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Perfection, that's what it's about. BSG

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Posts

  • MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Would it have counted as a sci-fi show if it had been the "Force" instead of "God?"

    The whole thing was there to question the possibility of machines that are essentially human, and to question whether AI can be indistinguishable from natural life. I think the answer they tried to give was "yes." Which definition of science fiction are people using that doesn't include "fiction speculating on current or future technology & science?"

    I'm honestly confused as to why people didn't like the ending. It seemed like the perfectly natural conclusion to the series and didn't feel "poorly constructed" at all. It drew on threads that have been cropping up since the pilot episode and tied them all together pretty nicely.

    edit: and NaC I think you missed the point is the problem, not that there wasn't a point.

    MrMonroe on
  • Synthetic OrangeSynthetic Orange Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I was joking before. I take this thread super-seriously. It's my baby.

    This is me reading responses in this thread.

    Synthetic Orange on
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I was joking before. I take this thread super-seriously. It's my baby.

    This is me reading responses in this thread.

    pffhahaha

    MrMonroe on
  • VulnoXVulnoX Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Would it have counted as a sci-fi show if it had been the "Force" instead of "God?"

    The whole thing was there to question the possibility of machines that are essentially human, and to question whether AI can be indistinguishable from natural life. I think the answer they tried to give was "yes." Which definition of science fiction are people using that doesn't include "fiction speculating on current or future technology & science?"

    I'm honestly confused as to why people didn't like the ending. It seemed like the perfectly natural conclusion to the series and didn't feel "poorly constructed" at all. It drew on threads that have been cropping up since the pilot episode and tied them all together pretty nicely.

    edit: and NaC I think you missed the point is the problem, not that there wasn't a point.

    Yeah I don't see it either. I was fine with the ending, it could have gone a lot worse, and I don't have any feelings of regret of unanswered questions. I think that the only part I didn't like, is when they two Angels said "something something god"
    "You know he hates being called that"

    It seemed like a pointless exchange and it reminded me of watching Dogma. But that was about it, pretty insignificant, just seemed... out of place.

    VulnoX on
  • Synthetic OrangeSynthetic Orange Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    No one cares about black cylons.

    Synthetic Orange on
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    No one cares about black cylons.

    well the guy was a total dick, to be honest

    MrMonroe on
  • ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    Would it have counted as a sci-fi show if it had been the "Force" instead of "God?"

    The whole thing was there to question the possibility of machines that are essentially human, and to question whether AI can be indistinguishable from natural life. I think the answer they tried to give was "yes." Which definition of science fiction are people using that doesn't include "fiction speculating on current or future technology & science?"

    I'm honestly confused as to why people didn't like the ending. It seemed like the perfectly natural conclusion to the series and didn't feel "poorly constructed" at all. It drew on threads that have been cropping up since the pilot episode and tied them all together pretty nicely.

    edit: and NaC I think you missed the point is the problem, not that there wasn't a point.

    lots of people though the whole gods plan thing wasn't literal. Pony was partly right in saying some people have issues with religion and that's causing them to dislike the ending, but the point is you can go "but the hints were there throughout the story!" all you want, but some people felt it was a red-herring. Until the final, either group probably could have made a good case for either side being right. Then you have the people who feel the second half of the final was just poorly written/designed/whatever.

    ronzo on
  • Handsome CostanzaHandsome Costanza Ask me about 8bitdo RIP Iwata-sanRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    You know "god" could just be a cylon like cavil from a different cylon structure who ascended to the "feeling supernova's on my face blah blah" status. I mean considering its all happened before a shitload of times, I'm sure theres all kinds of crazy ass leftovers floating around out there.

    Handsome Costanza on
    Nintendo Switch friend code: 7305-5583-0420. Add me!
    Resident 8bitdo expert.
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  • Synthetic OrangeSynthetic Orange Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I'm sorry for your lots

    Synthetic Orange on
  • CrossBusterCrossBuster Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    One thing on which we can all agree is that D&D is a horrible place, and nobody should ever go there.

    Edit: right now they're arguing over the shelf life of Laura's medications, and rather than simply saying "hey, dumb little technical details like that are not the point of the show" they're spinning ridiculously complex in-universe explanations for how Laura has a steady supply of cancer meds.

    CrossBuster on
    penguins.png
  • SeriouslySeriously Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Tory really should have had the foresight to stand across from the Chief, not right beside him.


    Not very smart, Tory.

