Not to get back into the whole "GC should fall into a dumpster filled with scorpions" Death Strike nerf thing again, but:
Death knights have been at the top of the food chain for a long time.
I kind of want to punch his mouth a little. Just a little.
Man what?
Did he forget that Paladins have the retribution tree? I still haven't figured out how to kill one even if I mash every cooldown on my bars.
The difference is that DKs have been dominating arenas quite a bit more than ret paladins.
forty on
Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2009
When you see a paladin high on the arena server rankings, it's a holy paladin, not a ret paladin.
And ret paladins had been at the bottom of the food chain for about four years.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Where a class/spec stood on the food chain in the past should have no bearing on their current status.
And I hate it when PvP nerfs affect my PvE play.
Ender on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2009
It should, and does, affect the deference that developers give as to the severity of the changes they make.
And the majority of DK nerfs are because of PvE reasons and the more that certain morons harp on the opposite the more I find deep throating a shotgun to be a viable escape.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I don't blame PvP, I blame teh Devs STUPID idea about making Death Strike the new Obliterate for Blood.
Whatever kind of healing Blood was getting, as Unholy, I'm now fucked. My ability to solo tough mobs has been severely cut back because Death Strike heals for so little, I don't even see my health bar move. It's like a piddly 500-700 health every 10 seconds.
shryke on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2009
I like the idea of DS being the oblit for blood. DS is still a decently potent heal for blood, and I hated having to have it on my bars in my other specs. DKs have too many buttons as it is, dammit. We need less.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I like the idea of DS being the oblit for blood. DS is still a decently potent heal for blood, and I hated having to have it on my bars in my other specs. DKs have too many buttons as it is, dammit. We need less.
Your insane. Death Strike is one of our best moves (or used to be) and was half the reasons DKs were actually GOOD at leveling.
Sweet, I've been thinking I'd never have a shot at a decent 2h sword raiding Ulduar 10, but it looks like this drops off of Yogg-Saron normal 10 --> Abaddon
I like the idea of DS being the oblit for blood. DS is still a decently potent heal for blood, and I hated having to have it on my bars in my other specs. DKs have too many buttons as it is, dammit. We need less.
Potent heal for Blood Tanks or Blood DPS? Because in my tank gear, I was seeing really pidly numbers for DS as a tank in Naxx25 last night.
Sweet, I've been thinking I'd never have a shot at a decent 2h sword raiding Ulduar 10, but it looks like this drops off of Yogg-Saron normal 10 --> Abaddon
Sweet, I've been thinking I'd never have a shot at a decent 2h sword raiding Ulduar 10, but it looks like this drops off of Yogg-Saron normal 10 --> Abaddon
Fucking Armor Penetration.
Armor Penetration is a happy stat if you are Blood.
I like the idea of DS being the oblit for blood. DS is still a decently potent heal for blood, and I hated having to have it on my bars in my other specs. DKs have too many buttons as it is, dammit. We need less.
Potent heal for Blood Tanks or Blood DPS? Because in my tank gear, I was seeing really pidly numbers for DS as a tank in Naxx25 last night.
I guess DPS. Unfortunately this never happens when I need it, but I've seen a 19k heal from Death Strike. 18.5k of that was overheal.
It should, and does, affect the deference that developers give as to the severity of the changes they make.
And the majority of DK nerfs are because of PvE reasons and the more that certain morons harp on the opposite the more I find deep throating a shotgun to be a viable escape.
except not.
every nerf in 3.1 has been to pvp and or tanking. dps was boosted across the board.
death strike nerf certainly was 100% pvp motivated.
My concern with the DS heal nerf is from a tanking position. The 4k-8k heals were stupid a few days after the patch and needed to be fixed, but where it was pre-patch with 1k-3ks was pretty nice, especially using DS tanking as Blood and having a bit more of a self-healing buffer between Vamp Blood and Imp Rune Tap.
It should, and does, affect the deference that developers give as to the severity of the changes they make.
