Fuck Blood spec on this. The bigger issue is that this stupid solution Blizzard came up with renders DS completely useless for non-blood specs. It heals for nothing essentially. We're taking less then 3% of my health, and that's in DPS gear.
shryke on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2009
"Councilor, how can we be sure that the healing here on Death Strike is a bug?"
"Your honor, the facts speak for themselves."
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Fuck Blood spec on this. The bigger issue is that this stupid solution Blizzard came up with renders DS completely useless for non-blood specs. It heals for nothing essentially. We're taking less then 3% of my health, and that's in DPS gear.
It was still too much healing for unholy specs!
And probably frost, though I didn't test it in that!
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
So now it heals for crap for everybody except Blood DPS. Hurray! =/
There has to be a happier medium then gutting DS though, that's all I'm saying. Hopefully it will get looked into down the road.
On another topic, I picked up Slayer of the Lifeless this weekend in Naxx10 since it would have been sharded. Worth looking into some sort of Frost DW tank spec just for shits and giggles in heroics? I figure in Naxx10-25 gear it should help compensate for extra parry haste damage. Plus the healers wouldn't be as bored healing =p
Fuck Blood spec on this. The bigger issue is that this stupid solution Blizzard came up with renders DS completely useless for non-blood specs. It heals for nothing essentially. We're taking less then 3% of my health, and that's in DPS gear.
It was still too much healing for unholy specs!
And probably frost, though I didn't test it in that!
I don't think anyone's arguing that. Most of the complaints come from blizzard skipping right over 'fair' and landing in 'ridiculously underpowered' territory. For damn near every situation out there, there's a better use for the 2 runes it consumes the way things stand right now.
My shaman can solo elites with more effectiveness right now, and he's stuck wearing mail.
So now it heals for crap for everybody except Blood DPS. Hurray! =/
It heals for crap for everybody. The only people seeing heals over 2k are BIS, raid buffed uber DK's.
xzzy on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2009
It's undertuned, but I hardly count it as a required ability.
Also your shaman has healing spells. Like, spells that do nothing but heal. Spells that have a single purpose in their brief lifespan, and that is to increase your health from a point less than 100% to a point closer to 100%.
As a note, I saw a shaman wearing blues solo the captain fatass Durne the Hungerer in Nagrand at level 70.
Death strike should probably do minimal damage for Frost/Unholy while doing a moderate/lesser heal and do major damage for blood with a minimal heal.
Because there needs to be a greater tradeoff than "I won't do Oblit/SS damage, but it will be pretty balling and heal me fantasticall!"
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Fuck Blood spec on this. The bigger issue is that this stupid solution Blizzard came up with renders DS completely useless for non-blood specs. It heals for nothing essentially. We're taking less then 3% of my health, and that's in DPS gear.
It was still too much healing for unholy specs!
And probably frost, though I didn't test it in that!
What was?
Cause it wasn't too much before 3.1.
And now it's useless.
It's undertuned, but I hardly count it as a required ability.
It is a required ability.
shryke on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2009
Prior to 3.1 it counted all three diseases and it healed for a lot. If I was low on HP after a PvP battle, I would find a mob to fight so I could heal back up to full.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Prior to 3.1 it counted all three diseases and it healed for a lot. If I was low on HP after a PvP battle, I would find a mob to fight so I could heal back up to full.
I seriously thought that changing DS to be the default FU Blood attack was going to be tits for Blood tanking. I was happy to give it a whirl, and was hoping that maybe it would hit for like 2-3k on a crit, which would be tits and help out a bit to make Blood an actual healing tank spec.
Instead, in my full t7.5 gear, my crit DS's were healing me for about 1.2k.
They should just change it like IBF, and make the goddamn heal scale from like armor or something. I can understand not wanting DPS blood to be invulnerable healing machines, but now they've turned it into an almost useless move for tanking.
Ender on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Prior to 3.1 it counted all three diseases and it healed for a lot. If I was low on HP after a PvP battle, I would find a mob to fight so I could heal back up to full.
I think we're all talking past each other. I think we all agree for certain specs it was healing far more then intended, and nobody quite understands why Blizzard buffed its healing then hotfixed it to crap.
