it's odd that outside of my experience with Badlands order and the Candymancers, people talk about BW's and AoE spam as a predominant tactic. On Badlands, I'd say it's been the other way, Sorc's with PoS all over each other.
even in the Mancer's, we've never made it a generally used tactic. probably because we don't have a ton of T4 BW's. and probably because we're Candymancers and do things our way.
any other badlands people want to correct me if i'm wrong?
it's odd that outside of my experience with Badlands order and the Candymancers, people talk about BW's and AoE spam as a predominant tactic. On Badlands, I'd say it's been the other way, Sorc's with PoS all over each other.
even in the Mancer's, we've never made it a generally used tactic. probably because we don't have a ton of T4 BW's. and probably because we're Candymancers and do things our way.
any other badlands people want to correct me if i'm wrong?
We all made engineer alts instead of bright wizards, this way we avoid the nerf train but still keep our aoe damage. You know this.
it's odd that outside of my experience with Badlands order and the Candymancers, people talk about BW's and AoE spam as a predominant tactic. On Badlands, I'd say it's been the other way, Sorc's with PoS all over each other.
even in the Mancer's, we've never made it a generally used tactic. probably because we don't have a ton of T4 BW's. and probably because we're Candymancers and do things our way.
any other badlands people want to correct me if i'm wrong?
We all made engineer alts instead of bright wizards, this way we avoid the nerf train but still keep our aoe damage. You know this.
yes, i know that. we'll have to roll the whole hit squad out sometime soon and see how things go.
i guess i wanted someone to correct me about whether or not order on badlands used the BW tactics a lot? i never really got the feeling we did, but then, i do generally only focus on the people in my squared window.
as for the difference in classes between factions, destro is currently more diverse. order seem to be running a significant chunk of all scenarios and wb's as BW and WPs. this basically equates to a bunch of aoe healers keeping up a bunch of aoe dpsers, which is a bit unsporting imho.
It's like this on Dark Crag too, in oRvR and scenarios. You see this tactic early on in the game, esp. in the T1 scen Gates of Ekrund. It's mix and match to be sure, but you'll get guild premades where it's pretty much nothing but BWs, Engineers, and a token Shadow Warrior backed by some ArchMages and a Runie/WP sitting on their asses on top of the overhang spamming ranged.
When I ran my WE, Ekrund popped the most for me, and the bulk of those scenarios played out exactly like that, where the Order side was a guild premade that just sat on top and mowed down the poor saps who tried to do a front rush. Sneaking around and hitting them from behind seemed to work out pretty well, though.
On the other hand, as an Order player on Praag, Destro seems to roll melee like crazy. It's diverse, sure, but I've been seeing more choppa's, marauders, and DoKs as of late. I can understand why Order would roll rdps all the time: it keeps back the zerg for the most part.
Man I'm just not seeing the same issues most people are with T4 AoE. If there are enough BWs/Sorcs inside that PoS/RoF spam is a big issue, you either a) picked the wrong keep to assault or b) failed hard on postern watch. Choosing to assault a keep that has 20+ people inside, or allowing 20+ people to get inside while you're assaulting, that's the real problem. It's a keep for chrissakes, it's a structure whose fundamental purpose is to magnify the effectiveness of the people defending it. Don't assault the one that has shit tons of people in it, don't allow shit tons of people into the one you're assaulting. It doesn't have to be strictly RvE, but you do need to minimize the number of defenders.
Even when there are Sorcs inside, the same camera trickery that allows them to use PoS with no direct line of sight to the ram pad also allows BWs and Engineers to get AoE damage up on the walls. I see Napalm and RoF spell effects up there often enough, anyway. People talk about about PoS/RoF like it's some kind of keep defense I-win button with no conceivable counter-strategy the attackers can employ, and I just don't think that's true.
Mind you I haven't done any forts since getting into T4, I imagine those are more likely to be total clusterfucks of AoE. But for regular keeps, T4 and PoS/RoF seems Ok to me so far. I do run with spell effects on in oRvR, so I can tell where the pits are and know where I need to move if I want to get out of them. That does make a big difference.
If your MDPS feel neutered in T4, they need to buddy up with some AoE healers and start taking full advantage of all the tactical options that the pick lock / bypass defenses abilities offer. In every successful keep take I've done in the past week, we've dropped doors to find melee DPS already active inside. Most of our postern watches don't seem to end outside the postern door. I see a lot of MDPS loitering inside waiting for the people who managed to weather our outer postern watch and clicked the postern with low health. I've also seen a lot of semi-suicidal wall-rushes from MDPS. My WP friend makes an effort to rez any MDPS who dies jumping off the wall so they can go back up and do it again, because a Sorc who's trying to kill MDPS on the wall is a Sorc who isn't AoE'ing the door.
Then you have a different opposition on your server than I do on my. Lucky you. On ours, Destro only seems to assault when they have overwhelming force. If they attack a keep and there's more than a handful of people inside they'll leave. On the other hand, if Order is trying to take a zone and assaulting a then-empty keep they'll ignore them entirely and go sit in the second keep to wait for them. Last time I went to protect the postern door it killed me because the bored MDPS inside would come out in a zerg to murder anyone nearby, then escape back inside if a larger force was dispatched against them from the front. There's not even a point to killing them because they get ressed right back up onto the ramparts.
