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Women and children first!

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    freelancerbobfreelancerbob UKRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    i don't beleive in the Kobayashi Maru. I'd just engineer my own damn lifeboat, and sail to mexico and freedom.

    freelancerbob on
    What is this thing that is happening here.
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2009
    i don't beleive in the Kobayashi Maru. I'd just engineer my own damn lifeboat, and sail to mexico and freedom.

    Well I mean human bodies are buoyant, as long as I don't use any women or children I can just kill a bunch of other men and make a boat out of their corpses.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    Because in 1912, Chivalry was still alive.

    Today, Chivalry is dead.

    Chivalry was a cruel code of behaviour used to idolise some women while debasing the rest on the basis of birth, and never once did it attempt to treat women as people. Chivalry can fuck right off.

    We already went over this for like five pages
    death is no kind of life at all

    If that makes sense, im trying to say the obligation to "save" is short sighted and unnatural

    Everyone dies eventually. I don't see what's so "short-sighted" or "unnatural" about giving your spot up for somebody else. Yeah you die, obviously, but that's an inevitability anyway, it's just a matter of when. Might as well do it in such a way that it helps people out.

    I'm not saying I would necessarily do this myself because I don't know what I'd do in a life or death situation like the one being described here. But I really don't see how people are really gung-ho about this "I GOTTA LIVE, FUCK EVERYBODY ELSE, LET THOSE KIDS DROWN" attitude.

    Duffel on
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Well I mean human bodies are buoyant, as long as I don't use any women or children I can just kill a bunch of other men and make a boat out of their corpses.
    Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus already did it

    Duffel on
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    Zombie MonkeyZombie Monkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    saint2e wrote: »
    Because in 1912, Chivalry was still alive.

    Today, Chivalry is dead.

    Chivalry was a cruel code of behaviour used to idolise some women while debasing the rest on the basis of birth, and never once did it attempt to treat women as people. Chivalry can fuck right off.

    We already went over this for like five pages
    death is no kind of life at all

    If that makes sense, im trying to say the obligation to "save" is short sighted and unnatural

    Everyone dies eventually. I don't see what's so "short-sighted" or "unnatural" about giving your spot up for somebody else. Yeah you die, obviously, but that's an inevitability anyway, it's just a matter of when. Might as well do it in such a way that it helps people out.

    I'm not saying I would necessarily do this myself because I don't know what I'd do in a life or death situation like the one being described here. But I really don't see how people are really gung-ho about this "I GOTTA LIVE, FUCK EVERYBODY ELSE, LET THOSE KIDS DROWN" attitude.

    See this i cant understand, it comes across so zen and casual, which is admirable other for the fact that its retarded. Unless you have a terminal disease and dont have long left i cant understand the reason behind this "logic", course we are all going to die some day, but at my age i should have another 50, 60 years left, i could get hit by a bus when i hit the shore rendering my will to live somewhat moot but so could the kid if i saved him.

    And the "i gotta live, let kids drown bit" im not made of stone and im not trying to say that the situation can give any real good, im not saying drowning kids is good or that having got to safety i wont reflect on the situation and live with the decision. All im saying is that pound for pound, life for life i have no qualms about taking a seat on the boat over anyone else, age, gender, race, alls equal

    Zombie Monkey on
    League of Legends - Enzo III
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    AsiinaAsiina ... WaterlooRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    i don't beleive in the Kobayashi Maru. I'd just engineer my own damn lifeboat, and sail to mexico and freedom.

    Well I mean human bodies are buoyant, as long as I don't use any women or children I can just kill a bunch of other men and make a boat out of their corpses.

    I think I read a comic book recently where this happened. They should make a movie about it! olol

    Seriously though, I can't imagine saving my own life at the expense of a child. Sure it would suck, a lot, and dying is terrible, but do you people have no sense of giving your lives for the next generation? It seems so biologically and societally ingrained into me that the survival of children > *

    Maybe it's a woman thing or maybe you're all cold-blooded child murders. I dunno.

