I'm getting pretty wary about "leaked numbers on NeoGAF" now, after the most recent incident of someone release leaked NPD results that ended up being false.
For what it's worth, people who would seem to be in the position to know seem to believe this particular leak. Still impossible to be sure, of course.
Also, I think the conversation/debate regarding 3rd party Wii games has shifted and narrowed. It's clear that many Wii games sell well. It's just a matter of:
1. First party or third?
2. Existing franchise or new IP
3. Target audience (casual or hardcore)
4. Budget involved
5. Overall quality
Who is having a "conversation" about "3rd party" Wii games besides 360 fanboys?
I think we know pretty well how these factors work. If you have a "hardcore" "existing IP" "high budget" "high quality" game you should put it on the PS360 with a possible DS or Wii version, then you advertise the fuck out of it. If any of those things are missing, there is far too much risk to do anything but put it on the Wii or DS.
If anyone disagrees then it falls to them to explain why every western 3rd party publisher besides Ubisoft is breaking even on non-MMO games at best.
Oh and ignore 1st/3rd party distinction because it probably doesn't even exist for consumers.
And you should take a break from moving those goal posts around. It's hard work. Further, the rising tide of the Wii install base will eventually catch up wherever you put them.
Take a hint from your friends in PR and just stop mentioning the Wii.
Much easier.
And you could stop taking it so personally whenever anyone attempts to look at both the positives and negatives for Wii-related sales?
I know, I was thinking the same exact thing. Why is it that lowly takes everything I say about Wii sales to be somehow negative, and tries to tie back to some sort of anti-Nintendo/pro-MS bias? "Take a hint from your friends in PR" ... really? Really?
As for who is having the conversation about Wii 3rd party sales, we were. I was responding to what Rehab and other folks were discussing. I don't see either how anything I posted was a knock on Nintendo, nor is it even about "moving the goal posts" around. Again, not everything in this thread should be about the "console warz". We've had plenty of good discussions just about the business side of things. We already know who has "won" the system sales (Nintendo), so can we move on?
Anyway, moving on ... attach rate alone is one of those metrics that's much over-used. With context, it makes a lot more sense and becomes more meaningful.
Now we're gonna get super-crazy, average games purchased per console per week.
Wii: .1515 (1 game every 6.48 weeks)
PS3: .137 (1 game every 7.29 weeks)
I don't have the 360's attach rate handy but I can ballpark it; AR of 8.1 (last known but very old AR) is 1 game every 9 weeks, AR of 9 (generous upper limit I would say) is a game every 8.2 weeks. Which I don't think is that shocking given the 360's relative age.
Another problem that I just realized when it comes to attach rate ... what counts as a title? Do downloadable games (Xbox LIVE Arcade, PSN, WiiWare) count? What do the platform holders consider?
My guess is that they'll use whatever metric looks the best, which means including those games ... but it's hard to tell for sure unless they outright say so. It also makes it more of an apples-to-oranges comparison since each of the systems started doing downloadable titles at different times, and the portables currently don't support it.
I'm pretty sure its retail only, considering we get the tie ratios from NPD who don't track the downloadable games at all.
Also even with other numbers to back them up Tie Ratio is still stupid. It's the Saves of the video game sales statline. Impressive looking but meaningless.
Another problem that I just realized when it comes to attach rate ... what counts as a title? Do downloadable games (Xbox LIVE Arcade, PSN, WiiWare) count? What do the platform holders consider?
The Wii and PS3 figures are coming from their financial reports and only count retail games sold. This also means no bundled games are included, so Wii Sports doesn't count as a game purchase in the US and EU (but does in Japan since it's sold separately) and whatever bundled software Sony offers doesn't count either. You could make a case that the Wii figure is inflated because of Wii Play, which alone accounts for 0.44 of the Wii's AR.
The 360 rate is from their PR since figures aren't given in their financial report but I doubt they'd included Live Arcade games, anyway I know Nintendo every once in a while will drop the VC software figure when reaching certain milestones so that can be done separately.
And really, at this point, the Wii has become a cultural phenomenon to such an extent that a lack of games isn't going to drop sales of its core system and games like Wii Play, etc etc.
And really, at this point, the Wii has become a cultural phenomenon to such an extent that a lack of games isn't going to drop sales of its core system and games like Wii Play, etc etc.
What lack of games are you talking about?
The lack of AAA titles that the Wii had in most of 2008.
You should read thru threads for context in what was said...
walerian on
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. - Winston Churchill
Another problem that I just realized when it comes to attach rate ... what counts as a title? Do downloadable games (Xbox LIVE Arcade, PSN, WiiWare) count? What do the platform holders consider?
The Wii and PS3 figures are coming from their financial reports and only count retail games sold. This also means no bundled games are included, so Wii Sports doesn't count as a game purchase in the US and EU (but does in Japan since it's sold separately) and whatever bundled software Sony offers doesn't count either. You could make a case that the Wii figure is inflated because of Wii Play, which alone accounts for 0.44 of the Wii's AR.