If we can break through the doors it's generally okay, because having the entire force ignore the lord floor and just charge up to the top, overwhelming the camping Destro, works well, but usually we can't get through the second door because you pretty much need to rely on RDPS entirely to take the damn door down due to the entire front of the keep being a non-stop blob of "hi! I tick for 20% of your health every second!" doom. And then people say fuck it and bugger off.
it's odd that outside of my experience with Badlands order and the Candymancers, people talk about BW's and AoE spam as a predominant tactic. On Badlands, I'd say it's been the other way, Sorc's with PoS all over each other.
even in the Mancer's, we've never made it a generally used tactic. probably because we don't have a ton of T4 BW's. and probably because we're Candymancers and do things our way.
any other badlands people want to correct me if i'm wrong?
Order on Badlands abuses RoF spam just as much as destro abuse PoS spam. However Candymancers has a relatively low number of BWs, so our ability to abuse it is lessened as a guild. We have repelled a number of fort seiges, in no small part due to RoF spam.
Also, in a game built around steadily advancing PvP objectives you don't just get to pick which keep to attack. If you are pushing Caledor, and there is one keep left to take for a lock, you don't simply get to choose not to attack it because, god forbid they managed to get 4 or so sorcs in. And you don't even need to get inside the postern to get inside the keep if the front door is still up. You just have to get within res range, which isn't all that hard.
And no, you cannot use the same tricks on offense as you can on defense. Defenders aren't being funneled onto either a small area in front of the door, or a small narrow staircase. So it is a lot harder to leverage GT AoE in an offensive manner in comparison to a defensive one. There isn't a very effective counter to GT AoE defense, which is why it is getting nerfed.
MDPS rushes work ok in small fights. They do not work well in large fights. Pick Locks is on a 5 minute timer and even with spam healing MDPS isn't all that hard to kill. If you suffer an unlucky knockback you can be unressable as well. It is not a panacea to GT AoE spam. When you see MDPS on the ground floor after breaking down a door, often they have just ported in and killed the guards a few seconds before.
I've started camping the area surrounding the postern door on most t2 keeps with my DoK when sieging because, from the WBs I've been in, no one else does it and when we don't do it, we almost always fail at taking the Keep.
It never ceases to amaze me how many times you'll see people posting in Region: "ZOMG Order/Destro is just filling Mandreds this is pointless let's take STK", and then later you'll see "ZOMG I can't get inside Mandreds because Order/Destro is camping the postern wtf", and the importance of what they're seeing is lost on them.
What is teh state of the game currently? I quit a couple months ago since I was playing a White Lion on DC (really enjoyed teh server) but was getting fed up with the bugs in the game.
I've been having so much fun playing D2 with the PA group I'd consider coming back :P (if my wife lets me) once my budget allows it/the game is patched to better playability.
i liked playing melee DPS even though they are bottom feeders without great backup. played an IB through t1 which was wicked fun, cause with a 2h at lvl 10-11 i was a freakin beast.
if i came back i'd probably go BW or RP if there were groups to roll with, maybe even SW. (though i hate the elves in this game even more than in WoW)
also, i was in candymancers back before the server transfers, but never got very high on the White Lion i played there.
What is teh state of the game currently? I quit a couple months ago since I was playing a White Lion on DC (really enjoyed teh server) but was getting fed up with the bugs in the game.
I've been having so much fun playing D2 with the PA group I'd consider coming back :P (if my wife lets me) once my budget allows it/the game is patched to better playability.
i liked playing melee DPS even though they are bottom feeders without great backup. played an IB through t1 which was wicked fun, cause with a 2h at lvl 10-11 i was a freakin beast.
if i came back i'd probably go BW or RP if there were groups to roll with, maybe even SW. (though i hate the elves in this game even more than in WoW)
also, i was in candymancers back before the server transfers, but never got very high on the White Lion i played there.
I'm not sure what bugs you are talking about specifically, but the last patch fixed a couple of things:
- Disorient no longer affects melee abilities, so your melee attacks will never again have a cast time
- They fixed the bypass defenses realm rank ability so that you can get through postern doors
- They fixed the memory leak that caused graphical effects to stop working when you play too long, so that you can see spells and what not when RvRing for long periods.
mostly things like cast-time bugs, erratic behavior of pets, keeps/dungeons bugging out.
they pour more and more content on before the current content is in a truely release quality state. thats what was really getting to me.
Most of that still seems to be there. They're attacking cast times next patch and maybe a quick glance at pets (Not sure about this, but I've seen a lot of WL's crying in the SH/AM patch thread - so maybe not).
well, glad the cast times are getting actually looked at, rather than mythic just say they're fixed :P
i really like both of the pet classes, my problem with it is that i feel squiger is viable w/o a pet, though better with one, but WL loses almost/all his utility if he doesn't have a pet. i saw that they were adding some sort of stat contribution, though i doubt that is enough to fix the problems.
what are they doing with sorc/bright wizard? i hear they're getting tuned, but can't really find something that explains it well other than no stacking of POS/ROF (you can stack them, but each spell can only hit up to 6 ppl)
well, glad the cast times are getting actually looked at, rather than mythic just say they're fixed :P
i really like both of the pet classes, my problem with it is that i feel squiger is viable w/o a pet, though better with one, but WL loses almost/all his utility if he doesn't have a pet. i saw that they were adding some sort of stat contribution, though i doubt that is enough to fix the problems.
what are they doing with sorc/bright wizard? i hear they're getting tuned, but can't really find something that explains it well other than no stacking of POS/ROF (you can stack them, but each spell can only hit up to 6 ppl)
I think that might be intentional.