    Seriously on
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I wouldn't really call it a red herring. Coming to the conclusion, I thought the point throughout the story of dropping these hints was that you would look at them and go "naw, that's ridiculous, it's gotta be an implant or Baltar's a Cylon or there was some sort of wormhole Kara went through" and then it becomes clear that there was something supernatural going on and humans and Cylons both experience it. The viewer experiences the same doubt and skepticism that the characters do, which is a pretty powerful device.

    In other words, I think the point was to say Cylons have experiences equal to humans; they have souls too.

    MrMonroe on
  • WildEEPWildEEP Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I liked the episode right up until the very end - when they decided it'd be a fan-fucking-tastic idea to scatter everyone into small groups all across the globe.

    What..wha? Gods plan is to get you all this way and watch you off yourselves within 6 months?

    You're going to take everyone, divide them up, and let them go live in nature?

    Are you fucking insane?!? They'll be dead in a week! Its an ALIEN planet! You don't even know the fucking flora or fauna! What is safe to eat? What is going to eat YOU? How the fuck are you going to treat Malaria?!?

    Yeah...great idea. Hope the first group that got to Africa enjoyed the learning experience of why you don't poke the fat ugly grey things in the water (see: Hippo).

    Or the Australia team that decided there had to be water SOMEWHERE inland....right? Maybe over that NEXT dune?

    WildEEP on
  • NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    One thing on which we can all agree is that D&D is a horrible place, and nobody should ever go there.

    Edit: right now they're arguing over the shelf life of Laura's medications, and rather than simply saying "hey, dumb little technical details like that are not the point of the show" they're spinning ridiculously complex in-universe explanations for how Laura has a steady supply of cancer meds.

    Basically the driving thrust of the first half of the first season was how they were out of supplies and out of water and out of food and dammit they are fucked if they don't find a place to settle down soon.

    I'm not demanding that every show nitpick down to the fine details of everything, and no show is going to catch everything. I'd just like good shows to follow their own established rules.

    NotASenator on
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    WildEEP wrote: »
    I liked the episode right up until the very end - when they decided it'd be a fan-fucking-tastic idea to scatter everyone into small groups all across the globe.

    What..wha? Gods plan is to get you all this way and watch you off yourselves within 6 months?

    You're going to take everyone, divide them up, and let them go live in nature?

    Are you fucking insane?!? They'll be dead in a week! Its an ALIEN planet! You don't even know the fucking flora or fauna! What is safe to eat? What is going to eat YOU? How the fuck are you going to treat Malaria?!?

    Yeah...great idea. Hope the first group that got to Africa enjoyed the learning experience of why you don't poke the fat ugly grey things in the water (see: Hippo).

    Or the Australia team that decided there had to be water SOMEWHERE inland....right? Maybe over that NEXT dune?

    Presumably a planet supporting organisms genetically close enough to humans to breed with them can support humans. They no longer had much in terms of tools and power generators and such to try creating a functioning city like on New Caprica, so they gave up on their old ways and spread out. Of course some of them would fail. It's called "hedging your bets."

    MrMonroe on
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    WildEEP wrote: »

    Are you fucking insane?!? They'll be dead in a week! Its an ALIEN planet! You don't even know the fucking flora or fauna! What is safe to eat? What is going to eat YOU? How the fuck are you going to treat Malaria?!?

    Yeah...great idea. Hope the first group that got to Africa enjoyed the learning experience of why you don't poke the fat ugly grey things in the water (see: Hippo).
    They had dogs and cats and talked about boiled cabbage.

    It was out of the ordinary, but sure as hell not alien.

    Der Waffle Mous on
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
  • WildEEPWildEEP Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    WildEEP wrote: »
    I liked the episode right up until the very end - when they decided it'd be a fan-fucking-tastic idea to scatter everyone into small groups all across the globe.

    What..wha? Gods plan is to get you all this way and watch you off yourselves within 6 months?

    You're going to take everyone, divide them up, and let them go live in nature?

    Are you fucking insane?!? They'll be dead in a week! Its an ALIEN planet! You don't even know the fucking flora or fauna! What is safe to eat? What is going to eat YOU? How the fuck are you going to treat Malaria?!?

    Yeah...great idea. Hope the first group that got to Africa enjoyed the learning experience of why you don't poke the fat ugly grey things in the water (see: Hippo).

    Or the Australia team that decided there had to be water SOMEWHERE inland....right? Maybe over that NEXT dune?

    Presumably a planet supporting organisms genetically close enough to humans to breed with them can support humans. They no longer had much in terms of tools and power generators and such to try creating a functioning city like on New Caprica, so they gave up on their old ways and spread out. Of course some of them would fail. It's called "hedging your bets."

    By this logic - What is "success" defined as?

