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Atlas Shrugged: Objectivism's Revival in Response to Obama and the Economy

HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
edited April 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
I'm tired of reading about this.

Here's the jist of it: Sales of Atlas Shrugged are off the charts, and millions are proclaiming Ayn Rand as the new Nostradamus, constantly threatening to 'go Galt.'

I don't really have the full knowledge to discuss this in great depth, but I would like to see some intelligent throw-down on this issue. Thus, I started this thread.

My thoughts: This is fully ridiculous, and to me just feels like the right-wing alternative to moving to Europe/Canada/Where ever from the last 8 years. It's a lot of threat and fervor, but nothing will ever come of it.

How many of these people are really in positions that are high enough to actually effect anything? If millions of small business owners close up shop, what do they do afterwards? I seriously doubt most of these people have the reserves to just drop off the grid for a year or two so they can bask in their delusions while they wait for their country burn. If they do, won't a new wave just spring up to replace them?

I completely understand the taxation issues with some small businesses and other private industries, but to just say 'I give up'?

I think my biggest issue here is the way that Rand characterizes her powerful capitalists as if the entire world rode upon their shoulders, and as if those remaining in the modern world without them are just powerless, mindless sheep who won't be able to rise and start enterprises of her own. She assumes the vast, outstanding majority of people are just rubes with no drive or sense of purpose to right themselves. That the world needs a driving class of power-hungry businessmen. I feel as if this new revivalist movement is waving that banner as well, and assuming they have the only real power. Isn't that the same fucked-up attitude that got us into a lot of our problems? Aren't those same corrupt CEOs and bankers marching right along with these new objectivist converts?

In my opinion, Objectivism should have been totally discarded and forgotten long ago, as the heart of it proves totally incompatible with Globalization. Globalization, which is an obvious step of industrialization. Original Randian Objectivism rode on the assumptions that the Cold War would last forever, and that America could still thrive as a semi-isolationist territory. When your philosophy doesn't account for human nature or morality, I guess it's only a matter of time before it's utterly obsolete.

I kind of wish she was around today to continue her policy of debasing the GOP for chasing the religious vote, and to continue to constantly criticize the religious right. I think a portion of her new followers would be largely discouraged by her championing of atheism.

HadjiQuest on
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    God, I wish the current batch of executives would "go Galt."

    However, given how much they're massively overpaid and how little they pay in taxes, why would they ever do that?

    Thanatos on
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    NocturneNocturne Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    God, I wish the current batch of executives would "go Galt."

    However, given how much they're massively overpaid and how little they pay in taxes, why would they ever do that?

    You mean conservatives are going to throw a tantrum and threaten stupid shit if anything challenges the system that is currently giving them everything at the expense of others?

    I would never have expected that.

    Also someone needs to post that flower toiling in the sun comic.

    Nocturne on
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    descdesc Goretexing to death Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    HadjiQuest wrote: »
    but I would like to see some intelligent throw-down on this issue. Thus, I started this thread.

    Do we have to do this? I think you can summarize Objectivism like this:

    When you speak with an objectivist, read a review of Rand's books, or read a forum post, you hear a common comment repeated, "My philosophy teacher in HS/College never showed me this!"

    Yeah, there's a reason for that. Because you're in that class to read REAL PHILOSOPHY.

    desc on
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    SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Augh, jesus, I just threw up in my mouth a little.

    Basically, objectivism is based around the fact that some people are better than others, and the people who are better can do anything, the people who are worse can do nothing, and the can-do's should do their thing and the can't-do's should die.

    Of course, this is all objectively false, so the whole thing falls apart.

    SageinaRage on
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    thisisntwallythisisntwally Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Where exactly do these people plan to retreat to? This is stupid.

    thisisntwally on
    #someshit
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    MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    It looks like it's not up on Youtube by itself, but the Daily show had a wonderful bit the other day pointing to a website of a guy advocating for a work slowdown by all the talented, useful people in America just to show us proles how much they do for us every day.

    They go on to point out the notice on the page in which he indicates he is looking for work.

    Honestly, go ahead, guys. Michelle Malkin? Please stop working. There's even an outside chance someone reasonable will take your place.

    MrMonroe on
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    werehippywerehippy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    atlass.gif

    werehippy on
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Where exactly do these people plan to retreat to? This is stupid.
    Maybe a true haven of free-market capitalism, like Somalia.

    Thanatos on
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    PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    The thing I never got about "going Galt" is that it goes against the very free market values that these republicans seem to value so much. If they "go galt," wouldn't others just step up to supply the demand?