    Asiina on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    Well I mean human bodies are buoyant, as long as I don't use any women or children I can just kill a bunch of other men and make a boat out of their corpses.
    Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus already did it

    They just used people who had already died. I'm saying I'll go ahead and kill a bunch of men, and that should be fine with this horse-owning lot.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    Zombie MonkeyZombie Monkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Asiina wrote: »
    i don't beleive in the Kobayashi Maru. I'd just engineer my own damn lifeboat, and sail to mexico and freedom.

    Well I mean human bodies are buoyant, as long as I don't use any women or children I can just kill a bunch of other men and make a boat out of their corpses.

    I think I read a comic book recently where this happened. They should make a movie about it! olol

    Seriously though, I can't imagine saving my own life at the expense of a child. Sure it would suck, a lot, and dying is terrible, but do you people have no sense of giving your lives for the next generation? It seems so biologically and societally ingrained into me that the survival of children > *

    Maybe it's a woman thing or maybe you're all cold-blooded child murders. I dunno.

    Current generation>Future generation

    Zombie Monkey on
    League of Legends - Enzo III
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    They just used people who had already died. I'm saying I'll go ahead and kill a bunch of men, and that should be fine with this horse-owning lot.
    I can't really say why but this made me think of that Terry Goodkind discussion we had a couple of weeks ago

    Duffel on
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    AsiinaAsiina ... WaterlooRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Asiina wrote: »
    i don't beleive in the Kobayashi Maru. I'd just engineer my own damn lifeboat, and sail to mexico and freedom.

    Well I mean human bodies are buoyant, as long as I don't use any women or children I can just kill a bunch of other men and make a boat out of their corpses.

    I think I read a comic book recently where this happened. They should make a movie about it! olol

    Seriously though, I can't imagine saving my own life at the expense of a child. Sure it would suck, a lot, and dying is terrible, but do you people have no sense of giving your lives for the next generation? It seems so biologically and societally ingrained into me that the survival of children > *

    Maybe it's a woman thing or maybe you're all cold-blooded child murders. I dunno.

    Current generation>Future generation

    Not really, no.

    Asiina on
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2009
    chaosbear wrote: »
    Well, despite Titanic being a crap movie, Leo died for the woman he loved.

    In a situation where it is my wife or myself, I die, she lives. I don't have to think about it, that is just the way it is. My warm heart may not keep me from freezing, but the thought that the woman I love will live will make the icing up easier to deal with mentally.

    Why? She only goes on to find another man and shack up with him, remembering you periodically at best.

    DarkWarrior on
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    Zombie MonkeyZombie Monkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Asiina wrote: »
    Asiina wrote: »
    i don't beleive in the Kobayashi Maru. I'd just engineer my own damn lifeboat, and sail to mexico and freedom.

    Well I mean human bodies are buoyant, as long as I don't use any women or children I can just kill a bunch of other men and make a boat out of their corpses.

    I think I read a comic book recently where this happened. They should make a movie about it! olol

    Seriously though, I can't imagine saving my own life at the expense of a child. Sure it would suck, a lot, and dying is terrible, but do you people have no sense of giving your lives for the next generation? It seems so biologically and societally ingrained into me that the survival of children > *

    Maybe it's a woman thing or maybe you're all cold-blooded child murders. I dunno.

    Current generation>Future generation

    Not really, no.

    Perhaps societally not but i like living, to begin with we are not talking about a boat with the last 100 people in the world on it, in which case such a conversation would go quite differently. Were talking about a boat where the existence or non existence, in the larger scale, of the people on board wont have any bearing on the future of society (i am aware some child could cure cancer but lets leave hypotheticals out of it for want of a discussion). Personally, and perhaps this is cold to some of you, i just have a very survival driven approach to this, also a very real fear of painful death. Again if we introduced a variable like "everyone who stays behidn gets suicide pills...quick acting" we may have a different conversation. But taking the situation as is, a boat, with people, people will drown, only few can survive im hauling my ass on that boat by any means necessary. I dont for a moment consider it child murder, i consider it the will to survive and the lack of want to die. And i would feel equally bad for the grown men and women who were left behind as i would the children, i dont honestly get why children seem to be gratis in these conversations, but perhaps thats because i dont feel any real affinity towards them.