The Squigger gains from his pet much like the SW gains from stances.
The WL is constrained by his pet, much like the Marauder is constrained by his stances. Though the SW is also constrained by his stances as well.
Of the 4 of them though, I would say the Squigger is the one that is best off currently when solo, though any of the other classes can be just as strong when played well with a focused spec and tactic layout.
from what i've been reading, WL still mostly roll with loner slotted, and simply rely and hitting things really, really hard. I also read that marauders have been sucking hind tit lately, which sucks for them cause they used to be pretty good.
Off in some corner of Stonetroll Crossing, as I attempted to return to the fray in a scenario where we faced two Order guilds, a witch hunter and warrior priest accousted my zealot by her lonesome.
What followed was the most spectacular failure to kill a zealot I've ever seen. Consistently keeping my front to the WH and detaunting him, enduring his silences and AP drains, I managed to heal through both their damage consistently for a full three minutes before getting assistance. From a Magus. So chalk on another two minues of healing the both of us before a shaman joins the fray, and at this point it's just the most amazing display of a group of people that simply can't kill each other. It finally ended when the troll pacifier group got to us and slaughtered our enemies, but it's moments like that where I always smile and scoff at leveling something else.
be glad there wasn't a decently geared/played white lion there they are much more scary
Meh not really. If a WH and a WP can't finish him off, what makes you think a WL could?
Now, if it was a WL, WH, and a WP attacking him, well then no shit, he'd be hard pressed with two mdps and a heal/dps class on his ass. Until the Shammie arrived and then Order would have been ramming their heads into a wall of heals.
Also, I'd like to know the respective ranks of each class in this battle. It would make more sense of this awesome incident.
As a zealot, I don't really know what to fear. I just watch health bars drop down and know that if anything gets to me and no one bothers to take care of it I will likely die.
It is very difficult to heal you when I must heal myself! Support your healers.
As a zealot, I don't really know what to fear. I just watch health bars drop down and know that if anything gets to me and no one bothers to take care of it I will likely die.
It is very difficult to heal you when I must heal myself! Support your healers.
EDIT: I was r17, the WH was r18 and the WP r19.
Can't recall any others.
You done good boy. You done real good.
If a r18 WH and r19 WP can't kill you, there's no way a WL could have touched you. Unless, again, it were three on one.
I love standing up on a hill being unkillable and making sure my buddies are unkillable too.
I can totally understand the frustration that the WH must have felt during this battle. I've been in a few situations myself with my WH against a Zealot. He probably wasn't using the Blessed Bullets that have the 50% reduction in healing, I bet. Or he was using his "Burn, Heretic!" DoT judgement and not "Absolution".
Not that it would make a difference, but "Burn, Heretic!" can be negated by "Patch Wounds" or the Zealot equivalent. "Absolution" is straight up burst damage and therefore can't be yanked off.
I don't really know why he couldn't get me myself. I can only presume that keeping him detaunted and in front of me balanced things in my favour.
Actually, if you were detaunting and doing nothing but healing, that would explain a lot.
Also, if he was AP draining you with his 2nd rank morale ability, he's doing it wrong. Against zealots you have to do burst damage, lots and lots of it. He should have been hitting sever nerve and his positional ability that allows him to use those abilities w/out having to be behind you, etc.
Man, all this WH talk is making me want to fire up my WH right now.
I can usually get equal level zealots down to about 30% HP, but at that point the m1 heal goes off and his buddies all come in to rape me. :x
my point was that 2 people should have been able to take you out.
Zealots and Rune Priests are the healing classes where you need more than 2 people to kill, if we're talking about equal or close to equal ranks on either side.
I never go after one unless there's another person with me, the Zealot/Rune Priest is away from the main group, and/or they're already wounded enough where I know that I can finish them off if I act quick.
I just rolled up a zealot and what do you know, suddenly I'm winning scenarios. And topping healing at level 3, but to be fair, that says more about the other healers than it does about me.
so how is the guild on Badlands doing? I read its pretty active at US primetime but kinda slow on off hours?
i am considering re-subbing for a month to have fun. i remember having fun despite most of the issues, just not sure what i'd play. probably BW, since i never play ranged characters. and Candymancers isn't overflowing with them.
so, any active candymancers who happen across this thread: how are things right now?
also, what is the economy like on Badlands? if one was to take salvaging can you get greens off the AH for silvers? i know on Ungrim, i could get lvl 20 or lower greens for 50-70s sometimes less, but once i hit Dark Crag, suddenly you're lucky to see a green for < 1g of any lvl.
there is something awfully strange i noticed during my trial
while the addition of renown rewards for pvp was a nice touch, it didn't necessarily promote actual small scale pvp (on iron rock at least). there was nothing but zerg after zerg. there was also nothing but keep flipping which normally happens when one side is too small to deal with the other (happened in lotro). i was essentially pve'ing for pvp. warbands would essentially avoid other warbands. by the time i got to t3, scenarios were barely popping because everyone was out avoiding each other.