The 360 rate is from their PR since figures aren't given in their financial report but I doubt they'd included Live Arcade games, anyway I know Nintendo every once in a while will drop the VC software figure when reaching certain milestones so that can be done separately.
I've seen the 360 attach rate (and obviously I can't share it with you guys), but I don't recall if it included Arcade games. I dunno, it seems like a weird metric when attach rate"represents how many complementary products are sold for each primary product", but that in this instance it only counts retail and not digital. A product is a product. Certainly the platform holders know how many retail and online titles they have sold. To a publisher/developer potentially interested in both retail and online distribution, the distinction may not be that important. Sure, the platform holder could break out retail versus online attach, but the latter is extremely confidential so I can easily see them only wanting to announce the combined rate.
That said, I do agree that outside sources like NPD only have access to retail data.
Anyway, lets move on. Unconfirmed numbers from GAF, not been refuted yet but they look alright. Interesting to discuss regardless.
Guys, didn't DMk post this exact same list in the last thread, and nothing here has changed at all?
Yep. We've come full circle. DMK posted them here, I shared them in plat chat thread, Krunch put them on the front page, and GAF found them there. And then someone on CAG saw the numbers on GAF and posted them in the CAG thread
The CAG thread that DMK got them from has more numbers now, for those curious
So basically what you're saying is internet-->GAF-->internet?:winky:
Another problem that I just realized when it comes to attach rate ... what counts as a title? Do downloadable games (Xbox LIVE Arcade, PSN, WiiWare) count? What do the platform holders consider?
The Wii and PS3 figures are coming from their financial reports and only count retail games sold. This also means no bundled games are included, so Wii Sports doesn't count as a game purchase in the US and EU (but does in Japan since it's sold separately) and whatever bundled software Sony offers doesn't count either. You could make a case that the Wii figure is inflated because of Wii Play, which alone accounts for 0.44 of the Wii's AR.
The 360 rate is from their PR since figures aren't given in their financial report but I doubt they'd included Live Arcade games, anyway I know Nintendo every once in a while will drop the VC software figure when reaching certain milestones so that can be done separately.
I've seen the 360 attach rate (and obviously I can't share it with you guys), but I don't recall if it included Arcade games. I dunno, it seems like a weird metric when attach rate"represents how many complementary products are sold for each primary product", but that in this instance it only counts retail and not digital. A product is a product. Certainly the platform holders know how many retail and online titles they have sold. To a publisher/developer potentially interested in both retail and online distribution, the distinction may not be that important. Sure, the platform holder could break out retail versus online attach, but the latter is extremely confidential so I can easily see them only wanting to announce the combined rate.
That said, I do agree that outside sources like NPD only have access to retail data.
What's stupid is there is no point to that data being 'secret' other than pride.
Another problem that I just realized when it comes to attach rate ... what counts as a title? Do downloadable games (Xbox LIVE Arcade, PSN, WiiWare) count? What do the platform holders consider?
The Wii and PS3 figures are coming from their financial reports and only count retail games sold. This also means no bundled games are included, so Wii Sports doesn't count as a game purchase in the US and EU (but does in Japan since it's sold separately) and whatever bundled software Sony offers doesn't count either. You could make a case that the Wii figure is inflated because of Wii Play, which alone accounts for 0.44 of the Wii's AR.
The 360 rate is from their PR since figures aren't given in their financial report but I doubt they'd included Live Arcade games, anyway I know Nintendo every once in a while will drop the VC software figure when reaching certain milestones so that can be done separately.
I've seen the 360 attach rate (and obviously I can't share it with you guys), but I don't recall if it included Arcade games. I dunno, it seems like a weird metric when attach rate"represents how many complementary products are sold for each primary product", but that in this instance it only counts retail and not digital. A product is a product. Certainly the platform holders know how many retail and online titles they have sold. To a publisher/developer potentially interested in both retail and online distribution, the distinction may not be that important. Sure, the platform holder could break out retail versus online attach, but the latter is extremely confidential so I can easily see them only wanting to announce the combined rate.
That said, I do agree that outside sources like NPD only have access to retail data.
What's stupid is there is no point to that data being 'secret' other than pride.
From me? It's actually not wanting to be fired.
If you mean companies keeping attach rate and online sales data private, it's all about competitive advantage. Those who need to know the data do have access to it, through private meetings and such. But Sony doesn't want MS to know its numbers and vice versa. Competitive intelligence is a pretty interesting part of the industry. Maybe I'm biased, but it seems weird that the games industry seems to be much more secretive than other industries.
Perhaps you're right though ... the data doesn't really mean that much in the end. And maybe the industry as a whole would benefit more if everyone shared all of their data openly?
That's what I mean. It really won't hurt or help the company, because everybody already knows what games do well and what games do horrible. The horse left the barn a long time ago but everyone likes to pretend the door is still closed.
I bolded the relevant part here. 6 months is not an insignificant amount of time in a console life span, especially when it involves the Christmas Season. Dig a little deeper into your facts next time.