    Zombie Monkey on
    League of Legends - Enzo III
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    BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I was just thinking about the kid angle and one thing that struck me is the element of choice. Presumably, each adult on board is there of their own volition, while the same can hardly be said of the children. To me it just seems grossly unfair for a child to die in that situation.

    Bama on
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    Zombie MonkeyZombie Monkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Dont see how thats necessarily unfair, they dont choose because they cant choose, their being on the boat is as inevitable as the people on the board who did choose. And also no-one goes on a boat for it to wreck, the situation is unfair one could say.

    Zombie Monkey on
    League of Legends - Enzo III
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Everybody is afraid of a painful death, it's kind of universal.

    And yes, if someone takes the theoretical spot on the lifeboat they deprived someone else of that and at least indirectly (but really, not very indirectly) killed people by so doing. That's something the survivor in question would have to live with.

    Duffel on
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    Zombie MonkeyZombie Monkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    Everybody is afraid of a painful death, it's kind of universal.

    And yes, if someone takes the theoretical spot on the lifeboat they deprived someone else of that and at least indirectly (but really, not very indirectly) killed people by so doing. That's something the survivor in question would have to live with.

    My point was its not cold blooded murder, if it was then whoever takes the place is a murdered, or in the event of a child manslaughter

    Id see him tried as an adult damn it :x:x:x

    Zombie Monkey on
    League of Legends - Enzo III
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    What?

    Duffel on
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2009
    Survival of the fittest people, if you can't kill enough people to get on the boat, you don't deserve the spot.

    DarkWarrior on
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    Zombie MonkeyZombie Monkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    What?

    Asiina equivocated choosing a space over a child as cold blooded murder, i take issue with this

    Zombie Monkey on
    League of Legends - Enzo III
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    BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Dont see how thats necessarily unfair, they dont choose because they cant choose, their being on the boat is as inevitable as the people on the board who did choose.
    Is this some kinda assertion of Determinism/Fatalism/etc?

    Bama on
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    Zombie MonkeyZombie Monkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    Dont see how thats necessarily unfair, they dont choose because they cant choose, their being on the boat is as inevitable as the people on the board who did choose.
    Is this some kinda assertion of Determinism/Fatalism/etc?

    Not really, im just refuting the "they deserve to go because they didnt have a choice" you can call it determinism if you like but their absence of choice is necessary, no-one forced them on the boat (im being vague and talking in generalisations i know) they were led their by their parents. If it was a slave who was forced on board by his captor thats a different issue.

    Zombie Monkey on
    League of Legends - Enzo III
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    AsiinaAsiina ... WaterlooRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    What?

    Asiina equivocated choosing a space over a child as cold blooded murder, i take issue with this

    I was mostly kidding, but I still think that instinctively we should protect our (society's) children first. Are you saying you feel no biological connection to children? No feelings that their safety is above your own? I really can't understand this.

    Asiina on
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    BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Well I didn't want to get into analogies, but here we go. If a parent picks the kids up from school after knocking back a few and wraps the car around a tree, is it really fair to the kids that they were killed? I mean, they weren't dragged to the car in chains, or at gunpoint.

    Bama on
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    Zombie MonkeyZombie Monkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Asiina wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    What?

    Asiina equivocated choosing a space over a child as cold blooded murder, i take issue with this

    I was mostly kidding, but I still think that instinctively we should protect our (society's) children first. Are you saying you feel no biological connection to children? No feelings that their safety is above your own? I really can't understand this.

    I have never liked, understood or cared for children, im 22 so honestly i expect this to change someday, but honestly im telling the truth. On a much wider point since society for me ends when i die im not too fussed about human expansion or "future generations" again perhaps this will change, i can only say what i feel currently. Having said that i posted the caveat before than were it a family memebr i would give them my space. Also to qualify if i saw a kid getting beat up or child abuse id stop it, im not made of stone

    Zombie Monkey on
    League of Legends - Enzo III
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    HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    If men and women are equal, why am I always helping women open jars?

