanding cause is part of how and why people are or are not going to accept, in whatever capacity deemed necessary, obesity. If people actually cared to understand that a large chunk of the obesity problem in America is simply learned behaviors, maybe they'd be a bit less cutthroat. Nobody wants to be fat. Nobody shoves cake down their gullet simply to get fat. It's only a choice if you consider your environment a choice.
But guess what? The awesome thing about being human is the ability to reason and to replaced bad learned behaviors (otherwise known as habits) with good ones.
So, I don't see how crying over the culture of fatness in America is going to bring everyone to a new dawn of acceptance of fat people. Yes, it's a problem. Yes, it's pervasive. But, yes, it's still up to you if you want to be healthy.
I disagree with some of what you're saying here. I have trouble distinguishing between what you're saying and a total abdication of personal responsibility. But I don't want to get into that argument. If you think people should not be dicks to fat people, and I think people should not be dicks to fat people, and we discuss what being dicks mean, and arrive at a conclusion, that's as far as my interest in this topic goes at the moment.
We can discuss what's appropriate without discussing why people do inappropriate things or why they have the opportunity. We can even agree on what's appropriate without resolving our disagreement regarding fat people's responsibility / level of choice. Since what's appropriate wrt accepting and accommodating fat people is the topic of the thread, I feel justified in responding to your posts about the other stuff with "I don't care."
Yes! Beautiful! Perfect! It absolutely is up to them!
But we're not going to give them the tools to take control by scoffing at their problem and treating them like they're less than people. Disseminating knowledge to fill the void we have in our society is the only way, and that's part of what fat acceptance means to me. It's a very simple dialogue: "Yes, we recognize that you've got bad habits you learned from your parents, that nobody told you about carbs and calories and such, but we're going to equip you so you can take control of this yourself!" The answer is not to say, simply, that "it's up to them" and leave it at that, while constantly blaming for what they are. That's half why people that are fat stay fat.
I think the most controversial claims of Fat Acceptance Activists can be summed up as: diet and exercise aren't going to keep everyone from being fat, and being overweight isn't a health problem in and of itself. Restated: there are plenty of healthy fat people who exercise and eat right.
I don't think reasonable people have a problem with the idea of not treating fat people like shit--we all agree on that already (how to get there is another story). We've sort of moved away from the fat activists themselves in our discussion of mechanics to eliminate fat people from existence (under the presumption that being fat is unhealthy). We haven't yet examined the claim that being fat is unhealthy. It's taken as axiomatic, and maybe it shouldn't be.
I don't expect people to specifically like me for being fat, for the same reason I wouldn't expect someone to specifically like me if I were black or a redhead or etc.
I don't expect special treatment. If insurance rates were to cost more for obese people, I will happily pay that bill.
But people shouldn't act like it's a goddamn personal offense to them if I'm fat. I don't give a shit if you're thin, don't give a shit if I'm fat.
What do you think of people who ignore hygiene and develop an unpleasant odor?
edit: And being fat is nothing like being black or a redhead, I would love to know what the same reason is in that statement.
You can't smell fat. And provided I don't run through halls ramming into people, my weight is not making other people uncomfortable for any good reason (other than they can't stand the sight of me).
Nor can you see smell. So yes, I am comparing the two. It is neglect to health/hygiene. If you see someone who neglects their hygiene/health/weight and its unpleasant to your eyes, you can look away. If you smell someone who neglects their hygiene/health/smell and its unpleasant to your nose, you can breathe through your mouth.
People not being able to stand the sight of you is the same as people not being able to stand the smell of you. It's a matter of taste - what smells bad is a matter of opinion, what looks bad is a matter of opinion. Both are usually the result of neglect and they can be compared quite easily.
You think that your example of 'other than they can't stand the sight of me' differs from 'other than they can't stand the smell of me?' It doesn't.
EDIT: What you seem to be saying is it's not acceptable to be either skinny or fat or to smell fresh and clean or dirty and grungy because everyone has different preferences. You're in a no-win situation no matter what, essentially.