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Federal judge rules against Treasure Dept.

124

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    Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited November 2006
    ElJeffe wrote:
    It's entirely possible that my behavior would dramatically change. My point was that if I just suddenly replaced all the ones I carry with coins, it would pretty much blow. YMMV.

    Think about it - right now, the coins in your pocket are almost entirely useless. Whenever you're at home and you think about it, you probably chuck them into a jar or something. So you just always have a pocketful of metal that rarely gets used for anything.

    Having higher denominations of coins makes there a reason to actually have coins in your pocket.

    Irond Will on
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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    ElJeffe wrote:
    ElJeffe wrote:
    Doc wrote:
    Gafoto wrote:
    No, fuck coins. Coins blow ass. When I went to Japan I would always end up making a few small purchases and end up with about 40 pounds of yen. Getting about 20 coins back anytime I make a purchase doesn't appeal to me.

    If you have no pennies and add $1 and $2 coins, you'll end up with fewer overall coins than you had before, as you remove up to 4 coins and add a maximum of 2.

    Yes, because I never, at any time have more than 4 pennies, or 1 nickel, or 3 quarters, or 4 ones. Places of business never run out of 5s and have to give me a handful of ones. In my wallet, right now, I do not have about 10 ones.

    Carting around a pocketful of silver dollars would be a fucking pain. Not everyone carries around whatever configuration of bills and coins maximizes efficiency.
    My real-world experience with dollar and 2-dollar coins seems to contradict your hypothetical assumptions.

    It's entirely possible that my behavior would dramatically change. My point was that if I just suddenly replaced all the ones I carry with coins, it would pretty much blow. YMMV.

    As someone who has spent a reasonable amount of time in both Australia and Canada, the behavior does change quite a bit. Australia's two dollar coin is about the size of a US dime, but 2-3x as thick. Their dollar coin is a bit bigger than a quarter, and just a tad thicker. They are easy enough to keep track of, but not a pain to carry around.

    I have about six one dollar bills in my wallet right now, so your situation isn't unique. :)

    Doc on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Irond Will wrote:
    ElJeffe wrote:
    It's entirely possible that my behavior would dramatically change. My point was that if I just suddenly replaced all the ones I carry with coins, it would pretty much blow. YMMV.

    Think about it - right now, the coins in your pocket are almost entirely useless. Whenever you're at home and you think about it, you probably chuck them into a jar or something. So you just always have a pocketful of metal that rarely gets used for anything.

    Having higher denominations of coins makes there a reason to actually have coins in your pocket.

    Besides you can always just bump up your smallest bill to a Finski and not have to worry about it until you purchase something. Then you'd run into what Doc talked about and have an equivalent amount of coinage regardless.

    moniker on
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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    The mistake they've made in the past while trying to introduce dollar coins is the continued production of dollar notes, and the lack of a two dollar coin.

    If they just said "yeah, we're getting rid of the dollar bill. Get used to the coins," people would be forced to deal with it and realize it's not as bad as they think.

    Doc on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited November 2006
    Man, as small as a dime? I'm always losing change from my pockets. It's not so bad when I've just lost 40 cents, but if I've just lost $10, it would kinda suck.

    I will continue to embrace the false wisdom of tradition, and sneer derisively at the force of change. Keep your buns off my ones! Or something!

    ElJeffe on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    ElJeffe wrote:
    Man, as small as a dime? I'm always losing change from my pockets. It's not so bad when I've just lost 40 cents, but if I've just lost $10, it would kinda suck.

    I will continue to embrace the false wisdom of tradition, and sneer derisively at the force of change. Keep your buns off my ones! Or something!

    Yeah, I prefer the sizings of the Euros. They seemed about right, with the exception of some of the smaller denominations. (their 1 cent piece was like half a penny)

    Look on the bright side, though. You could probably buy a Wii from the change in your sofa if you used Sacagaweas.

    moniker on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Doc wrote:
    The mistake they've made in the past while trying to introduce dollar coins is the continued production of dollar notes, and the lack of a two dollar coin.

    If they just said "yeah, we're getting rid of the dollar bill. Get used to the coins," people would be forced to deal with it and realize it's not as bad as they think.

    I heartily agree with this assessment. If we had dollar/two-dollar coins, I might actually carry more cash.


    ElJeffe wrote:
    Man, as small as a dime? I'm always losing change from my pockets. It's not so bad when I've just lost 40 cents, but if I've just lost $10, it would kinda suck.

    I will continue to embrace the false wisdom of tradition, and sneer derisively at the force of change. Keep your buns off my ones! Or something!