    Podly on
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    descdesc Goretexing to death Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    No, because everyone else is too much of a callow parasite on society to actually step up and supply the demand.

    desc on
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    CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Well I hope the Bioshock movie is really well done.

    Cantido on
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Cantido wrote: »
    Well I hope the Bioshock movie is really well done.
    They're making a Bioshock movie? Awesome.

    Thanatos on
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    PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    desc wrote: »
    No, because everyone else is too much of a callow parasite on society to actually step up and supply the demand.

    Oh so they are anti-democracy then?

    It's what I hate about the Republicans so much. They have absolutely no coherency whatsoever.





    Well



    Besides hate. I guess hate is the sole coherent bond between Republican policies.

    Podly on
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    NocturneNocturne Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Shamelessly stolen from SE++'s youtube thread, because it is amazing and belongs here as well.

    Mike Rowe says Ayn Rand can suck castrated sheep nuts.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc

    Nocturne on
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    werehippywerehippy Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    Well I hope the Bioshock movie is really well done.
    They're making a Bioshock movie? Awesome.

    They're making an everything movie. Until they have people on site and shooting I wouldn't count it as solid.

    werehippy on
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    SpoonySpoony Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Much of this problem stems from the quaint Libertarian idea that one can just drop off the grid at this point in society. "Going Galt" would require a detachment from society that virtually none of the people threatening to do it could possibly do. No small business owner or middle manager is going to leave their comfortable life to eek out a living subsistence farming in Montana.

    The meme of rugged individualism is probably strongest in Objectivists and Libertarians, but there's almost no realistic way to do it at this point unless you want to move to the middle of nowhere in a third world nation. Does anybody seriously think that an accountant or a consultant is going to hang up their tie and pick up a shovel for anything other than their backyard flower garden? Even with outlandish taxation, it's still better to get paid a million dollars than thirty thousand and they bloody well know it.

    Rand is basically Derrida for conservatives.

    Spoony on
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Man the film quality on that Youtube video is awesome.

    This is just a bunch of self-important yuppies being dickheads. There's no way in hell that these people are going to, what, set up their own little society composed entirely of god-men? Is that about the size of it?

    There's no way they're going to do it. As somebody in Bioshock said, somebody's still got to clean the shitters. And they're too up their own asses to do it.

    Duffel on
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    xa52xa52 Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    God, I wish the current batch of executives would "go Galt."

    However, given how much they're massively overpaid and how little they pay in taxes, why would they ever do that?

    I look forward to this like I look forward to the rapture- it would be nice to be rid of all the pricks, but it will never actually happen.

    xa52 on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Objectivism is against basically everything that Obama stands for.

    Fencingsax on
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    HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    Well I hope the Bioshock movie is really well done.
    They're making a Bioshock movie? Awesome.

    They're actually still trying to hammer out an Atlas Shrugged movie, as well.

    The Bioshock movie is set for 2010, and the Atlas Shrugged movie is (much more tentatively) set for 2011.

    HadjiQuest on
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    CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    When Will Atlas Shrug?

    Please do. More good-natured human beings will be happy to replace you. Skilled human beings who have tasted poverty.

    Cantido on
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    PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Spoony wrote: »
    Rand is basically Derrida for conservatives.

    :|

    Podly on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited March 2009
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Objectivism is against basically everything that Obama stands for.

    Well it's ok with darkies. That's one.

    Organichu on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    It looks like it's not up on Youtube by itself, but the Daily show had a wonderful bit the other day pointing to a website of a guy advocating for a work slowdown by all the talented, useful people in America just to show us proles how much they do for us every day.

    They go on to point out the notice on the page in which he indicates he is looking for work.

    Honestly, go ahead, guys. Michelle Malkin? Please stop working. There's even an outside chance someone reasonable will take your place.

    Colbert Report

    moniker on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Thanatos wrote: »
    God, I wish the current batch of executives would "go Galt."

    However, given how much they're massively overpaid and how little they pay in taxes, why would they ever do that?

    I just wish they would have done it years ago and saved us all a bunch of heartache.

    moniker on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I don't understand this whole thing, aren't we talking about returning to clinton era taxation? How is that declaring a war on success?

    And aren't most of the people who are wetting themselves over this middle class? Don't they realize that the only other alternative is increasing their taxes by a vast amount?

    override367 on
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    PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I don't understand this whole thing, aren't we talking about returning to clinton era taxation? How is that declaring a war on success?

    And aren't most of the people who are wetting themselves over this middle class? Don't they realize that the only other alternative is increasing their taxes by a vast amount?