But see, I saw that the dates were relevant and included them for that reason. Seeing as how they were right next to, even prefacing the numbers, I didn't feel much of a need to highlight them. The intent was not to mislead anyone with dyslexia or an inability to put things into context using very basic arithmetic, hoping that these people wouldn't be able to see past my cunning ruse; it was merely to show that the greater overall number of Wii games sold should indicate that there is a good deal of potential for third parties to do well. That was it.
And yeah, I could have done a bit more looking around but it was meant as a quick post to show that the people in the Invisible Wall video were talking out their asses. I didn't exactly plan on expanding on any of that for use in a thesis paper.
No, I don't have the numbers, I'm just an interested bystander perusing this thread and get angered at blatant attempts to bias opinions with falsified facts.
My attempt was so blatant that my only crime was using slightly outdated facts (not falsified) from Wiki because I was too lazy to put much more effort into an argument about video game sales on the internet. I hope that you're super pissed.
Gave up on trying to find a Wii in stock a long time ago? You may want to give it another shot, as apparently Nintendo has finally caught up with demand. In an interview with Gamasutra, GameStop vice president of marketing Bob McKenzie (who's been making the rounds lately) said they're now seeing a consistently sufficient supply of Wiis in their stores across the U.S.
"I think finally we've gotten to the point where we're going to be able to get a real good run rate on this thing," McKenzie said. "You know, three years later, we finally have enough inventory on the shelf, and we've got a couple of weeks in supply of this. That's good because we can finally determine and gauge it before we get into the fourth holiday season." Yes, that's right -- it only took Nintendo three years to finally figure out how to make enough Wiis to meet demand. Better late than never, we suppose?
In another interesting tidbit, McKenzie also admitted that he was somewhat surprised by the success of Wii Fit, saying, "we weren't sure if that was really gonna be successful or not, and to be honest I don't think Nintendo really knew how successful that would be." Clearly, it turned out to be very successful.
According to Korean news site Chosun Online, Sony has ceased supplying South Korea with PS3s for the time being in order to prevent Japanese tourists from picking up the console at a cheaper price point.
"We are troubled by 'reverse-importing', which is when products exported into South Korea are flown back into Japan," said a Sony employee.
With the depreciating South Korean Won and the strong Japanese Yen, South Korea is an even more attractive shopping destination for Japanese shoppers. The PS3 prices at 448,000 won in South Korea, and it goes for around ¥39,900 in Japan.
Since Korea offers lower retail prices, the Japanese have traditionally visited the Korean Peninsula to pick up luxury items such as designer bags at "discount" prices. However, South Korea and Japan use different voltage frequencies with the nominal voltage for South Korea being 220/380 and being 100/200 for Japan. Those picking up a Korean PS3 for Japan will need a converter.
The PLAYSTATION 3 launched in South Korea on June 16, 2007. Only the 80GB version was available at launch.
Resident Evil 5’ remains at the top of the All Formats Chart this week despite a 52% drop in sales following its highly successful launch.
Nintendo are also a non-mover at No2 with ‘Wii Fit’ (-9%) enjoying a prolonged period of steady sell through. At launch ‘Resident Evil 5’ outsold ‘Wii Fit’ by 5 to 1, but in its second week the gap has narrowed to 2.7 to 1. Nintendo also chart at No3 with ‘Professor Layton’ up one place to No3 from No4. This week’s highest new entry goes to THQ and ‘WWE Legends of Wrestlemania’, new at No4 with sales split relatively evenly across PS3 and Xbox 360. After 2 Grand Theft Auto games on PSP, Rockstar’s iconic franchise arrives on DS this week for the first time. ‘Grand Theft Auto: Chinatown Wars’ is new at No6, selling around half of previous handheld GTA title GTA: Vice City Stories’ launch week. A retailer promotion on ‘Street Fighter IV’ (+48%) helps it re-enter the Top 10, up from No13 to No7, giving Capcom two Top 10 games this week.
However, Nintendo make it 3 Top 10 games thanks to the Mother’s Day promoted, turquoise DS Lite Starter Pack, which shoots ‘Brain Training’ (+117%) back into the Top 10, up from No21 to No8. There are 3 new releases that don’t make the Top 10 – ‘Singstar Queen’ at No22, ‘Scrabble Interactive: 2009 Edition’ at No27 and ‘Madworld’ at No34.
1 1 RESIDENT EVIL 5 XB360 CAPCOM CAPCOM
2 2 RESIDENT EVIL 5 PS3 CAPCOM CAPCOM
3 3 WII FIT WII NINTENDO NINTENDO
4 4 PROFESSOR LAYTON AND THE CURIOUS VILLAGE DS NINTENDO NINTENDO - 5 GRAND THEFT AUTO: CHINATOWN WARS DS ROCKSTAR TAKE 2
16 6 DR KAWASHIMA'S BRAIN TRAINING DS NINTENDO NINTENDO
5 7 KILLZONE 2 PS3 SONY COMPUTER ENT. SONY COMPUTER ENT.