Why not limit it so it only works off Frost Fever and Blood Plague diseases, and retune its healing mechanic to on par with 3.0.9 levels? Or put a cap on it so the heal can only trigger once from a Death Strike every 15 seconds?
but now they've turned it into an almost useless move for tanking.
Useless if you lack a concept for positive mitigation.
You get hit for 10k damage as you do deathstrike.
Congratulations, the heal counts as mitigation. It's as if you took 1.5k less damage that hit.
Or, I could just spec frost and get hit 3% less.
Either or.
And that was a crit. When tanking, I don't have a high crit rate. A non-crit hit me for about 600. I have 31k hp unbuffed. That heal hit me for...2% of my health.
So I can average 1200 healing every 10 seconds, not counting reapplying diseases. In the healing spec. With 3 talents, a glyph, and a Sigil (did I mention I had the goddamn sigil equipped too?) all focused on making that worthwhile mitigation.
Pretty sure Judgement of Light does more, for more people, than what Blizzard is trying to call Blood's signature FU strike.
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree that it should heal for 10k a pop. But even double the healing on that ability wouldn't be overpowered in PvE.
Of course, I'm sure it would be in PvP, which is why I have my doubts that it will get changed.
Ender on
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
but now they've turned it into an almost useless move for tanking.
Useless if you lack a concept for positive mitigation.
You get hit for 10k damage as you do deathstrike.
Congratulations, the heal counts as mitigation. It's as if you took 1.5k less damage that hit.
1.5k heal in tanking gear? not happening with any regularity.
Angry on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Prior to 3.1 it counted all three diseases and it healed for a lot. If I was low on HP after a PvP battle, I would find a mob to fight so I could heal back up to full.
I think we're all talking past each other. I think we all agree for certain specs it was healing far more then intended, and nobody quite understands why Blizzard buffed its healing then hotfixed it to crap.
Why not limit it so it only works off Frost Fever and Blood Plague diseases, and retune its healing mechanic to on par with 3.0.9 levels? Or put a cap on it so the heal can only trigger once from a Death Strike every 15 seconds?
What I propose is that it does healing on par with pre-3.1 levels based on a maximum of 2 diseases but does minimal damage for non-blood specs. Cost vs Reward and all that. More of a conscious decision.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Because there needs to be a greater tradeoff than "I won't do Oblit/SS damage, but it will be pretty balling and heal me fantasticall!"
Which is the problem. DS was fine two weeks ago when the tradeoff was ass damage for some nice healing. Then they had to redesign the blood tree, let 3.1 go live, and now shit is all screwed up. This was a known problem on test, and Blizzard was warned about it. They ignored it and now we're all stuck considering whether to leave DS on our hotbar or not.
The complaint isn't nerfing, we all knew DS needed nerfed. It's the hamfisted "oh shit it's 4pm on Friday and stuff is imbalanced, what do we do??" fix that they used to deal with it.
Because there needs to be a greater tradeoff than "I won't do Oblit/SS damage, but it will be pretty balling and heal me fantasticall!"
Which is the problem. DS was fine two weeks ago when the tradeoff was ass damage for some nice healing. Then they had to redesign the blood tree, let 3.1 go live, and now shit is all screwed up. This was a known problem on test, and Blizzard was warned about it. They ignored it and now we're all stuck considering whether to leave DS on our hotbar or not.
The complaint isn't nerfing, we all knew DS needed nerfed. It's the hamfisted "oh shit it's 4pm on Friday and stuff is imbalanced, what do we do??" fix that they used to deal with it.
This.
I am not angry they nerfed DS, cause that shit was bananas.
I'm angry that they very casually and quickly (and I apologize for using an overused forum term) nerfed it to the ground.
Soloing my Dk does feel a little less effective for chain pulling then my Spriest. However the DK still slaughters for group pulls he just has to eat or bandage after.
I don't plan on raiding with him (not hardcore anyway). EVERYONE LOVES HASTE!. Or should I throw the talents in the blood tree? HMMMMMMMM. O god I forgot Glacier rot. Glacier Rot is awesome.
I don't plan on raiding with him (not hardcore anyway). EVERYONE LOVES HASTE!. Or should I throw the talents in the blood tree? HMMMMMMMM. O god I forgot Glacier rot. Glacier Rot is awesome.