    I'm trying to find it, but I once saw a statistic which said something like 30% of Americans who are not in the top 25% income bracket believe themselves to be, and something like 40% of Americans believe that they will one day be in the top 10% income bracket.

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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I don't understand this whole thing, aren't we talking about returning to clinton era taxation? How is that declaring a war on success?

    And aren't most of the people who are wetting themselves over this middle class? Don't they realize that the only other alternative is increasing their taxes by a vast amount?

    And they're not actually going on strike or withdrawing from society. They're doing stupid things like mailing tea bags to Congress and deciding they won't pay their income taxes.

    In short, Michelle Malkin is their leader. Think about that.

    enlightenedbum on
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    HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I don't understand this whole thing, aren't we talking about returning to clinton era taxation? How is that declaring a war on success?

    And aren't most of the people who are wetting themselves over this middle class? Don't they realize that the only other alternative is increasing their taxes by a vast amount?

    I think a lot of people are out of touch because they've been subscribing to the GOP's snake oil model and methods for so long. They've been constantly promised lower and lower taxes, and somehow that masks all the other problems it creates.

    HadjiQuest on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Well right but, as someone who has his income stretched as far as it will go, I would willingly accept a tax increase of some kind because the country is in the shitter. At a certain point I think people are just selfish as all hell.

    override367 on
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Well right but, as someone who has his income stretched as far as it will go, I would willingly accept a tax increase of some kind because the country is in the shitter. At a certain point I think people are just selfish as all hell.

    Right, and Ayn Rand tells you that your selfishness really makes you a paragon of reality. Thus the appeal.

    enlightenedbum on
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    PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I also literally stay awake at night, wracking my brain trying to figure out how republicans claim both Christianity and Randian Objectivity.

    If you subscribe to Ayn Rand, you can't be a god damn christian!

    Podly on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I think examining the regression in popular conservative thought since Buckley would be an interesting subject for a longformat essay.

    I mean, from the time he was really influential we've gone back through trickle down, doing away with social security, and now we're back far enough that Ayn Rand is relevant again.

    One wonders if in a few years they'll be arguing that the fed is unconstitutional, or that the states should get to negotiate treaties independently.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    And they're not actually going on strike or withdrawing from society. They're doing stupid things like mailing tea bags to Congress and deciding they won't pay their income taxes.

    In short, Michelle Malkin is their leader. Think about that.

    I read up on this person, I wish I hadn't, it dropped my faith in humanity a notch
    Podly wrote: »
    I also literally stay awake at night, wracking my brain trying to figure out how republicans claim both Christianity and Randian Objectivity.

    If you subscribe to Ayn Rand, you can't be a god damn christian!


    Yea and Jesus was a socialist hippy and yet the conservative christian movement is vehemently opposed to welfare

    override367 on
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    HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Podly wrote: »
    I also literally stay awake at night, wracking my brain trying to figure out how republicans claim both Christianity and Randian Objectivity.

    If you subscribe to Ayn Rand, you can't be a god damn christian!

    There are a lot of people who take what they like from something, and then just ignore the rest.

    But, you already knew that.

    HadjiQuest on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited March 2009
    Podly wrote: »
    I also literally stay awake at night, wracking my brain trying to figure out how republicans claim both Christianity and Randian Objectivity.

    If you subscribe to Ayn Rand, you can't be a god damn christian!

    Their eyes probably glaze over during the Godless parts.

    Organichu on
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    JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Nocturne wrote: »
    Shamelessly stolen from SE++'s youtube thread, because it is amazing and belongs here as well.

    Mike Rowe says Ayn Rand can suck castrated sheep nuts.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc[url][/url]

    I wouldn't say it's necessarily as cut and dry as him saying that Rand can suck it, but that was an excellent listen nonetheless.

    Jragghen on
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    NocturneNocturne Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Nocturne wrote: »
    Shamelessly stolen from SE++'s youtube thread, because it is amazing and belongs here as well.

    Mike Rowe says Ayn Rand can suck castrated sheep nuts.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc[url][/url]

    I wouldn't say it's necessarily as cut and dry as him saying that Rand can suck it, but that was an excellent listen nonetheless.

    Yeah that sentence was added by me.

    Nocturne on
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    psychotixpsychotix __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2009
    Nocturne wrote: »
    Shamelessly stolen from SE++'s youtube thread, because it is amazing and belongs here as well.

    Mike Rowe says Ayn Rand can suck castrated sheep nuts.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc

    lol, nice find

    psychotix on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Well, the point of TED is kind of to demonstrate that Rand was a dumbass who knew nothing, among other things.

    Fencingsax on
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