    Am I sexist for doing so?

    Or is it the plain and simple fact that men and women have a tendency to be DIFFERENT, as opposed to IDENTICAL. Those differences are often exaggerated in cultural stereotypes which lead to situations that are inherently and unfairly sexist. They also hamper the belief in potential. For example, there are women out there, I'm sure, who are better at opening jars than me, but in general I open jars better than women I've know and lived with. Does the fact that I generally open jars better than these women mean I should assume that women cannot open jars? No. Those assumptions lead to sexism.

    What's needed is a definition of gender equality that does not assume that women and men are identical, and focuses instead of disposing of pre-existing stereotypes in favor of open-mindedness. This would cover all of the systemic and cultural gender issues we currently have, while at the same time letting me open jars without feeling like a chauvinist.

    Heartlash on
    My indie mobile gaming studio: Elder Aeons
    Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
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    BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    If men and women are equal, why am I always helping women open jars?

    Am I sexist for doing so?
    Would you help a man open a jar? Yes? Not sexist.

    I don't think anyone is saying that everyone is identical. It's just that making these kind of inferences based on gender/sex is stupid.

    Bama on
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    never dienever die Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    About the child thing, I think this was said before, but for me, personally, I couldn't choose myself over a child. I couldn't live with the guilt of knowing I chose myself over a child. it might seem stupid to other people, but I would rather die than live the rest of my life wishing I was dead.

    never die on
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    DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    If men and women are equal, why am I always helping women open jars?

    Am I sexist for doing so?

    Or is it the plain and simple fact that men and women have a tendency to be DIFFERENT, as opposed to IDENTICAL. Those differences are often exaggerated in cultural stereotypes which lead to situations that are inherently and unfairly sexist. They also hamper the belief in potential. For example, there are women out there, I'm sure, who are better at opening jars than me, but in general I open jars better than women I've know and lived with. Does the fact that I generally open jars better than these women mean I should assume that women cannot open jars? No. Those assumptions lead to sexism.

    What's needed is a definition of gender equality that does not assume that women and men are identical, and focuses instead of disposing of pre-existing stereotypes in favor of open-mindedness. This would cover all of the systemic and cultural gender issues we currently have, while at the same time letting me open jars without feeling like a chauvinist.

    You know the can openers that just poke a hole in the top of the can?
    You can use those on the edge of a jar to let air into the jar breaking the suction without damaging the lid. Technology, opening jars for one and all!

    Dman on
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    Zombie MonkeyZombie Monkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    So do you think im a monster that i believe whole heartedly i could live with the knowledge? I dont think its noble to give your spot up, i think actually its rather stupid

    Zombie Monkey on
    League of Legends - Enzo III
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    If men and women are equal, why am I always helping women open jars?

    Am I sexist for doing so?
    Would you help a man open a jar?

    Of course not, I don't want to fuck a man, I'm straight and tough and manly.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    So do you think im a monster that i believe whole heartedly i could live with the knowledge? I dont think its noble to give your spot up, i think actually its rather stupid
    You are, at best, a coward.

    Bama on
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    So do you think im a monster that i believe whole heartedly i could live with the knowledge? I dont think its noble to give your spot up, i think actually its rather stupid
    I wouldn't call you a monster but it's very definitely self-centered and kind of cowardly, not admirable to say the least

    I'm not going to say anything for someone trying to survive but when you say "oh well I could deal with it" that strikes me as extremely selfish.

    Duffel on
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    HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    If men and women are equal, why am I always helping women open jars?

    Am I sexist for doing so?
    Would you help a man open a jar? Yes? Not sexist.

    I don't think anyone is saying that everyone is identical. It's just that making these kind of inferences based on gender/sex is stupid.

    I'm going to be completely, openly honest having given thought to that scenario.

    I would help a man, yes. But if it were a jar I opened easily I would give him a lot of facetious shit for it. It may be a bit horrible, but it would be funny. I would not give a woman said shit, as I open such jars frequently.

    It's arguably a bit sexist, but I just can't help but honestly imagine myself doing it.