    WildEEP on
  • VulnoXVulnoX Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    That and they planned to mix with the already existing human inhabitants. If they taught them language, the proto-humans can sure show them what to eat and play with, and what not to eat and play with. Then Baltar grows out the beard and becomes Jesus, and here we are.

    VulnoX on
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    wait goddammit no.


    We are not going to start that shit in here too.

    Der Waffle Mous on
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
  • CrossBusterCrossBuster Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    They never explained how FTL drives or artificial gravity work HRUGLHGLHGLGHHGLH NERD RAGE!

    CrossBuster on
    penguins.png
  • NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    You guys can hate me all you want, and you most likely will, but I have had a day to think about it now and I just can't accept the premise of the ending.

    Feel free to skip this, I won't think less of you.
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    I'm honestly confused as to why people didn't like the ending. It seemed like the perfectly natural conclusion to the series and didn't feel "poorly constructed" at all. It drew on threads that have been cropping up since the pilot episode and tied them all together pretty nicely.

    Because they had this mysterious thing of God's true plan for all of us, we have a destiny and all that. That's what characters in the show were telling us the whole time.

    At the same time, the narration and titling and other hints were suggesting that everything was cyclical and we were doomed or destined to repeat the same thing over and over again, which is not only boring and depressing, but seems to contradict the "God's plan" alleyway.

    At the finale they say "Oh, yeah, all of that was true. God's plan PLUS doomed to repeat yourself".

    Then there is a whole character development plotline about Kara returning and what happened to her ship and there's a new one and she's having breakdowns and doing shit and sleeping with people and all of that, a human with human issues and is even having visions of what we could assume are spiritual creatures.

    But no, she wasn't actually human there, she was an angel, although perfectly indistinguishable from the humans.

    And they told us that the one true God that the cylons believed in was a fabrication of the final five, but no, wait, it's actually true.


    There is not a storyline in there that I have a problem with, I just wish they had picked one and used it, instead of being inconsistent. That, however, is a relatively small nitpick.


    The big thing though, the dealbreaker, as it were, after that entire voyage, they land on this planet, presumably destroy all evidence of their advanced space-faring civilization, convince 30,000 people to give up everything they have to revert to primitive pre-modern humans at the dawn of homo-sapiens 150,000 years ago and eventually become us.

    Now, here's the problem I have with that, which has very little to do with my enjoyment of the series. Making Hera the Mitochondrial Eve is an interesting touch to suggest, hey, all of us are part toaster and don't even know it. Given the fact that it's only a common maternal line and we could still have other lines through sons of other people, it's plausible.

    But what about language and tool usage? Depending on which theory of evolutionary linguistics you subscribe to, the Great Leap Forward that lead to modernity would have occurred around 50,000 years ago, or was a slow progression over a hundred thousand years. But since we do know that tool use and simple speech (although not language, and definitely not elements of higher culture) was present around that time, and suggested in the show, wouldn't we have evidence of a rapid advancement in humans? Wouldn't we see evidence of these spread out small villages and agricultural development 150k years ago? What I mean to say, wouldn't we see the start of civilization around the time the people from the fleet arrived? The only other thoughts would be that they really did give up everything and "went native" or most of the fleet I spent years cheering on died off before they could make their mark on the planet, except for one small line from which we all derive a common heritage.

    So what the show is asking me to believe is that the group of untrusted military leaders who had integrated their rag-tag fleet of survivors with the robots who had nuked 12 planets and had just allowed a coup that killed all but one of their elected representatives, this group of people somehow convinced 30,000 people to accept a plan thought up on a whim where they would give up all protection, advanced language, art, music, culture, religion, technology, government, law and heritage, and I am supposed to believe that everyone went along with it. Even though a vast majority of the survivors probably had no clue about survival. Even though the chances were good that most of them wouldn't make it, but everyone was ok with it, because someone said it was time to "break the cycle." And then they suggest that the cycle wasn't really broken at all, it was just delayed?

    I don't give a shit about the God did it angle. If they want to say that there was a divine plan, I'll buy that. I'm even ok if they don't want to explain the divine plan.

    But they took a huge steaming shit on plausibility. There's just no way to apply logic to the ending and get anywhere close to something reasonable or acceptable.

    NotASenator on
  • UsagiUsagi Nah Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    you complete me

    Usagi on
  • MysstMysst King Monkey of Hedonism IslandRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    nas i thought about all that

    but then I was 'hey alternate realities' and 'crown is excellent' and 'mori let's get on this army of two bro'

    Mysst on
    ikbUJdU.jpg
  • DrZiplockDrZiplock Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Ah, the old descended from people from the future explanation for who we are and where we're from.

