It's no longer a horror game. It becomes a game of trial and error. Go here, wait 4 minutes, go there, wait 2 minutes, go here and grab that, go there and wait. I liked the game 'Guess Who?' when I was a kid, but Siren takes it to an obscene level. After awhile the game just loses all tension because you know you're going to die 50ish times until you figure out the pattern.
I had not one, but two guides on hand at all times, so that cut down on the trial and error somewhat. It also helps to think of the snipers as not much enemies as really violent invisible fences. Go where you're not supposed to and they'll blow you away.
Now hold on, I want to get an opinion on this. Is it acceptable or just lazy for a developer to gimp gameplay to make a game more tense? Resident Evil had tank controls and wacky camera angles, RE4 wouldn't let you side step while aiming, Doom 3 didn't let you duct tape your flashlight to your gun - these things were probably intentional.
Can a game with perfect controls and an agreeable camera be scary?
I always thought that the first half of Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth hit a "survival horror" sweet spot. I mean, you didn't have a weapon for a good portion of the game, and then shit hit the fan and you still couldn't defend yourself. I had to pretty much run for my life in order to survive, rather than pull out a pistol and dispatch everything; which was great and scared the crap out of me.
Of course later on in the game you got weapons, and that was about the time I started to lose interest in playing.
I had a lot of fun with Dark Corners. It took me five tries before I realized you could bolt the doors shut in the hotel to slow down your ambushers. :x
Re4 was laziness, giving the player the ability to side step and more reasonable manouverability meant that the game would become too easy, so rather than retool all the enemies its simpler to just restrict the players movements.
Same with Doom, if you could use a flashlight and gun at the same time it ruins all their setpieces so they prevent you doing so.
I dislike your use of the word "gimp." Giving the player restrictions is a necessary part of designing good gameplay. The character's abilities should match the game. Just because various game character can slow time, jump several times their height, steal enemy abilities, teleport, and summon demi-gods doesn't mean that the player should be able to do that in every game.
I think a better question would be "Can a game be scary even if the player's character is competent?" And to that question, I'd answer that the threats have to match the character. In Siren, a single level might only have 3-4 enemies and be absolutely terrifying because your character is weak & defenseless. In RE4, since your character is much more competent, you're faced with hordes of enemies along with bosses & mini-bosses (like the chainsaw wielders). The scare factor changes from "I'm just an ordinary person up against the unknown" to "I'm extraordinary, but I'm just 1 person up against a whole army of darkness."
That brings up another complaint, rainbow. In RE5, the gametrailers review said enemies dash towards you and then stop within a few paces and then they shamble towards you. If they sprinted towards Chris with hatchets the whole distance, the game would become impossible. So the game GIMPS the enemies and that confuses the player.
That brings up another complaint, rainbow. In RE5, the gametrailers review said enemies dash towards you and then stop within a few paces and then they shamble towards you. If they sprinted towards Chris with hatchets the whole distance, the game would become impossible. So the game GIMPS the enemies and that confuses the player.
Is this lazy or acceptable?
It's neither. Gimping the enemies in the ways that RE4 and 5 do is a symptom of the controls.
Even having added strafing in RE5, the game feels terribly awkward to actually try to play. Were the enemies able to act like anything actually dangerous might, the games would be extremely difficult, maybe even impossible.
It's exceptionally strange to me and, apparently, others, that the enemies are not dangerous because they're actually much of a threat, they're designed to be extremely passive once they're within a certain range, but because the controls are terrible and the whole game has been designed around the idea that the controls are terrible.
I don't know why this is acceptable to anyone, but the sales figures say everyone should give their games terrible controls.
That makes RE5 a good horror game but a terrible third person shooter?
EDIT: In a way, I can see how modern conveniences can destroy challenge. Imagine if the original Castlevania game had just 3 things added: an inventory, a backdash button, double jumps, etc. but no change in the level design.
That makes RE5 a good horror game but a terrible third person shooter?
N... No? Having awful controls and designing your enemies around it doesn't make your game a good horror game.