Rolled up a shammy for shits and giggles and I have to say they are pretty fun. I forgot how nice it is to be able to heal yourself and do ranged damage (had a Rune Priest that was my main orginally)
so how is the guild on Badlands doing? I read its pretty active at US primetime but kinda slow on off hours?
i am considering re-subbing for a month to have fun. i remember having fun despite most of the issues, just not sure what i'd play. probably BW, since i never play ranged characters. and Candymancers isn't overflowing with them.
so, any active candymancers who happen across this thread: how are things right now?
also, what is the economy like on Badlands? if one was to take salvaging can you get greens off the AH for silvers? i know on Ungrim, i could get lvl 20 or lower greens for 50-70s sometimes less, but once i hit Dark Crag, suddenly you're lucky to see a green for < 1g of any lvl.
I don't really check the Auction house at all, but then again, I have no need to right now.
Every thing else seems OK. T3 scenarios are meh unless its primetime or a weekend.
The T4 stuff seems to flip pretty frequently, I always hear them in vent talking about it, and contributing to it.
Rolled up a shammy for shits and giggles and I have to say they are pretty fun. I forgot how nice it is to be able to heal yourself and do ranged damage (had a Rune Priest that was my main orginally)
Now imagine doing 25% more of that damage. The next patch is going to be awesome.
there is something awfully strange i noticed during my trial
while the addition of renown rewards for pvp was a nice touch, it didn't necessarily promote actual small scale pvp (on iron rock at least). there was nothing but zerg after zerg. there was also nothing but keep flipping which normally happens when one side is too small to deal with the other (happened in lotro). i was essentially pve'ing for pvp. warbands would essentially avoid other warbands. by the time i got to t3, scenarios were barely popping because everyone was out avoiding each other.
Yea it seems to be on most servers (granted I've only done up to Tier 3). The static I run with (before I subb'd) was actually order, but when their warband continually avoided defended keeps/any pvp combat at all, they re-rolled Destro thinking that would fix it. It didn't (they actually don't RvR at all, just scens and dungeons - which is a shame). It seems there's a good amount of people that have a problem with this, but if the warband tries to stay and take a defended keep the dissenters will drop and go take an empty keep - taking most of the warband with them. People don't seem to have the patience anymore for 2 hour keep takes like they did in DAOC.
They really need more rewards for taking defended keeps - the miniscule renown/influence doesn't seem to cut it. Maybe those token thingies will fix it, but I'm not thinking so.
yeah, sherlok same thing on Gorfang. The moment there is any defense at all people just want to give up and let them take the rest of teh bo's etc and let them move on to another zone so we can just recap everything with out a fight. There have been a few times we actualy got a WB to stick through a keep take and ended up taking it , was quite satisfying. i do agree they need to up the rewards for the attackers so that people would more regularly stick with it.
Draeven on
Morskitter wrote "Spikes, choppas, tentacles, magic? Can't hold a candle to Sergeant Pimp here."
It doesn't matter how many rewards they pile up when keep assault boils down to "90% of the WB stands out of range and twiddles their thumbs as RDPS shoots the door, because it's downright suicidal to actually approach the ramparts".
The southern keep in Dark Craig? The one inside the cave? Yeah, that thing can collapse unto itself, taking its inhabitants with it. Absolutely every spot on the upper platform is in rampart AoE range, and if you're not up there you can't heal anyone else who is. And all the siege weapon spots are either too far or out of line of sight of any useful target. I'm not sure what exactly the people attacking are supposed to do there, except provide free points for whomever is defending the keep.
Glal on
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KakodaimonosCode fondlerHelping the 1% get richerRegistered Userregular
It doesn't matter how many rewards they pile up when keep assault boils down to "90% of the WB stands out of range and twiddles their thumbs as RDPS shoots the door, because it's downright suicidal to actually approach the ramparts".
The southern keep in Dark Craig? The one inside the cave? Yeah, that thing can collapse unto itself, taking its inhabitants with it. Absolutely every spot on the upper platform is in rampart AoE range, and if you're not up there you can't heal anyone else who is. And all the siege weapon spots are either too far or out of line of sight of any useful target. I'm not sure what exactly the people attacking are supposed to do there, except provide free points for whomever is defending the keep.
They should really add some sort of offensive tick like they have for defense. Cut the Inf/Renown rewards for killing the lord and add some sort of tick based on the number of defenders. That would probably encourage a lot more people to actually try to take a defended keep.
I have also seen the running from defense issue as well.
I hate it personally, but I THINK part of the issue is keeping out the reinforcements and the damned oil.
I have been in WBs with every pad full of a ballista and never come close to killing the oil. there are also very few classes with sufficient roots/slows/KBs etc to keep people out of the postern door. At many of the keeps there are not enough chock points leading to the postern door to allow you to block them unless you are close to the door, and that usually means they can get through or get rezed into the keep.