And the majority of DK nerfs are because of PvE reasons and the more that certain morons harp on the opposite the more I find deep throating a shotgun to be a viable escape.
except not.
every nerf in 3.1 has been to pvp and or tanking. dps was boosted across the board.
death strike nerf certainly was 100% pvp motivated.
So you think the icy touch spam specs that dominated PvE DPS were nerfed because of PvP? Fascinating.
forty on
Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited April 2009
uh, yes?
6x it dw was not the highest dps post 3.8.
shadowfrost it spam spec was THE dominant arena spec however.
So if it hadn't have been dominant in arena, then your logic dictates it would have been left intact so that DKs out-damaged nearly everything on most raid encounters with one of two viable specs. All righty.
I like the idea of DS being the oblit for blood. DS is still a decently potent heal for blood, and I hated having to have it on my bars in my other specs. DKs have too many buttons as it is, dammit. We need less.
Potent heal for Blood Tanks or Blood DPS? Because in my tank gear, I was seeing really pidly numbers for DS as a tank in Naxx25 last night.
My biggest heal from DS over the weekend was ~1800, on a crit, versus a level 80 mob with a full rune bar. I am full blood spec, and have the DS glyph. Was probably in unholy stance at that point, I do most of my dailies in unholy for the run speed boost.
Granted all my gear is PvP stuff, no Naxx gear here, but that seems like a really low ceiling for a heal, especially when I'm pushing 27k hp unbuffed right now.
xzzy on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2009
I'm talking about blood DPS. As a blood tank, the heal you get from DS is essentially a little bit of extra mitigation.
But you guys realize that getting a heal for 1k on a move that is part of your normal rotation is absurdly good?
You death strike twice on Hodir to turn your runes into death runes. You just 'mitigated' his frozen blows.
I do agree that what should happen is that the blood talents should boost DS DPS and lower its healing ability so that DS is actually useful to the other specs, but as it was pre-patch, it was pretty broken. It was a potent attack that healed for a shitton. No, you should not be thinking "Hey, I'm low on health, I think I'll go find a mob to death strike to full!" Yet that's what I did. Over and over. Deathknights were already the best DPS class to handle AoE damage in PvE without deathstrike, they don't need another.
EDIT: You won't have 27k unbuffed hp if you are in DPS PvE gear. PvP gear has a shitton of stamina on it at the expense of damage stats, you realize.
Munkus Beaver on
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
So if it hadn't have been dominant in arena, then your logic dictates it would have been left intact so that DKs out-damaged nearly everything on most raid encounters with one of two viable specs. All righty.
it spam was not the top raid dps post 3.8 and in 3.8 it was not blowing the other comparable specs out of the water, it was merely another option for dw.
shadowfrost was overpowered as shit in arena however where spamming icy touch was a huge problem.
if you'd notice, the shadowfrost spec for arena has been completely destroyed.
So my HP does not change when i switch presences. And i know there is a frost talent for me to retain a specific "bonus" amount of HP from one presence to the next....but i have 30k unbuffed HP in blood presence.
weird.
ObjectZero on
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
where is the expertise tanking 2hander in Ulduar 25? I'm never giving up my Inevitable Defeat.
ObjectZero on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
So my HP does not change when i switch presences. And i know there is a frost talent for me to retain a specific "bonus" amount of HP from one presence to the next....but i have 30k unbuffed HP in blood presence.
weird.
You get a 10% boost from from all health effects in frost presence normally. The talent lets you retain that. For frost presence, it gives you an extra 2% damage reduction. It does not affect your health in frost presence, it merely lets you retain that aspect of the frost presence buff in other presences.
In tanking gear, I have about 27k HP unbuffed. PvP gear has about as much stam as some of the tanking gear out there.
And if you're frost spec, death strike isn't going to be hitting for a ton. And if you're in unholy presence, your hits will be for 15% less and you also lose the based 4% to heal that all your hits would normally retain.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I guess DPS. Unfortunately this never happens when I need it, but I've seen a 19k heal from Death Strike. 18.5k of that was overheal.
Was this some sort of bug then?