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Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
Which is why Dino Crisis is a pain to play. Raptors can gracefully backflip through the air the air and neatly bite you in two, while you're trying to clumsily steer whats-her-face through a door that you keep missing due to tank controls.
Well, if that interview I read is to be believed, they intend to do a major revamp for the next major RE game. I'm not talking about the Zero and REmake + Chronicles 2 on the Wii, I'm talking about the next big bad HD number.
The dude said the next one is going to have to be very different.
Chance on
'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
I always like the very first Alone In The Dark (on the PC) and the GameCube's Eternal Darkness...
But then I have a soft spot for the Chtulhu Mythos, were you know that every creature that you meet is basically not killable by normal weapons.
I guess that those games are more "horror" than "survival"... But then something like Left4Dead or Dead Rising more definitely more "survival" than "horror".
I think that in a way "survival horror" is something that tries to merge the "adventure" (horror) part with an "action" (survival) part, and I don't think it is easy to make an nice equilibrium of those two... It will always end up a bit out of balance; I guess that is why many games feel "horror" in the beginning (because of your limited means of protection/weapons) and that they evolve into the "survival/action" part.
Survival Horror involves a player who is facing opponents physically beyond them that can rarely be killed by coventional means and almost always require some form of weaponry to defeat. In some cases retreat may be the better option to attacking them. Some form of resource management is often involved so wasting ammo on unnecessary confrontations is sometimes a death sentence later. And it should be scary.
Dead Rising is a horror game but theres little emphasis on survival in a traditional sense, its not very easy to die and its not particularly scary, its just a horror themed story.
Resident Evil 4-5 are not survival horror, 5 more so.
For me to enjoy a game as a survival horror I have to feel like my character is vulnerable. For example Resident Evil 5 can be a fun game but doesn't set the right mood for me. Being able to punch a not-zombie and send him flying 10 meters away makes me feel like the predator, not the prey. So to me a game like RE5 is played with a ass-kicking action game mood.
A good survival horror has to creep me out, stress me out, and make me feel a certain anxiety. The Silent Hill games were great for that. I remember in one of the games at one point you are walking down this really long hallway where "something's gonna happen" music that keeps getting more intense as you got closer to the end of it. Nothing ended up happening but the mood was enough to make me anxious about what might happen next.
I also barely remember a game I played a long time ago where you were this helpless little girl. In one of the level I had to constantly run away from this crazy fat rapist lumberjack/viking/butcher/whatever in a theater. I don't recall if the game was good but I did enjoy the feeling of helplessness a lot.
So, for a really good survival horror game, we should play as a guy with no arms or legs who is dropped in a pit filled with monsters. Can't get any more helpless than that! :P
So, for a really good survival horror game, we should play as a guy with no arms or legs who is dropped in a pit filled with monsters. Can't get any more helpless than that! :P
Survival Horror involves a player who is facing opponents physically beyond them that can rarely be killed by coventional means and almost always require some form of weaponry to defeat. In some cases retreat may be the better option to attacking them. Some form of resource management is often involved so wasting ammo on unnecessary confrontations is sometimes a death sentence later. And it should be scary.
Dead Rising is a horror game but theres little emphasis on survival in a traditional sense, its not very easy to die and its not particularly scary, its just a horror themed story.
Resident Evil 4-5 are not survival horror, 5 more so.
If you could turn off levels in Dead Rising, and stay at level 1... I think that it'd be a good fit for Survival Horror. But, as it stands, once you get above level 10... The game is more of an action horror game.
Because there is not even a single RE4 enemy that doesn't rush at you...
And if there were there'd be no way to get out of it's way because the controls are sooo crappy.
Say what you want, Garradors were fucking terrifying. However, the Chainsaw Majini in RE5 beats it, hands down. That horrible psychotic laugh
Do they rush at you, too? I don't even remember if Salvador and the Bella Sisters did.
Oh, he fucking runs at you alright. And when he gets close, he starts laughing maniacally. And he's even scarier than the Salvador, all scrawny and evil and I hate them so much
I always like the very first Alone In The Dark (on the PC) and the GameCube's Eternal Darkness...