- 8 WWE LEGENDS OF WRESTLEMANIA PS3 THQ THQ
- 9 WWE LEGENDS OF WRESTLEMANIA XB360 THQ THQ
23 10 PUZZLER COLLECTION DS GAMES FOR EVERYONE UBISOFT
12 11 WII PLAY WII NINTENDO NINTENDO
24 12 STREET FIGHTER IV PS3 CAPCOM CAPCOM
6 13 TOM CLANCY'S H.A.W.X. XB360 UBISOFT UBISOFT
15 14 MY FITNESS COACH WII GAMES FOR EVERYONE UBISOFT
8 15 EMPIRE: TOTAL WAR PC SEGA SEGA
7 16 TOM CLANCY'S H.A.W.X. PS3 UBISOFT UBISOFT
9 17 HALO WARS XB360 MICROSOFT MICROSOFT
18 18 STREET FIGHTER IV XB360 CAPCOM CAPCOM
14 19 CLUB PENGUIN: ELITE PENGUIN FORCE DS DISNEY INTERACTIVE STUDIOS DISNEY INTERACTIVE STUDIOS
21 20 SONIC AND THE BLACK KNIGHT WII SEGA SEGA
11 21 MARIO POWER TENNIS WII NINTENDO NINTENDO
22 22 MARIO KART WII WII NINTENDO NINTENDO
- 23 SCRABBLE INTERACTIVE: 2009 EDITION DS GAMES FOR EVERYONE UBISOFT
10 24 SOCOM: US NAVY SEALS CONFRONTATION PS3 SONY COMPUTER ENT. SONY COMPUTER ENT.
19 25 MYSTERY CASE FILES: MILLIONHEIR DS NINTENDO NINTENDO
17 26 CALL OF DUTY: WORLD AT WAR XB360 ACTIVISION ACTIVISION BLIZZARD
- 27 MORE BRAIN TRAINING FROM DR KAWASHIMA DS NINTENDO NINTENDO
13 28 MARIO & SONIC AT THE OLYMPIC GAMES WII SEGA SEGA
- 29 MADWORLD WII SEGA SEGA
25 30 FIFA 09 XB360 EA SPORTS ELECTRONIC ARTS
- 31 CALL OF DUTY 4: MODERN WARFARE XB360 ACTIVISION ACTIVISION BLIZZARD
37 32 100 CLASSIC BOOK COLLECTION DS NINTENDO NINTENDO
- 33 SINGSTAR QUEEN PS2 SONY COMPUTER ENT. SONY COMPUTER ENT.
29 34 MARIO KART DS DS NINTENDO NINTENDO
20 35 THE HOUSE OF THE DEAD: OVERKILL WII SEGA SEGA
26 36 GRAND THEFT AUTO IV XB360 ROCKSTAR TAKE 2
- 37 BIG BRAIN ACADEMY DS NINTENDO NINTENDO
30 38 NEW SUPER MARIO BROS. DS NINTENDO NINTENDO
27 39 SEGA MEGA DRIVE ULTIMATE COLLECTION XB360 SEGA SEGA
32 40 FIFA 09 PS3 EA SPORTS ELECTRONIC ARTS
Actually I want to argue that attach rates are an important metric and not just in a relative sense.
It's just that they are important from a financial perspective for the platform holders. The attach rate goes a long way to determining profitability of the console, especially for those that are sold at a loss.
After all, the number of blades sold per razor is important in the razor + blades business model.
Furthermore, even the 1st/3rd party split of the attach rate is important in this sense: Each first party game represents more (marginal) profit than the licensing fee from a 3rd party game.
So from Nintendo's point of view, if they have a very similar attach rate to the PS3 but a lot of that is made up of 1st party games that's all to the good. It just means that their 1st party developers are doing a good job making games and their marketing dept. is doing a good job of selling them. Furthermore, it seems that a good number of these 1st party games are driving Wii sales to unheard of heights.
Conversely, from a 3rd party's point of view the fact that Nintendo's own games make a large fraction of the attach rate is not really relevant because, again, it isn't even a distinction that consumers make and they have to compete against those Nintendo titles if they make Wii games or stick to PS360 games.
Valid reasons for 3rd parties not making Wii games include the fact that they feel they don't understand the Wii's install base well enough to make a game for them, their game concept won't fit on the Wii's hardware and on and on. It just doesn't include the fact that the Wii's 3rd party attach rate is low.
lowlylowlycook on
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
I will say, I saw an ad for a Wii bundled with Mad World and House of the Dead for £190, and was tempted.
Also saw an ad for Chinatown Wars, which seemed strange, but I hope sells well because it's rather good.
Yeah, most people don't even care about if it's first party or third. Notice how Nintendo doesn't even bother with a "ONLY ON" marker on their games anymore?
The console hardware market leader never bothers.
Sony didn't generally put "Only on the Playstation 2" on any of their 1st party games last generation (I only say "generally" since to be honest I can't recall any at all, but there may have been a handful at launch that did).
Now that they're dead last in hardware sales, every single Sony 1st party game is emblazoned with "Only on Playstation" on the front.
I'd also say that the distinction between 1st and 3rd parties becomes more distinct on consoles that aren't dominating the market, since there are far fewer 3rd party exclusives to be had. The PS3 is once again a prime example, since if you're not looking to use it as a Blu-Ray player the only game-related reasons for a 360 owner to pick up a PS3 are the 1st party exclusives.