This was post 3.1
The day after 3.1 came out, DS was super bugged to heal for an insane amount, so yes. That would be a bug. Thought it should be very apparent that a near 40k heal off deathstrike is a bug.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
So if it hadn't have been dominant in arena, then your logic dictates it would have been left intact so that DKs out-damaged nearly everything on most raid encounters with one of two viable specs. All righty.
it spam was not the top raid dps post 3.8 and in 3.8 it was not blowing the other comparable specs out of the water, it was merely another option for dw.
shadowfrost was overpowered as shit in arena however where spamming icy touch was a huge problem.
if you'd notice, the shadowfrost spec for arena has been completely destroyed.
Then tell me which DK specs were putting DKs in top 3 spots on nearly every encounter?
I guess DPS. Unfortunately this never happens when I need it, but I've seen a 19k heal from Death Strike. 18.5k of that was overheal.
Was this some sort of bug then?
This was post 3.1
The day after 3.1 came out, DS was super bugged to heal for an insane amount, so yes. That would be a bug. Thought it should be very apparent that a near 40k heal off deathstrike is a bug.
Working as intended.
By the way, switched from Unholy to Blood.
My god. So fun. Also the rotations are 10 times easier to manage. So many damn death runes.
So my HP does not change when i switch presences. And i know there is a frost talent for me to retain a specific "bonus" amount of HP from one presence to the next....but i have 30k unbuffed HP in blood presence.
weird.
You get a 10% boost from from all health effects in frost presence normally. The talent lets you retain that. For frost presence, it gives you an extra 2% damage reduction. It does not affect your health in frost presence, it merely lets you retain that aspect of the frost presence buff in other presences.
In tanking gear, I have about 27k HP unbuffed. PvP gear has about as much stam as some of the tanking gear out there.
And if you're frost spec, death strike isn't going to be hitting for a ton. And if you're in unholy presence, your hits will be for 15% less and you also lose the based 4% to heal that all your hits would normally retain.
I see. Thank you.
i switch to blood for dps because i can't afford dual spec yet.
though i am going to have to buy dual spec and put a dps build in there. I'm kinda scared of leaving the frost tree. They have a solid frost dps build these days? though i guess Ulduar would require more single target damage.
The day after 3.1 came out, DS was super bugged to heal for an insane amount, so yes. That would be a bug. Thought it should be very apparent that a near 40k heal off deathstrike is a bug.
Was it actually bugged? I thought it was giving the 160% of damage heal as intended?
The day after 3.1 came out, DS was super bugged to heal for an insane amount, so yes. That would be a bug. Thought it should be very apparent that a near 40k heal off deathstrike is a bug.
Was it actually bugged? I thought it was giving the 160% of damage heal as intended?
The day after 3.1 came out, DS was super bugged to heal for an insane amount, so yes. That would be a bug. Thought it should be very apparent that a near 40k heal off deathstrike is a bug.
40k yes. I said 19k. I only physically got healed for 500, the rest (18.5k) was overheal.
Of course, my incredulity was still very very high, but with a critical, improved blood presence, and vampiric blood active, I wasn't really sure if it was a bug or just plain op.
diseaseless blood was the highest dps spec in 3.8.
WoW meter online disagreed with you.
it really didn't, but i'm not going to argue this with you anymore.
Angry on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2009
19k is still a bigger heal than healing classes do when healing the heal business on heals with heal boost to healiness.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Posts
And ret paladins had been at the bottom of the food chain for about four years.
And I hate it when PvP nerfs affect my PvE play.
And the majority of DK nerfs are because of PvE reasons and the more that certain morons harp on the opposite the more I find deep throating a shotgun to be a viable escape.
Whatever kind of healing Blood was getting, as Unholy, I'm now fucked. My ability to solo tough mobs has been severely cut back because Death Strike heals for so little, I don't even see my health bar move. It's like a piddly 500-700 health every 10 seconds.
Your insane. Death Strike is one of our best moves (or used to be) and was half the reasons DKs were actually GOOD at leveling.
Potent heal for Blood Tanks or Blood DPS? Because in my tank gear, I was seeing really pidly numbers for DS as a tank in Naxx25 last night.