If bad controls and AI (and camera angles, and hit detection...) make for good survival horror, then Eternal Darkness is the pinnacle of the genre. Horrifying, I guess.
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AJRSome guy who wrestlesNorwichRegistered Userregular
Mmhmm, I bought Condemned after thorougly enjoying the demos for both games a few weeks ago. It's kinda obvious in the demo of the second one that it goes all crazy with the monstery things.
The second game still has some amazing high points though. It’s just buried under a lot of silliness.
Mmhmm, I bought Condemned after thorougly enjoying the demos for both games a few weeks ago. It's kinda obvious in the demo of the second one that it goes all crazy with the monstery things.
The second game still has some amazing high points though. It’s just buried under a lot of silliness.
Well I beat the game today and am atually intruiged about what happens in the second game now
Yeah, it does seem all silly but it went from fairly real world to crazy demons mostly in the last level and I'm quite curious as to whom he is now after all this
After finishing Condemned, I'd say it's the second scariest game I've ever played, next to Silent Hill 2. So many great parts but the music especially was fantastic, just the little riffs and distortions that play during certian specific parts of the game like
the little musical touches that play as Serial Killer X is asking about how he should kill you, right after that awesome chase scene with him. That chase scene wouldn't have been half as scary without that fucked up, great music. Even after my 10th attempt at that fight it was still scaring me,even though I was weilding a shotgun :P
Excellent game, I'd reccomend it to anyone who enjoys scary, atmospheric, surviving by the skin of your teeth games (but make sure to play it on hard)
first of all those demon-guys are retconned into an illuminati-type organization that controls the whole world with sound waves, the hobos and birds were going crazy because they nailed doodads around the city that kept them awake all night
those metal things on their mouths allow them to use sound like magic powers, incidentally the main character
is an indigo-child type guy who can use the sound powers without the metal implants, you spend most of the latter half of the game and the final boss fight screaming at people until their heads explode
if you don't want to read that, I'll say this: you know how Indigo Prophecy got in the second half?
first of all those demon-guys are retconned into an illuminati-type organization that controls the whole world with sound waves, the hobos and birds were going crazy because they nailed doodads around the city that kept them awake all night
those metal things on their mouths allow them to use sound like magic powers, incidentally the main character
is an indigo-child type guy who can use the sound powers without the metal implants, you spend most of the latter half of the game and the final boss fight screaming at people until their heads explode
if you don't want to read that, I'll say this: you know how Indigo Prophecy got in the second half?
Yeah, it's basically like that.
Aye, I heard about all that from Yhatzee, but it's kinda neat to already know about his own deformity too. I may still give it a shot seeing as the combat is quite satisfying and visceral. I'll just treat this one as Evil Dead 2 compared to Evil Dead 1, eg, the first serious, the second silly :P
first of all those demon-guys are retconned into an illuminati-type organization that controls the whole world with sound waves, the hobos and birds were going crazy because they nailed doodads around the city that kept them awake all night
those metal things on their mouths allow them to use sound like magic powers, incidentally the main character
is an indigo-child type guy who can use the sound powers without the metal implants, you spend most of the latter half of the game and the final boss fight screaming at people until their heads explode
if you don't want to read that, I'll say this: you know how Indigo Prophecy got in the second half?
Yeah, it's basically like that.
Aye, I heard about all that from Yhatzee, but it's kinda neat to already know about his own deformity too. I may still give it a shot seeing as the combat is quite satisfying and visceral. I'll just treat this one as Evil Dead 2 compared to Evil Dead 1, eg, the first serious, the second silly :P
Well that's definitely a constructive way to go about things, yeah.
Also the combat's been tweaked, you can actually collect ammo instead of scavenging firearms and your fists aren't useless anymore. There's also a few scenes that are definitely enough to freak the hell out of you in ways the first game couldn't bother with.
first of all those demon-guys are retconned into an illuminati-type organization that controls the whole world with sound waves, the hobos and birds were going crazy because they nailed doodads around the city that kept them awake all night
those metal things on their mouths allow them to use sound like magic powers, incidentally the main character
is an indigo-child type guy who can use the sound powers without the metal implants, you spend most of the latter half of the game and the final boss fight screaming at people until their heads explode
if you don't want to read that, I'll say this: you know how Indigo Prophecy got in the second half?