Well, and Valkyria Chronicles, but that's unfortunately not much of a system seller.
Wicker's pretty much got it, though I'd say that assumes Sony drops the price on the PS3 sometime this year. The way things are going, it's very possible they won't.
I would imagine Ninty will announce a huge game for Christmas 09 at this year's E3, especially given the disappointments that last year's Holiday lineup was. I'm sure that will boost sales and keep momentum going.
Cameron_Talley on
Switch Friend Code: SW-4598-4278-8875
3DS Friend Code: 0404-6826-4588 PM if you add.
I knew I forgot one. That's one of the few lone exceptions, though, and seems driven more by the oddball auteur quirks of Kojima than any business-related decision.
Wicker's pretty much got it, though I'd say that assumes Sony drops the price on the PS3 sometime this year. The way things are going, it's very possible they won't.
If they don't drop their price at all this year they may as well pack up their bags and leave.
I understand that right now they're just trying to stop the hemorrhaging of cash, but if they want to stay at all competitive they need a price drop before Christmas at the latest.
Wicker's pretty much got it, though I'd say that assumes Sony drops the price on the PS3 sometime this year. The way things are going, it's very possible they won't.
If they don't drop their price at all this year they may as well pack up their bags and leave.
I understand that right now they're just trying to stop the hemorrhaging of cash, but if they want to stay at all competitive they need a price drop before Christmas at the latest.
Oh I'll agree, if they don't drop the price this year they'll do even more damage to developers and consumers, and make it that much more difficult for them to make a comeback next generation. But Sony's focused on making a profit on each console the way Porkins was focused on his target in the first Star Wars. I mean, stop supplying PS3s to Korea because Japanese people are buying them slightly cheaper than they could at home? Goddamn, talk about throwing out the revenue with the bathwater. That's above and beyond trying to turtle up in this bad economy.
Top 10 Nintendo DS
1. NDS MARIO KART DS NINTENDO OF AMERICA
2. NDS NEW SUPER MARIO BROS NINTENDO OF AMERICA
3. NDS CLUB PENGUIN: ELITE PENGUIN FORCE DISNEY INTERACTIVE STUDIOS
4. NDS LEGO STAR WARS: COMPLETE SAGA LUCASARTS
5. NDS SUPER MARIO 64 DS NINTENDO OF AMERICA
6. NDS FIRE EMBLEM: SHADOW DRAGON NINTENDO OF AMERICA
7. NDS MARIO PARTY NINTENDO OF AMERICA
8. NDS KIRBY SUPER STAR ULTRA NINTENDO OF AMERICA
9. NDS POKEMON RANGER: SHADOWS OF ALMIA NINTENDO OF AMERICA
10. NDS BRAIN AGE 2: MORE TRAINING IN MINUTES A DAY NINTENDO OF AMERICA
Top 10 PSP
1. PSP GRAND THEFT AUTO: LIBERTY CITY STORIES TAKE 2 INTERACTIVE
2. PSP MIDNIGHT CLUB: LA REMIX TAKE 2 INTERACTIVE
3. PSP GRAND THEFT AUTO: VICE CITY STORIES TAKE 2 INTERACTIVE
4. PSP IRON MAN SEGA OF AMERICA 5. PSP LOCOROCO 2 SONY6. PSP MADDEN NFL 09 ELECTRONIC ARTS
7. PSP WWE SMACKDOWN VS. RAW 2008 THQ
8. PSP LEGO BATMAN WARNER INTERACTIVE
9. PSP WWE SMACKDOWN VS. RAW 2009 THQ
10. PSP CRISIS CORE: FINAL FANTASY VII SQUARE ENIX INC
Top 10 Portable Games Overall
1. NDS MARIO KART DS NDS NINTENDO OF AMERICA
2. NDS NEW SUPER MARIO BROS NDS NINTENDO OF AMERICA
3. NDS CLUB PENGUIN: ELITE PENGUIN FORCE NDS DISNEY INTERACTIVE STUDIOS
4. NDS LEGO STAR WARS: COMPLETE SAGA NDS LUCASARTS
5. NDS SUPER MARIO 64 DS NDS NINTENDO OF AMERICA
6. NDS FIRE EMBLEM: SHADOW DRAGON NDS NINTENDO OF AMERICA
7. NDS MARIO PARTY NDS NINTENDO OF AMERICA
8. NDS KIRBY SUPER STAR ULTRA NDS NINTENDO OF AMERICA
9. NDS POKEMON RANGER: SHADOWS OF ALMIA NDS NINTENDO OF AMERICA
10. NDS BRAIN AGE 2: MORE TRAINING IN MINUTES A DAY NDS NINTENDO OF AMERICA
How well did the first Locoroco do? The top ten portable games are exactly the same as the top ten DS games.
I mean, stop supplying PS3s to Korea because Japanese people are buying them slightly cheaper than they could at home? Goddamn, talk about throwing out the revenue with the bathwater. That's above and beyond trying to turtle up in this bad economy.
I actually thought that was pretty hilarious. It reminded me of the stupid lengths Sony will go to to prevent consumers from saving money.