Ok, I need some advice from fellow DK's, my guild is about to start doing naxx, and I'm kinda stumped about how to progress my gear. Sadly I can link my armoury profile (iPhone won't run it). Evidar EU-Azuremyst. What I'm looking for is any upgrades I can grab pre-naxx so I can be at my best hopefully to make progression as easy as possible. I have one or two naxx bits from OTing for a guild were friendly with, so basically I'm looking to replace the blues.
Also yes I know I'm missing a cloak and pants enchant. Haven't had the playtime to attach the enchants yet.
Naxx 10? I think that's just about as good as you can get pre-naxx.
Fair enough, what upgrades should I look out for in naxx 10 then?
Aside from the tier 7 tokens I'd keep an eye out for:
Abomination Shoulderblades - Patchwerk
Gauntlets of the Master - Grand Widow Faerlina
Thane's Tainted Greathelm - The Four Horsemen
Massive Skeletal Ribcage - Sapphiron
Death's Bite - Kel'Thuzad (if you're lucky :P)
Minion Bracers - Trash
You've already got the Defection Band and Plague-Impervious Boots from there, which is a head start. You might try to grab some 25-man loot if you can get in on one.
IT > PS > HS > HS > DS > HS > HS > HS > Pest (to refresh diseases)
In the middle of that rotation, i'll throw in a RP dump when I hit my maxed RP, but it varies from fight to fight.
Am I correct in assuming I never use Obliterate unless a mob is dying in the next 5 seconds? I just can't see any use for an ability that consumes my diseases.
I don't plan on raiding with him (not hardcore anyway). EVERYONE LOVES HASTE!. Or should I throw the talents in the blood tree? HMMMMMMMM. O god I forgot Glacier rot. Glacier Rot is awesome.
Couple Q's, why not take Icy reach? It doubles Howling Blasts effective range, seems good for AOE. IS death and decay really so awesome? I mean it just does mah AOE damage I thought. And why not deathchill? Deathchill + Howling blast = Mad AOE damage?
I know nothing about DK's other then they come back to life after I kill them. NOT ANYMORE!
I don't plan on raiding with him (not hardcore anyway). EVERYONE LOVES HASTE!. Or should I throw the talents in the blood tree? HMMMMMMMM. O god I forgot Glacier rot. Glacier Rot is awesome.
Couple Q's, why not take Icy reach? It doubles Howling Blasts effective range, seems good for AOE. IS death and decay really so awesome? I mean it just does mah AOE damage I thought. And why not deathchill? Deathchill + Howling blast = Mad AOE damage?
I know nothing about DK's other then they come back to life after I kill them. NOT ANYMORE!
Firstly, you are a melee class. Secondly, D&D has a 1.9x threat modifier, so if you're tanking without it you're doing something wrong.
I don't understand your first point. I am a melee class that has a kick ass 20 yard Cone AOE that applies diseases to all of them. That is totally ballin. My DK is level 58 so nothing has been done wrong YET.
I don't plan on raiding with him (not hardcore anyway). EVERYONE LOVES HASTE!. Or should I throw the talents in the blood tree? HMMMMMMMM. O god I forgot Glacier rot. Glacier Rot is awesome.
Couple Q's, why not take Icy reach? It doubles Howling Blasts effective range, seems good for AOE. IS death and decay really so awesome? I mean it just does mah AOE damage I thought. And why not deathchill? Deathchill + Howling blast = Mad AOE damage?
I know nothing about DK's other then they come back to life after I kill them. NOT ANYMORE!
DnD is pretty much a DK tanking must.
As far as Deathchill goes, I guess its kind of fun... but I don't think a single crit every three minutes is really that great. Think about it as far as what crit percentage that really adds.
*edit
re Icy Reach: He means you are going to be running in and whacking the enemy in the face anyway. Is it worth 2 talent points to not have to wait that extra 10 yards while running in?
Ahh, I forgot about the Howling Blast glyph. Yeah, it might be worth it to open with HB now, lay down D&D, and then spam Blood Boil as your opener.
Threat works pretty much the same for all classes. One point of damage is equal to one point of threat. A number of stats, such as Expertise, can improve your threat. A number of abilities also have threat modifiers, which give you increased threat per damage point, such as D&D or Rune Strike.