With the oil up and no way to really stop them if there is a healer inside, groups get frustrated because they know it is a lost cause, especially in T3 with two doors. The defenders have more then enough time to get there and no real way to stop them.
I think they need to change the terrain to make natural choke points far enough out that defenders can kill the random defenders that show up, far enough to prevent them from being rezed. Or make it so defenders are not at such an advantage. perhaps make it so that if 3-4 balistas work together the oil can be taken down. Maybe even make the repair time on the oil longer so even if we can't take it down, give us longer "safe" periods to res and get everyone topped off.
I have rarely seen anything less then a full WB even come close to taking a defended keep during "normal" times. The ratio of attackers to defenders needed is just to high. There is more then enough time for defenders to show up to block any chance of people getting in.
I would love to see some sort of "Siege" mechanic. Something about how long since anyone "new" has shown up inside the keep, or since the last load of "supplies" arrived. Supplies being something you can buy for a few silver at the WC and you just give to the keep lord. Say if after 10 minutes no new people/supplies show up then the AP recovery slows to represent your lack of fresh food and water, slowly increasing until you can't rez people inside the keep as well. That would give smallish and organized WBs the ability to take keeps if they are patient. Get enough people to block the posterns while you slowly work away at the door, and unless outside help shows up, you get a decent chance at taking the keep.
would fewer hitpoints, but greater damage across the board be a positive change for cannons and siege weapons? or at least the oil?
right now, oil has insane effective hitpoints (EHP) with the repair ratios. in T2 and T3 it's nigh impossible to take a repaired oil down.
and ya, water flows the path of least resistance, so if there are keeps left to take that aren't defended vs. the one you're at that is, people will go to the other keeps. it's annoying but it shouldn't be a surprise.
i'm curious to see what happens if they balance the token change correctly.
also, why couldn't they add non-set warded items? random drops off players (higher drop rates than pvp boots) or keep lords or whatever (crappy keep green bags?) of armor pieces (repairable?) that have a ward on them, but no set bonus. make them slightly better than level appropriate greens. that way, you can get the ward, and participate in the various activities, but you aren't stopped from wanting to collect the set gear which would be better, nor would you be as restrictively gated from advanced content.
i'm not sure they need to really gate people as much as they have now that the game is a bit older. hell, they got the "world first" king capture out of the way. i hope they keep the game engaging and fun, and not all about winning. just like the tabletop games, one side will win and one side will lose, but it's the actual process of playing that keeps people around.
so how is the guild on Badlands doing? I read its pretty active at US primetime but kinda slow on off hours?
i am considering re-subbing for a month to have fun. i remember having fun despite most of the issues, just not sure what i'd play. probably BW, since i never play ranged characters. and Candymancers isn't overflowing with them.
so, any active candymancers who happen across this thread: how are things right now?
also, what is the economy like on Badlands? if one was to take salvaging can you get greens off the AH for silvers? i know on Ungrim, i could get lvl 20 or lower greens for 50-70s sometimes less, but once i hit Dark Crag, suddenly you're lucky to see a green for < 1g of any lvl.
Some of the other guildies might be able to provide more in depth answers, but from my view, life on badlands is pretty good.
We seem to peak around 10-15+ members during prime time most nights of the week (at any given time, most all of them 40's), with things dwindling down around 3 am est and staying that way til 4pm the next day. Curse jobs and everything else taking time away from our warhammer :P
Things are in a bit of a post patch lull serverwise it feels right now though. The rush of 1.2 is wearing off, and until 1.2.1 and the AoE changes a lot of people are going pretty casual about everything. I expect another big push as soon as the patch hits though with all the changes it brings.
'fraid most of the leveling rush from slayer/choppa rerolls and new subs is entering late t3 / early t4 right now, so the lower levels might be getting kinda slow. T3 at least really peaked over last weekend, and seems to have drastically slowed down midday EST.
When it comes to crafting, I'd go with cultivating instead and get the miracle grow mod. Cult is ridiculously overpowerd right now and super easy to build up and make good potions when coupled with Apoth. You can go down the salvaging route, but prices really aren't that awesome for AH greens and you'll be spending way more money trying to salvage greens for +8's or so that you'll be outlevelling in a day or two anyway. If you really do want to go that route, then i'd get scavenging instead, and have an alt for salvaging. All of the purple curious and such are going for obscene prices on the AH. (Talking 75g+ for level 50s). If you do hook up with the candymancers though, we've got multiple active talsiman makers who will be more than willing to help you get twinked out, and even happier if you toss them the scavenged stuff as well.
You guys don't get offline til 3am? I feel like a wuss now. Damn this waking up at 6 am.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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even in the Mancer's, we've never made it a generally used tactic. probably because we don't have a ton of T4 BW's. and probably because we're Candymancers and do things our way.
any other badlands people want to correct me if i'm wrong?
We all made engineer alts instead of bright wizards, this way we avoid the nerf train but still keep our aoe damage. You know this.
yes, i know that. we'll have to roll the whole hit squad out sometime soon and see how things go.
i guess i wanted someone to correct me about whether or not order on badlands used the BW tactics a lot? i never really got the feeling we did, but then, i do generally only focus on the people in my squared window.
Perception et al.