    Yeah, dime-sized ones might not work as well for me. But something a bit bigger or smaller than a quarter? I rarely lose quarters. I think the only reason most people lose/throw-away so much change is because of the perceived low value...not because change is somehow "easier" to lose. I'm highly unlikely to lose a $100 bill, but I lose notes/phone-numbers/addresses scribbled on similarly sized pieces of paper all the time.

    Edited because my copy/paste skills went south for a minute there.

    mcdermott on
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    TiemlerTiemler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Echo wrote:
    Norway isn't a EU member, so it's not on the coin. Thus making Sweden look like a wang and Finland being ye olde nutsack.

    That's a cute retcon of the map.

    Wait, is it a threat? Join the EU, or else!

    Tiemler on
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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    Tiemler wrote:
    Echo wrote:
    Norway isn't a EU member, so it's not on the coin. Thus making Sweden look like a wang and Finland being ye olde nutsack.

    That's a cute retcon of the map.

    Wait, is it a threat? Join the EU, or else!

    They are lining up the explosives and tugboats now. Norway will soon be Iceland's sister island.

    Doc on
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    khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    mcdermott wrote:
    Doc wrote:
    The mistake they've made in the past while trying to introduce dollar coins is the continued production of dollar notes, and the lack of a two dollar coin.

    If they just said "yeah, we're getting rid of the dollar bill. Get used to the coins," people would be forced to deal with it and realize it's not as bad as they think.

    I heartily agree with this assessment. If we had dollar/two-dollar coins, I might actually carry more cash.


    ElJeffe wrote:
    Man, as small as a dime? I'm always losing change from my pockets. It's not so bad when I've just lost 40 cents, but if I've just lost $10, it would kinda suck.

    I will continue to embrace the false wisdom of tradition, and sneer derisively at the force of change. Keep your buns off my ones! Or something!

    Yeah, dime-sized ones might not work as well for me. But something a bit bigger or smaller than a quarter? I rarely lose quarters. I think the only reason most people lose/throw-away so much change is because of the perceived low value...not because change is somehow "easier" to lose. I'm highly unlikely to lose a $100 bill, but I lose notes/phone-numbers/addresses scribbled on similarly sized pieces of paper all the time.

    Edited because my copy/paste skills went south for a minute there.

    Maybe this is jsut me, but not only does change seem worthless, its jsut annoying. It's heavier than bills and is a noticable difference whe nyour carrying some. Also it clinks around which is somewhat annoying.

    I went to Germany for a month and a half a while ago, before the Euro, and I'm not sure what denomination coins they had, but I do remeber that I just did the exact same thing I do in the US and tossed all my change on my desk because I didn't want to carry it around.

    khain on
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    DalbozDalboz Resident Puppy Eater Right behind you...Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    I can see only two solutions to this.

    1) Coins. However, this has already been pretty much rejected by the public. The attempt to issue dollar coins a few years ago was a huge flop, as people held on to them and no one used them. They stopped minting dollar coins a couple of years ago except for collector's sets.

    2) All money transfers become electronic, like with credit or ATM cards, or a cash card of some sort that has a set amount on it that is deducted as it's used. Think of the "paper" money used in Futurama.

    Dalboz on
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Dalboz wrote:
    I can see only two solutions to this.

    1) Coins. However, this has already been pretty much rejected by the public. The attempt to issue dollar coins a few years ago was a huge flop, as people held on to them and no one used them. They stopped minting dollar coins a couple of years ago except for collector's sets.

    This is because the Treasury was being retarded. They should have phased out paper $1s while issuing dollar coins. As it was, it's the same shit they've tried before (Susan B. Anthony dollar coin, anyone?) and everyone knew it wouldn't work, so everyone hoarded the dollar coins, thinking they'd become rare.

    Daedalus on
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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Dalboz wrote:
    2) All money transfers become electronic, like with credit or ATM cards, or a cash card of some sort that has a set amount on it that is deducted as it's used. Think of the "paper" money used in Futurama.

    but, then how would I buy drugs and gamble? Fuck electronic money.




    Euro paper money is neat, brail would be alright. I like $1 and $2 coins too.

    redx on
    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Dalboz wrote:
    I can see only two solutions to this.

    1) Coins. However, this has already been pretty much rejected by the public. The attempt to issue dollar coins a few years ago was a huge flop, as people held on to them and no one used them. They stopped minting dollar coins a couple of years ago except for collector's sets.