    I've honestly never had the above situation happen (as in, never had a man ask me to open a jar that I then proceeded to open easily).

    Heartlash on
    My indie mobile gaming studio: Elder Aeons
    Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
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    iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    So do you think im a monster that i believe whole heartedly i could live with the knowledge? I dont think its noble to give your spot up, i think actually its rather stupid
    You are, at best, a coward.
    I was trying to come up with something other than "monster", and this is mostly perfect. :^:

    iTunesIsEvil on
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    SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    If men and women are equal, why am I always helping women open jars?

    Am I sexist for doing so?

    Or is it the plain and simple fact that men and women have a tendency to be DIFFERENT, as opposed to IDENTICAL. Those differences are often exaggerated in cultural stereotypes which lead to situations that are inherently and unfairly sexist. They also hamper the belief in potential. For example, there are women out there, I'm sure, who are better at opening jars than me, but in general I open jars better than women I've know and lived with. Does the fact that I generally open jars better than these women mean I should assume that women cannot open jars? No. Those assumptions lead to sexism.

    What's needed is a definition of gender equality that does not assume that women and men are identical, and focuses instead of disposing of pre-existing stereotypes in favor of open-mindedness. This would cover all of the systemic and cultural gender issues we currently have, while at the same time letting me open jars without feeling like a chauvinist.

    Perhaps you could just be "the Jar guy." And people far and wide could come to you, their glass encased pickles, their unopened peanut butter, that chocolate syrup old people buy... all clutched in their hands. They will come from far and near, making a pilgrimage to you, so that you might shew favor on them, and open their jars with your mighty hands...

    Jars as a whole seem fairly gender neutral... I have opened jars for women and some have opened jars for me. I think one of the things that has gotten me through life is something my grandfather told me on his deathbed... he said "Sentry... whether or not you can open a jar has nothing to do with gender, but more to do with how tightly the company that packaged the jar closed the lid."

    I never forgot that...

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
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    AsiinaAsiina ... WaterlooRegistered User regular
    edited March 2009
    So do you think im a monster that i believe whole heartedly i could live with the knowledge? I dont think its noble to give your spot up, i think actually its rather stupid

    Honestly? Yah. I mean if there are spaces and you're not going to get in the damn boat because it's your job as a man to go down with the ship, well, enjoy drowning loser. But if you actively take a spot from a child knowing that child is going to die and you feel no extra remorse about it then yes, I'll think you're a monster.

    On a lighter note, how do people still not know how to open jars? Hit the edge with a knife to break the seal and jars will open like that. I don't need big burly men! I have an understanding of physics.

    Asiina on
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    Zombie MonkeyZombie Monkey Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    So do you think im a monster that i believe whole heartedly i could live with the knowledge? I dont think its noble to give your spot up, i think actually its rather stupid
    You are, at best, a coward.

    I do not lack courage and im not easily intimidated, however if im a coward for not wanting to die a horrible slow death, or for choosing life over that death then paint me one. Better an alive coward than a smug dead man.

    Zombie Monkey on
    League of Legends - Enzo III
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    BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    Heartlash wrote: »
    if it were a jar I opened easily I would give him a lot of facetious shit for it.

    I've honestly... never had a man ask me to open a jar that I then proceeded to open easily.
    I think these might be related. :P

    I give people shit any time that happens. I'm an equal-opportunity jerk.

    Bama on
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    never dienever die Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    So do you think im a monster that i believe whole heartedly i could live with the knowledge? I dont think its noble to give your spot up, i think actually its rather stupid

    I wouldn't think you are a monster, as I dunno your situation. I would think you are selfish though.

    never die on
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    iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    edited March 2009
    I'm pretty comfortable saying that if this were the actual situation in which passengers were trying to fit into a limited number of lifeboats that someone, or some one's, would rip Zombie out of that lifeboat to put another child or two in it. And I cannot explain why, it's probably one of those "'cuz society programmed you that way, you sheeple" things, but I can't help but think that'd be the right course of action. :|

    iTunesIsEvil on
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