    I remember thinking it was original when Douglas Adams wrote it.

    DrZiplock on
  • WeaverWeaver Breakfast Witch Hashus BrowniusRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    NaS kiss me

    Weaver on
  • MysstMysst King Monkey of Hedonism IslandRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    honestly i had a bigger problem with 10,000 BC because there were no spaceships and i was sober

    Mysst on
    ikbUJdU.jpg
  • BoomShakeBoomShake The Engineer Columbia, MDRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I could listen to Admiral Adama make speeches and be awesome all day long.

    BoomShake on
  • babyeatingjesusbabyeatingjesus Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Also Chief Tyrol clearly set the standard for all scottish naming conventions.

    That's leaving a mark.

    babyeatingjesus on
    hitthatcheeseburgerfatty.gif
  • WeaverWeaver Breakfast Witch Hashus BrowniusRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Did the final five even have death by aging?

    Weaver on
  • BoomShakeBoomShake The Engineer Columbia, MDRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    The worst part about the ending is the empty feeling it leaves you with while you still try to process all the goodbyes, and
    the shot with Adama by the grave overlooking the landscape burned into your mind.

    BoomShake on
  • NAND NORNAND NOR Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I thought the ending was good. It's not really what I would have done, but I think the performances of the actors is what really saved it. The last seen with Adama sitting alone was perfect. Everything about it was perfect. They should have ended it with that.

    The 150,000 years later bit was ... alright as an epilogue, but it didn't really fit the show. It really felt unnecessary.

    NAND NOR on
    moebius.jpg
  • WeaverWeaver Breakfast Witch Hashus BrowniusRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    If I was head cylon in charge of the basestar I'd just go right back to the 12 colonies and live on those planets all being immune to radiation

    Weaver on
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    WildEEP wrote: »
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    WildEEP wrote: »
    I liked the episode right up until the very end - when they decided it'd be a fan-fucking-tastic idea to scatter everyone into small groups all across the globe.

    What..wha? Gods plan is to get you all this way and watch you off yourselves within 6 months?

    You're going to take everyone, divide them up, and let them go live in nature?

    Are you fucking insane?!? They'll be dead in a week! Its an ALIEN planet! You don't even know the fucking flora or fauna! What is safe to eat? What is going to eat YOU? How the fuck are you going to treat Malaria?!?

    Yeah...great idea. Hope the first group that got to Africa enjoyed the learning experience of why you don't poke the fat ugly grey things in the water (see: Hippo).

    Or the Australia team that decided there had to be water SOMEWHERE inland....right? Maybe over that NEXT dune?

    Presumably a planet supporting organisms genetically close enough to humans to breed with them can support humans. They no longer had much in terms of tools and power generators and such to try creating a functioning city like on New Caprica, so they gave up on their old ways and spread out. Of course some of them would fail. It's called "hedging your bets."

    By this logic - What is "success" defined as?

    form babby?

    MrMonroe on
  • VulnoXVulnoX Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I think the biggest hole for me that I was wondering about had to do with the rest of the Cylons. I get that they moved the Colony to where it was or whatever, but when they first found the Colony they said they saw Baseships jumping in and out. There has to be some Cylons around who jump back to the colony and after a quick what the frack, I would think they would have either gone human hunting, or done something of importance. Seems like in 150,000 years they could have found the new Earth too.

    I guess its one of those things that don't matter all that much, but I don't believe that there are not still tons and tons of Cylons out there.

    VulnoX on
  • babyeatingjesusbabyeatingjesus Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Man I was a big fan of the final speech and shots of Anders.

    Just wanted to put that out there.

    Would have been nice if he'd been making that perfection speech earlier in the season/series.

    babyeatingjesus on
    hitthatcheeseburgerfatty.gif
  • NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Really, though, Pony is right and I just have a problem with God.

    NotASenator on
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe passed out on the floor nowRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    NotACrook wrote: »
    You guys can hate me all you want, and you most likely will, but I have had a day to think about it now and I just can't accept the premise of the ending.

    Feel free to skip this, I won't think less of you.
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    I'm honestly confused as to why people didn't like the ending. It seemed like the perfectly natural conclusion to the series and didn't feel "poorly constructed" at all. It drew on threads that have been cropping up since the pilot episode and tied them all together pretty nicely.

    Because they had this mysterious thing of God's true plan for all of us, we have a destiny and all that. That's what characters in the show were telling us the whole time.

    At the same time, the narration and titling and other hints were suggesting that everything was cyclical and we were doomed or destined to repeat the same thing over and over again, which is not only boring and depressing, but seems to contradict the "God's plan" alleyway.