    This is because the Treasury was being retarded. They should have phased out paper $1s while issuing dollar coins. As it was, it's the same shit they've tried before (Susan B. Anthony dollar coin, anyone?) and everyone knew it wouldn't work, so everyone hoarded the dollar coins, thinking they'd become rare.

    Seriously. "People given option not to change, and choose not to. Film at 11!"

    Take people's dollar bills away, give them $1 and $2 coins, and then see what happens. My guess? A majority won't care, and the people who liked the old bills better will be offset by the people who like the new coins better.

    mcdermott on
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    Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    Irond Will wrote:
    Really, though, the English rely almost exclusively on pound coins, and to some extent when I lived there back in 1988, two-pound coins. It didn't seem to be chafing their thighs too badly, and it was convenient to not have to whip out your wallet for minor purchases.
    What seems somewhat important to me is also that the British Pound is worth more too, yet they still manage with them as coins. It was a little weird holding a simple coin and realising that it was worth a little more than $5 Canadian (and could also buy, roughly, what $5 would get me back home).

    Also, a barely related question: are Canada and the U.S. the only places that use the 0.01, 0.05, 0.10, 0.25, 1, etc. decimal system? Everywhere else I've been goes 0.005, 0.01, 0.02, 0.05, 0.10, 0.20, 0.50, 1 (I think I'm getting that right).

    Andrew_Jay on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited November 2006
    mcdermott wrote:
    Dalboz wrote:
    I can see only two solutions to this.

    1) Coins. However, this has already been pretty much rejected by the public. The attempt to issue dollar coins a few years ago was a huge flop, as people held on to them and no one used them. They stopped minting dollar coins a couple of years ago except for collector's sets.

    This is because the Treasury was being retarded. They should have phased out paper $1s while issuing dollar coins. As it was, it's the same shit they've tried before (Susan B. Anthony dollar coin, anyone?) and everyone knew it wouldn't work, so everyone hoarded the dollar coins, thinking they'd become rare.

    Seriously. "People given option not to change, and choose not to. Film at 11!"

    Take people's dollar bills away, give them $1 and $2 coins, and then see what happens. My guess? A majority won't care, and the people who liked the old bills better will be offset by the people who like the new coins better.

    Not a big deal but the few times I visited Canada I always hated the feeling of haivng like 15 dollars in change in my pockets

    nexuscrawler on
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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2006
    Dalboz wrote:
    I can see only two solutions to this.

    1) Coins. However, this has already been pretty much rejected by the public. The attempt to issue dollar coins a few years ago was a huge flop, as people held on to them and no one used them. They stopped minting dollar coins a couple of years ago except for collector's sets.

    This is because the Treasury was being retarded. They should have phased out paper $1s while issuing dollar coins. As it was, it's the same shit they've tried before (Susan B. Anthony dollar coin, anyone?) and everyone knew it wouldn't work, so everyone hoarded the dollar coins, thinking they'd become rare.

    Doc on
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2006
    Doc wrote:
    The mistake they've made in the past while trying to introduce dollar coins is the continued production of dollar notes, and the lack of a two dollar coin.

    If they just said "yeah, we're getting rid of the dollar bill. Get used to the coins," people would be forced to deal with it and realize it's not as bad as they think.

    If it saves money, I'm all for it.

    Shinto on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited November 2006
    Andrew_Jay wrote:
    Everywhere else I've been goes 0.005, 0.01, 0.02, 0.05, 0.10, 0.20, 0.50, 1 (I think I'm getting that right).

    So there exists a denomination even more worthless than the US penny? Awesome.

    ElJeffe on
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    Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited November 2006
    ElJeffe wrote:
    Andrew_Jay wrote:
    Everywhere else I've been goes 0.005, 0.01, 0.02, 0.05, 0.10, 0.20, 0.50, 1 (I think I'm getting that right).

    So there exists a denomination even more worthless than the US penny? Awesome.

    The Canadian Peso?

    Irond Will on
    Wqdwp8l.png
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2006
    There's still a crapload of vending machines, and a certain number of busses, that will eat or reject the dollar coins. I think if they had encouraged the updating of vending/coin counts to recognize it, it would have been better.

    You're not really encouraged to spend with the coins if you don't know it's going to work, because you can't get it back.

    FyreWulff on
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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited December 2006
    Andrew_Jay wrote:
    Also, a barely related question: are Canada and the U.S. the only places that use the 0.01, 0.05, 0.10, 0.25, 1, etc. decimal system? Everywhere else I've been goes 0.005, 0.01, 0.02, 0.05, 0.10, 0.20, 0.50, 1 (I think I'm getting that right).

