The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
If the draft ever got reinstated, should women be included?
Zombie Monkey
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
While doing some International law work, i came across a book which goes into some heavy detail on womens involvement in warfare and how its developed over the past century.
While perusing i came across this little discussion topic in one of the final chapters and thought id pose the question to you fine gentelmen, and ladies.
Of course the best place to start is the beacon of the uninformed yahoo answers
Well im sold, clear, concise and not a hint of sarcasm to be found, but just so we round out the argument i would like to hear some of your beliefs
D&D enlighten...
(My personal belief is yes they should be drafted)
While perusing i came across this little discussion topic in one of the final chapters and thought id pose the question to you fine gentelmen, and ladies.
Of course the best place to start is the beacon of the uninformed yahoo answers
"Women should NOT be drafted for the following reasons:
1) If all adults are on the battlefield, no one is minding the children or the homeland.
2) Men would become overly protective of the women, especially if a relationship begins, and be distracted from tasks at hand.
3) If bunked together the men and women would be prone to sex. This would, undoubtedly, lead to unwanted pregnancies and coat-hanger abortions.
4) Funding would increase dramatically.
5) If a man is captured he is prone to physical abuse and death. If a woman is captured she is prone to physical abuse, death, and rape, (even gang rapes).
6) One man can impregnate many women, but one women can only be impregnated once at a time. A diminishing of women would mean a diminishing of population.
7) Men can go months without sickness, but women are guaranteed to be ill, at least, once a month. The higher percentage of women in the force, the less reliable the health of the force is.
Many nations have, at one time, allowed women in combat. All but Israel have banned this for the listed reasons and more."
Well im sold, clear, concise and not a hint of sarcasm to be found, but just so we round out the argument i would like to hear some of your beliefs
D&D enlighten...
(My personal belief is yes they should be drafted)
League of Legends - Enzo III
Zombie Monkey on
0
Posts
2) ah, the "men are morons" idea. Solid logic, there.
3) ah, the "everyone's a moron" idea, coupled with "birth control doesn't exist and neither do doctors". roffles!
4) funding of what now?
5) If you think men in captivity don't get sexually abused you are hopelessly naive.
6) Ah, the "humans are cattle" argument. lovely.
7) Man what?
Did ege write that list?
And yes, drafts should encompass all adults fit to serve.
gotta give the man props for counting to 7
Anyways, yes women should be drafted
Also, the military should change their goddamn APFT standards to make them the same for women as for men and allow females to be in combat MOSes
?
As for #2, the men become overly protective of each other because of the brother-like bond that usually develops anyways.
So, just like every other sphere of life, then?
Well, wait, no, I manage to get through my non-gender segregated life with a minimum of drama, even when living and working in close quarters with *gasp* boys! so I'm going to go right ahead and suggest that if what you say is true, then the bar is set way too low for acceptable behaviour in the military.
No kidding. That double standard is what creates 90% of the drama surrounding this issue as it applies to the US (other armies don't pull that nonsense, with the fitness standards at least).
For the Army it's the APFT, or Army Physical Fitness Test
You're tested on three areas: how many push-ups you can do in two minutes, how many sit-ups in two minutes, and how fast you can run two miles
The determinate for minimum to pass the APFT is based on two main factors: gender and age (you must pass all three portions to pass the APFT)
For instance, I'm an 18-year old male (highest combination of standards) and I must do 42 push-ups, 53 sit-ups, and a 15:54 2 mile run. For an 18-year old female it's 19 push-ups, 53 sit-ups, and 18:54 two mile times. That's fucking laughable, if you can't do 19 sit-ups in a row you're fucking useless and shouldn't be in the military, and 18:54 two mile is fucking...it's walking
This extrapolation of lowered standards for our fitness tests extrapolates to how females are treated at PT. Not much is expected of a female at PT so they take advantage by shamming or not going
To be fair, there are just as many males who cheat the system via profiles/not giving a shit but raising standards for females could help the problem
MOS is your Military Occupational Speciality, or job
Females aren't allowed to have any combat MOS's. At all. No infantry, artillery, special forces, etc. Just can't be those jobs (the Army is using the excuse that females aren't as physically capable as males, which is kind of bullshit. Making our APFT equivocable does a lot to prove that belief wrong)
To be fair, any needless male-female drama would probably just replace some of the needless male-male drama that tends to get started.
Personally, as someone who has spent time in an armed force that drafts men but allows females to join, I found that the presence of female personnel was benefitial to both unit moral and as a way to help shortcircuit the feedback loop of stupid that has a way of manifesting itself when you throw twenty 18-20 year old guys together.
well thats a bit shit, should be more like Israel, hardcore female recruits
In any case the problem is endemic to lowered standards, definitely and I completely agree with you. Just, however, from my experience an all-male unit has a lot less personal problems and bullshit like adultery and pregnancies that a co-ed one
Again, I'm not saying that the solution is to disallow females from joining, or to disallow females from the draft, I'm just saying that I could kind of see the reasoning behind it if one were against females being drafted on those reasons alone. That still, in itself, is nowhere near enough of a reason to disallow the draft for females, however
For the men who get chosen, it's compulsory. But women volunteer for the army, and it works out fine because that way you generally only the get the butch women who can actually do well within the army.
My friend is in the Norwegian Army (he wasn't conscripted, he volunteered) and is currently serving in the Royal Guard and I can't tell you how much he hates women being allowed into the army.