It's like this on Dark Crag too, in oRvR and scenarios. You see this tactic early on in the game, esp. in the T1 scen Gates of Ekrund. It's mix and match to be sure, but you'll get guild premades where it's pretty much nothing but BWs, Engineers, and a token Shadow Warrior backed by some ArchMages and a Runie/WP sitting on their asses on top of the overhang spamming ranged.
When I ran my WE, Ekrund popped the most for me, and the bulk of those scenarios played out exactly like that, where the Order side was a guild premade that just sat on top and mowed down the poor saps who tried to do a front rush. Sneaking around and hitting them from behind seemed to work out pretty well, though.
On the other hand, as an Order player on Praag, Destro seems to roll melee like crazy. It's diverse, sure, but I've been seeing more choppa's, marauders, and DoKs as of late. I can understand why Order would roll rdps all the time: it keeps back the zerg for the most part.
Even when there are Sorcs inside, the same camera trickery that allows them to use PoS with no direct line of sight to the ram pad also allows BWs and Engineers to get AoE damage up on the walls. I see Napalm and RoF spell effects up there often enough, anyway. People talk about about PoS/RoF like it's some kind of keep defense I-win button with no conceivable counter-strategy the attackers can employ, and I just don't think that's true.
Mind you I haven't done any forts since getting into T4, I imagine those are more likely to be total clusterfucks of AoE. But for regular keeps, T4 and PoS/RoF seems Ok to me so far. I do run with spell effects on in oRvR, so I can tell where the pits are and know where I need to move if I want to get out of them. That does make a big difference.
If your MDPS feel neutered in T4, they need to buddy up with some AoE healers and start taking full advantage of all the tactical options that the pick lock / bypass defenses abilities offer. In every successful keep take I've done in the past week, we've dropped doors to find melee DPS already active inside. Most of our postern watches don't seem to end outside the postern door. I see a lot of MDPS loitering inside waiting for the people who managed to weather our outer postern watch and clicked the postern with low health. I've also seen a lot of semi-suicidal wall-rushes from MDPS. My WP friend makes an effort to rez any MDPS who dies jumping off the wall so they can go back up and do it again, because a Sorc who's trying to kill MDPS on the wall is a Sorc who isn't AoE'ing the door.
If we can break through the doors it's generally okay, because having the entire force ignore the lord floor and just charge up to the top, overwhelming the camping Destro, works well, but usually we can't get through the second door because you pretty much need to rely on RDPS entirely to take the damn door down due to the entire front of the keep being a non-stop blob of "hi! I tick for 20% of your health every second!" doom. And then people say fuck it and bugger off.
Order on Badlands abuses RoF spam just as much as destro abuse PoS spam. However Candymancers has a relatively low number of BWs, so our ability to abuse it is lessened as a guild. We have repelled a number of fort seiges, in no small part due to RoF spam.
Also, in a game built around steadily advancing PvP objectives you don't just get to pick which keep to attack. If you are pushing Caledor, and there is one keep left to take for a lock, you don't simply get to choose not to attack it because, god forbid they managed to get 4 or so sorcs in. And you don't even need to get inside the postern to get inside the keep if the front door is still up. You just have to get within res range, which isn't all that hard.
And no, you cannot use the same tricks on offense as you can on defense. Defenders aren't being funneled onto either a small area in front of the door, or a small narrow staircase. So it is a lot harder to leverage GT AoE in an offensive manner in comparison to a defensive one. There isn't a very effective counter to GT AoE defense, which is why it is getting nerfed.
MDPS rushes work ok in small fights. They do not work well in large fights. Pick Locks is on a 5 minute timer and even with spam healing MDPS isn't all that hard to kill. If you suffer an unlucky knockback you can be unressable as well. It is not a panacea to GT AoE spam. When you see MDPS on the ground floor after breaking down a door, often they have just ported in and killed the guards a few seconds before.
I've started camping the area surrounding the postern door on most t2 keeps with my DoK when sieging because, from the WBs I've been in, no one else does it and when we don't do it, we almost always fail at taking the Keep.
It never ceases to amaze me how many times you'll see people posting in Region: "ZOMG Order/Destro is just filling Mandreds this is pointless let's take STK", and then later you'll see "ZOMG I can't get inside Mandreds because Order/Destro is camping the postern wtf", and the importance of what they're seeing is lost on them.
I've been having so much fun playing D2 with the PA group I'd consider coming back :P (if my wife lets me) once my budget allows it/the game is patched to better playability.
i liked playing melee DPS even though they are bottom feeders without great backup. played an IB through t1 which was wicked fun, cause with a 2h at lvl 10-11 i was a freakin beast.
if i came back i'd probably go BW or RP if there were groups to roll with, maybe even SW. (though i hate the elves in this game even more than in WoW)
also, i was in candymancers back before the server transfers, but never got very high on the White Lion i played there.
I'm not sure what bugs you are talking about specifically, but the last patch fixed a couple of things:
- Disorient no longer affects melee abilities, so your melee attacks will never again have a cast time
- They fixed the bypass defenses realm rank ability so that you can get through postern doors
- They fixed the memory leak that caused graphical effects to stop working when you play too long, so that you can see spells and what not when RvRing for long periods.