I'm still bitter about them causing Lik-sang to close.
Attach rate as an independent number shouldnt even exist. It should always be listed alongside average weeks of ownership.
Exactly. People always tout it, one way or another, as an independent indication.
Attach rate is by definition a relative measure. By itself it literally means nothing.
Attach rate can be relevant when the install bases are comparable though. So comparing PS3 and 360 attach rate would make some sense.
.
they're not comparable even when they are nearly equal install bases; you also have to take into account how long the install base has been at a certain point.
For example, if Console X has been out for 4 years and has achieved 15M install base, and Console P has been out for 3 years and has achieved a 15M install base, then the attach rates are not directly comparable, because Console X's equal-sized install base has had more time to accrue games for the same number of existing consoles out there. Alternatively, Console P's equal-sized install base has had less time to accrue games for the existing consoles out there.
Which is why it's impressive that the Wii has pulled over twice as many consoles as the PS3, for which it has been out roughly the same length of time, and it also has comparable attach rates, despite the Wii's install base being larger and selling at a faster rate. Normally the one with the lower hardware sales rate makes it easier for existing users to increase the attach rate because not as many 'new users' (with few attached games) lowering the average. In fact, this is likely a very big reason the PS3 attach rate finally caught up to the Wii's, and also why the 360's attach rate has stagnated (360 hw sales rates went up rapidly since price cut).
The point is, Attach rate is meaningless without a lot of context.
I’ll tell you what happens in Demon’s Souls when you die. You come back as a ghost with your health capped at half. And when you keep on dying, the alignment of the world turns black and the enemies get harder. That’s right, when you fail in this game, it gets harder. Why? Because fuck you is why.
Sometimes I think "Wii Play" was released just so Nintendo could increase its attach rate.
Haha :P
You'd think, but then, they count The Zapper + Link's CBT as a "peripheral," and also they do not include Wii Sports in the attach rate.
Course, one doesnt sell as well and the other's a pack-in.
Anyway, I'd agree with you in that it's definitely in Nintendo's best interest to classify Wii Play as a game. Mostly for PR and marketing reasons I suppose.
Yeah, most people don't even care about if it's first party or third. Notice how Nintendo doesn't even bother with a "ONLY ON" marker on their games anymore?
The console hardware market leader never bothers.
Sony didn't generally put "Only on the Playstation 2" on any of their 1st party games last generation (I only say "generally" since to be honest I can't recall any at all, but there may have been a handful at launch that did).
Now that they're dead last in hardware sales, every single Sony 1st party game is emblazoned with "Only on Playstation" on the front.
I'd also say that the distinction between 1st and 3rd parties becomes more distinct on consoles that aren't dominating the market, since there are far fewer 3rd party exclusives to be had. The PS3 is once again a prime example, since if you're not looking to use it as a Blu-Ray player the only game-related reasons for a 360 owner to pick up a PS3 are the 1st party exclusives.
Well, and Valkyria Chronicles, but that's unfortunately not much of a system seller.
After some thought, I believe I was mistaken for calling out 1st vs 3rd party as being partially responsible for a game's success. You're right, most consumers don't think "1st party or 3rd?" when making purchases. They don't even know the difference. But I would argue that brand is important. This is especially for Nintendo, since their 1st party brands are extremely powerful. Anything with Mario, or "Wii *", or Pokemon gets a huge name recognition boost. It's the same with anything Halo. People aren't buying Halo Wars because it comes from MS, but because it's got Halo in the title. Not to say that those games aren't good on their own, but the branding is definitely influential. There are, after all, plenty of Nintendo and MS-made 1st party games that haven't done so well, or at least nearly as well as Wii Play, Wii Fit, Halo 3, etc.
To publishers/developers though, that branding challenge does essentially boil down to "1st vs 3rd party", since usually only 1st/2nd party developers get to use those brands. (Mario & Sonic at the Olympics is an interesting example of a Mario game doing well that wasn't developed Nintendo)
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Exactly. People always tout it, one way or another, as an independent indication.
Attach rate is by definition a relative measure. By itself it literally means nothing.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
I know, I was thinking the same exact thing. Why is it that lowly takes everything I say about Wii sales to be somehow negative, and tries to tie back to some sort of anti-Nintendo/pro-MS bias? "Take a hint from your friends in PR" ... really? Really?
As for who is having the conversation about Wii 3rd party sales, we were. I was responding to what Rehab and other folks were discussing. I don't see either how anything I posted was a knock on Nintendo, nor is it even about "moving the goal posts" around. Again, not everything in this thread should be about the "console warz". We've had plenty of good discussions just about the business side of things. We already know who has "won" the system sales (Nintendo), so can we move on?
Anyway, moving on ... attach rate alone is one of those metrics that's much over-used. With context, it makes a lot more sense and becomes more meaningful.
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Wii WW attach rate: 6.94
PS3 WW attach rate: 7.13
Average weeks of ownership (average purchase date)
Wii: 45.8 (Mar. 17 '08)
PS3: 52.0 (Feb. 2 '08)
360: 73.5 (Sept. 5 '07)
Now we're gonna get super-crazy, average games purchased per console per week.