He says that for every able woman there are 10 utterly useless, whining girls. He said he'd rather exclude the few useful women in the army and at the same time lose the abundant useless girls than having to keep on the capable women but at the same time the useless girls.
It's retarded because they have these Affirmative Action-esque laws in Norway with regards to women, where apparenly for every 3 or 4 men there have to be at least 1 woman. And he claims they just don't work, because the women he serves with usually end up complaining about their cramps every month and sit down and cry when they can't hike anymore or are too tired to carry on.
He told me that no-one in his platoon wants to be paired up with the women because they're of no help and are in fact more of a hindrance in training excercises. He said that the difference between the men and the women in the army are that if a man is exhausted or his morale is low, he'll collapse but that the others or the sergeant can go to him, cuff him around the head and tell him to man the fuck up and get on with it. But with the girls, they sit down and they cry. And then cry some more, and the Sergeant can't really do anything about it because then it would assault or harrassment.
If what he's told me is really the case, I think that's bang out of order. If anything, they'd definitely have to tighten the selection process in Norway so that only the women who are really cut out for it can get in and not just girls looking for something exciting to do for a few months.
I mean, in my personal opinion, I don't really care. I'm from Denmark. No-one's going to invade us and we're not going to invade anyone, so for all I cared they could just abolish the army and use the funding on something better. That's not to say that I think women should be selected willy-nilly simply for the reason that they're women, of course not, but I seem to recall the USSR had a crack squadron of women snipers during WWII that killed loads of German soldiers so it's not like women can't do it.
I think the draft should cover women, but at the same physical standards.
I regularly have to live with co-workers in remote locations. I'm sticking with 'low standards'. To soften the blow, I have the same low opinion of the behavioural indulgences extended to athletes and entertainers, because I see where it leads every time I pick up a newspaper. Adding expensive weaponry into that mix seems... ill-advised.
coo'
That said, I imagine the performance of drafted women would be even worse than the performance of the drafted men. Therefore, unless we are really desperate, women should not be drafted into an army. This isn't about making everything nice and equal and fair, it's about getting shit done and not wasting fucking time with shitty soldiers or military personnel.
Fucking dumbass
I do find it interesting that in your world, there are no idiotic useless men. And when I say interesting I mean bigoted and blinkered. Idiot.
Why?
The amount of times a girl would go to the nurse or head-teacher etc. and ask to go home because of "cramps" and "period headaches" in my last 2 schools were pretty ridiculous. But I never really hear adult women complaining of it nearly as much as the girls in my school, so I don't think it's really a valid reason.
Shut the fuck up you have no idea what you're talking about
Why not?
I think equal opportunity mandating a certain percentage of the military being females is a terribad idea, however
As much as this is going to be a waste of time. Burden of proof motherfucker, do you speak it?
Pardon?
I'm sorry, but it seems to me you just called me a bigoted idiot for no apparent reason. A tad over-aggressive are we perhaps?
I think you'll find if you actually read my post properly rather than just jumping to some retraded conclusion about me being a mysogynist, that I was posting about what MY FRIEND IN THE NORWEGIAN ARMY thought. He never mentioned anything about the men. So how would I know about the men in the Norwegian army? I'm Danish and not even in the army, so I can't really comment on whether what he said is true or not, I just relayed his feelings since I deemed it appropriate in a thread this.
Chill out for Christs' sake. Also, I think you'll find there's a distinct lack of an "h" in my name. I haven't mispellt "Christ". Cristo means Christ in Latin, just a little fyi since a lot of people get my name wrong.
You've already trolled one gender thread this week. Quit while you're ahead. The rest of you ignore him.
Because the average women who, ill grant, may not have the physical capacity of the average man, can still be of great use perhaps outside of combat where intellectually, they can provide support and work behind the scenes. This is not to say that women cant be on the frontlines, they can, but theres no justification to say that in the army the average woman could not be as useful as the average man.
Like the amount of stupidity you're espousing is amazing
Like truly staggering
Seriously. If you have to recruit on any factor other than ability to do the job, fail will happen.
Do I really need a reason? I simply believe women have been conditioned to be fucking pussies under a lot of stressful conditions they would encounter in war. Sure, there are many men who are also pussies, but the man-up culture is there to support them.
It's ok if you disagree man. There's no need to be outraged over what one guy believes on the internet.
No, you've done this kind of thing before, and then you followed it up with some really stupid bullshit about how teenagers must be faking cramps whenever they ask for an ibuprofen and a lie-down, so I think I'm going to go right on ahead and keep calling you out until you stop posting stupid things.
And don't go "lawl AA" at me. Quotas were never a mandated part of AA in the US.
Drafted military females?
I'm not talking about volunteers man. I've basically already said volunteer people are self motivated to perform well, both men and women.
Seriously, take time to understand what I'm actually saying before you get all up in arms about it.
O_o O_o
Are you...are you fucking serious
I've never heard of quotas for specific minorities to be represented in the military, and I'm of the belief that here in America we don't do that
So I was saying like if Norway does that, that's really fucking dumb
Please don't hurt me... >.> <.<
That's because menstrual cramps tend to diminish with age. So no, not all high school girls were faking it for attention, it actually gets easier over time.
In any case, I don't think women should be drafted cause I don't want to go. Is that a good enough reason?
This bears further, less subtle emphasis.
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.