MWO: Adamski
they pour more and more content on before the current content is in a truely release quality state. thats what was really getting to me.
Most of that still seems to be there. They're attacking cast times next patch and maybe a quick glance at pets (Not sure about this, but I've seen a lot of WL's crying in the SH/AM patch thread - so maybe not).
Might want to wait a bit longer I guess.
i really like both of the pet classes, my problem with it is that i feel squiger is viable w/o a pet, though better with one, but WL loses almost/all his utility if he doesn't have a pet. i saw that they were adding some sort of stat contribution, though i doubt that is enough to fix the problems.
what are they doing with sorc/bright wizard? i hear they're getting tuned, but can't really find something that explains it well other than no stacking of POS/ROF (you can stack them, but each spell can only hit up to 6 ppl)
I think that might be intentional.
The Squigger gains from his pet much like the SW gains from stances.
The WL is constrained by his pet, much like the Marauder is constrained by his stances. Though the SW is also constrained by his stances as well.
Of the 4 of them though, I would say the Squigger is the one that is best off currently when solo, though any of the other classes can be just as strong when played well with a focused spec and tactic layout.
MWO: Adamski
What followed was the most spectacular failure to kill a zealot I've ever seen. Consistently keeping my front to the WH and detaunting him, enduring his silences and AP drains, I managed to heal through both their damage consistently for a full three minutes before getting assistance. From a Magus. So chalk on another two minues of healing the both of us before a shaman joins the fray, and at this point it's just the most amazing display of a group of people that simply can't kill each other. It finally ended when the troll pacifier group got to us and slaughtered our enemies, but it's moments like that where I always smile and scoff at leveling something else.
Meh not really. If a WH and a WP can't finish him off, what makes you think a WL could?
Now, if it was a WL, WH, and a WP attacking him, well then no shit, he'd be hard pressed with two mdps and a heal/dps class on his ass. Until the Shammie arrived and then Order would have been ramming their heads into a wall of heals.
Also, I'd like to know the respective ranks of each class in this battle. It would make more sense of this awesome incident.
It is very difficult to heal you when I must heal myself! Support your healers.
EDIT: I was r17, the WH was r18 and the WP r19.
Can't recall any others.
You done good boy. You done real good.
If a r18 WH and r19 WP can't kill you, there's no way a WL could have touched you. Unless, again, it were three on one.
I love standing up on a hill being unkillable and making sure my buddies are unkillable too.
my point was that 2 people should have been able to take you out.
I can totally understand the frustration that the WH must have felt during this battle. I've been in a few situations myself with my WH against a Zealot. He probably wasn't using the Blessed Bullets that have the 50% reduction in healing, I bet. Or he was using his "Burn, Heretic!" DoT judgement and not "Absolution".
Not that it would make a difference, but "Burn, Heretic!" can be negated by "Patch Wounds" or the Zealot equivalent. "Absolution" is straight up burst damage and therefore can't be yanked off.
Actually, if you were detaunting and doing nothing but healing, that would explain a lot.
Also, if he was AP draining you with his 2nd rank morale ability, he's doing it wrong. Against zealots you have to do burst damage, lots and lots of it. He should have been hitting sever nerve and his positional ability that allows him to use those abilities w/out having to be behind you, etc.
Man, all this WH talk is making me want to fire up my WH right now.
Damn.
Zealots and Rune Priests are the healing classes where you need more than 2 people to kill, if we're talking about equal or close to equal ranks on either side.
I never go after one unless there's another person with me, the Zealot/Rune Priest is away from the main group, and/or they're already wounded enough where I know that I can finish them off if I act quick.
i am considering re-subbing for a month to have fun. i remember having fun despite most of the issues, just not sure what i'd play. probably BW, since i never play ranged characters. and Candymancers isn't overflowing with them.
so, any active candymancers who happen across this thread: how are things right now?
also, what is the economy like on Badlands? if one was to take salvaging can you get greens off the AH for silvers? i know on Ungrim, i could get lvl 20 or lower greens for 50-70s sometimes less, but once i hit Dark Crag, suddenly you're lucky to see a green for < 1g of any lvl.
while the addition of renown rewards for pvp was a nice touch, it didn't necessarily promote actual small scale pvp (on iron rock at least). there was nothing but zerg after zerg. there was also nothing but keep flipping which normally happens when one side is too small to deal with the other (happened in lotro). i was essentially pve'ing for pvp. warbands would essentially avoid other warbands. by the time i got to t3, scenarios were barely popping because everyone was out avoiding each other.
I don't really check the Auction house at all, but then again, I have no need to right now.
Every thing else seems OK. T3 scenarios are meh unless its primetime or a weekend.
The T4 stuff seems to flip pretty frequently, I always hear them in vent talking about it, and contributing to it.
Now imagine doing 25% more of that damage. The next patch is going to be awesome.
Yea it seems to be on most servers (granted I've only done up to Tier 3). The static I run with (before I subb'd) was actually order, but when their warband continually avoided defended keeps/any pvp combat at all, they re-rolled Destro thinking that would fix it. It didn't (they actually don't RvR at all, just scens and dungeons - which is a shame). It seems there's a good amount of people that have a problem with this, but if the warband tries to stay and take a defended keep the dissenters will drop and go take an empty keep - taking most of the warband with them. People don't seem to have the patience anymore for 2 hour keep takes like they did in DAOC.