    Is that minted coinage with those values?

    Sweden used to have 0.10 SEK coins, but they got axed about 15 years ago. We have 0.50 and 1 SEK coins left.

    Echo on
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    DeepQantasDeepQantas Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Hm. Hey guys. If anything the different sized bills make them wallets more orderly. That's my case at least up to 50 eurobucks.


    Also, the new national anthem for the US should be written by Tom Waits. It's the only way. Hell, I wonder if he'd write one for us. :P

    DeepQantas on
    m~
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    khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    DeepQantas wrote:
    Hm. Hey guys. If anything the different sized bills make them wallets more orderly. That's my case at least up to 50 eurobucks.

    It does? I already order the bills in my wallet by denomination anyway and I usually tend to take them all out as a stack and then flip through them when I pay in cash.

    khain on
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    mccmcc glitch Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2006
    If they'd just waited a few years, they could have gotten around all of this by declaring blind people can just use debit cards to buy everything. Seriously, who uses money anymore?

    mcc on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    mcc wrote:
    If they'd just waited a few years, they could have gotten around all of this by declaring blind people can just use debit cards to buy everything. Seriously, who uses money anymore?
    moniker wrote:
    And what of Salvation Army bell ringers or kids with candy bars? They are quite literally being nickled and dimed into helping people out. If you just put up a website and beg for donations there I doubt they'd rake in anywhere near the same amount as the collectors alone, let alone the current hybrid.

    Plus all the people living paycheck to paycheck and don't have a checking account setup.

    moniker on
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    blizzard224blizzard224 Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    dollar.jpg

    :winky:

    (No, seriously. I know you probably get used to it, but last time I was in America I reckon I wasted 100 bucks over 2 weeks in giving people the wrong notes and not havin them correct me)

    blizzard224 on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    PataPata Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    (No, seriously. I know you probably get used to it, but last time I was in America I reckon I wasted 100 bucks over 2 weeks in giving people the wrong notes and not havin them correct me)

    Wha?

    How hard is it to glance at the number?

    Really. All modern currency has, you know, those numbers detailing their value on them.

    I can see the problem for blind people etc. But anyone who can see can deal with numbers.

    Pata on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    (No, seriously. I know you probably get used to it, but last time I was in America I reckon I wasted 100 bucks over 2 weeks in giving people the wrong notes and not havin them correct me)

    Wha?

    How hard is it to glance at the number?

    Really. All modern currency has, you know, those numbers detailing their value on them.

    I can see the problem for blind people etc. But anyone who can see can deal with numbers.

    Also, portraits. Washington doesn't look like Lincoln who doesn't look like Jackson who doesn't look like Franklin.

    moniker on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    (No, seriously. I know you probably get used to it, but last time I was in America I reckon I wasted 100 bucks over 2 weeks in giving people the wrong notes and not havin them correct me)

    Our bills have the number written like 8 times in every corner of both sides of the bill. One of which is in plain arial-esque type on a plain background [EDIT: except, I believe, on the one-dollar bill...until they get redesigned].

    I mean, I can understand talking about making bills easier to distinguish for blind people...but color-coding them for people who just can't read a damned number?

    Bah.

    And for those whose eyesight isn't so great, there are giant pictures on both sides that are pretty easy to tell apart. In fact, I never actually look at the numbers, because I have which picture is which memorized...this really isn't that much harder than memorizing colors.

    So again, I say fuck this monopoly money bullshit.

    EDIT:

    Seriously:

    250px-US_%245_obverse.jpg

    vs.

    255px-US_%2410_Series_2003_obverse.jpg

    vs.

    300px-US20-front.jpg

    If these look the same to you, I'm not sure color is going to help.

    mcdermott on
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2006
    dollar.jpg

    :winky:

    (No, seriously. I know you probably get used to it, but last time I was in America I reckon I wasted 100 bucks over 2 weeks in giving people the wrong notes and not havin them correct me)

    one_dollar_bill.jpg
    1144109373T9Dsse.jpg
    93788893_9476eb02a3_m.jpg

    So . . . you were confused by all the very large font numbers at each corner of the bill and the denomination of the bill written out across the bottom of each side?

    Shinto on
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    DynagripDynagrip Break me a million hearts HoustonRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2006
    I keep reading this as Feral Judge

    Dynagrip on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    You know, I was thinking for a second that perhaps, just maybe, "bald guy with mullet=$100" and "gaunt, dead looking guy=$20" might actually be more difficult to learn than "blue=$10" and "green=$200."