Personally I like to open with D&D because I can figure out exactly where I'm going to place it ahead of time and make sure it's on top of all my targets. And I've got Rune Strike macroed to most of my abilities so I hardly ever need to worry about making sure I'm using it.
I think I may just be obsessed with Howling blast. VOOOOSH.
TheCrumblyCracker on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2009
Right now for tanking I got DnD > IT > PS > Pest > HB > OB > OB
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Could I get by doing this -> DND -> HB > BS > BS > OB > OB > OB? Use BS to turn runes into death runes for more obliteration! God I want to play now when are exams done ffffff.
Could I get by doing this -> DND -> HB > BS > BS > OB > OB > OB? Use BS to turn runes into death runes for more obliteration! God I want to play now when are exams done ffffff.
If you've got the Howling Blast glyph, you should replace those BS with a single BB, since you'll only have one rune open anyway, and it'll affect all targets around you.
edit: but without the HB glyph that rotation is going to do significantly less threat than munkus'
Posts
I don't even think anyone here is arguing anymore that blood Death Strike wasn't overpowered, are they? If so, that's pretty sad.
so thats the new name for a spec that is dead.
"Your honor, the facts speak for themselves."
It was still too much healing for unholy specs!
And probably frost, though I didn't test it in that!
There has to be a happier medium then gutting DS though, that's all I'm saying. Hopefully it will get looked into down the road.
On another topic, I picked up Slayer of the Lifeless this weekend in Naxx10 since it would have been sharded. Worth looking into some sort of Frost DW tank spec just for shits and giggles in heroics? I figure in Naxx10-25 gear it should help compensate for extra parry haste damage. Plus the healers wouldn't be as bored healing =p
I don't think anyone's arguing that. Most of the complaints come from blizzard skipping right over 'fair' and landing in 'ridiculously underpowered' territory. For damn near every situation out there, there's a better use for the 2 runes it consumes the way things stand right now.
My shaman can solo elites with more effectiveness right now, and he's stuck wearing mail.
It heals for crap for everybody. The only people seeing heals over 2k are BIS, raid buffed uber DK's.
Also your shaman has healing spells. Like, spells that do nothing but heal. Spells that have a single purpose in their brief lifespan, and that is to increase your health from a point less than 100% to a point closer to 100%.
As a note, I saw a shaman wearing blues solo the captain fatass Durne the Hungerer in Nagrand at level 70.
Death strike should probably do minimal damage for Frost/Unholy while doing a moderate/lesser heal and do major damage for blood with a minimal heal.
Because there needs to be a greater tradeoff than "I won't do Oblit/SS damage, but it will be pretty balling and heal me fantasticall!"
What was?
Cause it wasn't too much before 3.1.
And now it's useless.
It is a required ability.
Paladins do the same with mana.
You want a hanky?
Instead, in my full t7.5 gear, my crit DS's were healing me for about 1.2k.
They should just change it like IBF, and make the goddamn heal scale from like armor or something. I can understand not wanting DPS blood to be invulnerable healing machines, but now they've turned it into an almost useless move for tanking.
Useless if you lack a concept for positive mitigation.
You get hit for 10k damage as you do deathstrike.
Congratulations, the heal counts as mitigation. It's as if you took 1.5k less damage that hit.
I think we're all talking past each other. I think we all agree for certain specs it was healing far more then intended, and nobody quite understands why Blizzard buffed its healing then hotfixed it to crap.
Why not limit it so it only works off Frost Fever and Blood Plague diseases, and retune its healing mechanic to on par with 3.0.9 levels? Or put a cap on it so the heal can only trigger once from a Death Strike every 15 seconds?
Or, I could just spec frost and get hit 3% less.
Either or.
And that was a crit. When tanking, I don't have a high crit rate. A non-crit hit me for about 600. I have 31k hp unbuffed. That heal hit me for...2% of my health.
So I can average 1200 healing every 10 seconds, not counting reapplying diseases. In the healing spec. With 3 talents, a glyph, and a Sigil (did I mention I had the goddamn sigil equipped too?) all focused on making that worthwhile mitigation.