Yeah, it's basically like that.
Aye, I heard about all that from Yhatzee, but it's kinda neat to already know about his own deformity too. I may still give it a shot seeing as the combat is quite satisfying and visceral. I'll just treat this one as Evil Dead 2 compared to Evil Dead 1, eg, the first serious, the second silly :P
Well that's definitely a constructive way to go about things, yeah.
Also the combat's been tweaked, you can actually collect ammo instead of scavenging firearms and your fists aren't useless anymore. There's also a few scenes that are definitely enough to freak the hell out of you in ways the first game couldn't bother with.
Hmmhmm, I bought Condemned after loving the combat systems for the demos of both games. I think I'll get Condemned 2 and just crack one liners and such instead of cowering in a corner like I did in the origonal game. Also, I'm giggling remembering a playthrough of someone being chased through a house by a motherfuckin
GRIZZLY BEAR!
Dangit, I think I really want this game now just to rip on it as I play :P
Hotlead Junkie on
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
This. Seriously, I need to buy a new hard drive for my PS3 so I can fit the whole game on there and play through it. I bought it off PSN and realized I didn't have enough space to keep all of it, and I dislike downloading it in episodes and deleting old ones as I play. This game made me uncomfortably scared.
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Kei Makino - Day1/5:03 AM
And for those curious, here's a video from a Siren 2 LP, done by the same guy who did the first LP.
Fujita Shigeru - 5:26 AM
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
I had not one, but two guides on hand at all times, so that cut down on the trial and error somewhat. It also helps to think of the snipers as not much enemies as really violent invisible fences. Go where you're not supposed to and they'll blow you away.
Can a game with perfect controls and an agreeable camera be scary?
I had a lot of fun with Dark Corners. It took me five tries before I realized you could bolt the doors shut in the hotel to slow down your ambushers. :x
Same with Doom, if you could use a flashlight and gun at the same time it ruins all their setpieces so they prevent you doing so.
I think a better question would be "Can a game be scary even if the player's character is competent?" And to that question, I'd answer that the threats have to match the character. In Siren, a single level might only have 3-4 enemies and be absolutely terrifying because your character is weak & defenseless. In RE4, since your character is much more competent, you're faced with hordes of enemies along with bosses & mini-bosses (like the chainsaw wielders). The scare factor changes from "I'm just an ordinary person up against the unknown" to "I'm extraordinary, but I'm just 1 person up against a whole army of darkness."
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Is this lazy or acceptable?
It's neither. Gimping the enemies in the ways that RE4 and 5 do is a symptom of the controls.
Even having added strafing in RE5, the game feels terribly awkward to actually try to play. Were the enemies able to act like anything actually dangerous might, the games would be extremely difficult, maybe even impossible.
It's exceptionally strange to me and, apparently, others, that the enemies are not dangerous because they're actually much of a threat, they're designed to be extremely passive once they're within a certain range, but because the controls are terrible and the whole game has been designed around the idea that the controls are terrible.
I don't know why this is acceptable to anyone, but the sales figures say everyone should give their games terrible controls.
EDIT: In a way, I can see how modern conveniences can destroy challenge. Imagine if the original Castlevania game had just 3 things added: an inventory, a backdash button, double jumps, etc. but no change in the level design.
N... No? Having awful controls and designing your enemies around it doesn't make your game a good horror game.
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Maybe in five or six years at the pace Capcom innovates.
The dude said the next one is going to have to be very different.
I suppose that's better than Bethesda.
But then I have a soft spot for the Chtulhu Mythos, were you know that every creature that you meet is basically not killable by normal weapons.
I guess that those games are more "horror" than "survival"... But then something like Left4Dead or Dead Rising more definitely more "survival" than "horror".