Wii: .1515 (1 game every 6.48 weeks)
PS3: .137 (1 game every 7.29 weeks)
I don't have the 360's attach rate handy but I can ballpark it; AR of 8.1 (last known but very old AR) is 1 game every 9 weeks, AR of 9 (generous upper limit I would say) is a game every 8.2 weeks. Which I don't think is that shocking given the 360's relative age.
My guess is that they'll use whatever metric looks the best, which means including those games ... but it's hard to tell for sure unless they outright say so. It also makes it more of an apples-to-oranges comparison since each of the systems started doing downloadable titles at different times, and the portables currently don't support it.
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Also even with other numbers to back them up Tie Ratio is still stupid. It's the Saves of the video game sales statline. Impressive looking but meaningless.
The 360 rate is from their PR since figures aren't given in their financial report but I doubt they'd included Live Arcade games, anyway I know Nintendo every once in a while will drop the VC software figure when reaching certain milestones so that can be done separately.
What lack of games are you talking about?
The lack of AAA titles that the Wii had in most of 2008.
You should read thru threads for context in what was said...
I've seen the 360 attach rate (and obviously I can't share it with you guys), but I don't recall if it included Arcade games. I dunno, it seems like a weird metric when attach rate "represents how many complementary products are sold for each primary product", but that in this instance it only counts retail and not digital. A product is a product. Certainly the platform holders know how many retail and online titles they have sold. To a publisher/developer potentially interested in both retail and online distribution, the distinction may not be that important. Sure, the platform holder could break out retail versus online attach, but the latter is extremely confidential so I can easily see them only wanting to announce the combined rate.
That said, I do agree that outside sources like NPD only have access to retail data.
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So basically what you're saying is internet-->GAF-->internet?:winky:
What's stupid is there is no point to that data being 'secret' other than pride.
From me? It's actually not wanting to be fired.
If you mean companies keeping attach rate and online sales data private, it's all about competitive advantage. Those who need to know the data do have access to it, through private meetings and such. But Sony doesn't want MS to know its numbers and vice versa. Competitive intelligence is a pretty interesting part of the industry. Maybe I'm biased, but it seems weird that the games industry seems to be much more secretive than other industries.
Perhaps you're right though ... the data doesn't really mean that much in the end. And maybe the industry as a whole would benefit more if everyone shared all of their data openly?
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But see, I saw that the dates were relevant and included them for that reason. Seeing as how they were right next to, even prefacing the numbers, I didn't feel much of a need to highlight them. The intent was not to mislead anyone with dyslexia or an inability to put things into context using very basic arithmetic, hoping that these people wouldn't be able to see past my cunning ruse; it was merely to show that the greater overall number of Wii games sold should indicate that there is a good deal of potential for third parties to do well. That was it.
And yeah, I could have done a bit more looking around but it was meant as a quick post to show that the people in the Invisible Wall video were talking out their asses. I didn't exactly plan on expanding on any of that for use in a thesis paper.
My attempt was so blatant that my only crime was using slightly outdated facts (not falsified) from Wiki because I was too lazy to put much more effort into an argument about video game sales on the internet. I hope that you're super pissed.
GameStop Says Wii Supply Finally Meeting Demand
It only took three years, but it seems you can finally find a Wii in stores with reasonable ease.
By Kris Pigna, 03/22/2009
Gave up on trying to find a Wii in stock a long time ago? You may want to give it another shot, as apparently Nintendo has finally caught up with demand. In an interview with Gamasutra, GameStop vice president of marketing Bob McKenzie (who's been making the rounds lately) said they're now seeing a consistently sufficient supply of Wiis in their stores across the U.S.
"I think finally we've gotten to the point where we're going to be able to get a real good run rate on this thing," McKenzie said. "You know, three years later, we finally have enough inventory on the shelf, and we've got a couple of weeks in supply of this. That's good because we can finally determine and gauge it before we get into the fourth holiday season." Yes, that's right -- it only took Nintendo three years to finally figure out how to make enough Wiis to meet demand. Better late than never, we suppose?
In another interesting tidbit, McKenzie also admitted that he was somewhat surprised by the success of Wii Fit, saying, "we weren't sure if that was really gonna be successful or not, and to be honest I don't think Nintendo really knew how successful that would be." Clearly, it turned out to be very successful.
Attach rate can be relevant when the install bases are comparable though. So comparing PS3 and 360 attach rate would make some sense.
Comparing Wii and PS3 attach rate is just dumb though.
Lolwut?
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
Total War seems to be hanging in there though. I guess they can't resist living out their fantasy of reconquering the US
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
Pretty strange considering that it had solid start in US.
It's just that they are important from a financial perspective for the platform holders. The attach rate goes a long way to determining profitability of the console, especially for those that are sold at a loss.
After all, the number of blades sold per razor is important in the razor + blades business model.
Furthermore, even the 1st/3rd party split of the attach rate is important in this sense: Each first party game represents more (marginal) profit than the licensing fee from a 3rd party game.