    Then I realized that no, it really isn't. Both just take time. I doubt I could go to any of your crazy monopoly-money countries and have the color scheme memorized day one. My recent trip to Canada would seem to support this. So no matter where you go, you're probably going to end up having to look at the damned numbers emblazoned all over the things rather than relying on any other differentiation scheme...be it giant pictures of old dead guys, colors, or both.

    mcdermott on
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    GiganticusGiganticus Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    DELETED

    Giganticus on
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    ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Dynagrip wrote:
    I keep reading this as Feral Judge
    By "rule against" they mean "gave rabies."

    Elendil on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Giganticus wrote:
    I have extremely poor vision. I'm 20/300 or so. I have an astigmatism so I have to use glasses, not contacts. Around this time of year it rains so much that I have to take my glasses off while outside.

    Without my glasses, I have to hold a banknote about 8 inches from my face to read the numbers. This would be with British money, with much clearer and larger numbers on the notes than US dollars. With dollars, there would be no way in hell I could tell the difference without putting notes right up to my face and analysing each one. It would make shopping extremely hard as I would have to spend a long time sorting notes.

    However, the colour and size of British notes - far less colorful than those notes in the top pic mind - means I can choose my money simply. Blues are £5, Oranges are £10, Purples are £20 and Pinks are £50. And the fivers are the smallest notes. I don't have any trouble selecting notes out of a fistful of them in my pocket. I can count how much money I have with ease. These are such simple provisions that improve my standard of living significantly (remember, we have to use currency every day), it avoids my embarrasement and apologies in the shopping line, and it means I can be sure I have the right change without having to get the guy iin line behind me to count it.

    But seriously, go right ahead. Tell me I have to fucking squint at your numbers, notice the minute details like moustaches and beards on the faces of the notes, just because you want your money to have "dignity". Doesn't the dignity of me - and other people with severe sight problems - matter more?

    For those with such extreme visual impairment, the new features such as embossing, size difference, or braille that will (hopefully) be added to help the blind might actually be just as effective...though yes, obviously color-coding would be easier. So this is a fair point.

    I was more arguing to blizzard's complaint that our lack of color coding would lead foreign visitors to spend the wrong bills...at which point it's unlikely a tourist is going to have the color scheme memorized well enough to be confident not looking at the numbers either.

    mcdermott on
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    SithDrummerSithDrummer Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    (No, seriously. I know you probably get used to it, but last time I was in America I reckon I wasted 100 bucks over 2 weeks in giving people the wrong notes and not havin them correct me)
    My mistake wasn't nearly so costly as yours, but at a coffee shop in Germany, when I received a few coins as change I simply left them as a tip for the waitress, partially out of habit (coins are left at the table). Later I realized I'd left about a 100% tip, because they were Euros.

    On the other hand, she was hot and very pleased at the tip, so I didn't mind a whole lot.

    SithDrummer on
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    KMGorKMGor Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Sometimes being seen as stubborn, stupid and backwards in regards to stuff like currency and measurement systems as compared to Europeans/Australians makes me feel sort of proud.

    Oh, and I just have one thing to add... As far as I can recall, most US-based businesses are required to take any legal currency in the US. I believe businesses can not simply refuse your money because it is old or whatever - for example, they can't refuse $2s. Just in response to people talking about "exchanging" currency. They can't and won't do it that way.

    KMGor on
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    Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User regular
    edited May 2021
    -

    Andrew_Jay on
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    SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I don't think anyone out there is confused by the money when viewed head-on, Shinto. The question is one of efficiency. Expressing the difference between things in multiple ways makes recognition of the difference inherently more efficient; hence, you guys use different designs and pictures as well as different numerals on your denominations. Cognitive studies have shown that color is one of the first distinguishers used by the brain in differentiating things; fine details come much later in the chain.

    Color, then, makes the process more efficient. You no longer need to peak at the corner or view it head on in order to determine the denominations of the bills in your wallet. A view of any edge will impart that information. And of course such an arrangement has benefits for the partially sighted who might be able to determine color but not resolve the fine details on the bills.

    As for why some foreigners get confused despite the (yes, obvious) design differences, the explanation should be obvious: If you've spent 20 years being conditioned to associate the particular green of all US denominations with, say, a $20 bill, when you aren't thinking about it some day in the US you might simply pull out a green bill and hand it over to a clerk too unscrupulous to alert you to the mistake. Certainly here I don't pull out a bill, look at it, and then hand it over; that would be absurd, as I know as soon as I reach for the edge of it in my wallet what value it has. Old habits can be hard to break.

    Senjutsu on
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