They really need more rewards for taking defended keeps - the miniscule renown/influence doesn't seem to cut it. Maybe those token thingies will fix it, but I'm not thinking so.
The southern keep in Dark Craig? The one inside the cave? Yeah, that thing can collapse unto itself, taking its inhabitants with it. Absolutely every spot on the upper platform is in rampart AoE range, and if you're not up there you can't heal anyone else who is. And all the siege weapon spots are either too far or out of line of sight of any useful target. I'm not sure what exactly the people attacking are supposed to do there, except provide free points for whomever is defending the keep.
They should really add some sort of offensive tick like they have for defense. Cut the Inf/Renown rewards for killing the lord and add some sort of tick based on the number of defenders. That would probably encourage a lot more people to actually try to take a defended keep.
I hate it personally, but I THINK part of the issue is keeping out the reinforcements and the damned oil.
I have been in WBs with every pad full of a ballista and never come close to killing the oil. there are also very few classes with sufficient roots/slows/KBs etc to keep people out of the postern door. At many of the keeps there are not enough chock points leading to the postern door to allow you to block them unless you are close to the door, and that usually means they can get through or get rezed into the keep.
With the oil up and no way to really stop them if there is a healer inside, groups get frustrated because they know it is a lost cause, especially in T3 with two doors. The defenders have more then enough time to get there and no real way to stop them.
I think they need to change the terrain to make natural choke points far enough out that defenders can kill the random defenders that show up, far enough to prevent them from being rezed. Or make it so defenders are not at such an advantage. perhaps make it so that if 3-4 balistas work together the oil can be taken down. Maybe even make the repair time on the oil longer so even if we can't take it down, give us longer "safe" periods to res and get everyone topped off.
I have rarely seen anything less then a full WB even come close to taking a defended keep during "normal" times. The ratio of attackers to defenders needed is just to high. There is more then enough time for defenders to show up to block any chance of people getting in.
I would love to see some sort of "Siege" mechanic. Something about how long since anyone "new" has shown up inside the keep, or since the last load of "supplies" arrived. Supplies being something you can buy for a few silver at the WC and you just give to the keep lord. Say if after 10 minutes no new people/supplies show up then the AP recovery slows to represent your lack of fresh food and water, slowly increasing until you can't rez people inside the keep as well. That would give smallish and organized WBs the ability to take keeps if they are patient. Get enough people to block the posterns while you slowly work away at the door, and unless outside help shows up, you get a decent chance at taking the keep.
right now, oil has insane effective hitpoints (EHP) with the repair ratios. in T2 and T3 it's nigh impossible to take a repaired oil down.
and ya, water flows the path of least resistance, so if there are keeps left to take that aren't defended vs. the one you're at that is, people will go to the other keeps. it's annoying but it shouldn't be a surprise.
i'm curious to see what happens if they balance the token change correctly.
also, why couldn't they add non-set warded items? random drops off players (higher drop rates than pvp boots) or keep lords or whatever (crappy keep green bags?) of armor pieces (repairable?) that have a ward on them, but no set bonus. make them slightly better than level appropriate greens. that way, you can get the ward, and participate in the various activities, but you aren't stopped from wanting to collect the set gear which would be better, nor would you be as restrictively gated from advanced content.
i'm not sure they need to really gate people as much as they have now that the game is a bit older. hell, they got the "world first" king capture out of the way. i hope they keep the game engaging and fun, and not all about winning. just like the tabletop games, one side will win and one side will lose, but it's the actual process of playing that keeps people around.
Some of the other guildies might be able to provide more in depth answers, but from my view, life on badlands is pretty good.
We seem to peak around 10-15+ members during prime time most nights of the week (at any given time, most all of them 40's), with things dwindling down around 3 am est and staying that way til 4pm the next day. Curse jobs and everything else taking time away from our warhammer :P
Things are in a bit of a post patch lull serverwise it feels right now though. The rush of 1.2 is wearing off, and until 1.2.1 and the AoE changes a lot of people are going pretty casual about everything. I expect another big push as soon as the patch hits though with all the changes it brings.
'fraid most of the leveling rush from slayer/choppa rerolls and new subs is entering late t3 / early t4 right now, so the lower levels might be getting kinda slow. T3 at least really peaked over last weekend, and seems to have drastically slowed down midday EST.
When it comes to crafting, I'd go with cultivating instead and get the miracle grow mod. Cult is ridiculously overpowerd right now and super easy to build up and make good potions when coupled with Apoth. You can go down the salvaging route, but prices really aren't that awesome for AH greens and you'll be spending way more money trying to salvage greens for +8's or so that you'll be outlevelling in a day or two anyway. If you really do want to go that route, then i'd get scavenging instead, and have an alt for salvaging. All of the purple curious and such are going for obscene prices on the AH. (Talking 75g+ for level 50s). If you do hook up with the candymancers though, we've got multiple active talsiman makers who will be more than willing to help you get twinked out, and even happier if you toss them the scavenged stuff as well.
If you have any other quetions, feel free to ask!