I think that in a way "survival horror" is something that tries to merge the "adventure" (horror) part with an "action" (survival) part, and I don't think it is easy to make an nice equilibrium of those two... It will always end up a bit out of balance; I guess that is why many games feel "horror" in the beginning (because of your limited means of protection/weapons) and that they evolve into the "survival/action" part.
Dead Rising is a horror game but theres little emphasis on survival in a traditional sense, its not very easy to die and its not particularly scary, its just a horror themed story.
Resident Evil 4-5 are not survival horror, 5 more so.
A good survival horror has to creep me out, stress me out, and make me feel a certain anxiety. The Silent Hill games were great for that. I remember in one of the games at one point you are walking down this really long hallway where "something's gonna happen" music that keeps getting more intense as you got closer to the end of it. Nothing ended up happening but the mood was enough to make me anxious about what might happen next.
I also barely remember a game I played a long time ago where you were this helpless little girl. In one of the level I had to constantly run away from this crazy fat rapist lumberjack/viking/butcher/whatever in a theater. I don't recall if the game was good but I did enjoy the feeling of helplessness a lot.
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Is there ammo management?
If you could turn off levels in Dead Rising, and stay at level 1... I think that it'd be a good fit for Survival Horror. But, as it stands, once you get above level 10... The game is more of an action horror game.
Alien vs Predator 2.
Really, a game ceases to be survival horror if you're the monster. There's not much survival horror involved if you're the unstoppable terror.
Not so! I was terrified while playing AvP2 as a little skittering facehugger. That cigar the captain threw down the drain almost burnt me!
Say what you want, Garradors were fucking terrifying. However, the Chainsaw Majini in RE5 beats it, hands down. That horrible psychotic laugh
Do they rush at you, too? I don't even remember if Salvador and the Bella Sisters did.
Oh, he fucking runs at you alright. And when he gets close, he starts laughing maniacally. And he's even scarier than the Salvador, all scrawny and evil and I hate them so much
they're also a lot harder to kill.
If bad controls and AI (and camera angles, and hit detection...) make for good survival horror, then Eternal Darkness is the pinnacle of the genre. Horrifying, I guess.
The second game still has some amazing high points though. It’s just buried under a lot of silliness.
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Well I beat the game today and am atually intruiged about what happens in the second game now
After finishing Condemned, I'd say it's the second scariest game I've ever played, next to Silent Hill 2. So many great parts but the music especially was fantastic, just the little riffs and distortions that play during certian specific parts of the game like
Excellent game, I'd reccomend it to anyone who enjoys scary, atmospheric, surviving by the skin of your teeth games (but make sure to play it on hard)
You really want to know?
if you don't want to read that, I'll say this: you know how Indigo Prophecy got in the second half?
Yeah, it's basically like that.
Aye, I heard about all that from Yhatzee, but it's kinda neat to already know about his own deformity too. I may still give it a shot seeing as the combat is quite satisfying and visceral. I'll just treat this one as Evil Dead 2 compared to Evil Dead 1, eg, the first serious, the second silly :P
Well that's definitely a constructive way to go about things, yeah.
Also the combat's been tweaked, you can actually collect ammo instead of scavenging firearms and your fists aren't useless anymore. There's also a few scenes that are definitely enough to freak the hell out of you in ways the first game couldn't bother with.
You fight against tar monsters that plague Ethan’s mind.
You fight giant mechanical monsters you have to destroy with a magical crossbow.
You gain the ability to superscream people to death.
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Hmmhmm, I bought Condemned after loving the combat systems for the demos of both games. I think I'll get Condemned 2 and just crack one liners and such instead of cowering in a corner like I did in the origonal game. Also, I'm giggling remembering a playthrough of someone being chased through a house by a motherfuckin
Dangit, I think I really want this game now just to rip on it as I play :P
This. Seriously, I need to buy a new hard drive for my PS3 so I can fit the whole game on there and play through it. I bought it off PSN and realized I didn't have enough space to keep all of it, and I dislike downloading it in episodes and deleting old ones as I play. This game made me uncomfortably scared.
you left out the part that made me literally scream "OH SHIT."
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