    At the finale they say "Oh, yeah, all of that was true. God's plan PLUS doomed to repeat yourself".

    Then there is a whole character development plotline about Kara returning and what happened to her ship and there's a new one and she's having breakdowns and doing shit and sleeping with people and all of that, a human with human issues and is even having visions of what we could assume are spiritual creatures.

    But no, she wasn't actually human there, she was an angel, although perfectly indistinguishable from the humans.

    And they told us that the one true God that the cylons believed in was a fabrication of the final five, but no, wait, it's actually true.


    There is not a storyline in there that I have a problem with, I just wish they had picked one and used it, instead of being inconsistent. That, however, is a relatively small nitpick.


    The big thing though, the dealbreaker, as it were, after that entire voyage, they land on this planet, presumably destroy all evidence of their advanced space-faring civilization, convince 30,000 people to give up everything they have to revert to primitive pre-modern humans at the dawn of homo-sapiens 150,000 years ago and eventually become us.

    Now, here's the problem I have with that, which has very little to do with my enjoyment of the series. Making Hera the Mitochondrial Eve is an interesting touch to suggest, hey, all of us are part toaster and don't even know it. Given the fact that it's only a common maternal line and we could still have other lines through sons of other people, it's plausible.

    But what about language and tool usage? Depending on which theory of evolutionary linguistics you subscribe to, the Great Leap Forward that lead to modernity would have occurred around 50,000 years ago, or was a slow progression over a hundred thousand years. But since we do know that tool use and simple speech (although not language, and definitely not elements of higher culture) was present around that time, and suggested in the show, wouldn't we have evidence of a rapid advancement in humans? Wouldn't we see evidence of these spread out small villages and agricultural development 150k years ago? What I mean to say, wouldn't we see the start of civilization around the time the people from the fleet arrived? The only other thoughts would be that they really did give up everything and "went native" or most of the fleet I spent years cheering on died off before they could make their mark on the planet, except for one small line from which we all derive a common heritage.


    So what the show is asking me to believe is that the group of untrusted military leaders who had integrated their rag-tag fleet of survivors with the robots who had nuked 12 planets and had just allowed a coup that killed all but one of their elected representatives, this group of people somehow convinced 30,000 people to accept a plan thought up on a whim where they would give up all protection, advanced language, art, music, culture, religion, technology, government, law and heritage, and I am supposed to believe that everyone went along with it. Even though a vast majority of the survivors probably had no clue about survival. Even though the chances were good that most of them wouldn't make it, but everyone was ok with it, because someone said it was time to "break the cycle." And then they suggest that the cycle wasn't really broken at all, it was just delayed?

    I don't give a shit about the God did it angle. If they want to say that there was a divine plan, I'll buy that. I'm even ok if they don't want to explain the divine plan.

    But they took a huge steaming shit on plausibility. There's just no way to apply logic to the ending and get anywhere close to something reasonable or acceptable.

    (open the spoiler)

    Green means I think you interpreted the events correctly, but drew a weird conclusion from it. I thought those were all tied together nicely. Using the word "angel" for Kara is just Baltar grasping for words that make sense to describe the apparently supernatural phenomena they're experiencing. I thought the whole point was them coming to terms with how all these things are related any why certain people seem to have certain destinies.
    incidentally, it was the Centurions who "invented" the one true god thing, not the Five. It's meaningless, of course, it could have been anything. It could have been Thetans, ffs, the point is that no one really knows what's going on but there seems to be one force doing all this and they decide to call it "God."

    Blue: I don't think that was the intention at all. Hera was supposed to be a symbol that Cylons and humans are compatible and spiritually equal. Her legacy got talked up a lot but it's a largely symbolic one.

    Red: this is you descending into nerdrage because they gave us a fictional alternate reality which indicates an Earth that doesn't conform to current rigorous anthropological analysis. I thought the point of it being Earth Earth was to show how the cycle might actually occur: we can conceive of people inventing the Cylons in the foreseeable future, and thus the cycle happens again, with different planets.

    The... purply colored stuff I kind of agree with, though I figure it was just them all thinking, well, we really don't have much opportunity to keep searching and this is the best we're going to find, so... I'm tired and I want to hunt buffalo for the rest of my life.

    MrMonroe on
  • NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    did...


    did you just grade my post?

    NotASenator on
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    See me after class.

    Der Waffle Mous on
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
  • MysstMysst King Monkey of Hedonism IslandRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    monroe I thought you had a couple good posts here until that

    Mysst on
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