Fucking Armor Penetration.
Armor Penetration is a happy stat if you are Blood.
I guess DPS. Unfortunately this never happens when I need it, but I've seen a 19k heal from Death Strike. 18.5k of that was overheal.
except not.
every nerf in 3.1 has been to pvp and or tanking. dps was boosted across the board.
death strike nerf certainly was 100% pvp motivated.
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I'll probably be going from shadowfrost (lol nerfed to the ground) back to a frost build for arena though
6x it dw was not the highest dps post 3.8.
shadowfrost it spam spec was THE dominant arena spec however.
My biggest heal from DS over the weekend was ~1800, on a crit, versus a level 80 mob with a full rune bar. I am full blood spec, and have the DS glyph. Was probably in unholy stance at that point, I do most of my dailies in unholy for the run speed boost.
Granted all my gear is PvP stuff, no Naxx gear here, but that seems like a really low ceiling for a heal, especially when I'm pushing 27k hp unbuffed right now.
But you guys realize that getting a heal for 1k on a move that is part of your normal rotation is absurdly good?
You death strike twice on Hodir to turn your runes into death runes. You just 'mitigated' his frozen blows.
I do agree that what should happen is that the blood talents should boost DS DPS and lower its healing ability so that DS is actually useful to the other specs, but as it was pre-patch, it was pretty broken. It was a potent attack that healed for a shitton. No, you should not be thinking "Hey, I'm low on health, I think I'll go find a mob to death strike to full!" Yet that's what I did. Over and over. Deathknights were already the best DPS class to handle AoE damage in PvE without deathstrike, they don't need another.
EDIT: You won't have 27k unbuffed hp if you are in DPS PvE gear. PvP gear has a shitton of stamina on it at the expense of damage stats, you realize.
it spam was not the top raid dps post 3.8 and in 3.8 it was not blowing the other comparable specs out of the water, it was merely another option for dw.
shadowfrost was overpowered as shit in arena however where spamming icy touch was a huge problem.
if you'd notice, the shadowfrost spec for arena has been completely destroyed.
weird.
as of know i don't.
You get a 10% boost from from all health effects in frost presence normally. The talent lets you retain that. For frost presence, it gives you an extra 2% damage reduction. It does not affect your health in frost presence, it merely lets you retain that aspect of the frost presence buff in other presences.
In tanking gear, I have about 27k HP unbuffed. PvP gear has about as much stam as some of the tanking gear out there.
And if you're frost spec, death strike isn't going to be hitting for a ton. And if you're in unholy presence, your hits will be for 15% less and you also lose the based 4% to heal that all your hits would normally retain.
Was this some sort of bug then?
This was post 3.1
The day after 3.1 came out, DS was super bugged to heal for an insane amount, so yes. That would be a bug. Thought it should be very apparent that a near 40k heal off deathstrike is a bug.
Has all the gear from Uludar been found yet? Hopefully there'll be a DK tanking upgrade somewhere (in terms of avoidance AND threat like Defeat).
Working as intended.
By the way, switched from Unholy to Blood.
My god. So fun. Also the rotations are 10 times easier to manage. So many damn death runes.
I see. Thank you.
i switch to blood for dps because i can't afford dual spec yet.
though i am going to have to buy dual spec and put a dps build in there. I'm kinda scared of leaving the frost tree. They have a solid frost dps build these days? though i guess Ulduar would require more single target damage.
i dunno.
Wait, you find there's a spec that's easier than unholy?
the diseaseless part was nerfed, but blood dps was boosted in 3.1. 2h unholy and any of the three dw specs were all competitive.
shadowfrost was the only spec at high level arenas. the only one. now in 3.1 theres at least 4 very viable specs to high level arena dks.
it wasn't bugged. it was healing for exactly the amount blizzard put it at.
40k yes. I said 19k. I only physically got healed for 500, the rest (18.5k) was overheal.
Of course, my incredulity was still very very high, but with a critical, improved blood presence, and vampiric blood active, I wasn't really sure if it was a bug or just plain op.
it really didn't, but i'm not going to argue this with you anymore.