So from Nintendo's point of view, if they have a very similar attach rate to the PS3 but a lot of that is made up of 1st party games that's all to the good. It just means that their 1st party developers are doing a good job making games and their marketing dept. is doing a good job of selling them. Furthermore, it seems that a good number of these 1st party games are driving Wii sales to unheard of heights.
Conversely, from a 3rd party's point of view the fact that Nintendo's own games make a large fraction of the attach rate is not really relevant because, again, it isn't even a distinction that consumers make and they have to compete against those Nintendo titles if they make Wii games or stick to PS360 games.
Valid reasons for 3rd parties not making Wii games include the fact that they feel they don't understand the Wii's install base well enough to make a game for them, their game concept won't fit on the Wii's hardware and on and on. It just doesn't include the fact that the Wii's 3rd party attach rate is low.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
Also saw an ad for Chinatown Wars, which seemed strange, but I hope sells well because it's rather good.
The console hardware market leader never bothers.
Sony didn't generally put "Only on the Playstation 2" on any of their 1st party games last generation (I only say "generally" since to be honest I can't recall any at all, but there may have been a handful at launch that did).
Now that they're dead last in hardware sales, every single Sony 1st party game is emblazoned with "Only on Playstation" on the front.
I'd also say that the distinction between 1st and 3rd parties becomes more distinct on consoles that aren't dominating the market, since there are far fewer 3rd party exclusives to be had. The PS3 is once again a prime example, since if you're not looking to use it as a Blu-Ray player the only game-related reasons for a 360 owner to pick up a PS3 are the 1st party exclusives.
Well, and Valkyria Chronicles, but that's unfortunately not much of a system seller.
Sega Dreamvision comes in first place, no other competing console comes in close.
Sonic appears in a good game that isn't published by Nintendo.
The Wii turns out to have been a 3 year long fad.
Sony goes bankrupt.
MS gives up on the console business and goes into selling shoes.
PSN = Wicker86 ________ Gamertag = Wicker86
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I knew I forgot one. That's one of the few lone exceptions, though, and seems driven more by the oddball auteur quirks of Kojima than any business-related decision.
I understand that right now they're just trying to stop the hemorrhaging of cash, but if they want to stay at all competitive they need a price drop before Christmas at the latest.
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Oh I'll agree, if they don't drop the price this year they'll do even more damage to developers and consumers, and make it that much more difficult for them to make a comeback next generation. But Sony's focused on making a profit on each console the way Porkins was focused on his target in the first Star Wars. I mean, stop supplying PS3s to Korea because Japanese people are buying them slightly cheaper than they could at home? Goddamn, talk about throwing out the revenue with the bathwater. That's above and beyond trying to turtle up in this bad economy.
I'm still bitter about them causing Lik-sang to close.
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they're not comparable even when they are nearly equal install bases; you also have to take into account how long the install base has been at a certain point.
For example, if Console X has been out for 4 years and has achieved 15M install base, and Console P has been out for 3 years and has achieved a 15M install base, then the attach rates are not directly comparable, because Console X's equal-sized install base has had more time to accrue games for the same number of existing consoles out there. Alternatively, Console P's equal-sized install base has had less time to accrue games for the existing consoles out there.
Which is why it's impressive that the Wii has pulled over twice as many consoles as the PS3, for which it has been out roughly the same length of time, and it also has comparable attach rates, despite the Wii's install base being larger and selling at a faster rate. Normally the one with the lower hardware sales rate makes it easier for existing users to increase the attach rate because not as many 'new users' (with few attached games) lowering the average. In fact, this is likely a very big reason the PS3 attach rate finally caught up to the Wii's, and also why the 360's attach rate has stagnated (360 hw sales rates went up rapidly since price cut).
The point is, Attach rate is meaningless without a lot of context.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
Let me tell you about Demon's Souls....
Haha :P
You'd think, but then, they count The Zapper + Link's CBT as a "peripheral," and also they do not include Wii Sports in the attach rate.
Course, one doesnt sell as well and the other's a pack-in.
Anyway, I'd agree with you in that it's definitely in Nintendo's best interest to classify Wii Play as a game. Mostly for PR and marketing reasons I suppose.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
After some thought, I believe I was mistaken for calling out 1st vs 3rd party as being partially responsible for a game's success. You're right, most consumers don't think "1st party or 3rd?" when making purchases. They don't even know the difference. But I would argue that brand is important. This is especially for Nintendo, since their 1st party brands are extremely powerful. Anything with Mario, or "Wii *", or Pokemon gets a huge name recognition boost. It's the same with anything Halo. People aren't buying Halo Wars because it comes from MS, but because it's got Halo in the title. Not to say that those games aren't good on their own, but the branding is definitely influential. There are, after all, plenty of Nintendo and MS-made 1st party games that haven't done so well, or at least nearly as well as Wii Play, Wii Fit, Halo 3, etc.
To publishers/developers though, that branding challenge does essentially boil down to "1st vs 3rd party", since usually only 1st/2nd party developers get to use those brands. (Mario & Sonic at the Olympics is an interesting example of a Mario game doing well that wasn't developed Nintendo)
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