Pretty sure Judgement of Light does more, for more people, than what Blizzard is trying to call Blood's signature FU strike.
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree that it should heal for 10k a pop. But even double the healing on that ability wouldn't be overpowered in PvE.
Of course, I'm sure it would be in PvP, which is why I have my doubts that it will get changed.
1.5k heal in tanking gear? not happening with any regularity.
What I propose is that it does healing on par with pre-3.1 levels based on a maximum of 2 diseases but does minimal damage for non-blood specs. Cost vs Reward and all that. More of a conscious decision.
Which is the problem. DS was fine two weeks ago when the tradeoff was ass damage for some nice healing. Then they had to redesign the blood tree, let 3.1 go live, and now shit is all screwed up. This was a known problem on test, and Blizzard was warned about it. They ignored it and now we're all stuck considering whether to leave DS on our hotbar or not.
The complaint isn't nerfing, we all knew DS needed nerfed. It's the hamfisted "oh shit it's 4pm on Friday and stuff is imbalanced, what do we do??" fix that they used to deal with it.
This.
I am not angry they nerfed DS, cause that shit was bananas.
I'm angry that they very casually and quickly (and I apologize for using an overused forum term) nerfed it to the ground.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEZG0xtA0Ikckisst:awTMmV
I know notihng about Deathknigths, but I plan on using Obliterate because, DUDE ITS CALLED OBLITERATE.
Really bad. You didn't take Toughness or Anticipation.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZhxx0AbIoc0iost0gh:awdMmV This is closer to what you should be looking at.
WOOPS! How about.. http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcxZhgxtN0hkczisst0x:awTMmV !
Better, but any reason why you want the haste buff talents? Its not ideal for a frost tank, especially if you have a shaman available in the raid.
Try something like this?
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZGxx0AbI0cziost0xh:awTMmV
Aside from the tier 7 tokens I'd keep an eye out for:
Abomination Shoulderblades - Patchwerk
Gauntlets of the Master - Grand Widow Faerlina
Thane's Tainted Greathelm - The Four Horsemen
Massive Skeletal Ribcage - Sapphiron
Death's Bite - Kel'Thuzad (if you're lucky :P)
Minion Bracers - Trash
You've already got the Defection Band and Plague-Impervious Boots from there, which is a head start. You might try to grab some 25-man loot if you can get in on one.
Right now i'm basically doing.
IT > PS > HS > HS > DS > HS > HS > HS > Pest (to refresh diseases)
In the middle of that rotation, i'll throw in a RP dump when I hit my maxed RP, but it varies from fight to fight.
Am I correct in assuming I never use Obliterate unless a mob is dying in the next 5 seconds? I just can't see any use for an ability that consumes my diseases.
Couple Q's, why not take Icy reach? It doubles Howling Blasts effective range, seems good for AOE. IS death and decay really so awesome? I mean it just does mah AOE damage I thought. And why not deathchill? Deathchill + Howling blast = Mad AOE damage?
I know nothing about DK's other then they come back to life after I kill them. NOT ANYMORE!
Firstly, you are a melee class. Secondly, D&D has a 1.9x threat modifier, so if you're tanking without it you're doing something wrong.
DnD is pretty much a DK tanking must.
As far as Deathchill goes, I guess its kind of fun... but I don't think a single crit every three minutes is really that great. Think about it as far as what crit percentage that really adds.
*edit
re Icy Reach: He means you are going to be running in and whacking the enemy in the face anyway. Is it worth 2 talent points to not have to wait that extra 10 yards while running in?
tankspot needs to release their DK tanking guide faster.
Threat works pretty much the same for all classes. One point of damage is equal to one point of threat. A number of stats, such as Expertise, can improve your threat. A number of abilities also have threat modifiers, which give you increased threat per damage point, such as D&D or Rune Strike.
Personally I like to open with D&D because I can figure out exactly where I'm going to place it ahead of time and make sure it's on top of all my targets. And I've got Rune Strike macroed to most of my abilities so I hardly ever need to worry about making sure I'm using it.
If you've got the Howling Blast glyph, you should replace those BS with a single BB, since you'll only have one rune open anyway, and it'll affect all targets around you.
edit: but without the HB glyph that rotation is going to do significantly less threat than munkus'